Talk:Draenei controversy

I would like to take this oppurtunity to remind users that proper talk page conduct is to add new posts BELOW the discussion, and NOT to splice in the middle OR edit previous posts!-- Ragestorm  (talk · contr) 23:22, 19 January 2007 (EST)

"flaws"
What Angry Ogre proposes is fair, but this is not a lack of flaws, merely a lack of evil characters (which, by biological technicality, is not not true). A note to that regard is fair, but to say they completely lack flaws is erroneus.-- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 22:28, 18 January 2007 (EST)

I don't like how the draenei are written at all,they are way too black and white for a warcraft race. They remind of mary sues. Thats the problem with the expansion races they lack dimensi,theres too much Y race is pure good while X race is pure evil. I don't konw about you but see at least one evil draenei would make my day. I see what your saying though maybe I should reword it. Angry ogre


 * Blood elves are more rounded than you think, and the draenei have a number of flaws, though pure evil is not one of them (that's the difference between Man'ari and draenei, and there is detailed lore to explain this). In fact, the draenei probably only appear 2-dimensional because we have little experience with them. If you insist, the section can stay, but I insist on a disclaimer point out this this complaint may lessen with additional lore. -- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 22:46, 18 January 2007 (EST)

I've done their quests and I haven't can't find a single bad or rude motive in any of them. Even the tauren have Miss Grimtotem for evil representation. And the blood elves are even worse then the forsaken,least they don't go around torturing beings of pure good. Angry ogre


 * Angry Ogre, I've been at this for months. I've heard this argument from every possible angle. The draenei do not have evil characters because they are not evil. Evil draenei are Man'ari Eredar. Good eredar are draenei. That is the established dichotomy. Blood elves are not pure evil. If they were, then there wouldn't be a plot, and failure to complete a quest would result in incineration. -- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 23:06, 18 January 2007 (EST)

But there should at least one bigoted,zealous or just rude Draenei. Just like how all bad orcs aren't all fel orcs,or there being evil night elves and evil Satyr. And theres real point in trying to say blood elves are not evil,Blizzard themselves even says "Dark Destiny" and call the blood knights evil. Infact from what Metzen Says in the collectors addition I take it he doesn't even like Blood elves. Angry ogre


 * Angry Ogre - did you play on the beta? 00:46, 19 January 2007 (EST)


 * Some draenei are extremely fanatical about the Light, to the point of trying to force Broken back to it, sometimes against their wishes. Other draenei used to, and still do look down upon their mutated brethren.  Those are flaws, are they not? --Maenos 03:08, 19 January 2007 (EST)

I have yet to see those traits,not even in one single draenei npc. Angry ogre


 * The Elekk tender in Kessel's Crossing bitches about his job and his employer. And there are a pair of blood elves in Silvermoon that are trying to teach the others the folly of their new alliance and their magical addiction. There's also several quest givers that mourn the loss of their bond with Eversong's treants etc. It's not all black and white. Just almost. --  Varghedin   talk / contribs  11:40, 19 January 2007 (EST)

One can't argue that the blood elves aren't evil,they mindcontrol those who don't like the goverment,they attack the draenei in outland for no apparrent reason,they keep slaves,and the fact that they torture beings of pure good just kills any possible sympathy you might have left for them. Seriously they might as well have Hitlers moustaches and start goosestepping. I mean orcs lost their own planet,their friends, got their skin mutated,commited horrible crimes due to a demon pact,Night elves lost their immortality,gnomes their city and you don't seem them lashing out at the world.I guess the high elves always were leaning toward evil cause losing your city and becoming magic addicts is nothing compared to losing your planet,or your immortality. Angry ogre


 * A Broken in Orebor Harborage makes mention of draenei that do this. Another draenei in Telredor also is confused about why Lost Ones who have turned to druidism do not wish to return to the Light (though in this case he accepts their choice).  As for looking down on the Broken and Lost Ones, memory serves, the leader of the Lost Ones I mentioned speaks of how their unmutated brethren did not help them in the past.  And there is mention of Nobundo being ignored and turned away because he was a Broken.  Also, though I do not know the reason why, there are a number of draenei (not Eredar, as all Eredar I have come across share that hairless, partially armored model that Prince Malchezaar uses) in and around Auchindoun practicing necromancy. --Maenos 04:37, 19 January 2007 (EST)

Hmm you make a good point. Its good to know that they're not all perfect because I don't really like inherently good or evil races. I don't know about you but the expansion seems to have all disregarded horde what with all the army of light(horde should have gotten army of spirits). And they still haven't explained why the orcs didn't even name their own planet. But they are definetly making it Alliance=good and Horde=evil for the expansion. Angry ogre


 * Actually, it was explained why the orcs didn't name their own planet. They didn't refer to it as anything other than "the world". This is very common among tribal societies. It usually takes a sophisticated state system and centered civilization for the concept of formally naming a planet.  -- Ragestorm  (talk · contr) 08:36, 19 January 2007 (EST)

I'm just wondering. Do all the Draenei in Auchenai Crypts not count as evil? None of them appear to be Man'ari eredar, but draenei. Pzychotix 00:55, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I would like to take this oppurtunity to remind users that proper talk page conduct is to add new posts BELOW the discussion, and NOT to splice in the middle OR edit previous posts!-- Ragestorm  (talk · contr) 23:22, 19 January 2007 (EST)

There is one evil named draenei
And he does EXACTLY what the blood knights do. Sucks power from a Naaru. he is found in that Naaru crystal vessel that you vist in the Greatmother quest string. He is most definitly draenei opting to keep his title "vindicator" (I cannot reclall the name and would appreciate assistance with this) Scorpx2 00:43, 21 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, most of the Auchenai (Exarch Maladaar included) are kinda messed up. - Dark T Zeratul 00:56, 21 May 2007 (UTC)


 * What does this prove? -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 14:36, 21 May 2007 (UTC)


 * That there are a number of draenei that could be considered evil. - Dark T Zeratul 01:11, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * In exactly the same way that a number of orcs, humans, Tauren, gnomes, trolls, and elves who could be considered evil. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 12:58, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The difference is that draenei have been accused of being 'purely good' similar to how blood elves have been accused of being 'unabashedly evil' (by some of the same people, might I add). See the above discussion. There are also a number of evil draenei members of the Wyrmcult in Blade's Edge. As always, such generalizations of all the members of a race are nothing but fallacies. -- 13:07, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I think we can all take a lesson from this. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 13:29, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Angry Ogre, while I do understand where you are coming from that the draenei seem a little too goody-two-shoes for me, you are forgetting two things. 1) the draenei have a history of apartheid-like persecution against the Krokil after the war against the orcs. 2) there is one draenei who isn't perfect, Kayalaan the Lost. He is very disheartened by the destructive conflict between the Aldor and the Burning Legion, so much that he renounces the Light. Then, later on, he sides with the demon Socrethar against his fellow Aldor (that really annoying quest in Netherstorm that glitches all the time...). With regards to the Blood Elves, I like the fact that they're a little bit twisted and craven, but they aren't all evil. The ones following Lor'themar in Quel'thalas, as well as the Scryers, though they're still concerned with vengeance and are still a little evil, they have had the good sense to abandon the real nut-jobs Kael'thas (who is now openly serving the Burning Legion) and Illidan. ~ Grudgham (talk) 18:12, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Dimorphism
I'm familiar with Andrea Rubenstein's article. And I say: "pshaw."

To begin with, her pictures are out of scale. Although male draenei are considerably bulkier than their sisters, they're not significantly taller; Rubenstein's reference picture, however, makes the female character look nearly a head shorter. (Rubenstein, for the record, had not played WoW at the time when she wrote the article.)

Additionally, my shaman has visited many a thumping upon the skull of many a blood elf; and I feel confident in stating that she outmasses even the males of that race. Mind you, part of that is the fact that draenei are tall. But, unlike the female blood elf model, the female draenei model has distinct hips. (There's more of a resemblance to the female human model, if anything.)

So male draenei are beefy and female draenei are lithe. Maybe it's just that—dimorphism. (Some fan fiction writers have certainly had fun lampshading it as such.)  Which isn't to say that I'd gripe if they were to introduce a more muscular-looking model for female draenei (or a slimmer model for the fellas). I'm just not going to make a federal case out of it.

It should be noted that I'm female, and have been known to get touchy about sexist behavior. But this doesn't seem like a genuine issue of sexism. (If anything, it's the social ideals to which Blizz may be catering that need to be examined...and that's a whole 'nother can of wiggly worms.) Considering Rubenstein's more recent dealings with the WoW community, I'm becoming more and more inclined to suspect her of crying wolf. 05:12, 21 March 2008 (UTC)