Talk:Blood elf/Archive2

Sunfury?
Just wondering, does anyone think it would be a good idea to have an article on the outland blood elves in a similar fashion to this one?. As it appears to me anyway, the outland belfs are pretty much a seperate faction/race in all but name. It might also help new folk to blood elves to STOP calling all us belf players demon sucking evil dooers just because the sunfury in the draenei areas and in outland are naughty baddies. Just an idea/suggestion to consider. --Nurizeko

New Section
Added a "Notable Blood Elves" section; some races have one, others don't, so I thought it seemed sensible to provide the blood elves with one now that they're coming out as a playable race. --Pure.Wasted 17:52, 30 September 2006 (EDT)

Spelling
I'm going to edit the article to maintain consistency with the official websites. Blood Elf will become blood elf, as it should all over the wiki (and as I have already done with draenei). You may berate me after this line :) -- Kirkburn 14:57, 14 August 2006 (EDT)

Oh, and I'll add a big red sign saying 'don't you dare turn me back!' liek I did with the draenei. We should also really be doing this to all references to class type (rogues, shamans, etc), as they are also incorrectly capitalised. And high elves. Well, it's a lot of work to be done. Join me in the edit war! -- Kirkburn 15:01, 14 August 2006 (EDT)


 * On the same topic, the page should be moved to Blood elf, but I shan't do that yet. -- Kirkburn 16:20, 14 August 2006 (EDT)


 * As is most likely obvious, I have just completed the move :) Next up, ngiht elves. Thanks to those making sure the race names stay correct! -- Kirkburn 10:46, 21 August 2006 (EDT)

I've put up a vote to make lower-case race names the standard policy. Wowpedia talk:Writing policy--Aeleas 14:15, 21 August 2006 (EDT)

Well, all this is strange, since when you mark a Blood Elf in-game it saids "Blood Elf (class)" with both words starting with a capital letter. How do you explain that?--Odolwa 23:22, 29 November 2006 (EDT)

Because it's a title and all titles are capitalized. In quest dialogues and such you will see species an races spelled in undercase.--Grid 17:54, 29 November 2006 (EST)


 * So who voted? 12 year olds who can't spell? Of course its Blood Elf not blood elf.

(Get a character signing link like wikipedia or add another character as shortcut)

I concur, its quite obviously Blood Elf, peoples, places, races, in the english language put a big emphasis on Capitalizing the first letter in a name. I am no grammar junkie but even I know this. Examples, "England" "Vietnamese" "Johnston". While its true sin'dorei can be spelt however Blizzard want it, they don't have authority to undo the rules and regulations that govern the proper use of English. --Nurizeko

Opening paragraph
Is there any reason why the opening paragraph of this article is all in italics with lines around it? I think just a standard intro is cleaner.--Aeleas 20:35, 22 August 2006 (EDT)


 * Meh. I think basically ALL BC topics have something like that. And after a second look, ALL races have that. Or the ones I bothered to check. It's just a small blurb anyways. Pzychotix 21:16, 22 August 2006 (EDT)


 * I'd say italic intros are fairly common around the wiki. But the horizontal separator lines are not, and, in my opinion, they look quite bleh.   --Mikk 05:23, 23 August 2006 (EDT)

Introduction and History
This section has some points that don't make sense. First of all, what does "Most of what was left of Quel'thalas was burned down by the High Elves, in an effort to give the scourge a psychological victory and leaving the few High elves left who were making their last stand on Sunstrider isle" mean? Does the author mean the High Elves were trying to deny the Scourge a victory? And what source is he/she getting this from? Second, this history ignores the bifurcation between the Blood Elves of Quel'thalas and the Blood Elves of Outland - as the WoW history page on the Blood Elf notes, Kael took a bunch of warriors with him but left behind the rest of his people. These Blood Elves never encountered the naga, or Illidan, or the draenei, and didn't go to Outland or Icecrown. This is an especially important point in the storyline because it sets up a division between Lor'themar's Quel'thalas-based elves, and Rommath/Kael's Outland-based Elves.

The follow-up history section also lacks sources. I know for a fact that Blood Elf zones have Forsaken allied NPCs in them, quests involving the Forsaken's assistance, and a quest where you visit Sylvannus, etc. However, unless it's grounded in lore or in-game, I think it needs to be left out.

EDIT: Likewise, this new Uneasy Trusting section lacks foundation. I further wouldn't characterize Lor'themar Theron and Halduron Brightwing as Sylvannus loyalists. Vikingkingq

They aren't. Loth'remar's relationship with Sylvanus is still unknown, but his devotion to Kael'thas is obviously well documented. Although we can't make any firm judgments, I did edit those parts dealing with their relation with each other. I doubt they like each other but from what we know in-game, they can atleast tolerate each other enough to create instantaneous travel between the Undercity and Silvermoon, which takes an enormous amount of trust on each faction leader's part. From what we learn of Halduron Brightwing in the Sunewll trilogy we can pretty safely assume he grudgingly buys into drawing from fel magic to feed because there is no other alternative, and he keeps Anveena's true nature a secret.

I've adjusted most of the history to reflect this. I also added in why blood elves are the way they are and how it characterizes them at the end of the culture stub, and all the posts about their controversy bar the Paladin stub were authored by me.

Could whoever is adding that addendum of how warriors didn't have a place in quel'dorei/sin'dorei society please give me good backing on it? Because as I recall the elves were not shy in the slightest about using men in armor, and forest fighting in fantasy and in actual history does NOT put disfavor upon armored men.

Armor is armor no matter where you go, and it's always an advantage. Even in water, granted it won't be deep.--Grid 10:44, 10 November 2006 (EST)

Playable Race Section
Do not add more Blood Elf Warrior, "comments" to this page they are flooding it, Blood Elves dont have Warriors it should be mentioned once or twice thats all thats needed. Explanations like that in "Lore and Gameplay Reasoning Behind the Elimination of Blood Elf Warriors" and the classes note should be enough to explain to people why they do not have Warriors if more comments about this are added I will delete them on site. Thank you for your time and understanding. Solare


 * "Blood elves are the physically weakest out of all the races of the Horde. The orcs, trolls and tauren are far superior to them in size, weight, strength and speed, each in different but always superior degrees for the respective races. So logically for blood elves, who are also the world's greatest arcanists and a culture where all blood elves from all walks of life are proficient in magic, their melee soldiers would supplant their abilities with their far superior affinity and grasp of magic than the other Horde races."


 * Like I keep adding, Paladins wield huge, heavy swords, maces, and shields, and wear plate armor. This doesn't explain why Blood Elves do not get Warriors (with all due respect, is ONLY because of balancing). -AzraelOpacus


 * Paladins are not warriors, however. They have the power of the Light to aid them, for example. In any case - the point of the section is to explain why don't don't have warriors over any of the other choices. Warriors make least sense for BE to have as an option, not that they don't deserve or have them at all. So what if paladins make as little sense as warriors to you - whether or not they got paladins was never an issue, as they are a big part of the new lore. Blizzard had to make a choice between warriors and hunters, and hunters make more sense. It's all relative ...


 * In response to Solare, while I support your view, please do not become too protective of the section of the article :) -- Kirkburn (talk) 10:30, 7 September 2006 (EDT)


 * I agree with Azrael on this one; the paragraph's current wording implies that blood elves couldn't be warriors, or that they would make inferior ones, but that's not the case. It's simply not a playable race/class combination.  The paragraph which follows also indicates that they don't have a strong warrior tradition, yet high elven swordsmen were a very common unit in War3.--Aeleas 14:02, 7 September 2006 (EDT)


 * Think of it this way: There ARE blood elven warriors, but you just can't play them because a) Their numbers may be too few and b) Blizz felt like it. =p --Kakwakas 15:11, 7 September 2006 (EDT)


 * Exactly, which makes the paragraphs attempting lore-based explanation regarding the lack of BE warriors not only speculative, but incorrect.--Aeleas 16:17, 7 September 2006 (EDT)


 * Having reviewed the section, it does not (and does not mean to) suggest that blood elven warriors do not exist. They do. However, there are likely more blood elven hunters, and they are more appropriate for where Blizzard wishes to take WoW. Blood elven warriors are probably quite good, but blood elves as a race are not predisposed to it, so fewer would gravitate towards such a life. To compare this to real life, look at who wins long-distance running - people from certain areas of the globe are better prepared for running due to their genes - this doesn't suggest there are no amazing european runners, for example, but that there are fewer.
 * Aeleas, in WC3 warriors/grunts are the main soldiers of the forces and it would be to disruptive to the gameplay to alter that, whether or not it is accurate. I would also be interested what sections you feel are incorrect?
 * Just to make this clear - the lore reasoning is suggesting why warriors are less appropriate, it is not saying at any point that warriors do not exist or are useless. In conclusion, I see no problem with the section, but have added a note to make it clear that it is not suggesting BE warriors are non-existant. -- Kirkburn (talk) 16:18, 7 September 2006 (EDT)


 * I find the entire thrust of the second and third paragraphs of the section to be misleading and unfounded. There is no evidence that BE are not predisposed to being warriors, that they would be weaker than an undead warrior, or as I said above that there wasn't a strong warrior-like tradition.  The fact that high eleven swordsmen may have been demanded by gameplay mechanics in War3 doesn't invalidate the fact that they were included.
 * I haven't seen any lore-based explanation for why BE warriors aren't playable from Blizzard, so I don't see any reason for us to invent one, or even assume there is one.--Aeleas 16:28, 7 September 2006 (EDT)


 * Okay, I see where you're coming from. I still don't think it is really inaccurate - we know the high elves are weakened, and the blood elves get their power (to bring them above the high elves) from magic. Warriors in WoW do not use magic to any great extent, which should suggest that they would not get as much of this strength. Regarding the idea of them being proficient as rangers - this is pretty evident from everything we know, and I'm not sure why you disagree with it :/
 * To your second point, I have altered the title to better explain the section ("Suggested..."). And though we may not have heard an exact reason from Blizzard, they have told us that they felt hunters were more appropriate - the section aims to suggest why they would have felt this. -- Kirkburn (talk) 18:32, 7 September 2006 (EDT)


 * I didn't object to the fourth paragraph which explains their skill at being rangers. I'm content with the section as it is; while it does stray into speculation, the title now reflects this as per WW:LORE.  Still, to my mind everything after the second sentence could be covered by the sentence "The Hunter class is the best match for continuing the tradition of high elven rangers and archers, which been have portrayed in the past as more central to the race than melee fighters."  Getting into their alleged weakness (a warrior could be strong with demonic energy, just as he was presumably strong with the energy of the Sunwell in the past), discussions of the ruggedness of the terrain, orc warlocks in Orgrimmar etc. doesn't, for me, add anything beyond that initial statement.--Aeleas 18:58, 7 September 2006 (EDT)


 * To be perfectly honest, I don't think that most of the fourth paragraph belongs either. Unless anyone can come up with a convincing reason why that paragraph (the most speculative part or the section) soon, I shall remove much of it. -- Kirkburn (talk) 19:15, 7 September 2006 (EDT)


 * At the very least, that paragraph has some major wording issues. From the very start, it sounds speculative and apologetic. It needs to be better worded/editted. Pzychotix 00:33, 8 September 2006 (EDT)


 * I've never read anywhere that the Holy Light gives a bunch of supposed (since there were High Elven Knights in WC3) weaklings enough strength to wield Ashkandi. The paragraph is just a bunch of bull made up to justify Blizzard's decision lore-wise, when there was none to begin with! -AzraelOpacus


 * Woah, it was a suggestion, as is the section itself (as is noted in the title, if you would kindly take a look). And no, there were reasons for the choice, because it was made wasn't it? They felt hunters were more appropriate, and the section is attempting to suggest why. In addition, you completely ignored my explanation earlier of why it doesn't prevent any classes existing for any races. For god's sake, listen, please!
 * Since the fourth paragraph is rattlign nerves and causing less-than-critical thought, I'll see what I can do about it now. -- Kirkburn (talk) 16:12, 8 September 2006 (EDT)


 * Everyone is thinking it, I'm just saying it: It is obvious that Blood Elves would get every non-nature caster class. They would get Warlocks, Mages, and Priests because they're magic users.  It was also necessary to give them Pallies, because the decision was made to give each faction the other faction's class.  At this point, you have 2 open spots for Blood Elves.  They won't be shamans or druids because they have no appreciation for nature.  That leaves Rogues, Hunters, and Warriors.  If you don't give them rogues then you've imbalanced the horde because they already have the only class that can't be a rogue.  That leaves Warriors, and Hunters.  The weight against warriors was overwhelming... horde has no shortage of warriors already, and giving elves the archery class probably appealed to Blizzard's marketing team... Piroko 13:48, 11 September 2006 (EDT)


 * I'm just wondering, Lore wise, Why they have rogues.--D3115 19:21, 19 October 2006 (EDT)


 * Because they can ! They're swift, they're cunning, they're somehow dark enough to be assassins, they're called "Blood" Elves, and so said Blizzard.-- K )  (talk) 19:30, 19 October 2006 (EDT)

I just discovered this disucssion page, and let me hop in and say this first.

I am the guy who wrote all the stubs about why blood elf warriors are NOT found in the Horde, in the sense we know them as. All rank-and-file blood elf warriors are in touch with magic in some sense, such as the Blood Knights or Spellbreakers, and obviously being the only race who could play a Spellbreaker would be highly debilitating. Alot of it was guesswork on my part, but its a part of lorecrafting in my opinion, and if the connections are firm then its fact. I'll walk you guys through my logic, and feel free to interpret however you want if you see holes in my argument.

All blood elves need magic now more than ever since the absence of the Sunwell. Part of relieving their addiction involves using magic on a daily basis as well as feeding from it. Therefore, the complete elimination of 'regular' warriors from blood elf society. How do rogues and hunters fit in then?

Because you don't need to be exceptionally powerful to be a hunter or a rogue. If you look up any WarCraft RPG book, you will find that the blood elves ARE certainly the most physically inferior race out of all the Horde races. Their weaknesses compared to trolls, orcs and taurens are already immediately obviously. The Forsaken may not be so obvious, until you realize that the Forsaken have no need to breath air (Adjust to very big breath in-game as a balancing measure), their muscles never flag or tire and many Forsaken warriors are imbued with unholy strength in their dead tendons.

But basically, it comes down to a gameplay decision. Period. Blood elf hunters, in Blizzard's opinion and probably mine and most of yours, are simply a much more interesting play choice than a blood elf warrior. Nothing in the stubs I made are saying that blood elves CAN'T be warriors. Even a murloc can be a warrior. But would they be good ones, especially if they have essentially nothing special to offer compared to other far superior warriors in their faction? Probably not. And probably why they would depend on their strengths in lending to the war effort - magic classes, agility classes, etc.--Grid 11:06, 10 November 2006 (EST)

I've done some digging around and I think I've found a possible explanation for the 'no warrior' issue for the blood elves. If you look at their official race history in chapter five, Kael'thas took the healthiest of his warriors and joined the campaign against the Scourge. So, this probably meant that the stronger, more physically able-bodied blood elves had joined Kael'thas and are now probably in Outland. Those left behind were the ones more severely affected by the loss of the Sunwell, most likely magic users (Priests, Mages, Warlocks, etc.). As for Rogues and Hunters, their presence can be explained through the group known as Farstriders, who're often away from Quel'thalas hence weren't there during the initial massacre and when Kael'thas returned. This is not to say that the Silvermoon blood elves don't have warriors but as far as a playable class goes, there are too few of them since most of them are in Outland with Kael'thas. -- mr. peasant 21:00, 14 November 2006, (GMT)


 * Thanks for the addition, but I think this topic is dead at this point. I have two reasons. 1) The sentence "this does not mean that blood elven warriors may not exist in the Warcraft universe, only that they are not a playable class" is a catch-all for the problems this might create with lore. So, all lore reasoning to support why warriors are not playable for blood elves are simply invalid. 2) The rest of the section, though plausible, is speculative, emphasizing notions such as culture, terrain, tradition, etc. that don't necessarily need to be emphasized because of the first statement. In my opinion, we shouldn't spend any more time on this, since it's quite possible the folks at Blizzard could change their mind anyway at some point in the future, invalidating the entire section. 16:31, 14 November 2006 (EST)

The whole "culture doesn't favor armored men" stuff is a load of garbage. Anyone who asserts that armored soldiers are liabilities in a wooded fight... Please. Go into the woods and have your friend wear armor and you wear nothing and start swinging at each other with swords, and lets see who wins. We've all seen high elven warriors and we all know they're very common, but also it is our job to construct lore around a gameplay decision - e.a, why suddenly night elves of both genders can pursue the path of being a druid OR warrior. That said - I defend my previous statements of why they are not found as a playable class in the Horde, and if your argument is that this is speculation (Even if you were to argree with me that it's pretty good speculation in my opinion), then where does the information of Sylvanas and Loth'remar being buddy buddy come from?--Grid 03:43, 15 November 2006 (EST)


 * The Wc3 game mechanic is also garbage. Night Elves' main Grunt/Footman unit was the Archer. The weakest, but easiest to mass, and was also ranged. The High Elves got this as ranged (i.e. Headhunter/Rifleman), and got the Human Footman as their main melee unit renamed the 'Swordsman' and using the 'Captain' model. So there. The whole game mechanic thing is a load of bull. The reason is Blizz got lazy and decided to make High Elves a simple mix of Humans and Night Elves. Saimdusan 02:32, 7 December 2006 (EST)

Horde Relationships
I am wary of the "Relationships with the Other Horde Races" part of the article. Where did this information come from? I don't want to change it back myself just incase but it looks like something made up. Also I think someone needs to take time to touch up the layout of the page, it is getting messy. --Pigzig 08:50, 8 September 2006 (EDT)


 * From various sources and inferred information. There are many lore books that probably dictate this relationship, and obviously some speculated information too, but for the most part, it's decent enough. Pzychotix 05:35, 8 September 2006 (EDT)


 * I disagree, this isn't anything on blizzards site or books and unless proven needs the boot. Just look at it, obviously fan written. --Pigzig 17:48, 11 September 2006 (EDT)


 * Even if it's not all official information, the info I believe is based mostly off the assumptions of the core race at hand. Out of all the relationship paragraphs, only the Orc one could be seen as "made up". The Tauren and Troll relationships aren't even Blood Elf specific; they're statements about those races that really wouldn't matter if it were random aliens. Finally, the Blood Elf - Forsaken relationships only stated the facts of the matters that occurred between the two factions. That certainly wouldn't be "made up". Pzychotix 23:04, 13 September 2006 (EDT)


 * I would agree that it is written in a rather authoritative tone without having any sort of source to back it up. If it is speculative or conjecture, it should be labelled as such, and preferably moved to another article, as per WW:LORE.--Aeleas 02:02, 14 September 2006 (EDT)


 * Well, after days of it annoying me I decided to remove it from the page myself. If anyone wants to contest can you give us some proof? --Pigzig 01:34, 17 September 2006


 * It wasnt all made up, however. Some of it is obviously true, like the fact that the elves and trolls had been at odds, and the blood elves and forsaken may hate eachother due to scourge/high elves. from my memory, it didnt specifically state "forsaken and blood elves hate one another!", it simply said that in the past they had. same with trolls. From what we know (that blizzard has stated) the orcs let them into the horde because the blood elves are much like the orcs were; under demonic control.
 * What we DO know is that the blood elves are in the horde, but the kael blood elves are not, to the best of our knowledge, in any way. The forsaken and the blood elves hated eachother in the past, and given its only been 3 and a half years, it is entirely possible they may still hate them. the trolls, despite being a completely different race of trolls, were the elves mortal enemies for millenia, and some of that may still linger on. the orcs were under demonic control, and the blood elves are to a small extent. the tauren want harmony in all things, and demonic magic certainly isnt harmonious. and its pretty obvious how they feel about the humans(who they hate) night elves(who hate them), and at least how some of the blood elves view the draenei(as followers of the naaru, simple tools for their power)--Haddon 03:55, 21 September 2006 (EDT)

I'm going to take contention to one point mentioned above, specifically the "troll relationship not being blood elf specific." The trolls and high/blood elves hate each other. They've hated each other for a long time and they continue to hate each other today. They both evolved from a common stock, but throughout history from the days when the highborn were exiled, they've competed for the same territories; the elves trying to drive out the trolls, and the trolls resisting. Honestly, their relationship is not much different then the Israeli-Palestine conflict, or the Irish-English conflict. They simply hate each other because they've been hating each other as long as the current generation can remember (the elves DO have generational turnover thanks to warfare). Of course, that animosity can be overcome for a common clause, although without the Orcs and Tauren it wouldn't work. Now, the Forsaken on the other hand... well, I find the forsaken being in horde to be a little over the top. They should have gotten goblins instead. The forsaken are anti-life. They're openly and actively trying to kill all life on Azeroth (human and non-human alike) and the horde simply can't be so obvilivious as to not be aware of it. For the blood elves, their bretheren who fell to the scourge ARE dead. They aren't good beings beset with evil... they are evil incarnate residing in the flesh of good people now deceased. Any good will the forsaken might harbor must obviously (to their eyes) be a deception to further their aims of obtaining whatever powers the highborn have obtained and kept from the scourge. By all rights the Silvermoon npc guards should cut down any forsaken that approach silvermoon, while humans and their allies would be regarded with angry contempt but not outright murderous hatred. Piroko 12:35, 25 September 2006 (EDT)

I thought this needed mention: the aforementioned sindo-troll feud is only true from the blood elven faction, and even then is debatable. Not only have the high elves and jungle trolls never met prior to now (on a large scale; apart from the Battle of Hyjal, of course), the blood elven grudge against them would be entirely baseless. It's the Amani trolls they've been fighting for thousands of years, and while "trolls are trolls" the two are very distinct, physically and through their mindset. Just as it's been argued time and time again that only stupidity and ignorance is provoking the orc vs. human conflict to continue at this point, there could be hostile feelings from the blood elves (entirely from ignorance) toward the jungle trolls of the Horde; however, as they are attempting to join the other races, this forces them to listen to the trolls' explanation of their 'angle' of things, so to speak (the two have no reason to be at odds; these trolls only want peace, relatively speaking), and the two should have no trouble overstepping their differences. --Pure.Wasted 17:42, 30 September 2006 (EDT)


 * Not only taht, but the blood elves ARE NOT THE HIGH ELVES. they were decimated by the scourge, who the forsaken are not a part of, and most of them either never were, or were after quel'thalas fell anyway. the blood elves may be physically they same, but their minds are no longer the same at all. they are not the same culture.
 * And the blood elves hating the trolls and forsaken would be like the entire american society hating people from india, because their skin to close to the color of middle-easterners, some of which attacked america...the jungle trolls never fought the high elves. the forsaken never fought the high elves. there is only speculation as to them hating eachother.--Haddon 17:55, 1 October 2006 (EDT)

Let me do a summary on the Blood Elves' relationship with the Horde's races Orcs: Distrust and Unfriendly. Most Orcs probably hate Elves and most Elves probably hate Orcs. Remember, the Orcs razed forests in and around Quel'Thalas during the Second War. Orcs probably hated Elves for killing many of them using magic and arrows and stuff. It is only under special circumstances and Thrall's goodwill that the Blood Elves managed to join the Horde. Trolls: Curiosity and Distrust. Elves and Amani Trolls have been killing each other for ages but for the first time, the Blood Elves are actually looking face to face with a different breed of trolls. Some will be friendly, some will sterotype trolls as a whole. Tauren: Curious and slightly friendly. Blood Elves and Tauren have never met prior to the Third War. The Blood Elves have respect for nature(though not affinity), as do the Tauren. There is absolutely NO REASON for them to hate each other. Forsaken: This is interesting. Some Hatred, Some Friendly, Some LOVE. Many forsaken were Lordaeron Men but MANY are also Quel'Thalas high Elves. This would mean it is entirely possible for family members to be on both sides. Others would stereotype undead as a whole just like the trolls. --Invin Dranoel 10:50, 15 October 2006 (EDT)

That stub was also made by me. Fan-written. I drew my own comparisons, piecing together the information I garnered from each race from various WarCraft RPG books. This speculation lies upon the grounds that the Horde are much much more forgiving and accepting than the Alliance races are. From behavior you can garner in-game now, in BC and from the past their policies are generally very inclusive. The Horde is a faction that is all about second chances. The Forsaken were included into the Horde because of the shaman and druidic elements within the Horde, and prior to that, the cannibalistic trolls were also allowed membership. Now this extends to the blood elves.

I can see the same Good Samaritan episode played out here. We can all see how the ruling elements of the Horde can see them as a people in need, and also obviously as a very powerful weapon and a new Horde presence of power in the Eastern Kingdoms. And most of all, I can see their relationship being the most interesting with the orcs and Forsaken. It is obvious what the blood elf relationship with orcs will be. Orcs as a race are not judgmental - you can find this in source material and in-game, and it is largely because the taurens took them under their wing even though both races were complete strangers to one another. The demonic energies that blood elves need to feed on constantly everyday is something any older orc - and therefore, someone in a position of power within the Horde - can easily empathize with. The Forsaken were the easiest to do. Although its iffy to say they're all going to be throwing Sweet 16s for each others kids, there is definately enough of a camaraderie or forced friendship to warrant Sylvanus and Loth'remar building instantaneous travel from Silvermoon to the Undercity. Also, lets not forget Sylvanus was a quel'dorei in her previous life, even though she completely relinquished her previous identity, and many of the Forsaken were former Scourge culled from the Battle of Quel'Thalas. That means they're high elves, and most likely some of them are 'deceased' friends or family of blood elves.

And for the record - all trolls and elves hate each other, just like all humans and orcs would hate each other. The typical Alliance human finds no difference between an orc of Thrall's Horde or a fel orc or a orc of Rend's Horde. The utter annihilation of several entire human nations has lended to that perspective. Likewise, close to around a thousand years of war against elf and troll - all kinds of trolls and quel'dorei - will lend to this perspective also. Obviously some understanding has to be reached now that the two are allied, but blood elves are a long-lived race and therefore very slow to forget.--Grid 11:06, 10 November 2006 (EST)

Azeroth blood elves vs Outland (Kael) blood elves
I was reading the article concerning the high elves and came accross the "Splintering" paragraph. It refers to how the Kael's blood elves are most likely a different "faction" of the "playable" blood elves, since all Horde (and Alliance) players, including blood elves, will obviously be able to raid Tempest Keep and (most likely) kill Kael. The current blood elf article simply states that they are trying to reunite with Kael. Now, it's pretty obvious that at some point their motivations will change, and since WoW is a very linear MMORPG, I doubt there will be an awesome plot twist to illustrate this change. I thus can only guess that, right from the start, it will be clear in the game that the Azeroth (playable) blood elves are different from the ones residing in Outland. All this to say that I think we should add at least a small note to the article, to clarify that, over the course of the game, the Azerothian blood elves will move against Illidan and Kael. Reading the article now makes people believe that they are all loyal to Kael, which is obviously not the case. Just a thought. --DarthMuffin 23:03, 15 September 2006 (EDT)


 * At the moment, they ARE loyal to kael, however, during the events of wow:tbc, it will likely turn out that kael either has become mad due to following illidan, and thusly kil'jaedan, or you wont fight kael at all. indeed, it is entirely possible that the blood elves will be neutral, or trying to find some way with both factions on how to free illidan, kael and vashj from kil'jaeden, as its obvious none of them wants to work for him, but they want his power.
 * obviously, its all my speculation, but i dont think anything should be added until we know for sure if we will fight kael, kill kael, or if hell even be in game as anything more than an NPC. it is entirely possible we will fight kael, vashj and illidan, not kill them, and they will return for more later (as i think kel'thuzad will, as well). bliz said at blizcon last year, you dont so much kill illidan as you do get in his way. i can only hope the same goes for kael and vashj, both of which are great characters i would hate to see die to a bunch of nameless players--Haddon 04:00, 21 September 2006 (EDT)

Just to throw my 2 cents in: The Blood Elves of Azeroth are loyal to Kael because, except for Rommath and his crew, they don't know what he's been up to. Most likely, as Haddon noted, they will find out that he's become one of the Wretched (was the Winnowed in an earlier build) - a Blood Elf who's lost control over their addiction and has become violently insane. At this point, the Blood Elves face a quandery - do they kill their beloved prince or do they follow him into madness?

My guess is that there will be a civil war, similar to the Onyxia event with Lady Prestor. Lor'themar Theron has relatively little reason to follow a mad Kael - Kael wasn't there when Lor'themar held the nation together with what was left of the Ranger Corps, and Lor'themar doesn't need Kael's demonic magic if Lor'themar can get Anvenena the Living Sunwell to produce arcane magic for his people. Rommath, on the other hand, has drunk the koolaid - his status and power depend on his access to Kael and the Outland magic. Vikingkingq

The added paragraph "Uneasy Trusting" kind of answers this question. Can anyone confirm the source though? There's also quite a few spelling/grammar mistakes in there. --DarthMuffin 23:00, 18 October 2006 (EDT)

That's the problem - my info isn't straight-up proven. It's a best-guess coming from what we already know, but I have no idea if it's right, and I'm not so happy with it being treated like fact. Vikingkingq

That was me again, on a ressurected controversy stub on why the blood elves we're allied with aren't going to be crazy demon harlots.

What we saw of Kael'Thas was a strike force he took along with him. The majority of blood elves were probably sent to reclaim Quel'Thalas, and this also plays into the other stubs I wrote, particularly why they can't speak Common. It's highly likely most of these blood elves were refugees from Quel'Thalas that were sent elsewhere, and not veterans from the other Great Wars, and thus would not have much contact with humans much less Common. We can also assume with how busy Kael was fighting not many messages got through to Halduron and Loth'remar, so they remain largely unaware of exactly what their Prince was searching for or what he found. Either way, they obviously will not be on good terms with each other, since both Horde and Alliance get kill him and his followers in the expansion.--Grid 11:10, 10 November 2006 (EST)

-Firelord- Did some of you played Wc3:The frozen throne? You will know what are the motivation of Kael to follow Illidian. To refresh your mind, let's do a little Wc3 history... When Arthas invaded Silvermoon to resurect Kel'Thuzad, he needed a powerful source of energie to transform the dead necromancer into a mighty Lich. He used the Sun Well of the High Elf to transform the remain of the former Necromancer into a chilling lich, corrupting the well by the way. After leaving the remaining High Elf, those ones where not able to continue there lives without a powerfull source of energie. Why? Cause the elven races where always addicted to the magic they used. When it cames out, they needed to find an another one. The most of them followed Kael Sunstrider to find a new way of survival. Kael named the remaining high elf who were traveling with him: The Blood Elf due to the extermination leaded by Arthas. In conclusion, the Blood Elf should be friendly to Kael if they are calling there own race Blood Elf! The Tempest Keep is a problem, cause the last BOSS will be Kael, everyone know this. Kael followed Illidian cause he promise to help him find a source of magic. Illidian is completely mad due to his fight against Arthas where he failled, but, in his mind, he still think he won the battle. But BLIZZ say that he fear the comming of is 2 greatess ennemies, Arthas or Kil'Jaeden! This is impossible cause if he think he killed Arthas, then he would not have to fear Arthas. Ans he would not have to fear Kil'Jaeden if his work is done... This will leave many question...---Firelord- 20:17, 14 December 2006 (EST)

-Galawynd- In Burning Crusade, I think Kael has left Illidan and made a pact with a demon from the Burning Legion. As for Blood Elves in Azeroth, they are still in league with Kael. As it was mentionned earlier, it is not likely that the Blood Elves will stay with their prince for very long. I'm currently leveling a Blood Elven Mage. I'll try to keep you guys updated.

Undercity Reputation
"At E3 the blood elves had no Undercity reputation bar on their reputation tab, so blood elves may only tolerate the forsaken and not be able to raise reputation with them. This could be explained because of the blood elves distrust of the undead after the ravaging of Quel'thalas at the hands of the Scourge, but this is just speculation."

Seeing as how the game is undergoing semi-public testing right now, would anyone be able to confirm (as I strongly suspect) that Blood Elves now have an Undercity reputation tab? I would assume that sort of information would be finalized by now, and this should be updated. --Pure.Wasted 01:19, 5 October 2006 (EDT)


 * It's not semi-public, whatever some websites would like to believe :P There's lots of non-finalized stuff in the alpha atm, so any information from it cannot be truly trusted. Nevertheless, it is pretty much certain that they'll have a rep bar, yeah :) -- Kirkburn  (talk) 04:53, 5 October 2006 (EDT)


 * Even if they couldnt gain rep, they would still have a rep bar..they interact with them. there isnt a single group you interact with, aside fromt he opposing faction, that you dont have some sort of rep bar for, or they are part of a larger orginization--Haddon 18:29, 6 October 2006 (EDT)


 * I'm the one that added that information, just because it was curious thing them not having it. But they have bat handlers outside silvermoon and such, they obviously have good relations. I want to see it cleared up too. --Pigzig 22:29, 6 October 2006.


 * As far as I'm getting from my friends who are playing the Beta, they start out neutral with all Horde except the Forsaken, which they are friendly with, I suppose because of Sylvannas and whatnot. AzraelOpacus 00:47, 18 October 2006 (EDT)


 * Okay, the lowdown is that while the other races of the Horde distrust the Blood Elves for their reckless use of magic, the forsaken are impressed by it. I am thinking the forsaken are trying to dupe Blood Elves into sharing their powers, by becoming close to them, so that in the future they can use the knowledge and power for themselves. It is doubtful they would actually care about helping the Blood Elves.--Pigzig 19:21, 21 October 2006

You can gain UC rep now. It was just a rumor and Blizz forgot to add them into the rep bar.--Grid 11:10, 10 November 2006 (EST)

Forsaken start off with being friendly with the blood elves? why is this? --Jammidodger 10:41, 30 December 2006 (EST)


 * Forsaken and blood elves are closer to each other in philosophy and outlook than to the rest of Horde. Blood Elves start out friendly to Undercity but neutral to the others. --Varghedin 16:46, 30 December 2006 (CET)

There's two reasons in particular. Blood elves and Forsaken aren't exactly inviting each other for tea and throwing barbeques together, but they start off friendly because..

1. Location, location, location. They're the only two presences of Horde power in the Eastern Kingdoms.

2. Necessity. Lordaeron is west of the Plaguelands, and Quel'thalas is east of them. They must work together to scour the Scourge in between, and sending emissaries and funneling troops to both kingdoms from both races is a common practice.--Zexx 13:24, 30 December 2006 (EST)

I see, so its more for millitary reasons for the both of them. As you say, an alliance of necessity.--Jammidodger 16:31, 30 December 2006 (EST)

"Fel energies gave Blood Elves green eyes" a false rumor?
Now, theres been this whole "fel energies caused blood elves to develop green eyes" thing for a long time. I just discovered blood elves and high elves look the same now, right down to the eyes, so doesn't that debunk it? Some Night Elves even had green eyes in Warcraft III, and until World of Warcraft their eyes didn't even glow either. I think this green eye thing was just invented as an explanation for their new models. What do you guys know about it? --Pigzig 22:29, 6 October 2006.


 * Most of the official night elf art I've seen shows them with glowing eyes. High elves, however, SHOULDN'T have glowing eyes unless they are heavy magic users (why all their eyes glow in BC is because Blizz doesn't care).  Fel magic is a lot more corrupting, and it seems to affect its users a lot quicker.  Sure, Blizz hasn't come out and said flat-out "Fel magic gave blood elves green eyes," but we've seen demonic influence on races before, and eye color is usually one of the things that change. --Kakwakas 23:17, 13 October 2006 (EDT)
 * High Elves don't have glowing green eyes. They have glowing blue eyes, check the WoW model viewer and select "Use NPC Skins" under "options" when you have a blood elf PC model selected. You're either seeing the eyes wrong, they changed the NPC models to have green eyes, or it's a blood elf model with pale skin, and not a high elf model. Omacron 22:31, 15 October 2006 (EDT)


 * I just want to point out that in the end, canon "on the ground" data trumps lore predictions 100% of the time, even when canon information is contradictory to other canon information. If the High Elf models have glowing eyes, then that is how they are.  It isn't a function of Blizzard being lazy, it simply is what it is.  Made up lore must conform to the game as implemented.  I'm not saying they are or aren't because I'm not in the beta and don't know.    Piroko


 * I'm not disputing that high elves have glowing eyes- they do. But they don't glow green, they glow blue. It has nothing to do with me saying "that's how lore is", that's HOW THE MODELS ARE! It's just the high/blood elf in the picture has green eyes, which only blood elf models should have, and thus, I do not think it is an actual high elf. Omacron 19:03, 16 October 2006 (EDT)


 * Oh wait I didn't even notice that the original comment there was that they're the same color, too. High elves shouldn't even have glowing eyes to begin with, but even the glow in BC isn't green.  You're right, the glow IS blue, but their eye color is green, so their eyes look more green than blue.  Maybe when Blizz makes a seperate skin/model for high elves and can change the eye color, the glow will get the boot, too. --Kakwakas 00:49, 17 October 2006 (EDT)
 * Well, if you would read on what I put on talk:High_elf, you can see that the high elves DID have glowing blue eyes in warcraft games prior- look at the High Elven priests from WCIII.
 * Yes, but dragonhawk riders, high elven swordsmen, high elven archers, WC2 elves, etc didn't. What gave high elven priests glowing blue eyes? Hmmm.  It would seem Holy magic gives glowing eyes sometimes, too.  --Kakwakas 01:43, 18 October 2006 (EDT)
 * Dance, magic, dance! Omacron 16:43, 18 October 2006 (EDT)

Anyway, not all Night Elves had glowing yellow eyes either, it's really just a stylistic change for WoW I guess. Though I do like that at least all elves have glowing eyes, gives 'em something more than just being pointy eared humans, and I do kinda like them.


 * I think the last patch may have changed some things. I believe that the mage trainer in Stormwind hadn't been updated when I first checked her, but now she has.  As for high elves' eyes, they range from a brilliant blue to a soft glow, but nothing like the glow from blood elves' and night elves' eyes.  Arator's eyes glow green, which I've reported as a bug.--Aeleas 21:00, 23 October 2006 (EDT)

That was me again. I made the 'fel energy gives blood elves green eyes' change. It's a straight parallel between orcs with burning red eyes, which is an immediately proven trait that the orc is still infused with fel blood. The condition manifests itself differently in different species. Draenei have a similar trait, for example. The difference is with the playable BC blood elves their eyes don't burn as brightly because they aren't completely gorged by it.--Grid 10:55, 10 November 2006 (EST)

Hello all Zexx AKA Grid here. My speculation was correct. The green eyes are a direct result of the blood elves' dependance on fel magic for sustenance. It's confirmed in the concept art for the blood elf priestess for the BC cinematic. The source is the Art of World of WarCraft: Burning Crusade, which comes with the Collector's Edition of BC.--Zexx 10:47, 16 January 2007 (EST)


 * Its also confirmed in Monster Guide, 2007.Baggins 17:52, 10 March 2007 (EST)

Some Douchebag editing and "hacking" the page.
Dude, theres a asshole editing and hacking the page. His user name is Ghhf. Can someone PLEASE ban this guy ? --Pulyx

Known vandals --Tinkerer 11:20, 20 October 2006 (EDT)


 * Damn it, he deleted the WHOLE page. Does this site block by IP so he won't make another account and start doing it again ? --Pulyx


 * Unfortunately, this is how wikis work - plus he could get another IP if he really wanted anyway. He's banned, in any case :) -- Kirkburn  (talk) 13:13, 20 October 2006 (EDT)


 * Is it possible to revert to a more recent version? - Vikingkingq

Evil Never Looked So Sexy
Who the heck put that caption? It's pretty dorky sounding.

Blizzard, I believe.. --Tinkerer 12:35, 20 October 2006 (EDT)


 * I think its dumb too. Lets change it. --Pigzig 01:00, 24 October 2006


 * The denial is as thick as.. as... jelly brains. 21:43, 1 November 2006 (EST)


 * Yup. First of all, it's not sexy, it's a bunch of pixels. And even then, Blood Elves are not evil, they're just magic-junkies. Remove this already.-- K )  (talk) 01:41, 20 November 2006 (EST)