Talk:Orc

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"I" iconAs per the recent race names vote at Wowpedia talk:Writing policy#Race name case, the correct race name spelling is "orc" and not "Orc"




Crest

Note: the crest is the one the Horde used during WCIII. The one for Orcs is similar, but different. It's in Art of World of Warcraft. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by FeldmanSkitzoid (talk · contr).

It's entirely possible that the crest on the page isn't the proper one. I found the image in interface.mpq (Interface\Glues\Credits\Orcshield#.blp). If there's a more accurate one out there, feel free to upload a new image. --Rahskala 06:32, 4 Feb 2005 (EST)

the crest actually is the right one as seen e.g. on the official wow desktop wallpaper; furthermore there are various images with the proper crest on various WC3 addon-cds (inofficial ones).

--> feb 13, 2006: corrected various misspellings

--Grim 11:26, 13 Feb 2006 (EST)

Orc POV

Ok, will somebody please explain to me when Blizzard is going to decide that they've made enough books about orcs and might wanna start in on other races? So far the orcs have Lord of the Clans, the War of the Ancients Trilogy (sort of), Cycle of Hatred, Rise of the Horde, so on and so forth. Meanwhile there has not been a book I'm familiar with that focuses on Tauren, Trolls, Dwarves, Gnomes, Forsaken, or Draenei, when do we get to learn about them? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lckyluke372 (talk · contr).

Thats because orcs are one of the most or the most important race in Warcraft. Zarnks 06:14, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Orcs might be said to be one of the historically significant races to the series, because the first game was Orcs vs. Humans. The series began with both orcs and humans so they both have historical signifigance throughout the entire series. But calling orcs the most important race is definitely hord-biased comment. In reality even if humans and orcs were the first races to start in the games that doesn't mean they were the most important races.
On a related note there are plenty of novels that follow human main characters. Day of the Dragon essentially followed Rhonin although it pretty much gave Vareesa and Falstad plenty of page time as well. The Last Guardian pretty much followed Khadger from what little I've scanned over in it (I'll read it once I finish DotD).
In anycase one may argue that historically it all began with night elves (or rather the highborne/high elves), and that they are historically important since they were then ones that first brought war with the Burning Legion to Azeroth (turning its eye towards the world), causing the sundering of the world, leading to multiple invasions of demons to the world during 10,00 year period, Aegwyn's battle with Sargeras' Avatar, later battles with orcs, and the second coming of the Legion....Or one might argue that its the Burning Leigon that is historically important for bringing war to both Azeroth or Draenor. However the point is alot of races are historically significant and important in some way. No one race is "most important race in Warcraft".Baggins 15:25, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

An error in the end of the article

Cho'Gall wasn't an orc. He (they?) was a two-headed ogre. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Finger of Death (talk · contr).

Disambig?

Should their be a disabiguation for this page? Not only is their the playable race of orcs, but their are also the orcs of blackrock, the Fel orcs of the burning leigon, and the Mag'har of outland. I will try to creat a page for the mag'thar tonight, once i can organize a little info about them. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Chaztheweird (talk · contr).

Mag'Har and Frostwolves

If the Mag'Har are uncorrupted Orcs, and the FrostWolves where the only clan that fully escaped the corruption, why aren't Frostwolves depicted as Mag'Har? Saimdusan

I sould imagine because Mag'Har are the uncorrupted ones who never crossed into Azeroth.--Ragestorm 14:22, 4 November 2006 (EST)
Yes but would walking through a portal make your skin green? It won't change anyone who walks through the Dark Portal, so why exactly would the Frostwolf's skin become green? Saimdusan
Why did the Stormreavers or Twilight's Hammer or any of them have green skin? It wasn't simply the drinking of the Blood- it was a change in priorities, a corruption of mind. Gul'dan himself had green skin, as did the rest of Blackhand and Orgrim's hordes. Also, perhaps Mag'Har are Fel Orcs who tried to return to the old ways, as opposed to never being corrupted in the first place.--Ragestorm 08:47, 17 November 2006 (EST)
Well... I always thought that sdrinking fel blood would turn their skin green, then drinking even more made it red. We cant really tell, demon corruption is a tricky thing, every case is different. And didn't the Twilight's Hammer and Stormreaver clans drink the demon blood? And weren't Frostwolves never evil or part of the Horde during the first and second wars? Im pretty sure that they are uncorrupted Orcs, see the Mag'har article. I think Garrosh Hellscream would have crossed the Dark Portal with his dad to Azeroth if he drank Mannoroth's blood. Same with Jorin Deadeye. Saimdusan
I doubt that you "always" thought it, but you do appear correct. It would seem then, that the Frostwolves didn't completely escape the corruption. They were indeed part of the Horde, they were just never loyal to Gul'dan and the Shadow Council- Durotan was one of Orgrim's best friends. This leaves us with two questions: 1) is green skin a sign of lesser demonic corruption? and 2) if Grom and Kilrogg willingly drank the Blood, why did their own sons disagree?--Ragestorm 19:33, 17 November 2006 (EST)
Aye... but Durotan never drank the demon blood, which makes it all the more confusing. Saimdusan 17:46, 22 November 2006 (EST)
There you go: If completely uncorrupted orcs have brown skin, then why is Thrall green? This implies that green skin has nothing to do with the blood curse. Perhaps the Mag'har's skin is brown because of radiation or something. Golden might address this in Rise of the Horde.--Ragestorm 18:34, 22 November 2006 (EST)

Another possibility is the change of environment, I mean they migrated from a different world. Orcs have brown skin under Draenor's red sun. but their skin turns green under the yellow sun of Azeroth, its a Superman thing. --Korgo 22:45, 24 November 2006 (EST)

Right theory, wrong reference. Makes sense. Even among humans, some people look different under flourescent lights than under the sun. Though they're not skin, I've got brown clothes that look green at work, under different lighting. --Ragestorm 23:15, 24 November 2006 (EST)


Well, to use a real world example, [1]. There can be a wide range in what is considered caucasion, technically. If you were to look at one nationality for example people from Japan, you can see a pretty wide range of physical differences as well, and yet they are still considered Japanese. Not only that it is possible to change one's own pigment by eating enough of certain minerals. Beta Carotine turning skin orange for example. Course that is not truly a physical change its more superficial. I seem to recall the rpg saying that natural orc colors could range anywhere between dark green, to grey, to light brown in one of the sources as well.Baggins 22:01, 10 December 2006 (EST)

Yep, the even original Warcraft RPG book says that that orcs can naturally vary between light green to brown[1]. So I really don't see we have much of an issue here... I see no conflict arising...Baggins 22:19, 10 December 2006 (EST)

Minerals or sun color, I see no issue.--Ragestorm 23:13, 10 December 2006 (EST)
As far as i know drinking the blood directly makes you red, diluted makes you green and using/exposure of warlock magics/demons makes you green, makes sense as the Frostwolves and Thrall is green though they never drank any blood -Rovdyr

Obviously, it's genetic. BUT why would the Frostwolves still have green skin? I doubt it's moving to a different world. According to the article, orcs drank the demon blood and became greener and bigger. So yeah... I don't get it. Saimdusan 07:28, 1 March 2007 (EST)

As is spelled out in the article now, any exposure to warlock magic, even third-hand, turns orc skin green. Given the fact that Drek'Thar and the other Frostwolf shamans were practicing warlocks, there was enough exposure for the skin of the whole clan to change. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 11:52, 1 March 2007 (EST)
I would also suggest scrolling down to where this has already been discussed.. >_> >Skin colour --Zealtalkcontrweb 15:27, 1 March 2007 (EST)

World of origin

How can Azeroth be the homeworld of the Orcs?----Odolwa 01:01, 1 December 2006 (EST)

That's the typical convention for this sort of thing: most orcs (or at least the playable faction, which this article details) reside upon Azeroth, not the world of their evolution; their seat of government is in Azeroth, but does not consider itself a government-in-exile (as the draenei might be); they consider Durotar their true home now. Thus Azeroth is their homeworld, by way of Draenor. --Ragestorm 19:15, 30 November 2006 (EST)

I guess that could work if it said "homeworld", but it actually says "world of origin", which at least I consider being Outland. It was there that their race rose. I think this need to be discussed properly.--Odolwa 00:51, 8 December 2006 (EST)

To be honest, I was going by what most sci-fi sources use. We can always change it to "homeworld," I guess.--Ragestorm 19:52, 7 December 2006 (EST)

If we change it to "Homeworld" we could technically list all the worlds they relate themselves to.Baggins 19:55, 7 December 2006 (EST)

Yeah, "Azeroth, by way of Draenor." What other world (that we know of) do orcs live on?--Ragestorm 19:59, 7 December 2006 (EST)
Well, I meant there are still orcs that consider Draenor their homeworld, and some who would like to take it back (or should I specify "Outland") if they could. As well as Orcs who still live there. So both, Azeroth & Draenor (Outland) are considered "Homeworlds". I sure hope BC gives us the Orc's name for the world(I hope it isn't "Outland", LOL) :p...Baggins 20:05, 7 December 2006 (EST)
Should we just say "Azeroth (Horde), Draenor (original species, Mag'Har)" or something like that.
Note that even with whatever we decide here, the entry on Draenei remains the same.--Ragestorm 20:19, 7 December 2006 (EST)
Well ya if you get that specific it gets way to verbose.Baggins 21:06, 7 December 2006 (EST)

Trivia

"Warcraft: Orcs & Humans was originally supposed to be a Warhammer game".

I know the Warcraft setting was largely inspired by the Warhammer Fantasy setting, but this is the first time I've heard anything like that, if it is true I don't believe this is common knowledge, so citation is needed. --Korgo 05:02, 16 December 2006 (EST)

Agreed.--Ragestorm 10:18, 16 December 2006 (EST)

This is a common rumour but has never been proved to be true. It has also been discredited by the same rumour being spread about Starcraft having originally been a Warhammer 40k game. As such it is generally believed to nothing more than an unsubstantiated rumour on various Warhammer forums. --Smallpinkrabbit 14:51, 15 January 2008

Night Elf eye color change

"With night elves, exposure to druidic magic turns their eyes a golden amber colour instead of silver." As far as i know this is false, i've marked it as needing citation rather than remove it to give benefit of the doubt. --Zealtalkcontrweb 19:55, 24 January 2007 (EST)

[2] under the heading "silver eyes, golden eyes", towards the end of the article. I admit it's not an exact parallel, but it's relatively close. -_Ragestorm (talk · contr) 20:55, 24 January 2007 (EST)
Cool, didn't realize that. I really should give that thing a more thorough read :p Ty Ragestorm, added the link. --Zealtalkcontrweb 09:51, 25 January 2007 (EST)

Why is this in the Orc talk page?Mr.X8 23:18, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Orc eyes change as well.--SWM2448 23:25, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Skin colour

Okay, this is really confusing now. Why and how are fel orcs' skin red? Mannoroth or Magtheridon? In RotH the blood of a pitlord only made them green :/  Kirkburn talk contr 13:35, 26 January 2007 (EST)

Update: Zeal says - "Mannaorth blood first time (RotH) = Red eyes, bloodlust. Mannaroth blood the second time (WC3) = red flesh, blood lust, red eyes. Magetheridon blood = red flesh, blood lust, red eyes." Correct? If so, this page needs an update and so does fel orc.  Kirkburn talk contr 13:36, 26 January 2007 (EST)

Something about Mannoroth's blood was different the second time than the first. It would appear that it need not be Mannoroth's blood, but the blood of any high-level Pit Lord. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 14:36, 26 January 2007 (EST)
It's not just red skin either, the tusks and claws get more vicious, their ears stick out, and they have horned growths some places on their body. It could also be directly correlated to the amount of pit lord blood that is imbibed. The first time the orcs partook of it, it was spread thin across almost the entire Horde. The second time, the blood was concentrated in a small font and only Grom and his orcs drank from it, which would then give them higher amounts of pit lord blood per orc. They already had some in their system from before. The third time, only the remaining clans on Outland drank from Magtheridon's blood, and they've had a steady supply of it, again granting larger amounts per orc. ---- Varghedin.jpg Varghedin  talk / contribs 08:54, 27 January 2007 (EST)
I dunno about horn growths, but in all cases, their canines grew larger (and presumably nails too) and their body mass increased. --Zealtalkcontrweb 09:10, 27 January 2007 (EST)
They have very prominent horn growths along the jaw, the spine, the elbows and the knuckles. ---- Varghedin.jpg Varghedin  talk / contribs 11:37, 27 January 2007 (EST)

So, why is Thrall green, Gul'dan green, and are the Mag'har brown ? Grom hellscream is green on some pictures, but turns red later. probably because he consumed too much blood then ?  - CJ talk / cont  10:20, 20 February 2007 (EST)

The skin colour is passed down, all Azerothian Orcs are green skinned, as the generations before them were. As to Grom turning red, he was high on the demonic blood, he reverted back to his green skinned, red eyed form after he was saved. After Mannoroth was killed his (and presumably all Orcs who drank Mannoroth's blood) eyes turned back to normal too. --Zealtalkcontrweb 12:18, 20 February 2007 (EST)
Well, I can't say much about the Mag'har, they are never mentioned in Rise of the Horde, but I remember reading in some of the Mag'har quests that they are exiles who were seen unfit for battle by Blackhand. Most likely they were exiled to a place safe enough from fel magic and early enough before their skin turned green. The clans that took part in the Horde's wars weren't so lucky and so their skin turned green.
PRH 10:57, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Imo, green means they haven't drunk fel blood, red means they have (plus the other changes, similar to the eredar. Just look at KJ), and brown... well, they're coloured orcs, I suppose.--Frosti 21:33, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
*sigh* Read Rise of the Horde before speculating. It explicitly states that the natural skin color of ALL orcs on Draenor before corruption was brown.
PRH 11:49, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
The blood didnt turn there skin green the first tiem there skin turend green from exposer to demonic magic. --Vrall 19:01, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Another theory on skin colour: from various quests, it would seem like the mag'har are the survivors of something called the brown plague and that Blackhand simply exiled them from orc society to cull the weak from the strong. this would explain why the mag'har have brown skins (a lingering "scar" from the plague) as well as why Hellscreams own son was absent from the Warsong clan. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Diskordjah (talk · contr).

Age

How old does orcs get? Grom is 46, dont know how old Drek'Thar is but im pretty sure he aint young anymore, and remember seeing somewhere that Ner'Zhul started playing around with Kil'Jaeden 150 years ago, and its (not sure) about 1+ years ago he was made lich king by Kil'Jaeden so at that time he must have been quite old. -Rovdyr

Grom would be a fair few years over 125 when he died actually, probably around 140 to be more exact. If you want to know the more extreme of ages, look at Geyha and Bladefist. They both have to be in their 200's. Blizzard have never been too good with the concept of time and age.. >_> --Zealtalkcontrweb 19:48, 26 January 2007 (EST)
I should probably explain where that's from. It's generally all from the unofficial timeline and that we know Grom was only just maturing atleast 100 years ago from RotH. We also know Durotan, Geyha's son, was young and grew to maturity 100 years ago, so that would make her in her later life back then from RotH. Bladefist was also said to be old and past his time for an Orc 100 years ago in RotH. --Zealtalkcontrweb 19:56, 26 January 2007 (EST)
According to the RPG its mentioned that exposure to fel magic extends life. The gameplay (I.E. dice roll) age lists for the average lifespans for orcs, lists orcs as reaching old age at 65 and becoming at venerable age of 80 years approximately. So any orcs that have lived over 65-80 years have probably had their lives extended unnaturally due to exposure to fel magic. Baggins 15:08, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Orcs different colors...

At the moment in wow, the colors of the orcs are dark-green, green, brown and red. How come they got these colors? Did all the orcs from the beginning be brown, then they drank Mannoroths Blood and turned green? There is a problem with this The Frostwolf clan did never drink from the blood and they still became green, Also they did not spend much time with the rest of the orcs because they got exiled shortly after. So did the orcs that ventured through the dark portal become green? It should make sense because all corrupted orcs in Outland are red, uncorrupted brown —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Frejh (talk · contr).

Just, being exposed to fel magic from others using it, is enough to cause an orc to turn green. They turn red with continued drinking of Annihilan blood. Its apparently enough of a mutation that it can be passed on genetically as well. Its unclear why the Maghar are still brown considering they have been exposed to demonic forces and fel magics of the twisting nether for a long time.
As a funny side note the human timeline for orcs, as stated in a quest in The Burning Crusade, is that Green Orcs came first, then Red orcs, and finally the Brown Orcs. :).Baggins 14:37, 10 April 2007 (EDT)
I was under the impression that orcs were natural green and brown, just like humans have different natural skin colors and that the green orc tribes where the ones that became curopted while the brown orc tribes choose not to accociate with the demons--Reskar 14:42, 10 April 2007 (EDT)
Well according to Rise of the Horde they were originally brown, but when warlocks started summoning demons and using fel magic, it caused all orcs around the warlocks to start turning green, their old brown skin actually started to peel away. Later we know that children were born to newly green orcs, also green. Baggins 14:51, 10 April 2007 (EDT)
that happens to me too! my skin peels away and exposes red skin underneath when i'm exposed to the foul demonic rays of the sun!--Reskar 14:58, 10 April 2007 (EDT)
LOL, at least that isn't permanent, :P... Apparently once an orc turns green, they stay green for the rest of their life. It isn't easy being green. Anycase, orcs of different shades have been born since the initial green orcs, apparently including some browns, greys, various shades of green. Although most even if are brownish, or grey, still have a greenish tinge of some sort.Baggins 15:01, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Grudges

Orcs don't hold grudges? Not exactly. Just because the Forsaken and sin'dorei are part of the Horde doesn't really mean they don't hold grudges. It's a political stance, not a personal one. Not reverting, because I know it'll lead to an edit war.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 21:34, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

i'm not saying an orc never holds a grudge but on a whole they don't hold grudges against races. Orcs don't display any animoscity towards blood elves and forsaken Zarnks 23:35, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm removing it since its an opinion, and it doesn't hold up to facts. Its said in the lore that most of the horde only beGRUDGingly tolerate the forsaken, and most likely blood elves too.
"As the situation in Kalimdor grew bloodier, Sylvanas offered an alliance to Thrall, which he grudgingly accepted.[2] Thrall needed the alliance as much as the Forsaken did. Grudgingly, he accepted the Forsaken into the Horde."[3]
As a huge number of orcs, and other members of the Horde hold past grudges with the Alliance, and continue to attack them despite his orders not to. Granted Alliance is also at fault for not listening to Jaina, and holding long time fear and hatred of the Horde as well.Baggins 15:06, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Minor edits

I made several minor edits to fix historical errors in the article.

War Continues: Originally this said that Orgrim overthrew Blackhand because of his role in killing Durotan, but all of the sources I've read say that it was due to his role in corrupting the Horde. I'm not sure if the murder was sanctioned by Blackhand.

Gul'Dan's Folly: This previously said that Terenas hoped that the Orcs would lose their bloodlust and join the Alliance. While I remember it being said that he hoped they could be pacified, I think saying that he hoped for them to join the Alliance is a wee bit of a stretch.

Thrall's Rise: This part said that the captive orcs rallied behind their new warchief when he showed them the power of their shamanistic roots, but Thrall wasn't warchief at that time so I changed it to refer to the new horde.

The foundation of Orgrimmar: This said that Jaina's forces proved their loyality when they helped fight Admiral Proudmoore, but Jaina was the only human who directly stood against him. --Austin P 04:56, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

That first might have been information in ToD, in case you haven't read it. --Sky (t · c · w) 05:03, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Gender Discrimination

It says here that orcs don't discriminate by gender, but Cycle of Hatred mentioned that orc females are not allowed in the military. Lckyluke372 15:13: 13 October 2007 (UTC)

In-game though you can find female orc guards... Just a matter where lore and game mechanics don't match up. But ya you should probalby add that quote and a citation if you have it.Baggins 20:15, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

While I personally think that was out of character for Thrall, I thought we were meant to assume that Thrall implimented equality sometime after that conversation with Jaina.--Austin P 11:40, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Probably should change it to be safe, but the relationship that Durotan and Draka had with each other talked about sexual equality as a prime trait in a mate. Both he and Draka were fighters. It could just be a slice of how society worked in the Frostwolf Clan. -- Zexx 11:44, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I haven't got my books with me, I'm at college in Missouri, they're at home in Georgia. Lckyluke372 18:58, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Whatever the case, Draka certainly carried herself like an equal. Remember when she attacked Durotan when he forbade her to met Doomhammer with him?--Austin P 16:00, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I think Rise of the Horde implied that it could be different for different clans, however it also depended on specific events. Like the get together between the clans was on fairly equal terms for everyone.Baggins 16:12, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

This is explained ingame by the character Sergra Darkthorn. Until recently orc women were not able to hold military positions. Zarnks 03:48, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Classes

Added the necromancer for the rpg class, since after all, the necromancer artworkd does depict an orc.Tweak the Whacked 12:03, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Slavery

I'm pretty sure its illegal. The crimson ring is described as undeground commonly in the comic. Orcs in the books and games often express disgust for slavery. Zarnks 23:42, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to delete it if there are no complaints. Zarnks 08:46, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to do a little research. I remeber thinking the same but recently something gave me pause over the matter. I don't think this is going to be a black or white matter, but something dealin with shades of gray.Warthok Talk Contribs 09:05, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I think it should be noted that humans practiced slavery too. Infact I'd be surprised if it wasn't a common practice on azeroth.Tweak the Whacked 09:44, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Khadgar specifically mentions in TLG that humans don't take slaves (page 260), although Garona points out that they probably do, they just call them something else. Warthok is right about shades of grey- even if orcs took slaves, and referred to them as such (which they at least did in the past), orc slaves might be better treated than whatever the equivalent in human society, even if the word has been wiped out altogether. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 17:11, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Human "slaves" are most likely indentured servents. Not actualy slaves but as good as well. Peons are supposedly free now, but slavery doesnt seem to be entirely absent and not an uncommon practice. Certainly the presence of Reghar's team training in the middle of Orgrimmar and being kept in cages shows that, not to meantion Bloodeye's popularity. I think this most likely a issue with an official stance (illegal or heavily discouaged) and a different real situation (slavery still being practiced occassionaly). Thrall may realize theres only so much influence he can allot and turn a blind eye to the gladitorial slaves.
The Crimson Ring (and the matches at Dire Maul) is described as an underground gladitorial circuit, but not gladitorialism itself (Many gladiators are NOT slaves). Underground heavily implies illegal, but isn't absolute. Possibly the methods the Crimson Ring uses (lethal force, slaves) are what makes it illegal, if it is. Gladitoralism itself i believed is practiced openly in the valley of strenght so i don't think that it's illegal. I'll need to see a source for the slavery bit (there is no hidden riches quest), is it discouraged? has regulations? or has Thrall entirely outlawed it in all shapes and forms? Thrall insuring no orc fell into slavery may have meant of humans.
Regardless of any of this, whether slavery is illegal/legal/discouraged/encouraged/non-existant/etc... it is a reality for the horde and under no circumstance should the section be deleted Zarnks. Just adjusted for accuracy.Warthok Talk Contribs 17:51, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Now on the topic of slavery, the Blood Elves have leper gnome slaves, so does the Horde care since the lepers are a sub-race, or do they just not know?  IconSmall HighElf Male.gif Mr.X8 Talk Contribs 19:28, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Its possible they don't know. They're kept underground and hidden.Tweak the Whacked 19:33, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Its likely they don't know (By they i mean Thrall), or if they do can do little about it. The Horde may recognize Thrall as it's true leader but lets face it, races such as the forsaken and blood elves are not entirely under his control. With the issues of orc/horde law it seems more relevent to orc, troll, and tauren. And again theres a difference between official law and wha is actual reinforced.Warthok Talk Contribs 19:44, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
And this round goes to: Warthok!--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 23:42, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Orcs have critisized slavery in Lord of the Clans,Cycle of Hatred,and in the Syndicate questline. They are at least opposed to orc slavery Gladitorial tournaments are shown to be legal. Most of the comic likely takes place in the Ogrimmar's criminal underbelly at its a huge city. But there is no official word. Zarnks 01:43, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

"They" are the orcs involved in those specific encounters. I very much doubt that orcs as a species oppose slavery or any other concept- that just isn't possible. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 01:50, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Well of course not every single orc thinks the same. A large percentage if not the majority obviously hates it. Zarnks 20:05, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

The comic hasn't directly confirmed either side yet so it is all speculation at this point. If its going to stay we might as well have one for humans,dwarves,and both types of elves. Zarnks 05:06, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough, as long as you can convince me that the citations are relevant, objective and clear. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 05:12, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Well Humans have clearly praticed slavery on ogres and orcs as seen in Lord of the clans. They have also ogres and Furblogs as slaves. Both Blood elves and gnomes have used Leper gnomes as servents in poor working conditions. I think the Highborne night elves might have used slaves. Zarnks 05:22, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Cite, cite, cite! I also point out that what was seen in LotC were gladiators, not slaves, and internment camps don't count. While a gladitorial institution, in Earth history, usually requires slavery present, the two practices can be completely unrelated. Any human practice would, as stated above, not use the term. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 15:10, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

ToD states that the impisioned orcs were used as slave labor on atleast one occasion, building the monument to Lothar. I'd say the gladiators counted, while some of the human prisioners may have been able to buy their freedom, I doubt the ogre, orc, and troll slaves were afforded the same right.Tweak the Whacked 22:15, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

By ToD, I assume you mean Tides of Darkness? Page number, please? --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 14:53, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
I think it's the last page where Tura and Khad are joking about having statues one day.Warthok Talk Contribs 15:51, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Ah, we're on the same page (in this case, quite literally)... to harken back to Garona, however, notice that the term "slave" is not used. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 15:57, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

This case takes place well after Garona's statement. And her statement, if anything, reinforces that other races take slaves, they just call them something else. A rose by any other name smells just a sweet, and a slave by any other name is still a slave.Tweak the Whacked 23:52, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Weren't the orges slaves to orcs at one time? Snake.gifSssssssssssssssssssssssss Coobra sig3.gifFor Pony! (Sssss/Slithered) 01:30, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Ogres and orcs have kept eachother as slaves throughout history, however they joined the old horde willingly, though many were treated as slaves, Gul'dan for instance exploited their low intelligence for manual labor. Others were treated with respect, even as equals.Tweak the Whacked 02:37, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

<cough>Cho'gall<cough> I'm not saying that Garona's statement changes the situation, I'm saying that it adds a new headache to the situation. I also think that it's POV to refer consistently refer to slavery when the term isn't used (mentioning that the situation is essentially slavery once or twice is fine). If anyone would like to draft such a section for the humans and submit it for review, I think that would be fine. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 14:40, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

...or we could possibly create a slavery article, and have the various race pages link to it where its applicable. Yes, I don't know if anyone one brought it up directly. Thrall was not only a gladiator, he was a slave. Not that gladiators and slaves are much different considering both generally involve ownership of one person by another (by real world definitions of slave a gladiator would be a slave, if the gladiator is owned by another). His name was "thrall", which literally translates into "slave" in Common and English. To back this up further, quoting Brann, "Lord Aedelas Blackmoore, a cunning man, found the babe in the forest and took the orc child as a slave, naming him “Thrall.”"[4] The warcraft III manual states, that it was because he was enslaved that he vowed that there would be no more slavery again. This means that if slavery is reappearing then its a rather dark aspect within Horde society, even if it is hidden aspect of Horde society.Baggins 19:52, 1 January 2008 (UTC)


Orcs practiced slavery within each other. Peons were described as the lowest of the low dredges in orc society in the first WarCraft handbook. As far as I know this hasn't been retconned yet, but the implication is pretty clear that they were slaves. Peons were property and they had no rights. The orcs probably just called them something else, or considered slavery in a different light than other races. --- Zexx 20:36, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, actually to quote Brann, they aren't actually slaves although they are close to being slaves;

One area in which orcs might be seen as backwards is in their treatment of peons. The poor wretches! Orcs who fail to pass the tests of a warrior or shaman (or who have no desire to pass the test) often become peons. Peons are the lowest of the low in orc society. While they’re not technically slaves, they effectively fill that role (as peasants do in the Alliance). The lot of peons is so low that one of the tests of a new warrior is to sneak into the fields and use blackjacks to wake peons who are sleeping on the job![5]

Essentially Peons are freeorcs but they get bullied/bossed around by orcs with higher ranks in society.Baggins 20:40, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Additionally, the historical orc internment camps, were also known as "enslavement camps"[6] So yes the old Alliance was known for slavery. Its unclear how much slavery still goes on in the Alliance currently however.Baggins 20:45, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
I think that Baggins's suggestion of a separate article makes more sense that individual sections on each race, at the rate we're going (have the cows come home yet?). Apart from anything else, a long article wouldn't lead to people trying to clarify, reclarify and tweak until a section that should be two sentences takes up half the article (don't joke, I've seen it happen far too often). --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 01:15, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Yup, I agree. A seperate article on slavery should be better Warchiefthrall 22:21, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Orcs (playable)

Discussion on Talk:Orc (playable).Baggins 14:02, 9 January 2008 (EST)

Gladitorial slaves

Other then the comic where do you see this in the New Horde? The Example in the Alliance players guide seems to be goblin slavery not orc. Zarnks 07:17, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone have any reason why is shouldn't be labeled comic information? Zarnks 07:20, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I think the reason was the comic article header was removed was because the section isn't nessesarly just about the possibly occuring practice of slavery by orcs. Rather the section is about what they think of the overall theme of slavery, and includes a passage from the warcraft III manaual about Thrall and the decrying of slavery. I really dunno though. Kirkburn? Warthok Talk Contribs 07:22, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
Indeed. If it was all just from the comics, then it would be appropriate. As it was, it was a fairly obvious attempt to weasel word it by implying it was only found in one source and therefore dubious. Perhaps I am being too cynical? Kirkburn  talk  contr 07:24, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
Ah i wondered what you meant by weasel words. Well my personal opinions aside, policy dicates if it's an official soure it carries full weight.Warthok Talk Contribs 07:26, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

No one thinks pages with the WoW only title are dubious, so why would they think the comic only title was dubious? Anveena may be from the comic but she still effects the series as a whole.

The whole Jinxo thing is goblin slavery not New Horde Slavery. Probably a reference to Ratchets slave market. Zarnks 07:30, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I think he means the words in the article that were edited out made it seem dubious, not the comic title. The comic title was removed apparently because the article includes sources other than the comic.Warthok Talk Contribs 07:33, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
As Warthok says ... those titles apply to sections where all the content comes from one source, something untrue for this section. Kirkburn  talk  contr 07:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Did a little rewrite. References occoured to me as well but after seeing the way you had done em i changed em back that way.Warthok Talk Contribs 07:49, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Good rewrite. I did notice it was a bit disjointed before. Kirkburn  talk  contr 08:17, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Orc sayings?

Is there any reason to have this part? It doesn't seem to cite any sources and some of the "quotes" are quite out of date. It's not like many orcs in todays Warcraft would praise Mannoroth. As it is now the whole section seems irrelevant, confusing and even a bit fanfic-sounding. Gruul (talk) 19:19, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll agree that they seem out dated, but as for a source, they're from the Horde Player's Guide, page 138 regarding orcish culture. So, not fanfiction.Tweak the Whacked (talk) 04:13, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Slavery

Already has its own article. Do we really need to be this redundant?


Please Confirm.

I have heard that orcs can smell who you are. Senario: 1 is walking in ogrimmar he is a bandit and guard 2 smells him the guard know hes a criminal but hes in a discuse. But Guards sells 1 so he grabs him. This Senario is abit weard but can orcs smell you? kainda like a dog? TerrorBlades (talk) 19:24, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

First of all, this is not a forum. Second, I've never heard that.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 04:03, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Orcs can smell you, and tell the difference between, say, a human, a draenei, and an elf, but they wouldn't be able to identify and individual by scent.Skreeran (talk) 01:41, September 11, 2009 (UTC)
Incorrect. Durotan could tell a mysterious, shadowy figure was Orgrim before he could see his face or distinguish armor pieces, meaning once they get to know someone, they can remember their scent just as well as their appearance. "Then the wind shifted and he laughed as he caught Orgrim's scent." -Rise of the Horde, pg. 109. Cannibeans (talk) 23:16, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Orc Blood

I've read in soem sources (for instance Of Blood and Honor) that Orc blood is red, while in others, Orc blood is reffered to as Black (for instance, one of Admiral Proudmoore's qotes from WCIII) can someone tell me which is right? --"The Scourge shall prevail!" - Scourge-Lord Morec (talk) 15:35, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I think every Warcraft game dropped the ball there yes. The black blood could clearly be seen in a WC3 Cutscene and in several others cases mentioned either in-game or in novel, but in other sources and in-game they have shown to have red blood. Again i think Blizzard just let the black blood thing be since it would be to much like Lord of the Rings, as inorks have black blood to. (talk)

It's possible that it varies from individual to individual, based on, say, personal level of demonic corruption. Perhaps lesser corrupted orcs (like Durotan, Orgrim, Thrall, the Mag'har, etc.) have red blood while orcs who drakn the demon blood have black, or vice versa. I'd say with the conflicting sources, it's up to personal preference which you believe.Skreeran (talk) 01:45, September 11, 2009 (UTC)

Physical polymorphism

If we take all the orcs' representations over the various games and other sources into account, shouldn't we conclude that orcs really come in all shapes and sizes, rather than the cookie-cutter way they're portrayed in World of Warcraft? This has always bugged me that people think male orcs are all hulking hunchbacks and females are all... less hulking, and upright. I've noted some examples for consideration, and my conclusions are below.

Posture: Grom Hellscream - he stands perfectly upright in artwork and in Warcraft III, where he both has his own model and is shown in the orc cinematic. Thrall - Thrall is also shown to have perfect/human-ish posture in Warcraft III, as well as most artwork since then. I assume that his in-game incarnation in WoW was the inspiration for the contradicting art - this seems to be very common among artists that don't actually work for Blizzard (Sons of the Storm), and are contracted for TCG or draw the comics. Grunts - Grunts in all games have been shown as hunchbacked to various degrees, with the exception of female grunts in WoW. Peons - In written lore, peons are the most hunchbacked of all orcs due to their back-breaking labour. Raiders - Hunched in Warcraft 1 (according to the artwork, and dubiously in-game), upright in Warcraft 3. They are shown in a few cases in-game to be upright, such as in Warcraft 1 and Warcraft 3. Rexxar - Although a half-ogre, Rexxar appears to have gained his notable hunch from his orcish ancencestry, as Ogres are not generally shown as hunched.

Overall - Orcs in Warcraft 1 - In the in-game art they have a slight hunch, but far less than in WoW. Griselda, the female orc, appears to stand straight, as do all male orcs, with the very noticeable exception of grunts. Orcs in Warcraft 2 - More noticable hunch in-game, but most human units also appears hunchbacked and broadshouldered, notably the peasant and footman. In the cinematics, grunts are shown alternatively as standing upright and hunched. In one cinematic Ner'zhul, being the only Orc shown that isn't a grunt, stands perfectly straight. Orcs in Warcraft 3 - Orcs appear to stand straight more than they are shown hunchbacked. The Shaman stands straight, as does the Far Seer, Wind Rider, Raider and Peon. The Grunt (to a small, perhaps arguable degree), as well as the ancient Stormreaver units are the only Orcs shown to be hunchbacked.

Size and physique:

Grom - Universally shown as tall with herculean muscules. Peon - Universally shown as small, with varying degrees of musculature; almost always less than that of other orcs, even spellcasters such as Warcraft 3's Shaman. Peons in WoW are also generally shown as much smaller than their warrior counterparts. Grunts - Generally shown with the hulking muscles seen in WoW's male orcs. Far Seers - Warcraft 3's Far Seers are shown as very lean and wiry, both in-game and in their concept art. This is a marked difference from the Shaman and Ner'zhul's appearance in Warcraft 2, another caster, both shown as highly muscular. Obviously this difference in physique is not due to age; Saurfang likely has at least the physique of a younger warrior, and nor is it due to being a spellcaster.

Conclusions:

If we take all that into account as equal lore, most orcs do not have a noticable hunch, even if they are represented that way in World of Warcraft. The model for male orcs in WoW seems to have been based on the grunt; the stereotypical, but not average, orc. Despite the wide variety of orc sizes and physiques in lore, Blizzard was obviously restrained for budgetary and time decisions (as is obvious due to the ammount of the world at first inaccessible) and chose to make it the cookie-cutter mold for all male orcs. It could therefore be considered non-canonical, which is the conclusion I draw - male orcs are not always as muscular or tall as the WoW model (as such, the same almost surely applies to female orcs). Blood Elves may have a seperate model for their city guards, but this is clearly an inelligant choice, disregarding gender, skin colour, differences in armour etc. A choice to have two or more different models for orcs would also leave orc warriors unable to use the grunts' model. Furthermore, it is far more time consuming to animate a new skeleton than to make a new model with the same skeleton (see Garrosh Hellscream and Thrall's new model with Cataclysm resembling little beyond their facial structure to Grom Hellscream, or Thrall's incarnations in Warcraft 3 or in art). Exercise and muscle building is probably more of a cause of the hulking physiques of most Orcs that any biological disposition towards growing muscles through puberty, for instance. As an additional conclusion, the sexual dimorphism of orcs is infact less that the article states - it is the orcs' racial polymorphism that is most responsible for their various physical differences between orcs. It is plausible that a male peon outwardly has more in common with a female peon than he does with Saurfang or Thrall.

The orc on the cover of Warcraft 1 has the most extreme differences from WoW's orcs... On a closer inspection, he has horns. No, not coming out of his helmet, but visibly protruding from his skull. His ears are also tufted, and are pointed forwards. This is intriguing, and could be explained in a number of ways: perhaps he is a rare kind of orc, or perhaps this is a view of an orc a set period after becoming a fel orc on Draenor - he has lost his red skin hue by now, but the demonic horns and spikes of a fel orc have remained (perhaps to drop off later). This is particularly appealing, as while Fel Orcs in WoW have varying degrees of demonic features, old orcs like Grom and Saurfang who first drank the blood of Mannoroth show no sign of this corruption beyond their green skin, and Mannoroth's blood was likely even more potent than that used to corrupt the modern orcs of Outland - Magtheridon's.

Hell, I wrote a bloody essay. Thoughts, comments? I'll leave this open for discussion for a bit before thinking of adding this conclusion to the article.Weasel (talk) 09:04, 9 June 2011 (UTC)


Making Comparisons to Huns in Trivia

I'm not sure how backed this is by whomever in Blizzard, but I've seen this on here for a long while, and wanted to give my insight on it. My reason for this is not to babble on about Huns, or say "Ur rong, orcs in't hunz", but to give reason to why it'd be omitted from the article.

For reference, I'll re-post what is stated; "Orcish culture and history has several similarities to the culture and history of the Huns: - They both invaded a new continent and shattered the whole life of the inhabitants. - Both reached the capital city of this continent (Rome and Stormwind). - Both were later pushed (nearly) completely back into their own land."

For the first point, the Hunnish people had been in Europe for some time before they were noticed by the Romans, who would go on to document the attacks. They were also a multi-ethnic group of peoples, despite what some 18th century individuals said (whom approximated them to Mongols, a group that would not come about until far after the Huns had come and gone, and likely were bias due to the relations with Asia as a whole at the time). Attila is seen as a cultural icon and historical hero in Germany, Austria, and Hungary. Something more to state is that Attila himself was sent by his father to Rome as part of a sort of "exchange"- a Roman tactic to keep any potential threats in check by holding someone of importance- and Rome-Hunnish relations were relatively steady before his eventual reign. If not for this, Attila would have likely not been as aggressive towards the Romans.

The Huns did, as the orcs in Warcraft to Stormwind, push into Rome and attack the capital city, and sack it, but as for being pushed back, that's where the similarities end. At the time the Romans had only managed to defeat the Huns once, at the Catalaunian fields, albeit at great cost. Since then, Attila had changed his forces from nomads brought together in a fighting force to an armored, trained, and disciplined army. The eventual leave from Rome was more due to them being slowed down by their plunder and the Roman diseases that were causing more trouble than the Romans.

The Huns were not some invading force from Asia, and so not "invading a new continent". They may have made it to Rome, but they left by their own will. The idea is neat, and it's actually what first got me interested in the Huns, I'll be honest, but it's simply not accurate. If anyone wants to make comparisons to anything, I'd say the Mongols. That, or the Napoleonic French Empire, or possibly even the Zulu Empire. PssvBrzrkr (talk) 05:53, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

History section

The "History" section is confusing. Parts of "Early history" happened during and near the end of Rise of the Horde. And the part about Ner'zhul exchanging service to the Legion in exchange of power is completely wrong. Ner'zhul opposed Kil'jaeden when he learned the truth. It was Gul'dan who accepted the exchange. According to the novel Rise of the Horde, they didn't drink Mannoroth's blood until the war had gone on for over 2 years. It was not the precursor to starting the war.

"The Rise of the Horde" section also has errors in it. The war did not last a few decades, it lasted 3 years at most. It was only a few months since the start of the war before KJ taught the orcs warlock magic; and over a year from the start of the war that he taught them to summon demons. It was nearly 2 years of fel exposure before the warlocks turned green. At the meeting where they drank Mannoroth's blood, Gul'dan says, "We have advanced further in skills and technology in the last two years than we have in two centuries," referring to warlock magic. They then immediately sack Shattrath after drinking the blood. Then it was half a year before they finished building the Dark Portal. -Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 21:10, 23 December 2013 (UTC)