Talk:Mage talent analysis

Untitled
Will be a long and tough one but I'll try to complete it eventually. Can go all the way and do the images next to names thing as in the Druids version? Adesworth talk to me 05:03, 2 November 2008 (UTC)


 * You've got help :-). As for the Druid page, I like the image, link to the talent and italic description like on this page and consider that standard. Also adding the talent requirements is extra work that can perhaps be smarter implemented by the use of tier headings. For example: Chapter =Arcane ==Tier 1 ===Arcane Subtlety and so on. The only extra necessary information is then the extra prerequisites, e.g. Requires 1 point in Leader of the Pack for Improved Leader of the Pack which would be listed under heading ==Tier 7 . 00:52, 7 January 2009 (UTC)sunsmountain
 * Unfortunately this doesn't add clarity. I don't think the talent requirements should be pointed out: They are self-evident.--Sunsmountain (talk) 00:59, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Seeking analyses
The following talents can use work from players with experience in their use: Thanks for the help,
 * Frost Warding
 * Arcane Shielding
 * Arcane Meditation (PvP section)

Adesworth  talk to me  15:36, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Each tree's progress so far: Adesworth  talk to me  04:33, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Arcane has all talents and is undergoing cleanup;
 * Fire has all talents and is undergoing cleanup;
 * Frost has all talents and is undergoing cleanup.

Patch 3.0.8 is upon us!
 * Torment the Weak mechanics must be updated and the raiding builds must fit it.
 * Arcane needs some work in raid utility sections.
 * Tooltips have to be generally updated.
 * Arcane Flows article has to be created.

Adesworth  talk to me  08:39, 21 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I signed up and expanded the Arcane tree to include all talents. I think these Talent Analysis pages should make it into the main class table - once cleaned up and structured like this one - because I think they're useful and stimulate players to make their own variations in talent builds instead of copy them. 00:38, 7 January 2009 (UTC)Sunsmountain. Also added the remaining Fire talents, all the way to Tier 11. 03:32, 7 January 2009 (UTC) Finished the Frost talents, all of them are in there now. Sunsmountain (talk) 16:18, 7 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Eh, only this one and the Druid one exist so far as I know. I hope you don't mind my meddling in some of your additions, too. Adesworth   talk to me IconSmall Mage.gif 04:32, 10 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I've noticed your corrections and agree whole-heartedly. There are currently 6, search for talent analysis and it's the first 6 hits. Currently MIA are: Warrior, Paladin, Death Knight (all the plate wearers), and the ever (but why?) unpopular Shaman. Currently improving the Hunter talent analysis. Sunsmountain (talk) 19:16, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You kind of forgot a whole tier (two talents, really) in Arcane :P, I added it. Adesworth   talk to me IconSmall Mage.gif 09:46, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * True, Arcane Flows and Mind Mastery. I skipped everything before Slow based on the list on Allakhazam, thinking or assuming it was already complete. But your previous state description was correct: "* Arcane is up to Tier 7 and has all major talents; " I completely missed Tier 8.Sunsmountain (talk) 21:03, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Undid revision to Incineration
And here's why. Arcane Blast isn't used in arcane raiding, see Mage theorycraft, so the part about Arcanists is irrelevant. Fire Blast is not a part of a Fire rotation due to its low spell power coefficient that makes it fall behind Fireball in terms of DPS. And there are more valuable talents to spend points in such as World in Flames.

Adesworth  talk to me  15:30, 7 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Er, Fire Blasts' coefficient is only "low" when one considers Improved Fireball and Empowered Fire. Otherwise, its coefficient is the exact same as Fireballs', and you are spamming. Granted, you're mostly spamming in PvE... --Sky (t · c · w) 17:49, 7 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, that applies to (arguably) any serious Fireball raiding build (the Fireball talents, that is). Haste is also a major element that applies far more to Fireball than Fire Blast. And I reverted a change to the raiding utility section. Adesworth   talk to me IconSmall Mage.gif 18:01, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Forget I ever said any of that, I'm wrong. Their problem is DPM, not DPS. Adesworth   talk to me IconSmall Mage.gif 18:35, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Arcane Fortitude Argument
I'm a little curious about the dismissal of Arcane Fortitude as a viable talent. The argument on the page right now is that the armor buff granted by Arcane Fortitude (approximately +600 armor at level 70, to use the same estimation as the author) is insignificant when compared to a piece of epic platemail. How on earth is this relevant to a class that can only wear cloth armor? I glanced at a random lvl 74 blue robe in the AH and saw that it has 227 armor. Obviously epic pieces will have better, but it's hard to see from this why 600 extra armor is insignificant to a cloth wearer at this level. The argument would make sense if this were meant to be an armor buff for a tank or something, but as I read it the talent only effects the mage's armor. Can someone explain? Palintropos (talk) 21:29, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

[[Image:Spell Arcane ArcaneResilience.png|50px|Arcane Fortitude]] Arcane Fortitude
''3 Points: Increases your armor by an amount equal to 50/100/150% of your Intellect. ''


 * Level 70 Mages have what, 400 intellect? Compare that to a single piece of plate, such as . It's a very small armor bonus.
 * Solo Utility: Mages generally shouldn't get hit when soloing. Even if they do, this is very insignificant.
 * Raid Utility: Useless. You'll be one-shot regardless.
 * PvP Utility: Compared to the amount of armor on a single piece of plate armor, this talent is very weak.
 * Bottom Line: Don't take it unless there's nowhere better to spend points in. Which is very rare.


 * I'll rewrite it with a more solid argument, it doesn't quite get the point through. Adesworth   talk to me IconSmall Mage.gif 00:25, 22 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I rewrote it. Now with far more verifiable and solid numbers. Also note I use a very high-end example, Season 4 gear, and assume a level 70 attacker. Adesworth   talk to me IconSmall Mage.gif 00:40, 22 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Great rewrite. Both things make total sense now. I'll keep my eyes open for more, but it was a fantastically helpful article. Just really got hung up on those two things. Nice you were really cool to deal with and not a troll like most of the primary authors for single articles on Wikipedia. :P [Edit: Nothing against trolls in-game, of course!] Palintropos (talk) 18:15, 22 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I think I'll put some numbers in Magic Absorption as well. Also I passed the numbers on a level 80 attacker versus 1000 additional armor and it's roughly the same as level 70. Adesworth   talk to me IconSmall Mage.gif 19:56, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Arcane Power: Increased DPM?
While I'm on the subject, what's with the claim that Arcane Power "actually increases DPM"? If the damage output and the mana cost are raised by the same percentage value (30%), then no change can possibly occur to the ratio between the two numbers. Think of it in simple terms. If a spell does 1000 damage and costs 100 mana, then it has a DPM of 10:1 (10 points of damage for every point of mana spent). Raising both of those by 30% makes it do 1300 damage for 130 mana, increasing the damage output but preserving the 10:1 ratio. It doesn't matter which number (mana cost or damage output) is higher, or if they're the same; they are raised by a proportional value which by definition doesn't affect the ratio. Of course, if Arcane Power were to do something more subtle, like affect the damage output by a percentage value after factoring in spell power and gear, then this should be elaborated. As it stands, it isn't clear what makes this claim true.


 * Was I drunk when I wrote that? My apologies. Adesworth   talk to me IconSmall Mage.gif 00:19, 22 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Also, please make more of these comments/questions. Really helps. Adesworth   talk to me IconSmall Mage.gif 01:09, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Scorch
I'd like to take issue with some of the wording here. The sentence "Fire raiders who don't take this talent are kicked out of raiding guilds." bothers me especially, it seems very inappropriate to me. This can be an essential talent, depending on what a player is doing, but I suggest that this section be rewrote. Schmaus (talk) 04:58, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It was a way of emphasizing it, but I get your point and will change it. Adesworth  talk to me IconSmall Mage.gif 23:08, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Arcane Mind
Sources on that are here and here. Adesworth  talk to me  23:49, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Cataclysm
With the blessings of the original authors and anyone else who might monitor this article, I'd like to take over the responsibility of keeping this article up to date and well commented, especially in preparation for Cataclysm. TacTican  talk to me  4:49, 27 March 2010 (EST)