Talk:Moroes

This article is on watch
Consider this a warning. I'm watching this page and I've seen some disturbing edit-war like behavior. I may consider wiping the slate clean and forcing people to put any strategies on subpages with links to the Moroes article. -- Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 11:44 PM PST 3 Jan 2008


 * Please explain "edit-war like behavior" or refer us to a source that explains it, so that we know exactly where the boundaries lie. There were some active edits and a decent amount of discussion here, but the article seems, to me, to be clearer, more accurate, and more useful as a result.  It seems positive, not negative, to me.


 * Also, aren't additions to the discussion page supposed to go on the bottom? I missed your note because I always skip the old stuff at the top.  If I'm wrong about that, I guess I'll have to look at the top of similar articles.  Kathucka 16:52, 9 January 2008 (EST)


 * I can help with that ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Edit_war, A search for edit war on the search box in here, directs you to that webpage.lengths 10:16, 10 January 2008 (GMT)

Warning About Shamans
I'm not sure how I could add this, but I want to note, as with most fights with heavy CC like this one, Shaman should avoid laying down most Fire Totems (Searing, Magma, Fire Elemental), until the Adds are down. We wiped our first try of this guy doing that.

Personality
Seemed to have retained much of his former personality; in which way? -- T inker  er  12:13, 19 February 2007 (EST)
 * He still thinks he's a butler. --Sky 06:06, 26 February 2007 (EST)

Gouge
"This can be countered by Tremor Totem."

Tremor totem does not remove this affect, at least as of version 2.0.8


 * Same here, doesnt work.
 * Poison cleansing totem does seem to affect blind however 03:05, 26 February 2007 (EST)

Starting at 30%, he seems to do some sort of aoe warstomp attack.. can anyone verify this? 03:21, 26 February 2007 (EST)
 * Did him yesterday and didn't noticed a warstomp while tanking him. --Montronax 05:57, 26 February 2007 (EST)

-- What about Free Action Potions on the tanks to prevent the initial gouge? Also has anyone tried Stratholme Holy Water to aid the AoE of clearing the room? Varonin 17:13, 5 March 2007 (EST)


 * Free Action Potions only prevent stuns, snares, and roots. Gouge is an incapacitate effect.
 * As for Holy Water, might be a good idea if you really are desperate for AoE, but even 10 being tossed at once would only be the equivalent of 1 or 2 mages over a short duration of time (1 min cooldown on the water). Most classes have SOME form of AoE, even if weak, that does more damage than the water anyway. Davivmcd 19:42, 19 April 2007 (EDT)


 * I suppose a Prot Paladin with Blessing of Sacrifice could avoid Gouge in that manner, as it breaks on damage. Stillfresh 17:43, 4 May 2007 (EDT)

Rogue Poisons
"You need every ounce of DPS possible for this fight, do not bother with non-damaging poisons."

Is poor advice, especially on the Warrior adds who hit leather quite hard.

A combination of Crippling/Mind-Numbing poison is superior if you have sufficient ranged DPS to kite around the priest/paladin adds, as well as provide a larger window to interrupt heals/mana burns. As long as the rogue remembers to switch back to damage poisons for Moroes there is no reason to advise against other poisons for his adds. Tempmted to remove this 'tip.' --Sekai 16:56, 27 March 2007 (EDT)

Miscellaneous Lore
I would just like to point out that Moroes was described as Weasely and he brok "cooks" crystal gems as stated in the Last Guardian not when madivh asked for one of those crystals. It had nothing to do with dishes.

Dealing with Garotte
Havent read about this anywhere, but he is a rogue. And like all rogues that are in stealth he can be trown out of it by the usual stuff. AoE is our preferred method. Positioning of shackled adds, the tanking spot and the clothies is what makes for a succesful attempt. Just make sure that on his way to the raidmember he wants to garotte he has to go through the AoE - area

Thuzad


 * Could you provide a screenshot of the combat logs of him being hit by AoE and "Vanish fades from Moroes" ? I was under the impression that NPC vanish was not removable by any normal method. Stillfresh 12:22, 9 April 2007 (EDT)


 * If DoTs from the raid keep ticking (they do I've seen this from a warlocks perspective) then I highly doubt any AoE would remove his stealth. 14:47, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

There is a trinket called luffa, which is a quest reward from searing gorge. It removes a bleeding effect. So if someone did not junk it, it should work here. Timorgoth 6. june 2007


 * You need to read patch notes more carefully. Luffa was changed to work only on pre-60 effects long time ago. --Rowaasr13 09:46, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

We used the following method for dealing with garottes when our shadow priest was available. Before the fight, put the shadow priest in his/her own group. As people are garotted, put them in the group with the shadow priest. The healing that the priest does as he/she damages Moroes is almost enough to keep garotted poeple alive. An occassional full heal on these people and they should stay up for the whole fight. Robert804 21:33, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think any item in the game can remove this effect. If there is please link it.

Intervene?
Okay so my guild is having some trouble with Moroes mainly the garrotes getting on the healers. I'm just wondering as off tank if i can intervene one of our 4 healers to see if i can take the garrote instead of them getting it. This is just one simple question feel free to edit it strait in =P. This would make this fight a lot easier with the only the tanks and offtanks have garrotes and not the healers. I've been trying this but never have seemed to pull it off or get lucky enough anyway.


 * I did a clean, quick intervene on one of his longer vanishes, and when he garroted that healer later, I plainly saw my intervene buff remain on him, along with his garrote debuff. I was not already garroted at the time. Intervene does NOT stand in for garrote, and I've removed the tip from the article. --Falos 06:19, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Blind
The article says that Blind is cast on the second-highest on the aggro-list, but my impression is that Moroes cast Blind randomly on someone in melee range. Can anybody confirm this? Benhoof 04:46, 9 April 2007 (EDT)


 * Difficult to say, I'll try to have our rogue(s) keep a look out for it. We almost always see it on the OT, but that may just be luck. Stillfresh 12:20, 9 April 2007 (EDT)

I think you might've been just lucky; I was meleeing down the Baron last night and hadn't touched Moroes yet when he blinded me, then went back to the two tanks. It seems like a proximity-triggered move. Ashtongue 17:49, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

It is absolutely NOT the second-highest on the aggro list. It may possibly be the second closest target in melee range. I've been blinded (as a hunter) without doing a single point of damage to him yet, just by standing nearby. Considering the OT should be standing closest to him at most times however, it makes sense that he would get blinded most of the time. Davivmcd 19:26, 19 April 2007 (EDT)

I can confirm that the Blind is proximity determined and not aggro determined. The reason the OT is most commonly blinded is because normally the MT and OT are the only ones in melee range at the time. The Blind will affect the target other than the MT that is CLOSEST to Moroes. When DPSing down Moroes, it is advisable for the OT to max range Moroes' hit box while a melee DPS stands close to Moroes, or practically on top of him, to soak the Blinds to avoid a both tanks being CC'd at the same time. After numerous fights, I have witnessed other melee while on my priest, and myself on my shaman, be blinded from being closest to Moroes every time. --Furi, December 1st

Adds
Under the addlist its stated that the adds are actual npcs in Darkshire. Is that true, I cant seem to remember them. (Keilden 15:57, 7 May 2007 (EDT))

thottbot says no. they may all have relatives there though, run a check on last names in thottbot.

Can we remove the nonsense about diminishing returns in PVE? One editor's claims of first hand experience on an unrelated encounter do not impress me and is not supported by actual experience in this encounter. More likely than not, his experience in this fight that lead him to believe there are diminishing returns was due to one or both of two factors: unlucky early breaks, or cleanses from the other mobs. The inclusion of contradictory information (one passage advising priests to re-shackle every 5 seconds, another saying watch out for diminishing returns) like this can waste a lot time for those who rely on this site for guiding information. The adds are simply not subjectable to diminishing returns on Shackles, traps, or Turn Undead (yes stuns do have diminishing returns.) Several months of doing this instance, I have never seen an add go immune.


 * I've revamped the add table because it was bugging me that the list of their abilities was incomplete and not precise, now adding more of them and linking them with the corresponding ability entries. I'm not 100% certain about their abilities (most of them were taken from different sources, backed up by my own observations as good as possible), but it seems they all come with three of them. A few things still need to be investigated, such as:
 * - Third ability of Daris
 * - All abilities of Crispin (apparently noone really bothers about him)
 * - Do both paladins really cast the same type of blessing? Rondaru 09:44, 30 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The guide says the paladins and priests can dispel crowd control and should probably be handled with care. After an innumerable amount of Moroes kills, I have noticed that they all have that ability, but only the Holy Paladin is capable (or interested) in cleansing crowd control, notably other shackles. Any fight including the other adds and not the Holy Paladin has resulted in not a single shackle or CC breaking -ever- but instead they choose to dispel buffs off our raid. If anyone can effectively disagree with this, I'd like to hear, but I can effectively assure the Holy Paladin is our only CC cleansing threat.   --Furi

My guild usually kites Moroes's adds out of the room once he is dead to get them to despawn. On 2 August 2007 the adds followed us all the way to the instance entrance (we exited) and stood there for about 30 seconds. They then teleported back to their original locations. We killed them after distributing Moroes's loot so I don't know if we needed to kill them in order to unlock the Opera event. Has anyone else been seening this? If so the Moroes page should probably be edited to reflect the change in behavior. Lxs 20:42, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

After reviewing the Adds section of this article, it is extremely inaccurate. Not only is much of the information misinforming, it also gives advice on approaching them that is completely adverse to a truly agreeable and preferable strategy. I'm going to modify it to be more helpful. --Furi

Turn undead
Paladins turn undead ability is a very good CC here. However, lately I managed to fear one add out of the room where the encounter starts and suddenly all other adds disappeared. Moroes did not disappear... --Thundor 14:09, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

There is a macro in the Class Specific Tips section /cast [target=Lord Robin Daris] Turn Undead I have been unable to adapt this macro for use with other mobs and spells, so I'm skeptical that it actually works on the minions. Based on macros that do work, I would suggest this: /target Lord Robin Daris /cast Turn Undead /targetlasttarget as an example of a non-focus macro. Can I get some confirmation on this? --Thoth 04:26, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Cleaning Up
Over time, the page has become bloated with everyone stuffing their ideas in. I'm going to purge redundant things and try to streamline the ideas into a more coherent page. Girion 10:06, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Vanish and dots
My raid group recently had a bug where dots killed Moroes while he was vanished, and the kill wasn't registered. As a result we were unable to start the Opera event. I have no idea if this has happened to anyone else, if so then maybe it should be mentioned somewhere. : Jackstrom 18:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

This has happened to my raid group as well. Definately caused by Moroes dying to a DoT while Vanished. : Bremic 30 September 2007

Time for another cleanup
I added in useful information about the different adds, tips for various classes, and the preparation and execution of the fight. I also made a minor improvement to the organization.

However, the article is again to big, with some redundant information. It needs another re-org to present the information more cleanly and remove the repetition. There are some other issues, too.

Intervene to catch Garrote sure seems to work for my raids, but there's a note here indicating that it doesn't. That needs to be tested and confirmed.

The discussion of the macros is too long and detailed. Maybe move them to another page and put in a link to that?

The problem here is that this really is a complicated fight. It's the most complicated fight up to the point, and it really can't be handled without thorough knowledge of the fight, planning, communication, and leadership. It's also a fight where many raids get hung up for a long time. All that leads to a long, complicated article, which really isn't a good thing.

I've never seen the ret pally dispel shackles or traps, even though he's certainly had the opportunity. I've also never seen it from the holy priest, although she's always dead quickly or shackled the whole fight. Can anyone else confirm that only the holy paladin will dispel shackles? There's one note here to that effect, but more evidence would be good.

Kathucka 23:34, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm going to un-revert the Lengths reversion. The December 16 re-org is a big improvement, due to a cleaner organization, removal of redundant and useless information, better diction and grammar, and removal of slang.


 * Please think about what is useful. If anyone who would need to use the information would already know it, it's useless.  For instance, any paladin tank who gets to Moroes already knows that he can use Consecration to maintain threat on multiple targets.  That information is completely useless to anyone who would want to read the article.


 * Genuinely useful information was not removed, although it certainly did move around a lot.


 * If there is some information eliminated in the edit that you feel is important, please do not simply revert to get it back. Instead:
 * Check the article carefully, to make sure the information didn't simply move somewhere else.
 * Check to make sure that it wasn't simply redundant repetition that was removed.
 * Decide if the information really is valuable to a raid that has already made it this far.


 * If you still think that the information needs to go back in, consider inserting the information in the new framework, where the mess has been cleaned up, instead of reverting back to the mess. There is probably a good place for it.


 * Oh, and about that paladin tank strategy.... You're going to have to explain that.  Raids new to this encounter are decked out in blues and greens.  If you have a paladin tank and three healers all in blues and greens, will the paladin tank really be able to survive with all five mobs hitting him?  Also, it seems that, as soon as the tank gets hit with gouge or hammer of justice, at least four of the five mobs are going to jump on a healer, pretty much guaranteeing a death.  How does that work?


 * If you really can work out those kinks, a step-by-step procedure is not in order. Just a quick note in the tanking section along the lines of "A paladin can tank all the mobs at the same time, with no need for crowd control." would do fine.  Keep it short to be read by a raid leader while the raid is waiting for him.


 * Finally, do discuss changes here, please.


 * Kathucka 20:07, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes as I do think some generally usefull information was removed, will reply to that when i have had another look through.

The question of the Gouge and hammer of justice was exactly why I posted a step by step, there is a step by step assuming you are using a warror or druid tank, seems right that there is addition showing what a paldin can bring to the engagment.

if a paladin uses a blessing of sacrife on sombody who is gouged (and renews it everybody 30sec), they can not be stunned cause as soon as it transfers some damage over to the paladin, the paladin is knocked out of the stun. What this mean is this whole encounter, is NOT dependent on having an off-tank (or 2), As the stratagy on there suggests.

Your question of green and blue equipped people dealing with the enounter, If you are Offtanking the adds you are having to heal sombody + the adds do not hit that hard.

and Is'nt it better than the healers are keeping the tank up rather than worrying about there shakles breaking? Doing it with a paldin tank means that the healers are focused on the tank so can get by with a less good quality of gear.

this fight can be very simple with a paladin tank, no matter on the gear, because the healers can focus on healing, the dps can focus on dpsing, and the Tank can cast to get himself out of the stun's and can focus in tanking. In the way that paldains do best.. AOE.. this fight is made for a paladin tank, and to remove that....

Lengths 09:57, 18 December 2007 (GMT)


 * Ok, I moved the paladin tank information from its own section to the tank section, removed the bad spelling and capitalization, and removed the stuff about Avenger's Shield, Consecration, etc. (which paladin tanks already know).


 * The advantage of having multiple tanks is that the damage is spread out, so you don't have to worry about deaths due to random spikes when all the targets hit at once. However, the points about making the fight less complicated are certainly valid.  I'd be interested in the experience of paladin tanks in this fight, especially if they and their healers are doing it with blues and greens.


 * On another note, reports from the Blizzard forums indicate that Intervene doesn't catch Garrote. I'll zap that bit.  Kathucka 22:45, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

31 December 2007 revert Furinaux edits
I reverted the Furinaux edit, mainly because it added too much wordiness to an article that is already too long. However, it also added some stuff that is controversial, without discussing it here. To wit:


 * None of the adds except Daris needs to be tanked? I'd disagree.  You don't want any of them hitting your healers.  They're going to hit someone while you kill them, and it's better if it's a tank.  Dreuger, especially, does a ton of damage and needs a tank.  However, Millstipe can't be tanked effectively, because her spells have semi-random targets.
 * Daris is the #1 shackle target? No, he isn't.  He's the #1 trap target, since he doesn't have any spells.  He runs straight into a trap.  Plus, your hunter can survive his Mortal Strike, where your priest can't.  Berrybuck is easily the #1 shackle target.  If she gets a dispel off, it can quickly lead to a wipe.  Whether to leave Daris crowd-controlled for the duration of the fight is a judgment call.  He has a long cooldown on the Mortal Strike.  Certainly, he shouldn't be tanked by Moroes' main tank, but the off-tank, who takes Moroes hits only during Gouge, can handle him fine.
 * Paladins are as easy to kill as the priests? Flat wrong, there.  They're not.  They have more health and higher armor.
 * Berrybuck does Blessing of Might, not Dreuger? Possibly, but that gives her four abilities to Dreuger's two.  This needs to be captured in a combat log and explained here.
 * Von'indi doesn't dispel traps and shackles? I've heard that, too.  Sounds good.  However, that still needs some discussion here.

The edits were clearly well-intentioned. A little discussion here and less wordiness in the edits would make it OK.

Also, since there is some disagreement about shackle priorities, maybe it would be better to to have "high shackle priority" for Daris and Berrybuck, instead of "#1 priority". After all, different raids successfully do it different ways. -- Kathucka 31 December 2007


 * Perhaps I'm not the master at composing an article, and I suppose I should have made note of it first here, but to explain all your views:
 * 1. They simply don't need to be tanked. To be tanked would define an actual player who is designed to receive damage is simply the one receiving it. And many raids don't bring a 3rd tank. I don't know what your healers are doing if they somehow pull aggro off the DPS, who are actually tanking them this fight, though.
 * 2. You can trap any of them. Once fired upon they run straight into the trap without pause to cast. Also, Daris is the only one that can deal widespread damage and apply a fatal debuff to tanking. Also, by shackle priority, I basically mean Daris is one that should remain shackled the entire fight, due to Dreuger damage, but Ferrence longevity. Sure, your priest will not survive a mortal strike, but if you read I said Daris is the easiest to keep shackled. If your shackle breaks he often tends to remain in place, from where the shackle was positioned, to whirlwind, even if no one is in range to receive damage, thus allowing precious shackling time, whereas Dreuger will immediately charge, stun, and assassinate a priest. But even if he didn't do that, the priest should keep a distance from his shackle and be alert, otherwise they are not effectively performing their role for this fight, and it is not our position as information gatherers and compilers to simplify the fight for retards who are unable to actually do it. Same applies for reshackling Berrybuck's cleanses.
 * 3 . Yes, the Paladins are easy to kill. So you have to cast 1 more Fireball to kill them than the Priests.. if that is honestly your definition of much harder to kill, I would define it as that in your description. Although simply "looking" at their clothing cannot define it, the Paladins appear to be wearing leather and cloth, but if you simply watch the Paladins being DPS'd down, they drop just as considerably fast, in contrast to the warriors. I even video taped my Kara this week. From the first hit to death: Von'Indi died in 21 seconds and Dreuger died in 19 seconds. The warriors were left alone. (To add: Ferrence took 19 seconds to die with 10% already missing and the DPS + 2 tanks, since Moroes was down, and he didn't use shield wall; Daris took 25 seconds at 100% with the tanks, as well). The minor differences in time of death may be explainable by simply the raid's.. choice to DPS immediately.. or care to, after Moroes died.
 * 4. I don't need to capture a combat log of her casting it. When you pull Moroes at the very beginning with Berrybuck there, she will toss her hand into the air, you will see the animation of the buff being applied to everyone, and that is all I need to say. Dreuger, without Berrybuck in the group, doesn't present a single buff to his party. In this week's same video, Dreuger did no such thing. Also, if you click Berrybuck's link, it lists the ability there, and not in Dreuger's.
 * 5. Von'indi doesn't dispel shackles. In that same video, and once again, for the 5000th Kara, she didn't dispel our two shackles, but rather dispelled Fortitude off the mage who was tanking her, tanking her because he hit her the hardest and thus built the most threat. And I cast a heal on him to heal it back, and fortunately was unable to pull aggro off the mage. I suggest if you're going to add to an article, you pay more attention. Even if my composition is too wordy, it is much better than your completely flawed interpretation of the adds. Not only do you overcomplicate it with tanking, you frighten with the fact that the adds are truly mini-bosses, and you don't even explain their abilities properly, list them appropriately, or name them all. --Furi January 01, 2008

Ok, I put back the information about Blessing of Might, mentioned that Von'indi doesn't dispel shackles/traps, and mentioned that Daris can be kept shackled the whole fight.

That said, you're not looking at this from the proper perspective. As authors, it is absolutely our job to make this fight possible for raids that otherwise could not accomplish it. If you can't get past "retard" insults, I suggest that you find some other activity. Such an attitude makes it difficult to be helpful here.

You need to look at this from a perspective of a raid that's only just barely managed to defeat Attumen, and is going in with two tanks, five damage-dealers (one is a hunter), and three healers (one is a priest)...and they're all fairly unskilled, because they're new at raiding. To use your words, they're all "retards." The priest is holy, so he has no spell hit and is going to have some shackles resisted.

From that perspective, it's clear that the biggest risk to the raid is from one of the high DPS adds breaking loose from a shackle and killing the priest before the re-shackle can happen. That's why you want Daris to be trapped or off-tanked. It's just safer. He's a good candidate for chain trapping, because he doesn't have any spellcast mischief that he'll do while he's running from one trap to the next. Also, he won't one-shot the hunter. Off-tanking removes the risk of one-shots. It does increase the load on the healers, but you have three of those anyway, and the off-tank doesn't have much to do when there's no gouge. You kill Daris early to remove that load on the healers. It's easy to chain-trap him for 45 seconds or so, which gives plenty of time to kill the first add before an off-tank picks him up. Finally, trapping and off-tanking frees up a priest to shackle someone else. The cost is that it takes longer to get to Moroes, but, for raids at this point, it's worth it in order to remove the one-shot wipe risk. If you shackle Berrybuck and trap/off-tank Daris, this risk is completely removed.

Put another way, Daris is too dangerous to shackle. You want to trap/tank him so he doesn't pull out any surprises, then you want him dead.

Tanking anyone but Moroes, Daris and Dreuger is optional, but it helps, simply by making the job easier on the healers and reducing risks. Remember that the raiders reading this article only just barely managed to down Attumen, and they need all the help they can get.

And no, you don't use a third tank, unless you happen to have one lying around. You use the Moroes off-tank.

Oh, and criticizing me is pointless. This article was written by a lot of people. Kathucka 23:57, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Considering that once the CC breaking adds are out the way, shackles rarely break early, Daris is best left to be reshackled. If it's being trapped, then you run the risk of the trap being resisted and the hunter being out of luck until his cooldown is up. Shackles can be reapplied at will, and if it's resisted, there's always time to reshackle before the first shackle breaks. Finally, considering the amount of damage that he puts out on tanks, it's probably not the best thing to off-tank for beginning kara groups. —Pzychotix (talk &middot; contr) 00:03, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I apologize, I should have warned you that I don't mince my words, and will commonly appear antagonizing, due to it. It gives my text flavor, and the barest of honesty. If a priest is unable to keep someone as easy as Daris shackled, thus allowing themselves to be hit by Mortal Strike, or they foolishly stand near shackles, becoming easy targets, then it is not our problem. Perhaps we should add something spiffy to the article, such as a how to effectively shackle, but that would be rambling. Yes, I understand we are supposed to consider this from a perspective of a raid that has no experience with Moroes, and we are basically speaking to the uneducated OF THE FIGHT, not of their classes' capabilities. If a priest is too slow and can't multi-task for anyone's sake for Maiden, we don't create an entire section on what to do if your priests can't dispel. We simply say, dispel it, or die, and then replace your dispellers. Adding warnings are nice for the article, such as: if Daris reaches your priest because he is a bad priest, he will die, and I advise you replace that priest. Or: Dreuger reaching the priest will stun and kill your priest, so watch out if you choose to shackle it. The easiest thing to do for a beginning raid would be to shackle Daris, and there should be no reason to create an alternative for someone unable to do it. Reading the guide, people will be aware that they can trap it if they choose to reject this easy to shackle add. Again, it is not our job to create a marvelous scenario on how to save a raid if someone jacks up. The current modifications you've agreed upon with me have me pretty content, despite what you may think after reading this. Do some observations of your own if you run Kara soon to help verify. Understandably you still don't agree with me that Daris should be shackled, and I doubt many raids will wipe because the perfect Daris approach wasn't discovered, so I would simply leave it as something we agree to disagree upon, if you'll join me. (If you want to add it for the sake of accuracy, Von'Indi also does a Holy Fire and the raid should probably save their interrupts for her heals if they don't have very many interrupts available). --Furi, Jan 03, 2008.


 * The end result is that there is more than one way to do it. Shackling Daris is not the easiest way for every raid.  If it worked, though, it wasn't wrong.  The article currently explains what the issues are, and the raid leaders can make their own decisions about their priorities based on their knowledge of their raid's skills and gear.  Specifying the One Right Way in this article would be a mistake.


 * Oh, and the article already does mention that Von'indi's heals should be interrupted. I don't know why it didn't have Holy Fire listed.  I put it in.  Kathucka 20:43, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Specifying the One Right Way in this article would be a mistake. I'll agree and accept that as my mistake, and recognize the removal of some of my edits is beneficial to the article. --Furi, January 03, 2008.


 * Not sure how shackling isn't the best CC possible. 0 cooldown, reapplicable CCs have massive advantages over any other type of CC that allows the mob even one second of movement. Case in point: Polymorph vs. Trap against general mobs. Polymorph can be reapplied at any time, including while it is still polymorphed. There isn't a single way a polymorphed mob could possibly ever touch a person, unless the mage has the worst luck ever. Trap, on the other hand, has a 30 second cooldown, cannot be reapplied mid trap, and requires the use of kiting, which occupies the hunter from DPSing the rest of the mobs. Against Moroes, Shackle is essentially just a better polymorph, and trapping has the added downside of the possibility of someone getting Whirlwinded during the kite. As for priests getting gibbed by Daris, tell them to stop standing right next to their shackles. Too often do I see mobs get shackled right next to their targets, and then the target does not move away. Keeping a 30 yard range from the shackle means that he'll have the time to reshackle even if it gets loose.


 * There is never a one right way when it comes to boss strategies, but we have a responsibility to say what is easiest. Hell, a moonkin could tank everything in Karazhan, but we won't ever advise it. Certainly there will always be variances in skill, but we write under the assumption that everyone is equally skilled at their job. —Pzychotix (talk &middot; contr) 14:40, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

There is never one right way, but having only the easiest way is not the solution either. The easiest way should be presented, but some strategies require specific class abilities that may or may not be available in the makeup of the party/raid. Secondary fallback strategies should be presented when certain class abilities are not available or state that the fight may be nearly impossible. -- Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 9:24 AM PST 4 Jan 2008


 * As many adds as possible should be crowd controlled. The adds can be controlled with the priest's Shackle Undead, the paladin's Turn Undead, the hunter's Freezing Trap, off-tanking, snares (with kiting), and stuns. Be careful when using a paladin to fear the adds, since if an add exits the room, the encounter resets. <-- It has been done long ago. Basically the argument is that the approach to Daris should be a trap, even over shackles, due to a priest's vulnerability should Daris reach the priest. I suppose an alternative for a raid incapable of effectively shackling Daris would be the hunter, but should we go ahead and assume the hunter is no better able to survive Daris with a priest incapable of shackling healing him/her? Hunter traps are more vulnerable to becoming "loose" and I personally would rather have Ferrence or Von'Indi, and even Berrybuck loose over the other three, and definitely would probably appear to be most agreeable. Daris' description says all forms of crowd control can obviously be used, nonetheless. Again, it won't cause too many raid wipes, probably, but "easier" I suppose. --Furi, January 05, 2008.

No, that's not my argument. Sorry if I didn't explain completely. Shackling is the best crowd-control in this fight for every target...until you run out of priests. If you have just one hunter and one priest, it works well to shackle Berrybuck and trap Daris. The other way around, and you have to worry about Berrybuck breaking Daris' shackle, which will be a big problem for new raiders. If you have enough priests to shackle both Berrybuck and Daris, yeah, do that. It's just that if you have to trap someone, Daris is easy to trap and doesn't cast disruptive spells when he runs from one trap to another. Depending on who is in the raid and who is next to Moroes, you're going to have a different battle plan each time.

Oh, and just FYI, a hunter without trap talents can keep a single target controlled for at least 70 seconds without kiting. That's more than enough time to kill one guest. A skilled hunter or one with the trap talents can keep a single target trapped forever. It's often a good idea to kill the trapped target second, so the hunter can stop worrying about the traps and focus completely on killing stuff. Kathucka 01:21, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Paladin Tips
the paladin tip section contains a reference to Priest Macros. Probably a copy/paste error. I'd fix it, but I cannot. Brianyee0

Alternative strategy
Something that has worked well for my group to handle Moroes is to /not/ use any CC. Our lineup for this was (1) warrior tank on Moroes, (1) paladin tank (adds, OT on Moroes), (3) melee (2 warriors, 1 rogue), (3) ranged (2 mages, 1 hunter) and (2) healers (shaman, priest). Have the warrior pull Moroes, the paladin collect adds using Avenger Shield and Consecration. DPS takes out adds in order of hit points (weakest firsT), ignoring Crispin Ference (he is harmless). Once all adds are down, Moroes is taken out. I will try to use Cleansing Totem to avoid some of Moroes' aggro drops on my next run and report back. Gear level for this is a mixture of badge loot, 5-man instance loot, heroic loot and T4. The paladin /does/ wield the Cudgel of Consecration and the SSO badge chestpiece, so might be pushing a good amount more threat than can be expected here. Ilmeni 2008-07-31 1536 PDT