Talk: Old God

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On Tirisfal Glades

You know, I just noticed something rather interesting. In the Wrath of the Lich King trailer, we hear the words of King Terenas, telling Arthas that the day he was born, the very forests of Lordaeron whispered, "Arthas". The wording of this is kind of interesting, as "whispering" is the main way that the Old Gods seem to communicate with the mortal races. It's also notable that the high elves who settled in the area were "driven mad by whispers", and that the "very land was corrupt". It could be that the Old Gods may have had some small role in Arthas' eventual insanity. I know it's not very likely, and that trailers aren't really considered a source of lore, but it's some food for thought. :p Vandaeni 6:27 PM EST 5 Dec 2008

Well there is some truth to that, because after all Arthas faced one down in the lower kingdom (we believe). But the whispering could also be a word of speech.Gorvar (talk) 09:56, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Naga and the Old Gods

"Many of the Highborne were transformed into the Naga, who serve the Old Gods still." Where does this connection come from? The Naga were created from the Highborne elves by the destruction of the Well of Eternity according to the official lore. Where is the connection to the Old Gods mentioned? --Fandyllic 5:34 PM PST 29 Mar 2006

Okay I did some research and it looks like Blizzard left out some of the Naga lore on the worldofwarcraft.com site and it was filled in by the books.

From Richard A. Knaak Q&A Interview Part 2 - War of the Ancients Trilogy on BlizzPlanet.com:

2. There seems to be some confusion among fans. In the Lore forums, the discussion is whether Azshara struck a bargain with the Old gods or not. Whether the Old gods turned Azshara and her highborne into Naga, as their new servants.

Knaak: Yes, it was decided by Blizzard that the Old Gods were the reason for Azshara and her ilk becoming Naga. They wanted to tie the Old Gods in, better to the world.

So the implication is that the Naga owe the Old Gods for helping them survive the Great Sundering and the Maelstrom. --Fandyllic 5:48 PM PST 29 Mar 2006

Personally, I'm expecting some Dagon-type[1][2] of Old God to appear in reference to this. Possibly as a post-Cataclysm patch just like Ulduar was sometime after WOTLK's initial release. Metalmunki (talk) 00:03, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

Sulfuron

Sulfuron is not an Old God. It's Ragnaros personal fortress in fire part of the elemental plan as said by Sainterre (blizzard french localisation). http://forums-fr.wow-europe.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-localisation-fr&t=14492 --Atanor 04:40, 31 Jan 2006 (EST)

He's right: "Sulfuron is not a being, but a place. It's the personnal stronghold of Ragnaros in the fire elemental plan" --Veher18 21:28, 03 Feb 2006 (EST)

The Misplaced One

I always thought, that there were originally five. Three were imprisoned, one felt in Darkshore and one, C'Thun, was thought to be fallen, but still lives. So there is no "Misplaced One"

--LemonBaby 17:08, 3 Feb 2006 (MEZ)

It is possible that only five is originally known of, and it is planned that more unknown Old Gods will show up. It's unlikely, but possible. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Spoegefugl (talk · contr). 10:00, August 6, 2010

The Origin of the Silithid and Qiraji

This section needs to be updated with new info from Lands of Mystery-Baggins 08:06, 11 April 2006 (EDT)

Deathwing and the Black Dragonflight

Are the black dragons still under the influence of the old gods? Or was their influence broken when the Demon Soul was destroyed? If so, then the dragons should have regained their sanity...

The Black dragons weren't under the spell of the old Gods per se, it was mostly Deathwing who was 'corrupted'. During the events of the War of the Ancients those voices 'betrayed' Deathwing by telling him not to grab the Demon soul since it was vital to summon the old Gods into the world.Gorvar (talk) 09:58, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Old Gods before the Titans

Supposedly, the Old Gods were not always old. Were they called anything different while they were still running the world?

yes, they were called the Gods--Truckman1 15:26, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

...what?

Ok, the Old Gods did NOT create the Burning Legion. Maybe they took advantage of the First Invasion, but that's very different. Also, the Forgotten One that Arthas and Anub'Arak fought hasn't been confirmed as an Old God yet. Most likely it's related in some way to C'thun or one of the other Old Gods, but I doubt it's actually an Old God. Finally, what's all this mishmash about invading Nozdormu's realm? I assume that comes from the alternate timeline in one of those book type things, which I haven't read, and thus can't assurt any amount of authority over. So I'm leaving that in. But I'm taking out the other stuff I mentioned. --Mikaka 13:50, 16 December 2006 (EST)

The Forgotten one was implied to be an Old God in Lands of Mystery, IIRC.Baggins 13:59, 16 December 2006 (EST)

Don't be so hasty, Blizzard can still make "the Forgotten One" the sixth Old God, unknown before, or one of the three left alive. Or sixth, unknown before, now dead, Old God. :) Anything is possible until the release of the official lore. --Sul'jin 06:23, 4 January 2007 (EST)

There's also the possibility that it was a "piece" of an Old God - this is a theory I've hard discussed, that the Old Gods were able to leak out pieces of themselves into the mortal realm, physical manifestations of themselves, as it were, but not the Old God himself.

Wait... but that could mean C'Thun was never actually defeated in the first place... *gasp*

~ Peregrine

Elementals and the Old Gods

As we know, the Elementals are controlled by Old Gods. Each 4 Elementals (fire, water, wind, earth) have only 1 leader, but there are (were) 5 Old Gods, and they were unified. So with only 1 Elemental Lord for each Elemental, each Old Gods must have controlled 1 Elementals only, right?(Do you understand?) Means that 4 Old Gods control 4 Elementals (each Old God control 1, as I said), but that leave 1 poor Old Gods didn't control anything! As unified being, they should destroy each other, and the weak one(that didn't control anything) should have been destroyed by other Old Gods, right? Or could it be that there is 5th Elemental that controlled by this Old Gods? Or each Old God control more than 1 Elemental(If it's true then each Elemental will have more than 1 Elemental Lord, its funny to think Ragnaros has a rival)? Or this Old God is the leader of the Old Gods(well, they're unified)? Or what? --Malygos 03:56, 4 January 2007 (EST)

I believe it has been hinted that all the Old Gods could control all 4 elementals. They shared control.Baggins 04:00, 4 January 2007 (EST)

They had greater issues to deal with than "who is going to control the elementals now". It didn't matter, they were unified, they had the same purpose, so it didn't really matter. --Sul'jin 07:34, 4 January 2007 (EST)

Yeah, they were too busy with their war of cosmic proportions to whine about whose turn it was to command the forces of evil :)

~ Peregrine

I feel your basing your statments on asumtions on the WoW univers. First of there has never been stated what can and can not been seen as a Element. Maybe the Light and Shadow powers of the univers are just as much a element of the world.

And life and death most, I think, be seen as magical elements in any case.

Second of to asume that the Old Gods where united or fighting one another is... Well rather big step if you ask me. I mean if they are unified how can we guess how they think? But then agen what do I know...

And third, Im not sure the Old God can be dissmissed as just evil. I think there fare more complicated. --Burgrsch 10:47, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Deletion

Discuss deletions, or tag items with the {{fact}} tag.--Sky 03:43, 23 January 2007 (EST)

doesn't it already say that one god was killed in the beginning of the article. why is is being repeated then. Noman953 03:46, 23 January 2007

Thanks for clarifying. Can you add a note at the history screen next time you delete something? xD --Sky 03:48, 23 January 2007 (EST)

More Old Gods?

In TBC, there's a quest in Shadowmoon valley which will have you stop those Dark Conclave guys' summoning ritual. Apparently what they're summoning is using the C'thun's model, and it's a "Summoned Old God". See the links below(Thank Yub on SoL): [3] (Scroll down and see) [4] (The quest) --Xlandhenry 03:13, 3 February 2007 (EST)

It was a last ditch effort to stop Gul'Dan. The draenei were not the only ones getting killed by the orcs. The Dark Conclave was formed to stop the Hand from being formed... and failed. They now exist in undeath continueing the ritual. This old god being summoned into Outland may have something to do with Anzu.--SWM2448 19:28, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Strength

How strong are the Old Gods in comparison to the Titans, it is stated that the battle between the Old Gods and the Titans took "eons", and that C'thun himself managed to kill one of the Titans, although the question I would want to see answer the most is, how would Sargeras compare to the Old Gods, a freind of mine says there was a mention about his strength in relation to them in the "war of the ancients" trilogy, and that if all of the remaining old gods returned, that even Sargeras would "beg for death" as my friend put it. Hordesupporter 03:08, 5 February 2007 (EST)

Hmmm... But C'thun was killed during the second War of the Shifting Sands by Alliance and horde warriors. Forgotten One may be an Old God because of his control over the Faceless Ones and his similiarity to C'thun. He was killed by Undead. So, different sources give different explanation to it. I join to your request to WoWWiki. WoWWiki memebers, please say what do you think about it! (I'm not from English-speaking land, please correct my mistakes in articles that can occur) Mardook 12 February 2007

In all of the cases mentions (C'Thun killed/imprisoned in the War of the Shifting Sands, Arthas killing the Forgotten One and players killing C'Thun), the Old Gods in question (assuming the Forgotten One is an Old God) were in a regenerative state, having been weakened by some previous conflict, and were just making their way back onto the world stage. It isn't quite clear, then, how strong they would be at full power. However, given the pre-historic lore about the Titans, it's safe to say that the Old Gods gave them a rough time, at the very least. Sargeras is only one Titan, so a plethora of Old Gods might prove difficult for him personally. User:Montag/sig 09:37, 12 February 2007 (EST)

Ok. For example, lore mentions that Titans attacked each single Old God together by combined power ad that just one Old God was completely killed, but it was mentioned that it was killed in face-to-face combat with the Titan. And i have another question. In this article was written that 3 imprisoned Old Gods (presumed Old Gods under the Maelstorm, in Tirisfal Glades and the Forgotten One) I quoting: "corrupted some of the Highborne, and used them to lure the Burning Legion to Azeroth" and "invaded Nozdormu's realm and managed to open a rift in time, that, as they had planned, tossed some beings back through time, beings that would change the way the war of the ancients took place, and give Sargeras a new chance to enter the world, and therefore them a new chance to set themselves free. Their plans were although again crushed by the very same Malfurion Stormrage". May be Xavius' (who seems to make first contact to Sargeras before other Highborne in both War of the Ancients timelines) contact to Sargeras was arranged by the Old Gods? And, if the Sargeras' entering to Azeroth was profitable to Old Gods in reason that destruction of Azeroth could return this world into its primitive chaotic state (as it was befor creation of it by the Titans) that could set them free, could Sargeras and the Burning Legion stop or defeat the Old Gods (if they will be setted free they will not be in their weakened state)? Please, answer this questions. I have edited this article and the article about Old Gods speculations. Thanks to Montag. Check my changings for the number of the gramar errors Mardook 12 February 2007

I will leave those questions in more formidable hands, mainly Ragestorm's -- the head Bookkeeper. My lore skill isn't high enough yet. User:Montag/sig 18:49, 12 February 2007 (EST)

We know that most, if not all, of the War of the Ancients was orchestrated by the Three. Whether or not they actually organized Sargeras's contact is unknown. Knaak (who appears to be writing under the assumption that there are Three Old Gods in total) suggests that the power of the Old Gods can be defeated with relative ease by the combined power of all five Aspects, who are extensions of the four most power titans. This would mean that the Pantheon was able to subdue them with relative ease. Krasus mentions that "should the Three be unleased, even the Legion's master will be hard-pressed to stop them," implying that Sargeras could theoretically defeat them, but with difficulty. WIth the full force of the Leigon behind him, the battle would probably be made somewhat easier. I don't ever recall a "beg for death" statement. I'm separated from my books at the moment, but I can give citations by next week, if needed

A few things I want to make perfectly clear:

• 1) there is no documented association between the Old Gods and the Faceless Ones beyond the Forgotten One, which leads me to
• 2) to my eyes, the Forgotten One resembles C'Thun about as much as a [human] resembles a [Howler Monkey]. I do not accept this as viable evidence to suggest that the Forgotten One is an Old God.
• 3) not as loud, but a minor note: the number of the Old Gods is unclear- though most sources put it at five, Knaak says three. This is taken to mean that three continue working together, one is C'Thun, and one is dead. It is also mentioned (though I have not heard the dialog myself) that one of the Three, or else the dead one, is behind the Nghtmare.

Did that answer your question?-_Ragestorm (talk · contr) 15:11, 13 February 2007 (EST)

Do you think the Forgotten One is somehow related to the Old Gods, then? Perhaps, a baby Old God, or one of their race that never reached the same strength as the more powerful Old Gods? User:Montag/sig 16:06, 13 February 2007 (EST)

It's possible, I admit that, but my point was that the evidence everyone uses is just not viable- the entire association between the Old Gods, Hakkar, and the Faceless is based on one person squinting at the Forgotten and C'Thun.

SInce the Old Gods are actual gods and not godlike beings (ie, the titans), I don't think it's a "same race" sort of relationship, but perhaps (given the Nerubians' evolutionary path) an extension of C'Thun, or a golem made in his image. Exactly where the Faceless Ones come in, however, I'm not certain.-_Ragestorm (talk · contr) 16:30, 13 February 2007 (EST)

I would agrue that the Old Gods are not actually gods in the Elune sense, but more godlike beings in the Titan sense, since they have physical form, can be killed, captured, or controlled (theoretically). User:Montag/sig 16:37, 13 February 2007 (EST)

The Warcraft Encyclopedia implies that C'Thun (and by extension, the rest) is a true god, as is Hakkar. By "implies" I mean that articles are not up yet.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 16:41, 13 February 2007 (EST)

Sargeras would be "hard-pressed"? My freind made the "beg for death" comment after reading the book, he might of misinterpeted Krasus's comment. We really have a difficult time comparing the strength of the old gods to the titans, we know C'thun managed to defeat a titan, although we have never been told whether this was a weak titan or strong titan (by titan standards), C'thun is implied to be in a weakened state but exactly how much of his full power he an use is unknown, presumably if he was at full power he would be stronger then almost all demons, but maybe not Sargeras. Hordesupporter 19:34, 13 February 2007 (EST)

It's an underlying lack of information about just how powerful they are in comparison. Like I said, I can get a citation on Sargeras next week. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 21:55, 13 February 2007 (EST)

"They corrupted some of the Highborne, and used them to lure the Burning Legion to Azeroth. Many of the Highborne were transformed into the Naga, who serve the Old Gods still." What does it mean? Mardook

The Burning Legion is attracted to magic use on a high scale. Thus, in order to lure the Burning Legion to Azeroth to deal with the dragon aspects, the Old Gods corrupted some Highborne so they would use a lot of magic and get the Burning Legion's attention. As the Highborne tried to summon Sargeras into the world, the Well of Eternity exploded, sending many to the bottom of the ocean. There, they were transformed into Naga (presumably by an Old God, though never explicity), and some still serve the Old God(s). User:Montag/sig 09:29, 14 February 2007 (EST)

Something else that was never explicit: it's never clearly said that the Highborne were manipulated into contacting Sargeras. Moreover, no corruption need have occured- it doesn't take a corrupted or evil individual to summon a demon. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 10:01, 14 February 2007 (EST)

Right, although that is the implication of the sentence. User:Montag/sig 15:33, 14 February 2007 (EST)

Old God's having transformed them into naga is explicitly said by the author and also repeated in RPG books if i recall, but could be wrong about that part. --Zealtalkcontrweb 21:34, 14 February 2007 (EST)

Er.. where is that quote even from? :S Don't recall seeing it, and it's new info to me.. so i'm in disbeleif atm. --Zealtalkcontrweb 21:34, 14 February 2007 (EST)

It's part of the article. User:Montag/sig 21:37, 14 February 2007 (EST)

Okay.. and it's source? Because its wrong afaik. :S --Zealtalkcontrweb 22:20, 14 February 2007 (EST)

So wait, if there are 5 Old Gods, and 1 is dead, so that becomes four. C'thun became "free" so that leaves 3 imprisoned. But there are 4 Old God leutenets(ignore my horrible spelling) and none seem to be the same element as C'thun(which element he is, I don't know)This leaves 1 of the leutenets with no Old God to serve. So does the Warcraft World has 5 elements??? EvilSniper

Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Wilds. There aren't actually elemental beings representing Wilds, which is analogous to life, nature, and soul. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 23:21, 5 March 2007 (EST)

What element would C'thun be then? Wilds? Or Earth? Those two seem the most likely... Wait, do the Old Gods have to be connected to the elements at all? User:EvilSniper 22:06, March 12 2007

In The War of the Ancients, Krasus says that if anyone has a chance to stand up against the Old Gods, it would be the Dragon Aspects, thus the reason the old gods divided them. However, from what I have read, it seems that one Old God is more powerful than one Titan. If the Titans gave only part of their power to the Dragon Aspects, they must be weaker than the Titans. How could the five aspects have any chance against the three Old Gods? User:EvilSniper 7:55, May 24, 2007

The fve aspects would have no chance, no chance at all. The Three would destroy them with nothing but a distracted flicker of thought. According to the Sundering (War of the Ancients trilogy) they "ruled over a bloody chaos of which even the lords of the burning legion could not imagine", and that they sought to create "the key that would open the gates of their prison [the demon soul]... and if that happened, even Sargeras would find himself pleading for the peace of death." From passages such as this, we can ascertain that should the Old Gods return, a single titan would be destroyed in an instant... if the Old Gods did not keep him around for their personal pleasure of torturing him.

~ Peregrine

It was from the author's point of view. Think about it, the Titans give the Five Aspects power to protect the world, they will make sure they can handle the Old Gods, also this is the reason Old Gods corrupt Deathwing.

Master3 14:38 Aug 10 2007

I have a question. You guys are mostly talking of the old god's strength combined. "The Three would destroy them with nothing but a distracted flicker of thought." So, what is one old god's strength comparitavly to people like the Pantheon titans, regular titans, etc.?Jclipps 01:52, 13 September 2007 (UTC)Top Gun

One for one the old gods are more powerful than any one of the weaker titans. But compared to Sargeras or the High Father of the Pantheon, one of the more powerful titans, the titans power might prove superior.

• The old gods, like the titans, might overestimate their power. They might genarally belief that they are invincible even though they are defeated by the titans. It did not really took an 'army' of titans to imprison the old god.

• Remember Sargeras is the 'Champion' of the titans. He can very well be the mightiest of them. The old gods had underestimated his powers.

• The dragon mage, Krasus comment in the War of the Ancient Trilogy is his own point of view. He had overestimated the Aspects and the Old Gods powers. Remember he had not battle Sargeras one on one. He did not even have sources on his powers. This is evident one the following comments:

1.) ' Combined, surely all five of the aspects represented a force capable of DEFEATING the elder beings.'-The Sundering Pg 157.

2.) ' Had Krasus sought to strike Sargeras directly, either in the chest or head, the result would have been LAUGHABLE.'-The Sundering Pg 324

To make it clearer, the object mentioned by Krasus that time was the Demon Soul, the object cappableof enslaving ALL dragons save Deathwing.

The Demon Soul had the enchantment of the Old Gods indirectly it seems. The combined power of the Demon Soul cannot hurt Sargeras. By using simple logic, it can be concluded that Sargeras is stronger than a old God even two or three of them.

Of course all the accounts given by Krasus might be false since he had not interacted with either Sargeras or the Old gods.

As mention in the Titans page each titans have a sphere of power. Sargeras's sphere might be Sheer power since vivid accounts are given of how powerful he is. Thats why he is more powerful than the Old Gods.

To sum it up:

Great Titan (eg. Sargeras, High Father) > Old Gods > Dragon Aspects Combined

This is such a confusing subject. I think that there should be one solid answer for what the Old Gods can and cant do. Even in the War of the Ancients Trilogy, Knaack seems to be jumping around with how strong they are. Maybe it was like as someone mentioned earlier that Sargeras, Krasus, and the Old Gods were either under- or over-estimating their own and the others powers so we don't know for certain what each can do. But one example of the jumping around is where it's mentioned (I believe by Sargeras) that if he came into Kalimdor that not all the dragons in the world would be able to stop him. Then Krasus mentions that the combined might of the Aspects should be enough to defeat the Old Gods. Then there are the comments used before by other people like Peregrine that Sargeras was nothing compared to the Old Gods. I think my brain's about to explode trying to sort this out. Jclipps 23:11, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

The problem isn't that Knaak can't decide how strong they are, it's that the characters don't know how strong they are. All of them are using what little information they have to try and make a decision. Sargeras is likely over-confident and arrogant when he claims the Aspects could not defeat him. Similarly, Krasus may be overestimating his race's power when he says the Aspects could defeat the Old Gods. Other characters know different amounts about the Aspects and the Old Gods and come to different conclusions accordingly. Until we get a definitive statement of their power from someone who's in a position to know, we can't make one solid answer about what they can and cannot do. -- Dark T Zeratul 10:36, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Still, the Old Gods must have been a mighty power indeed, to contend with the likes of the Titans, and to pose enough of a threat to create a vast war. ~My rage bar is blue and I start the fight pissed - Peregrine 04:21, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I think what Krasus meant about the aspects being able to defeat the old gods, is that they would be able to stop the old gods plans before they could free themselves. Just my opinion though. JarHed (talk) 20:17, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Remmeber, Krasus himself says that if the old gods break free (i.e. break lose in their real physical forms, unlike C'Thun's or maybe even Yogg-Saron's weakened forms "Sargeras would find himself begging for death." This shows unequivacally that the old gods are stronger than Sargeras. Krasus's comment about the Aspects being a match for the old gods is prefaced with the word 'surely.' "United surely, they were a match for the dread elders." This strikes me as more wishful thinking than any real faith in the validity of his statement.--Darkling235 12:57, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

And where did you see this quote? Because someone (i think it was Ragestorm) showed that Krasus never said that. What he had said was that Sargeras would be hard-pressed to defeat them, meaning he could defeat them. All three. At the same time. At full power. Therefore, he is more powerful than them. I believe that what Krasus meant is that the Dragon Aspects, all five of them together, would be able to defeat each Old God alone. The way I see it, Sargeras is more powerful than all of them, and the Dragon Aspects could team up and pick the Old Gods of one at a time. The Old Gods knew this, and that's why they corrupted Deathwing and possibly Malygos, so that the Dragon Aspects would not be at full power and could not defeat them. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sheffi (talk · contr).

"Hard-pressed to defeat them" doesn't mean "he can defeat them." It means he'd have a hard time defeating them, and makes no suggestion as to whether or not he would actually succeed. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 22:04, July 7, 2010 (UTC)

True, didn't think of that Dark T. However, it still at least implies that he is more powerful than any one Old God. --Sheffi (talk) 22:07, July 7, 2010 (UTC)

4/3 Old Gods alive?

It is possible that the Forgotten one that in Frozen throne you face in Undead Campaign could be an Old God... 1. He bears a STRIKEING Resemblence to C'thun 2. He is beneath the Earth, Old Gods are beneath Earth! 3. He is VERY powerful, and has Tentacles like C'thun So there are currently TWO Old gods still alive, after you Raid and Slaughter C'thun for his Epics! 4 Gods before Arthas, 3 Gods after Arthas, 2 Gods after AQ Opened —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Shiniki (talk · contr).

1. I dont realy like your post its been discuced too many times.
2. You misspelt earth (Earth is a planet earth = soil)
3. I agree with the fact that the forgotten one might be only part of cthun (Maybe it is only its toe unless the old gods have genders then it will be a he/she) --The last Alterac 08:01, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

So? What if the Forgotten One was an Old God? That doesn't mean four were alive before, it means only one is alive now. ~Peregrine - Master Chief FTW! 15:56, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Old Gods Strength

Assuming this is cannon in the War of the Ancients Trilogy, the watching Old Gods are narrated as at least BELIEVING they can swat Sargeras like a fly once he steps through the portal. They back this statement up by mentioning it had taken an army of titans to imprision them last time.

Assuming the book is canon this probably resolves that debate that in their "natural form" (unlike C'thun or maybe the forgotten one), a form the old gods still believe they can recover, the old gods are far more powerful than the Titans, especially since Sargeras before his fall was considered one of their greatest warriors.

It is possible to claim that the reason they are so confident they can defeat Sargeras is because they outnumber him 3 to 1 and were simply of comparable power to him but the actual phrasing they use toward Sargeras is rather contemptuous in the book, implying they think he's nothing compared to them. --Darkling235 15:44, 4 May 2007 (EDT)

Even gods are not above overconfedance?--SWM2448 00:33, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Just because they're omnipotent doesn't mean they're omniscient. It's quite a difference. Pzychotix 02:24, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Lets not forget that C'thun can be killed by 40 men, HOWEVER lets not also forget that he was stricken down and that he is on his last thread from death mustering all his life, He is basically like your old folks who are sitting there in there hospital bed...But following all that the Old Gods have...C'thun was overcome by the Titan who "Killed" him only due to the fact that a level 70 Warrior can infact go down by 15+ level 60 Players...Or after a gate is rammed so much it finally breaks...But lets look at all the things the Old Gods have, Neptulon, Ragnaros...Billions of Elemental Servants...Neptulons Krakens...The Naga...Azshara...

Basically Neptulon is supposed to be very powerful, Same with Azshara...The Numbers at the Old Gods command and infact there own power are far more then we may realize, If one Titan could kill C'thun then thats basically just thwarting the entire war off! Go send 5 Titans and be done with it all...The War was freakin Huge!

And I personally doubt that they planned to "Swat" Sergeras like a fly, Knowing that he is corrupted and was once a very powerful titan...The Old Gods would probably use him, As they tried to use him to break there chains during Azshara's fall via Illidan, He would probably appear in the Elemental Plane...Get mad...Break out somehow or strike a deal with the Old Gods...The Old Gods are cunning and scheming and dont really use brute force...

But seeing that everything that they have is far more then we realize...Millions of Faceless Ones if not billions, Naga, Twilight Hammer Cultist, Dark Iron Dwarves, Elemental Servants, Trillions of Sentient Insectoids, "Creatures" Of the Deep...

Lets look at there big bad people... Themselves alot more where kinda alive when the War took place... Faceless ones ranging from MC Trash in difficulty to Hakkar or beyond... The Naga Queen Azshara, and her matron Lady Vashj, Vashj is not as powerful as Azshara yet she is a BC Raid boss that is very powerful...So Azshara will probably fart and Illidan will blow off into the twisting nether... Illidan, He is more of a 50/50 pawn for them...As he listens to them in the War of the Ancients, Sides with the Naga...etc Neptulon the Tide-Hunter, The power fullest of all the Elemental Lieutenants...With the exception of Ragnaros the Fire-Lord who is easly Downable the Son of the Windseeker Thunderaan is nearly the same power as Ragnaros, So id imagine the Earth and Air Lieutenants are far more powerful then Ragnaros... All of Neptulon's little horrors such as the Kraken and etc...

And even when the future comes there are Billions of Qiraj everywere, Infinite Dragonflight, There numbers are that of the Burning Legion! They probably can beat Sargeras... User:Shiniki/Shiniki

It is not a fact that the Infinite Dragonlfight serves the Old Gods, nobody can identify either their masters or their goals. ~ Peregrine

Well, this doesn't really have to do with the old god's strength, but you gotta remember that when Ragnaros was summoned Shiniki, that his power was greatly depleted, and it is most likely that he's more powerful than the windlord at his full strength. The book im getting this from says that Therazane isn't "far more powerful", only a little bit. Jclipps 01:48, 13 September 2007 (UTC)Top Gun

Sargeras would probably win. Look at what he got:

• Infifnite amount Demon called the Burning Legion that was tested against COUNTLESS worlds?

• Kil'jeaden, the ever sceming one?

• Sargeras himself, Destroyer of the Worlds, Enermy of all Life, Dark Titan !

Sargeras is the champion of the Titans he probably can defeat the Old Gods. And of the Old God really was that powerful and had BILLIONS of minions why not go to conquer other worlds like what Sargeras did?

And INFINITE is a lot lot lot more than simply BILLION. -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tohjohn (talk · contr).

"Kathune" deleted?

Double you tee eff, why was it deleted?

~ Peregrine

"Kathune" is "C'Thun" spelled phonetically, not a separate entity. - Egrem--SWM2448 23:06, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

How do you know this?

~ Peregrine

How do you know that it's a new entity? Secondly, that info isn't released except through WoW Model Viewer, and it's datamined info. Pzychotix 23:40, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't know that it's a new entity, but we don't know that its not either. Should I maybe post that on Old Gods speculation instead of Old Gods?]

~ Peregrine

At the very least, it's a name that's found through datamined methods. Please keep that in mind when posting about stuff you find while you scour the files for information. It's the same reason why Zul'Aman isn't filled with all the info and speculation we find in there. —Pzychotix (talk · contr) 13:40, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Old God in Northrend

http://www.wowinsider.com/2007/08/04/blizzcon-day-2-wow-lore-and-quests-panel-liveblog/

From the Lore and Quests Panel at BlizzCon:

"One of our jobs as adventurers is to explore Ajol;Nerub to see what is there. We will find something bigger and ancient and... ok it's obviously one of the old gods. Ok, we've already let that out of the bag. (laughter)"

This suggests that the Forgotten One fought by Arthas and Anub'arak was probably an Old God after all. Egrem

Yeah, I don't think there's been much doubt about that for a while now. :P I hope we get to fight more than a C'thun clone though. I wonder if the "new" old god will be given a weird name like C'thun or will he just be "The Forgotten One". -- Raze 01:54, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I heard people also using the plural term when speaking of the old gods coming out in the expansion. So, if the forgotten one is to be the old god in Northrend, what of the other one('s)? There have been rumors that the large space on the left side of Tirisfal Glades was actually going to be an instance that led to another old god. Jclipps 01:57, 13 September 2007 (UTC) Top Gun

So far there's been absolutely no hint or suggestion of anything other than the one in Azjol'Nerub. Doesn't look like there'll be others, but hopefully we'll learn more about the other Old Gods in there somewhere. (If Blizzard decides to put some actual story into it!) -- Raze 02:06, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I remember seeing or hearing about how there might be an old god in Tirisfal, but here's what I found: It is possible that one of the imprisoned Old Gods is located beneath the Tirisfal Glades. When the high elves first landed on the Lordaeron continent, they encountered a strange force. Forging inland, the high elves founded a settlement within the tranquil Tirisfal Glades. After a few years, many of them began to go mad. It was theorized that something evil slept beneath that particular part of the world, but the rumors were never proven to be true. Whould you call this a hint or just some creepy thing put down? Jclipps 02:48, 13 September 2007 (UTC) Top Gun

Depends whether or not that line comes from an official source. Some to think of it I may have read something similar to that, though it could have been fan-made. -- Raze 04:35, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

The quote is indeed official. See Tirisfal Grove. User:Kirkburn/Sig3 17:03, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Then I just guess it's up to Blizzard to implement it or not into the game. Jclipps 03:23, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Dangnabit, if Blizzard doesn't go through with The Forgotten One being an Old God by wonderful fanfiction will be a retcon... blast! *shakes fist* ~Peregrine Faithbearer 01:50, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

The Qiraji revere C'thun (and perhaps all his kind) but how do their separated Nerubian cousins feel? It has never been stated, but they seem less like an army bent on wipeing everything out to me.--SWM2448 02:10, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Just thought i'd say, theres an old god in Northrend, by the name of Yogg-saron, responsible for the corruption of Ursoc and the failing of the world tree Vordrassil. Revealed through a quest line in the Grizzly Hills. Rinion87 28 July 2008

I recognized the eye stalks in this screenshot. I found they are mentioned in the Heigan the Unclean article, but couldn't find anything else. I recognized them because they look a lot like these. I'm not familiar with Naxxramas, so are these related to the Old Gods somehow? Retodon8 (talk) 23:36, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Same model, but probably not related. They were in there in the old version of Naxxramas as well. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 05:08, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Those could just be eye stalk creatures that aren't attached to anything larger. Rolandius (talk - contr) 05:14, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Anzu

Can someone who did the druid swift flight form quest chain confirm that Anzu the Raven God has something to do with the Nightmare? A lot of dialog is said in in-game events, not is citeable quest text. From what I gather, the chain involves hunting what sent a raven spirit to attack the druids in Moonglade.--SWM2448 21:20, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

There's nothing much at all about it from NPC dialogue, it's all in the quest chains. Pretty much, Anzu is refered with similar descriptions and titles as Old Godes and you discover he is the one that caused the Nightmare. You eventually kill him with the implication the Nightmare ending. Something not many people realize, pretty much eliminates most Emerald Dream ideas. I've poked Baggins to flesh out the Anzu and Nightmare and ED pages with the info before, but it's not been done yet. All the relevant quest info is however floating around on WW already. -- 

• <imagelink>http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_zeal.png%7CUser:Zeal</imagelink>
• <imagelink>http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_talk.png%7CUser talk:Zeal</imagelink>
• <imagelink>http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_contribs.png%7CSpecial:Contributions/Zeal</imagelink>
• <imagelink>http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_end.png%7CUser:Zeal</imagelink>

  23:27, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

i dont remeber that questline stating anything about anzu being the cause of the nnightmare, from what i can think of or he was of, the nightmare paws, he was corrupted by the nightmare. also what the heck is a self proclaimed raven god from the outlands doing on the emerald dream of azeroth.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ashbear160 (talk · contr).

Are the Old Gods really "that" evil?

Non-editorial Discussion moved to Talk:Old Gods/Analysis. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 04:17, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Any Idea on Their Prison?

This question just occured to me and now I'm really curious. Does it say anywhere what the Old God's prison is? I know they were super weakened, but what would be able to hold them? Surely they would have at least gained some strength back after so many millenia of waiting. Maybe this is just one of those questions that we'll never know, but if anyone has any ideas, speculations, proof, or thoughts on this I would appreciate hearing them. Jclipps 22:52, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

My personal speculation is that they are either contained within the depths of Uldum, or they are held in some sort of inter-dimensional plane locked beneath the earth. ~My rage bar is blue and I start the fight pissed - Peregrine 03:04, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Same, Perhaps that there are portals to the inter-dimensional plane that the Titan's used to lock them away, then sealed the Portal into a backwards fortress filled with guards and other things to keep the portal supressed? --Shiniki 22:28, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I figure there's a few more Uls out there where the rest of them are chained up. Example, not fact ahead: Hidden beneath Tirisfal Glades, in the ancient Titan Shopping Mall of UlDuranDuran, the dreaded N'Zoth is hugery like the worgen. C'Thun wasn't in one because he made use of the noblest survival tactic there is, Playing Possum. --Quetzatoul (talk) 13:59, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Interest in Other Worlds

Well I have seen many people here claiming the Old Gods had no interest in any world aside from Azeroth. However, to quote A'Dal:

One in partiucular, a servant of the Old Gods known as Harbinger Skyriss, seeks to usher in his masters' vision of conquering all of the worlds in the universe.

Proof that the Old Gods did, indeed, pose a threat to all of existence. ~My rage bar is blue and I start the fight pissed - Peregrine 18:29, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Old Gods' allies

No section on allies of Old Gods?  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 05:44, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Curse of flesh and the ley lines?

Seeing as how the old gods are the driving force behind Azeroth remaining alive, is it perhaps possible that they are responsible for the ley lines on the planet? Just a thought but what if it were a path for them to communicate with each other? Seeing as how the ley lines are powerful, I don't think this could rule anything out considering the titans and old gods were the only beings we know of powerful enough to make such a thing -Ibage 10/12/08

It depends on whether the Old Gods ever got to other worlds. We know there must also be ley lines on Outland, because of the moonwells there and the sacred places for orcish shamans. So either the Old Gods must also have created them, or they were caused by a different power. Jormungand01 (talk)

As an added note, Ner'Zhul did go to the Black Temple to open new rifts in Beyond the Dark Portal because it was the largest nearby intersection of Ley Lines. ~My rage bar is blue and I start the fight pissed - Peregrine 16:53, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Inconsistency?

In the article, it is written that "...at first. This does raise some lore inconsistencies as the Titans are said to have come to this world and found the presence of the Old Gods" which is presumably a response to this tribunal quote: "Accessing. In the early stages of its development cycle Azeroth suffered infection by parasitic, necrophotic symbiotes." But the tribunal later explains that "Creators arrived to extirpate symbiotic infection. Assessment revealed that Old God infestation had grown malignant." If one interprets "early development cycle" as prehistoric/pre-Titan Azeroth, it potentially resolves this inconsitency doesn't it? The planet was fully formed and developed to some extent (Life existed for instance) but the Titans had not been involved yet, therefore (from a Titan perspective) not fully developed. Since the Old Gods are mentioned to be older than the world, it makes some sense they arrived to Azeroth shortly after formation and by the time the Titans arrived, they were able to fully entrench themselves, thus making the "infection" malignant. This can be backed by the third quote I wrote which clearly states that the Titans came after the "infection" occured. Perhaps make a small note in the article regarding the inconsistency or just remove that bit? --Neakal (talk) 23:57, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree, when I first saw what the tribunal said I basically came to the same conclusion as you. I didn't even realize that it could be even interpreted to mean that the titans were first. --JarHed (talk) 17:43, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

While I may agree with you, please see the thread here to see why that was added.--SWM2448 00:45, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Old Gods size and true forms

If we imagine Azeroth as the Earth, having a Crust where the continents are formed, and an outer mantle, where magma flows, my theory could explain how big an Old God could be, how bound to the planet they are, and what would happen if they're destroyed.

Imagine each of them as a huge organic mass of continental size with ramifications in both surface (the visible parts we fought and "killed" or going to fight) and in the depths of Azeroth, to its core. They grew up from, lets say, parasitic spores or cells that came from another place, and multiplicated themselves infecting the planet to a level that couldn't be excised without destroying it.

This picture below could help you understand my theory:

Orisai (talk) 06:31, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Ehhhh.... C'thun is dead. Pudim17 (talk - contr) 16:59, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Dead seems to be his official status at the moment, but "dead" doesn't mean the same as "excised". Just because his body has been killed doesn't mean that it's been removed from the crust. If an Old God grew that big then it would be impossible to get rid of the body without uprooting an entire continent. And the size also means it would take a very long time to decompose, perhaps thousands of years. So we can presume that C'Thuns body is still underneath southern Kalimdor somewhere. User:Jormungand01/sig 17:17, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Assuming C'thun's body really is that big, of course, which is still largely speculation at this point. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 06:34, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Well Yogg-Saron's certainly is. And we can expect all the Old Gods to have roughly the same biology. User:Jormungand01/sig 07:44, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure how big they are but the size of a continent? Wouldn't they be able to attack in hundreds of places instead of just a few above each area they lived? Some people think Hakkar is an Old God or related to them. He is big but not the size of a continent. Rolandius (talk - contr) 10:10, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

It's already been shown that Old Gods prefer to corrupt others rather than do any fighting themselves. The only example I can think of of one attacking when it's not a last resort is Yogg-Saron against Arthas and Anub'arak. But despite this we can still work out that Yoggie must be continent-sized because the roots of Vordrassil grew into his lair, and he is also probably going to be a boss in Ulduar. Then there are his whispers in Icecrown and Howling Fjord. The only other alternative is that he's simply got a continent-sized lair.

Hakkar may or may not be an Old God, and he certainly hasn't been confirmed as one. It is more likely that he is simply the most powerful of the troll Loa gods, with whom he shares many similarities. User:Jormungand01/sig 16:16, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

You have arrived at the "This is not a forum" message. You know the drill.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 17:18, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I was wondering when someone would say that. User:Jormungand01/sig 19:00, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Still, a truly fascinating theory... ~My rage bar is blue and I start the fight pissed - Peregrine 16:50, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

It is an interesting theory I agree, but you always hear about how the titans imprisoned the old gods deep underground. How would you imprison something that big? Apparently the Prison of Yogg-Saron in Ulduar is just a big room with huge chains that have been broken and has a hole in the floor (where presumably he escaped.) Regardless, I am still curious as to what part of C'thun and Yogg-Saron you see when you fight them. What's underground that you can't see?Tazmantdr (talk) 21:33, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but what exactly gives you the impression that the Old Gods are anywhere near that big?--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 00:06, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Yogg-Saron being present all over Northrend. We fight part of him in Ulduar. His lair extends to underneath Vordrassil. Whispers can be found in both Whisper Gulch and the Ymirheim Saronite Mines. It's possible that the Forgotten One encountered by Arthas was another manifestation of him. Not to mention that saronite ore, which is believed to come from him, is found in every zone in Northrend. If one Old God is that big then it's probable that so are the others. User:Jormungand01/sig 09:24, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Despite the fact that his influence spreads that far, there really isn't any hard evidence that he is physically the size of Northrend. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 10:12, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. By that logic, the Lich King is the size of Northrend and Lordaeron combined. As for the saronite, it's possible that Yogg-saron's psychic influence triggered the material's creation without him actually being present, though I suppose that's stretching it. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 16:22, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Explain Vordrassil then. Its roots penetrated into his lair. Therefore the lair must cover the distance from Ulduar to Grizzly Hills, and so it's logical to assume that so does Yogg-Saron himself. User:Jormungand01/sig 16:28, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

That's an enormous jump in logic. Onyxia's lair is a hollowed out volcano; is she the size of a mountain? -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 01:23, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Or, to put it another way just because you live in a house, doesn't mean you are as big as one. That said, I like this idea. It fits with the implied parasitic nature of them.Metalmunki (talk) 03:21, November 9, 2009 (UTC)

Well, I don't know if that's necessarily a fair comprarison. As for Vordrassil, Perhaps the depths of Ulduar actually go under Grizzly Hills? I think the most likely answer is that Yogg-Saron's evil/corruption is what spreads across Northrend, not necessarily his physical body. The same can be said for the other Old Gods, their evil can influence continents, beyond the reach of their physical bodies. They don't need to have bodymass to corrupt things, take Loken for example; he was made into one of Yogg-Sarons followers without being physically touched by the Old God.Tazmantdr (talk) 18:10, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

I can't back this up with any soild info, but Vordrassil's roots may be long and go north, while the Saronite veins may be huge and go south (both the nodes and the Wintergarde Mine show that.--SWM2448 18:17, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Illidan

where does it say that Illidan had anything to do with the old gods? If nothing then i think that the link to Illidan in the See Also part of the article should be removed. --Maelstrong 21:18, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Illidan, along with his brother Malfurion, stopped "The Three" from escaping during the Sundering.

Illidan then called to the nagas (and Azshara) who themselves work for the Old Gods since they chosed to "sell their souls" to survive the Sundering.

Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (talk) 21:37, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

We might need to remove it anyway, unless you want to add Furion, Tyrande, Krasus and Deathwing to the See Also list. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 23:31, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

To be fair, they stopped the Old Gods indirectly; what they were actually trying to stop were the Burning Legion. The Old Gods just happened to be using the Legion's portal to try to escape. And even then, only Malfurion even had any inkling of them. Illidan just thought he was stopping the Legion. I agree, remove him from the "See Also" section. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 23:42, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Category for Old Gods

Are the Old Gods seen as a race, organization, both, or neither? I noticed a lack of a category "describing" them. Rolandius (talk - contr) 14:09, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Three old gods and...

Three old gods, three visions in yogg-saron's brain room. one interesting thing is that Garona is/was controlled by the Tilight's hammer who now serve the old gods, Neltharion was influenced by them as well. In one of those three visions, the one with Deathwing you can hear yoggy talking along. In the war of Ancients you see that nelthation heard voices in his minds for so long that he couldn't make difference between them and his own thoughts, so it's AT LEAST hinted that yoggy himself corrupted him, so, three visions, 3 old gods, that could mean that each old god did one of those things as part of a greater plan, if that is true it would make Arthas another creature corrupted by the old gods, anyone knows any other hint that can support or deny that? Azahel (talk) 22:16, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

1) There are only two Old Gods confirmed: Yogg-Saron and C'Thun

2) Garona was captured by the Twilight's Hammer, she didn't "join them".

You're all basing this speculation on that there would actually be three Old Gods, which is not true. --g0urra[T҂C] 22:23, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

The information we got so far is taht there were 5 of them, acording to the books there are 3 of them imprisioned, the rest is just fear of a retcannon. She and I said she Is/was controlled by them. this conections are kind of confusing but they make sense at some point. Azahel (talk) 22:35, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

I think by "3 old gods" he was refering to "The Three" imprisonned by the Titans. Like the Speculation on the Y-S page : Yogg-Saron, One of "The Three" ?

But no, we have no proof that Arthas is/was a toy of "The Three". But the quote "He will learn, no king rules forever! Only death is eternal!" could be some kind of a hint.

Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (talk) 22:40, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

So we'll have to wait and see about that, we can't life of speculations. About the question if he is one of the tree, i still can't find out why it's still taken as speculation. if he is acting alongside with the others may be one, but about him being one of them, it looks pretty clear Azahel (talk) 22:56, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

We made the link between all we know ourselves (3 prisonners, the visions), but no official source claims it, so it should remain as Speculation I think...

Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (talk) 23:03, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Small inconsistency

If the Titans couldn't kill the Old Gods due to their symbiotic relationship with Azeroth itself, doesn't the fact that that we killed 2, and that one was already killed by the Titans have any effect on the planet, seeing as it was that effect that made the Titans so reluctant to kill them in the first place?--Jurnag12-screw you guys! I'm goin' home! (talk) 21:11, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Inconsistency...or future plot line? Its possible the ramifications of doing so will only occour once they are ALL dead. Its possible we didn't "kill" them. C'thun in the comics was said to be dead then it turns out he's alive. There's debate as to whether the initial death reported was the one caused by the titan who fought him or the one where the "heros of azeroth" go in and kill him. If it's the later then we really didn't kill him. My point is that the situation has not been fully laid out for us to be able to say much of anything with certainty. Blizzard might be doing this to keep us interested and speculating, or they may be doing it because they themselves haven't decided how it's going to play out and they want to keep things open to develope and change as they need. The one thing we can say with a respectable degree of certainty is that it's not an inconsistancy, at least not an unintentional one. It would be a pretty big oversight for blizzard in the same instance to introduce a boss who tells us the death of the old gods will lead to the destruction of Azeroth and have us kill an old god. More likely than not this...situation...is a lead into a future chapter of titan/old god lore.Warthok Talk Contribs 21:40, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I agree, but if the effects of the removal of the Old Gods would only appear when all are killed/removed, then why did the Titans leave them all alive? It has been proved that they could kill them (Master's Glaive), so why didn't they destroy them all except one, and imprison him a couple of kilometres under the surface so that it will never be found by any mortal, without ANY means of escape, instead of building a big-*ss temple as the entrance, with several guardians who are, although very powerful, suspectible to corruption by said god.

The Titans themselves essentially gave the Gods a chance to attempt to take over the planet by escaping their imprisonment.--Jurnag12-screw you guys! I'm goin' home! (talk) 22:06, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Heh thougt you might ask that, and yea i gave that some though as well. Possibly they did so as a buffer. A confirmation box of sorts. Theres a small number. If something happens to one, if one HAS to be kille etc...there is still others to keep Azeroth intact. That coupled with the fact the titans more likely than not didn't expect the old gods would be as troublesome as they have been makes it very possible. But again thats one assumption lumped on top of a pile of assumptions. Maybe thats not the way it works at all. Who can say...Warthok Talk Contribs 22:49, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

I had similar thoughts here. Thinking about it more, I remember the words of Aman...--SWM2448 22:57, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Okay, agreed, that is a good reason for several to be left alive, but it still does not explain the HUGE entrances to the prisons, or even the prisons on the surface instead of deep underground AKA completely sealed in.--Jurnag12-screw you guys! I'm goin' home! (talk) 20:29, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Titan city later made prsion. Again they didnt expect trouble.I guess you could call the titans short sighted.Warthok Talk Contribs 21:10, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Race

If this is a race, shouldn't the article's title be spelled "Old god"? "Old Gods" is plural and capitalized which doesn't go with the whole race spelling rule it seems. Rolandius (talk - contr) 01:58, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

I think we should stick to how Blizzard spells it and left Old Gods capitalized. Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 02:12, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Races are lower case though. Rolandius (talk - contr) 03:25, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I think most races are lower case because they are used by Blizzard that way. If Blizzard use Old Gods capitalized then they should have thier reasons. An example I can give is that God is capitalized most times in real life. Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 00:03, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Who came First

I'd just like to make a few arguments about the order of arrivals on Azeroth. The Tribunal says that the Old Gods infested Azeroth "early in its development." The planet existed before the titans came, all sources agree to that. Some say that the Old Gods were here first and some don't but the world was here and until we hear different there was already life on it and sentient life at that like the Furbolgs, tauren, and the trolls because they have legends of the "coming" of the titans. They could hardly remember the coming of the titans if they didn't precede them. Until we hear that the canon has changed there was highly evolved life on Azeroth prior to the titans arrival.

Long story short before the titans arrived the world already existed and was developing, even if it was not developing yet according to the titans plans. The tribunal says that the makers came to "extirpate symbiotic infection." However this doesn't necessarily mean that they'd been here before. The titans may make a policy of visiting every world infected by Old God contamination to repair damage. While the Tribune talks about the curse of flesh before mentioning the arrival of the makers, it doesn't actually say that's why the titans arrived. To remove the infection sounds less like an attempt to repair existing earthen and more like they arrived to try and remove the Old God infection. The Curse of Flesh may have existed for a long time before the titans arrived, infecting organisms like the trolls and furblogs (potentially. It's unclear exactly how the Old Gods would have gone about assimilating them so the Curse of Flesh might not have been involved). The First Stage earthen may have been blasted with the curse of flesh as part of the Old Gods attempt to fight back against the titans when they first came to Azeroth. Saying that the Creators "arrived" after the introduction of the Curse of Flesh doesn't tell us where they were before that. The Earthen, being a subterranean race may have made first contact with the Old Gods during the Titans initial survey of the world and been afflicted by the Curse before the titans even became aware of their presence. The titans could have simply been elsewhere on the planet working on something when they discovered that their minions had been corrupted and began to war against the Old Gods.

I can't state these facts for sure because we don't know how long a history the Tribunal is referring to. All of the incidents it refers to might have taken centuries or they may have taken place over as short a span as days. It's entirely possible that the Old Gods were still here first and undetected by the titans who began their labors only to discover shortly there after that they'd have to fight for this world.

Food for thought --Darkling235 23:35, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you totally ... because stating that " creators arrived to extirpate symbiotic infection. Assessment revealed that Old God infestation had grown malignant. Excising parasites would result in loss of host. "

doesn't actually mean that the old gods appeared after the titans have created the world ..

because if that is the case that will lead us to alot of questions ...

if the old gods appeared after the arrival of the titans .. why they were chained under the earth ?? and if they were not chained .. why they will need the curse of the flesh to facilitate assimilation ... couldn't the old gods with all there might just destroy the eathen and the other titans creation (( Iron Vyrkul and mechagnomes ? ))

and also if the old gods appeared after the titans arrival ..

where did the elementals and there lieutenants has gone !! We knew that the old gods ruled azeorth and azeorth was a dark and chaotic planet ...

stating that the titans arrived and shaped the world and then the old gods appeared on azoreth from no where is just doesn't make any sense

so this speculation surely not true ...

the only logical speculation is that the old gods where here long ago before the titans as we already know..

and the old gods had an epic battle with them also as we already know ...

and after the old gods defeat ... the titans imprisoned them for whatever reason ..

then they starting shaping Azeorth and creating the earthen and the other species ..

and after a few thousand years ... the old gods regained some of there power and launched

there first attack against the Titans creations .. in the form of " The Curse of The Flesh "

and when the Titans came back to check on there work ...

they found the Curse of the flesh ... and the old gods interference

but they couldn't reverse it nor killing the old gods because they where now part of azeorth ....

that is my 2 cents...

and pls correct me if iam wrong ...

HiTmAn47 (talk) 03:45, September 14, 2009 (UTC)

Planning a large re-write and clean-up of this article over the coming days/weeks.

Hey there people. I've been surveying this page, and I have to admit that in its current state it is leaving me seriously unsatisfied. The Old Gods are, especially lore-wise, rapidly gaining in importance through the Twilight Cult, Deathwing's return and Chris Metzen even implying he considers retconning the Old Gods to be the source of the corruption of Sargeras himself, so I think this article needs to start reflecting the growing prominence of the Old Gods. I plan to do a fairly large re-write and general clean-up on this article over the coming days/weeks, so don't be too alarmed when you start to see chances happening on the page.

If you have any feedback/criticism/comments/questions you'd like to contribute/ask, please do so in this topic so we have any and all discussions about the re-write centralized and easy to track for other editors. I'll also post updates here as I progress through the re-write. Thanks, and I hope you all help me out wherever/whenever I goof up. TheFaithfulOfYogg-Saron (talk) 18:39, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

While I'm certain this article could use a facelift (and probably a tummy-tuck and a tail-trim), I'm wondering how you're planning to "reflect the growing prominence of the Old Gods." Other than that, I say go for it. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 04:42, July 1, 2010 (UTC)

Well, as I hinted above, I got motivated into doing this over a comment Chris Metzen made. In the original lore, Sargeras was corrupted by the Eredar. With the Burning Crusade however, Metzen retconned this to Sargeras instead corrupting the civilization of Argus, leaving open a huge question he summarized something like this: "So if it weren't the Eredar, what caused Sargeras to go nuts? Who dares me to say: The Old Gods?". Ever since that comment, things like the Twilight's Hammer cult replacing the Shadow Council as primary mortal antagonists, Deathwing's background lore of having been driven to insanity by the Old Gods (Ulduar vision, etc) have been coming more and more in the spotlight. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I've got a hunch that now's a good time to clean this article up and neatly consolidate everything we know about the Old Gods, cause they seem set to begin taking a very central role in the lore from here on. TheFaithfulOfYogg-Saron (talk) 12:31, July 1, 2010 (UTC)

Faithful, when you redid the alternate names, you removed a few and moved the citation to a phrase that the citation does not support. Also, I am not sure how that history quote is the best introduction for the Old Gods.--SWM2448 04:46, July 1, 2010 (UTC)

Main reason I'm advocating this quote to be part of the intro is because it bluntly states a Titan got his @ss kicked while fighting an Old God. I can't think of a better way to illustrate right off the bat that the Old Gods are something that are completely in a league of their own, even when compared to things like the Burning Legion. This quote contains a lot food for thought and it sets the right tone for the article from the get-go, so I'd vote to keep it in place. And yeah, when you see me mess up things like quotations, just hit the revert button. I'll get it done properly as time permits me. TheFaithfulOfYogg-Saron (talk) 12:31, July 1, 2010 (UTC)

This was handled in a way that made it no better than before, and perhaps a bit worse.--SWM2448 02:58, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

His changes are still in place many years after. You appear to be alone in your opinion. Arthakar (talk) 21:17, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Or people are apathetic about it and I am lazy in regards to fixing it.--SWM2448 21:22, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Number of Old Gods

"There are more Old Gods than just the ones trapped on Azeroth", Blizzard reveals. Xavius, the Satyr Lord 11:36, July 11, 2010 (UTC)

Isorath

He's still DNP atm afaik. See Talk:Deathwing#Redaction -- Zeal ^(T/C)  14:16, July 28, 2010 (UTC)

Soggoth

He's not an old god, he can be considered their powerful servant, a herald of theirs even, but he's not an old god... http://i918.photobucket.com/albums/ad29/Aremic/soggoth.jpg - a herald, not a god

that article from wow.com can't be considered canon, I think... (Agamedes (talk) 09:01, July 30, 2010 (UTC))

Article from wow.com? either way, that in-game images suggest he's not an old god. Until there is proof he is, he's not. -- Zeal ^(T/C)  11:03, July 30, 2010 (UTC)

Old god forces

I think we should divide this article into Old Gods and Old God's forces or something similar, the Mortal worship section is practically a article itself.--Ashbear160 (talk) 23:12, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

So nobody thinks anything?--Ashbear160 (talk) 23:05, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

I think this Old Gods' forces boxes does not belong here (in its actual form). Maybe a section of the article would be nicer?

Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (^talk/_contribz) 08:08, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Did some big trimming and simplification

As it was, the article was becoming bloated with needless trivia. I've trimmed it down a good bit both in content and form, keeping only the essentials. It should be more accessible and readable now. MemoryOfSymmetry (talk) 02:50, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

It did need work...--SWM2448 02:57, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Why the infobox is a poor choice for an article as this.

I'm going to suggest we keep the infobox removed from the Old Gods article permanently for the following reasons:

1) The Old Gods are not a "race" or "species" in any normal sense of the word. Rather, they appear to be the embodiment of the darkest forces that are underlying nature/reality/the Universe.

2) For that reason, they also hardly can be considered any sort of political faction; the nature of the Old Gods is above and beyond such artificial descriptions. (Note that this does not apply to their creations/worshippers.)

3) Since virtually nothing is truly known about the Old Gods outside of the self-evident fact that they exist and are sealed away inside Azeroth, an infobox inevitably is going to end up filled with speculation and numerous "unknown"s. Infoboxes are designed to summarize topics that are clearly defined in relative terms. The Old Gods on the other hand may well represent an unfathomable mystery.

To paraphrase the  [Puzzle Box of Yogg-Saron]'s item description: "Make a vain attempt to create an infobox. Extremely difficult to accomplish.". MemoryOfSymmetry (talk) 19:19, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

1) Agreed, excluding the non-race part. Both us can't really proof our theories, but they are categorized as being of worship such as Loas, titans, gods, Demigods and eventually Dragons. I believe in the race classification (good possibility).

2)The Old gods have been directly facing the mortal races (Yogg and C'thun) and consequently involving with their politics and been leaders of their own factions, so I disagree. But don't worry: I breach a new article with the old text. Now worry about add info and organize (and eventually defeat) Old Gods' forces.

3)About the "Unknown"s, I add content more than a simple "Unknwon", remove the excess and I think that now is at least plausible maintain it.

As your paraphrase says "Extr. Difficult", I believe that only can be some difficulties and a bonus some uncertain info., but for me IS possible make this box, and still better give some info (even uncertain) than none.

(Gabrirt (talk) 22:13, 4 May 2011 (UTC))

Fan Theory being used as Fact

Just browsing through this page and noticing phrases like "Under the Old Gods rule, nothing like a society or civilization could ever arise since..." and "in contrast, the Old Gods have no ethos, no morality and operate through a raw amorality (one might even say they transcend things like motives and ethics)". However when I look around the direct origins of those quotes seems to be from the "Know your Lore" articles on WoW Insider. I recommend immediate cleansing action from whoever is in charge of this page or who has the time to sort through and check the sources for everything. This is supposed to be a reasonably trusty source of lore and speculation or fan assumptions and theories should be listed as such.

Not to mention that the quote that no civilization could arise under Old God control is distinctly contradicted by the existence of the Aqir. I see some similar potentially sourceless assumptions under "Mortal Worshipers", as the Aqir and Mantid seem to break the supposed "rule" that it states of Old God worshipers being insane. Well hope someone notices my pointing this out. -Kra'Khed (talk) 23:55, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Aqir (and hereby mantid & nerubian) were created by the Old Gods, no race not created by them would have made a society, as chaos and blood was all over Azeroth until the arrival of the Titans.

Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (^talk/_contribz) 07:17, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Topic continued at Forum:The Old God page is full of Fanon from WoWinsider being passed as "lore".

I question the origin of your statement. It seems to me to be more of an assumption than anything else, and while a reasonable enough assumption it is not in fact an entirely canon statement. The Old Gods are clearly not so chaotic that no civilization could arise under their rule if a civilization can only arise under their direct rule during their rule. Speculation upon degree of extreme chaos should go under speculation or be properly sourced. -Kra'Khed (talk) 01:05, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Everything I complained about is still true, but somehow this page got worse. I am going to set some time aside to actually do something about it, clean it up, and then take efforts to keep it that way. Anyone who is sane and speaks English can help if they want.--SWM2448 21:02, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Y'shaarj

Now that we have a picture of his sealed body maybe we should use that for him instead of the Sha?--Ashbear160 (talk) 10:29, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

What picture would this be? I wasn't aware of any official artwork of Y'Shaarj. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 16:22, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

The only artwork we have is of his heart :/ --Cemotucu (talk) 17:04, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Who Came First? Part 2

Tribunal doesn't say "early in its development," it says "early stages of its development cycle." The Old Gods also "rendered all systems, including Earthen defenseless in order to facilitate assimilation." It was part of their infection process, not that it was them fighting against the Titans. Tribunal says this infection was exactly the reason the Titans came to fight the Old Gods, after the Earthen were zapped with the Curse of Flesh. -Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 20:24, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

And "development cycle" is a direct reference to Lore Keeper of Norgannon's description of the Earthen service cycle for Titans ordering Azeroth after they left (the first time).

• "the Creators wanted to synthesize a race that would long be an integral part of this world's development cycle after they had departed. This race would be instrumental in fulfilling the Creators' long-term development objectives for Azeroth."
• "Destabilization was not discovered until well into the Earthen's primary service cycle for the Creators."

The Titans came, dropped off the Earthen to develop Azeroth, then left. After the Earthen had been working for a while is when they were afflicted by the Curse of Flesh. AFTER, they were zapped by the Old Gods is when the Titans returned to get rid of the Old Gods.

Brann Bronzebeard yells: Old Gods eh? So they zapped the Earthen with this Curse of Flesh. And then what?

Kaddrak yells: Accessing. Creators arrived to extirpate symbiotic infection.

-Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 03:59, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

"It's entirely possible that the Old Gods were still here first and undetected by the titans who began their labors only to discover shortly there after that they'd have to fight for this world."

Doesn't really make sense that the Old Gods would sit around twiddling their thumbs when they had free reign over Azeroth. Especially when they built up massive empires with Aqir/Elementals/Faceless Ones, and waged global war against each other. That kind of thing is hard to miss. If we're going the route of Old Gods were there first but didn't do anything, then Old Gods might as well have not been on Azeroth when the Titans dropped the first set of Earthen off. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 04:46, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

I had never connected the dots between both sources... It is really interesting. I think this is another point of evidence of a retcon. --Cemotucu (talk) 14:12, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

The Lore Keeper of Norgannon says that the earthen are "a race that would long be an integral part of [Azeroth]'s development cycle after [the titans] had departed" and the that Old Gods attacked the earthen "well into the Earthen's primary service cycle for the Creators." The Tribunal of Ages says that the Old Gods attacked "in the early stages of [Azeroth's] development cycle". This means that "well into the Earthen's primary service cycle" is synonymous with "the early stages of [Azeroth's] development cycle," these do not mean that the service cycle did not necessarily start after the titans had departed, only that it would extend beyond that. As a side note, I think that most possibilities are covered at Earthen#Before_the_titans_on_Azeroth.3F, but let us review things.

You have the original scenario in "The Old Gods and the Ordering of Azeroth." This is contradicted by the earthen predating the titans' war with the Old Gods on Azeroth. The ToA says that the earthen predate a point where both the Old Gods and the earthen were on Azeroth and a point where the "Creators arrived to extirpate symbiotic infection." The assumption here is that the titans arrived, left the earthen behind, and arrived a second time to find the Old Gods attacking. That is fairly clear, but what points are not clear are if they were ever on Azeroth when the earthen first arrived and if their second arrival was from off-planet.

The biggest hint we have that they were there before the earthen is that the titans obtained "a cross-section of Azeroth's crust". Either giant metallic beings cut a sliver out of Azeroth, or they remotely obtained it either through (non-earthen) proxy or magical scanners. Besides that, in relation to the above is the unease that the titans had about Azeroth. The Lore Keeper of Norgannon says that "For Azeroth, a subterranean being matrix was modified to create a being with increased durability with an affinity for deep region shaping." Why would the titans modify an existing tool with an improved "survivability paradigm" to perform a normal task? The obvious answer is that the Old Gods were hiding underground, but the titans did not know it yet. At this point, the titans either stayed or left (or were never there in person to begin with).

But wait, the ToA says that "In the early stages of its development cycle Azeroth suffered infection by parasitic, necrophotic symbiotes." Does this mean that the Old Gods arrived after the earthen (with infection meaning arrival), or does it mean that they just revealed themselves (and infected things) after the earthen were around? It could be either. Ask CDev makes the "coming of the titans" synonymous with "when the titans' forces arrived to subdue the Old Gods," which was after the earthen were infected, which is obviously after the earthen were there to begin with. My theory is that the earthen were on Azeroth before the titans, and the Old Gods were there before the titans, but the titans arrived once (in some context) and the Old Gods arrived whenever.--SWM2448 21:32, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Also for consideration is that after the Titans defeated the Old Gods, they remained on Azeroth until the ordering was complete. This is in "The Old Gods and the Ordering of Azeroth" (dated to WC3), Charge of the Dragonflights (dated to WoW), and other accounts of how they blessed the Aspects after ordering was complete. So the only time available for LKoN's statements regarding "a race that would long be an integral part of [Azeroth]'s development cycle after [the titans] had departed" would be before they were zapped with the CoF. It also makes reference to the Titans departing after seeding these Earthen, so the Titans must have been present for this part. It also follows how Kosak at BlizzCon described the Titans involvement with Draenor as just a pit stop, "peaced out of there pretty early on" Link. Presumably, the extra attention Azeroth got was because of the Old Gods presence.

I get what you're saying that this could have been the plan and may have never left. But it doesn't fit with how the Old Gods completely overran Azeroth with their massive empires. If the Titans never left, surely they would have done something before the Old Gods took over the entire planet. And this Old Gods infection wasn't discovered until well into the service cycle.

It is curious that the Titans decided to change their typical biomass foundation to make stone Earthen. And that the Old Gods' method for neutralizing them was to turn them flesh (the "unforseen anomalies" the Titans perhaps tried to design against).

It's also stated in CDev that the Old Gods require "a lot to become manifested on a physical plane." They also have Harbingers and followers throughout the universe to summon them onto those worlds from their home plane.

So incorporating all of this:

• The Old Gods were in their initial stages of being summoned/manifested on Azeroth when the Titans first arrived.
• The Titans detected something was funky and redesigned the Earthen with this in mind. Then left believing their modifications would suffice without fully grasping the nature of that underground funkiness.
• The Old Gods zapped the Earthen and other Titan systems to facilitate their infection.
• They became fully summoned/manifested on Azeroth and proceeded to wreck the place with their Aqir, Elementals, and Faceless Ones.
• Alerted to the troubles on Azeroth, the Titans returned to "extirpate"/"subdue" the Old Gods.
• The Titans stayed to personally oversee the rest of the Ordering, before appointing long-term protectors and leaving.

Would that be a fair compromise/assessment? --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 23:10, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Ultimately, the purpose of Wowpedia is to present the information as it stands - not come up with theories to explain inconsistencies and contradictions. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 23:38, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

IMO, the 2 visits thing is solidly grounded in multiple sources (even if ultimately deemed not main page worthy). But I agree the assessment of who arrived when is more fitting for the discussion section, being murky as it is. Or a speculation section. At this point, I'm just looking for feedback on if it mostly fits or I missed something. My headcanon was missing that stone Earthen customization for harsh underground implying some kind of Old Gods presence. I was under the impression that the template was non-organic like the Titans and Keepers. So TY, SMW. :) --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 04:30, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

I know this isn't exactly concrete, but Metzen's train of thought when asked about the insectoid races of the Old Gods was era of the titans and then the Old Gods came (link):

"We've had a lot of discussion about the ancient, ancient history of Warcraft. You know, the era of the titans. Uh, the era, you know, of when the Old Gods came..."

This could further indicate that they retconned it. Also, the UVG describes the Old Gods arriving to threaten Azeroth and being malignant which matches how the Tribunal of Ages describes them. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 09:08, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

RE: planet vs primal plane

It's presented as a legendary tale in The Sundering, not a factual account of events. I think the legend means to say that the planet didn't exist until the titans came as "the world's creators." The "primal plane" being a bloody chaos preceding the planet. More factual sources indicate that the Old Gods indeed ruled the planet. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 22:00, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

History section reversions

I properly cited those changes... The UVG is the most recent bit of lore and doesn't contradict any previous lore. It just fills in some gaps. Nothing said the Old Gods were native to Azeroth. The AskCDev specifically says it takes a lot for them to become manifested on the physical plane. The part from The Sundering is a legend in the book, all I did was copy the full thing. Putting the UVG in a parenthetical while a flavor lore legend is not is intellectually dishonest. It looks like Levi26 just reverted all my changes (including minor mainentance ones) without actually looking at what they were. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 17:28, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

From the UVG pg 33 (link):

Long ago, the world of Azeroth became threatened by malignant beings of unfathomable evil. Known as the Old Gods, these entities of chaos and destruction wreaked havoc on the world. In ages past, the Old Gods commanded great armies led by four Elemental Lords: Ragnaros the Firelord, Al'Akir the Windlord...

From UVG pg 176 (link):

Elementals are manifestations of volatile energy. Their exact origins are unknown. These innately chaotic entities once raged freely on primordial Azeroth until the Old Gods arrived and enslaved them...

--Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 17:47, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

From The Sundering pg 157:

The Old Gods existed only as legend even to most dragons, who had been born in the dawn of the world. Krasus, through his eternal inquisitiveness—or, as Rhonin put it, his eternal nosiness—knew them to be much more.

As the tale went, the three dark entities had ruled over a bloody chaos of which even the demon Lords of the Burning Legion could not imagine. They had ruled over the primal plane until the coming of the world’s creators. There had been war of cosmic proportions and, in the end, the Old Gods had fallen.

The three had been cast down into eternal imprisonment, the place of their confinement hidden from all and their powers bound until the end of time. That should have been the final line of the saga...

--Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 17:56, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=33147/the-last-gasp-of-yshaarj In the quest above it states the following: "A dark, vaporous substance stains the floor of the room. This is all that remains of the Old God Y'Shaarj." I was wondering if this should be added to the description of Y'Sharrj. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Atlas9802 (talk · contr).

Defeated Old Gods

As there is no normal ways to definitively kill Old Gods, I believe that the defeated Old Gods (like C'Thun and Yogg-Saron) should have their status listed as "passive".Gabrirt (talk · contributions) 21:45, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

As far as I know, there is no definitive official source stating whether or not we permanently killed C'Thun and Yogg-Saron. I think it's logical to assume that we didn't permanently defeat them for several reasons:

• • Both C'Thun and Yogg-Saron continued to communicate with mortals after their supposed deaths (C'Thun to Cho'gall in the comic, Yogg to players in the Legion pre-expansion event) but then again, so did Y'Shaarj, and it was stated to be permanently dead, and the Yogg stuff in Legion is merely described as "echoes" (see  [35-40] Echoes of the Past).
  • In Chronicle Volume 1, the Old Gods are depicted and described as being the size of entire mountains, and Yogg's influence stretched all over Northrend and even to Emerald Dream portals in Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms, so unless the titan-forged had access to some kind of enormous  [Gnomish Shrink Ray] it seems like what we "killed" in AQ and Ulduar were just tiny appendages, with the rest of their bodies hidden underground.
  • There's also the whole "Outside the cycle" thing, and as Old Gods are created from the Void instead of the Light from which nearly all other life originates they would probably not biologically function the same way as most "normal" organisms would.

BUT as I said before, I have yet to see an official statement about their current status. In-game quests treat it as if we completely killed C'Thun, Yogg has that Shath'Yar quote about "the shadow of its corpse", Chronicle obviously only goes up to just prior to the start of the First War, and while both the Ultimate Visual Guide and the Game Guide on the official site mention the Old Gods or describe their abilities, neither of them makes any mention of their final defeats. I may have missed some really obvious information somewhere, in which case, do correct me, but for now I think it's best to list them as "Defeated" or "Unknown" until we get more concrete information about their current status.
TL;DR: We don't know if they're dead or not. -- DeludedTroll (talk • contribs) 11:30, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

As I said, there is no "normal" ways to kill these aberrations. But you can defeat them, implying, for me, that they can be very weakened, but can't be killed by the very normal ways I have stated. So, defeating an Old God halts his expanding influence, but not permanently. After the defeat it start to recover their former power but this process takes a VERY long time (probably lasts proportional to how crushing was the defeat, as we can see, millenniums after their greatest defeat they do not recovered completely their former strength). "Defeated" is a possibility for the status of C'Thun and Yogg-Saron, but we didn't see they plotting for their own; their actions aren't enough to be relevant, so, I believe that "Passive" is a good word to describe this status.Gabrirt (talk · contributions) 20:10, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Yeah agreed. Something along the lines of dormant/weakened/defeated would probably be better than "killed" PeterWind (talk) 21:35, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

I don't know, to me "Passive" makes it sound like they're definitely still alive, just dormant, even though, as I said, I don't think there's any official source stating that that's the case. (In fact, I remembered after posting the above that at one of the BlizzCons, they said something along the lines of "the Cataclysm happened because C'Thun and Yogg-Saron died". However, to my knowledge, no other sources mention this and all other information about the Cataclysm state or heavily imply it mainly occurred because Deathwing broke the World Pillar and thus shattered the barrier between Azeroth and the Elemental Plane, so that point is still up for debate — especially now with the clarification in Chronicle that killing the Old Gods the way the titans did it is what is a bad idea, not necessarily the idea of killing them in general... but I digress.) I still think "Unknown" is the best option until we know for certain. Just my opinion. -- DeludedTroll (talk • contribs) 10:59, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Organizing the space

My edits were to short the article size with spatial organization (without removing information). I couldn't see any benefits on SMN undo.Gabrirt (talk · contributions) 19:04, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

What you personally think this article should look like does not matter. The wiki is not for you. --g0urra[T҂C] 22:55, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

By the way, his name is Sandwichman, so it should be SWM not SMN. --g0urra[T҂C] 22:56, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Are you trying to cast me out? Are you reverts based on some policy that is unknown to me?Gabrirt (talk · contributions) 22:59, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Also, you uncorrected the word "entities" to "entites", unwikified "titanic" and removed a link for the possible future article called "War between the Old Gods"".Gabrirt (talk · contributions) 23:04, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

See Image guidelines, the policy is not unknown. The "titanic" link isn't needed as it was linked just above. There's no "possible future article" that you are making up on the spot.

If you think that I'm trying to cast you out, then go ahead and leave. --g0urra[T҂C] 23:09, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

I admit that, despite I am in Wowpedia for years, I almost never read policies. As english is not my first language there are, sometimes, that the communication failures (I didn't understand "There's no "possible future article" that you are making up on the spot.", so, please, explain with another words) and this can make some misunderstandings. I had many problems in the past thanks to this misunderstandings, and thanks too to many subsequent crisis I had I my life. About the outcasting: Aren't you being arrogant or abusing of your position of admin saying that phrase?Gabrirt (talk · contributions) 23:36, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

You have a bad habit of making up articles that have no basis in lore, such as "War against <X>", so that you can basically have an article for anything. My first language isn't English either, but I am willing to believe that you have less knowledge of the English language. If I really wanted to cast you out I would have done so already. I am not at that point yet. --g0urra[T҂C] 23:54, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Come on guys. I appreciate both of your work. I'd be sad to see something happening.Xporc (talk) 00:28, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

I think what Gourra means by "The wiki is not for you" is simply that following the guidelines takes priority over our individual preferences. PeterWind (talk) 02:29, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

This is not true. I have tried to make people stop naming articles this way (unless if the name is officially stated) because this naming completely breaks the sense of NPoV. The Zandalari, Xavius and Twilight cultists calls the wars that they participated as, respectively, War against the Zandalari, War Against the Nightmare and War against Deathwing? (I'm sure that not). So, I tried to propose the renaming of them and started a project to amplify the number of war pages, all them based in lore that I have read in Wowpedia. Can you tell to me an example of war or article I have created having no basis on lore? You don't explained what you mean with "There's no "possible future article" that you are making up on the spot.". Gabrirt (talk · contributions) 14:56, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

It's funny how you say that the "War" articles are examples for your reasoning, however 2 out of 3 have been tagged with {{Bettername}}, implying you have made no references to those names. Furthermore your "all-conflict project" have names that have no basis at all (unless you're going to add the references when creating the articles), including the "possible future article" that you mentioned. You basically have your obsession with making "conflict" or "war" pages that has EVERYTHING, but making them under made up names.

By the way, NPOV stands for Neutral Point of View, not No Point of View. But then again you don't read any guidelines or policies of this wiki so I wouldn't expect you to know that either. --g0urra[T҂C] 17:54, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Blizzard frequently do not state clearly names of events, so we must find the better name until it be properly named, and, for me, what should matter in naming is the accuracy of the name, not how beautiful or simple it is. For the example: The conflict called "Invasion of Outland" have not happened just in Outland, so I proposed rename it as "War of the reopening of the Dark Portal". A name should reflect a major happening or an object that can be considered a symbol of the event, in the case the reopening of the Dark Portal. You may know just because an event or faction is not officially named it not means it didn't existed. I will, just as possible, continue the project and suggest better names to not officially named pages. I believe we can change an "arbitrary" name with another better using this reasoning.Gabrirt (talk · contributions) 18:56, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Changing an arbitrary name to another arbitrary name with more specific words in that name is not necessarily an improvement. It is a waste of effort, especially when the page is mostly an infobox. I have expressed this before. Gabrirt, people do not like your views on what it means to be organized.--SWM2448 21:30, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Can you explain why it is a waste of effort, specially if the intent of name-changing is to better it?Gabrirt (talk · contributions) 13:44, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

It does not better the article, it just makes it overly poetic for no reason.--SWM2448 16:07, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

The main reason of the name-changes I support is bettering the accuracy of the name, not necessarily to be poetic or beautiful. Just look the examples, describe, and say why the names I have proposed are wronger or worse in the matter of accurateness.Gabrirt (talk · contributions) 19:48, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

What SWM said. The ongoing obsession you have with creating articles for every single conflict imaginable - no matter how ridiculous you're going to name the article - is getting out of hand. --g0urra[T҂C] 01:00, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Are both of you saying the name of an article is more important of its content or more important than documenting its facts?Gabrirt (talk · contributions) 21:41, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

No, both are important. The names must be official, or at least sensible, and the content must be worth documenting as its own entity.--SWM2448 16:07, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Recent editing war

Unless there is a canonical source supporting that the Old Gods can regenerate in the Void after being killed and/or that, quote, "adventurers have also likely not actually 'killed' Yogg-Saron or C'Thun", then I would think that it's fan speculation and is better suited for the Old Gods speculation page, rather than a Notes section on the main Old God page. (I assume that, due to the two being explicitly separated, this means that the main Old Gods page should only contain official information and no speculation). I really don't want to get involved in an editing war over this. As it is, both of the above statements are, as far as I know, unconfirmed, and we don't know the official status of C'Thun and Yogg-Saron, or how exactly death works for Old Gods. -- DeludedTroll (talk • contribs) 07:29, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

Power of the Old Gods

I only just recently noticed this, but edits that I made a while back to the power section of this page were erased. I have essentially re-written what I had originally put there, because what I had done was to correct the record regarding the Old Gods' power when compared to that of the Titans. The World of Warcraft: Chronicle Volume 1 demonstrates very, very clearly that the Titans are far more powerful than the Old Gods. The part of the article that I have recently removed sounded as though it was written by someone who disagrees with the Chronicle and wanted to justify the viewpoint that was prevalent before the recent retcon; that the Old Gods were more powerful than the Titans. That is very clearly no longer the case. To the individual in question, or any like-minded individuals, please do not attempt to revert that section of the page to the pre-retcon status without citing something to counter the Chronicle. The main article is not an appropriate place for personal opinions. -- Alucard10001 18:01, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

Exactly, which is why you should stop making large assumptions based on two incidents. Both of the times a Titan defeated an Old God according to the Chronicle were times where they solely used their size to their advantage. Sargeras didn't even directly fight them, he just chopped the planet in half (which, by the way, isn't actually said to have killed any Old Gods, just the Titan) which he could only do because he's as big as one. Aman'Thul's action is entirely based on his size as well, and Y'Shaarj seemingly didn't know he was there. It then says Aman'Thul 'heaved' it out, which is a word used for lifting something heavy, meaning it was difficult even for Aman'Thul. So no, the Titans are not 'far more powerful' than the Old Gods. They're just physically larger. We've also seen quite a few examples of the Old Gods viewing the Titans with derision, and they don't see Sargeras as much of a threat, to the point that they talk down about him. That's not something you do towards someone who you can't beat.

I'm not disagreeing with the Chronicle, because it doesn't at all state 'Titans are more powerful than Old Gods'. I'm disagreeing with the hastiness of fans who're so impressed by a couple spectacles that they take it as a retcon. To you, and any like-minded individuals, please stop trying to jump to conclusions and leave it vague until something is directly confirmed. As you said, the main article is not an appropriate place for personal opinions.Meganerd18 (talk) 03:40, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

"With a heave of his blade, Sargeras split the world in two. The resultant explosion consumed the Old Gods and their energies, but it killed the nascent titan as well." Chronicle V1, p. 24. Heave doesn't mean difficult, it means it took effort, force, or violence. The Old Gods have been defeated by titan-forged and mortals, who are nowhere near as powerful as titans regardless of size. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 03:46, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Name

Shouldn't the name of the page be Old God as with other race articles? (See also Wild Gods) --Mordecay (talk) 13:21, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

I suppose it comes down to whether you look at the old gods as a group/organizations or a race. The void lords created the old gods, and there seem to be different types. Are they all same "race"? I haven't read the Chronicle yet, so I'm probably not really up to date on this. PeterWind (talk) 13:39, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Considering they all share the same background and goals, I think it's better to treat them as a group than a race, but I don't mind either. Also Peter, you should read it, it's good! Xporc (talk) 13:40, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Technically I think it should be singular but I don't mind either. -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 15:17, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Yeah I plan on getting around to it "soon™" :) PeterWind (talk) 19:04, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

"The Old Gods" are a collectively a character, even in the current lore. The quickest proof that I can think of is that they all talk at once in BFD. Just because they were split into four characters with unique plots does not mean that there stopped being a collective whispering and dreaming entity that shows up every now and then. Or rather, just because there is only N'Zoth left does not mean the character was retconned away. If you really want to be pedantic, there could be a race page and a page for the Azerothian Old Gods speaking and working as one. But don't.--SWM2448 19:23, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Then this page should be called "The Three", because that is the organization you're talking about, the coalition of Old Gods whispering and manipulating events since the dawn of civilization. An Old God is a creature, the Azerothian Old Gods are The Three. -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 20:05, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

I suggest just keeping it as Old Gods then. Xporc (talk) 20:29, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Yeah we have a section called "Other Old Gods" anyway. -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 21:01, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Leave it at Old Gods. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 05:14, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

Didn't we decided to leave it as Old Gods instead of Old God? Xporc (talk) 16:58, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

That was before Legion/BFA. The argument relied on the idea that "the Old Gods" were "1 character". The introduction of more Old Gods in the Chronicle artwork, in the Antorus ending or Nighthold Star Augur everywhere in the sky, or rather most importantly in BFA, nullifies that. G'huun is an Old God with a different origin, and with different goals (which directly contradict the others'). -- MyMindWontQuiet 17:46, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

True. I don't really mind, but there's a lot of templates and redirects to update each time Xporc (talk) 17:56, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

Get rid of this trivia line

"Some Old God minions claimed that "They do not die; they do not live. They are outside the cycle."[54] The death of Y'Shaarj and of the Old Gods killed by Sargeras seem to contradict this."

This line is completely pointless to have. The first part is purely an observation, and the second part is speculation. Why? Because we now have demons, wild gods, and elementals who've been demonstrated as dying by not dying unless special circumstances are met. Any comment to the affirmative or negative for anything non-mortal at this point is speculative and shouldn't be in this article. Meganerd18 (talk) 08:23, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

Current lore says that Y'Shaarj is dead-dead, yet there is this weird quote. If they change Y'Shaarj's fate, then that development can be added to the note, but in the current state, it seems to be valid. --Mordecay (talk) 12:25, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

It's not speculative. We have one old NPC quote from TBC saying they neither live nor die, and we have recent lore saying Y'Shaarj is dead-dead and Sargeras killing Old Gods. It's perfectly okay to point out the discrepancy between the two. -- MyMindWontQuiet 16:17, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

Even after this discrepancy has happened before? Also the NPC quote is in Cataclysm as well. Meganerd18 (talk) 01:33, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

even if it’s likely to turn out the same way, it’s not guaranteed, so for now the discrepancy is an interesting thing to note. there’s no harm pointing out that we really don’t know if they can die or not —Eithris (talk) 15:33, 29 October 2018 (UTC)