Talk:Rumored Races/Archive8

Points should be independent
I keep seeing too many points added which simply reiterate or further detail what has been said in a previous point. Every point should have an independent reason as to why a race should or should not be playable; anything else can fit into the most similar existing point. Right now there is way too much clutter. --

Note from Kirkburn
Two things: It's very frustrating trying to keep track, and really not necessary. Thanks! 16:07, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) Stop changing the image labels.
 * 2) Stop trying to twist the Pandaren to be Horde-biased.

Fair enough. --


 * I want MY stupid image labels back!!!! I was the first to write'em and then you all came on and deleted them! /cry-- K )  (talk) 08:41, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I just redid the awful ones that they (or just he?) had done using Warcraft III quotes and other random stuff (like Monty Python's Dead Parrot sketch). --

I liked the old ones. Vote?-- 19:15, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm... there are a couple that had fairly good captions. However, several (such as the harpy one) I feel have better captions currently. --


 * Vote? Hell no. Since when do we need everyone's opinion just to write funny sentences under crappy pics on a totally unserious page? Let the original Rumored Races crew handle this. We choose the ones we want, that's all. No bureaucrat/AMA/bookkeeper needed for that damn thing.-- K )  (talk) 10:32, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm just saying please don't change them all the time :P 17:57, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not a discriminator, but I'd like to allow the flavor image labels changes just for the ones who were here at the time of the creation of this page, meaning the Burning Crusade's rumored race. It's not against our policy, isn't it ?-- K )  (talk) 08:10, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Too many mob races... (Also some things about Pandaren)
Really, there are too many mob races. They will not and should not be playable races ever, simply because they are and always have been mob races. They were always the creatures in WC3 that you kill with your hero and a few other units behind to gain some XP or get a gold mine. This never related to any of the current playable races. The only five I found to make sense would be Ogres, Goblins, Tuskaar, Furbolgs, and Pandaren. Speaking of Pandaren, about this argument of "they are independent", apparently no one has ever thought about relating this to Japan in the past. They wouldn't interact with the outside world, and they were by themselves. I don't know too much about history and the parts I do know I don't feel like telling, but obviously they are now interacting and allied with others in the world. The same could happen with the Pandaren, and since they have a Japanese accent and have many relations with Japan and China, I would not find this to be a surprise to happen in WoW. Not to mention how much Blizzard can change in the lore, this is only a small change that makes perfect sense. Reading through this, I just had mention it. It is a bad argument.  K a n a r u   discussion   02:18, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Some mob races do have potential, but some races are unlikly, I personally don't view Gnolls as orginized enough to be a playable race. Hordesupporter 00:52, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Race list
List what you think should be for horde and alliance and what you think was a bad idea.

Aliance: Human, Bronzebeard Dwarf, Gnome, Night elf. Burning Crusade: Drainei. Northrend: Polar Furbolgs, Tuskarr. Great Sea: Panderan. Old Allies: High Elves, Wildhammer Dwarves, Half elf. Emerald Dream: Any most likely Cenerion, Furbolgs.

Horde: Orc, Jungle Trolls, Tauren, Forsaken. Burning Crusade: Blood elves. Northrend: Ice trolls, Narubians. Great Sea: Hobgoblin. Old Allies: Ogres, Forest trolls, half orc. Emerald Dream: Gnolls

I think blood elves and drainei was a bad idea and half ogre and Arrakora should have taken there place.Airiph 16:51, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * And yet they currently exist in-game. You'll have to live with it.--


 * There almost certainly aren't enough half-ogres, and most arrakoa kill everyone on sight. :) 17:59, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

There is the less kill-y Kirrik's faction... Why does Voribs' sig keep making a blank line of text below it?-- 18:04, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

dragons do not share ancestry with Gryphons
Wyverns are a hybrid between Dragons and gryphons which is why they share traits for both.

"Shamanism is no longer a point" I disagree,Alliance has seven races and only one is shamanistic and Draenei shamans are rare and unpopular among their people.

The Horde has nine races,10 if you include forest trolls. 5(orc,ogre,tauren,troll,and half ogre) or six if the Forest trolls are included of which are shamanistic. And unlike Draenei hold their shamans in incredibly high esteem. Zarnks 22:03, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok, maybe I misinterpreted this quote - "Sharing a common ancestry with dragons and gryphons, wyverns..." etc. - and realise now that gryphons indeed are not related to dragons. Nevertheless, your explanation only then seems to reinforce the link between dragons and gryphons and thus the Alliance. That a dragon was willing to breed with a gryphon only goes to show how strong the relations between the two races were. My point still stands: this is a strong link for both factions.


 * As for your second point, I still think it is exceptionally weak. The very fact that the Alliance have openly welcomed a bizzare alien race with a number of shamans into the fold may also mean that a similarly shamanistic race somewhat closer to home may also be welcome. Heck, the night elves are even just edging on shamanism. Actually, everybody was having a go at some point: "shamans have been around since the sapient races first discovered the power of nature".


 * So what if the magnataur are shamans? So are many of the races on Azeroth, several notables being Dark Iron dwarves, quilboars and furbolgs - none of which are on great terms with the Horde.


 * I will not engage in an edit war with you, Zarnks, so I will seek an Admins confirmation before I revert again.--

I see no problem with adding a point that dragons were able to breed with Gryphons.

The shamanisic wasn't about game balance,its about culture. The Draenei don't have a real shamanistic culture,many draenei express a dislike of shamanism. Their culture revolves around the light rather then the Elemental spirits and their shamans are nowhere near as powerfull as the Horde's.

Which side would a shamanistic culture rather join. A faction revolving around the light with little attention paid to the spirits,or a faction all about the Spirits and ancestors. Zarnks 16:51, 13 July 2007 (UTC)


 * If you see no problem with adding a point stating that dragons had such a link with gryphons, then I see no reason in uniting those two extremely similar points in the General section instead of dividing them into the faction sections.


 * As for shamans: like I said in my edit, that all hinges on opinion Zarnks. Would naga join the Alliance just because the Dalarani have the biggest Mage Appreciation Society? Likely not. How about these magnataur arcanists? Then, also consider the fact that shamanistic practices are different across the different cultures. Magnataur shamanism may be entirely different to orcish shamanism, as furbolg shamanism is to tauren... and Blood Knight powers are to the Silver Hand's worship of the Light - surely a 'paladin race' would seek a culture that would bond well with their own aims; the less moral would join the Horde.


 * If the magnataur find the night elf druids and the broken shamans more suitable nature-orientated allies (as well as possible OTHER future shaman races which could join the Alliance) and the dwarves more agreeable in terms of culture (both being hairy [some shamanistic!] maniacs who appreciate good food and drink - they've probably already met!), they will join the Alliance.


 * Like I say, the fact that there are several shamans in the magnataur tribes is no big thing. Heck, they may not even appreciate shamanism that much. And... what of the other shamanistic races? Will they get labelled 'similarly shamanistic' too? :) --


 * Which side would a shamanistic culture rather join. A faction revolving around the light with little attention paid to the spirits,or a faction all about the Spirits and ancestors.
 * I don't know, ask the furbolgs. They would choose the Night Elves and Draenei.
 * Now, wait a moment, let's count how many Alliance races are strongly tied to the Light (in the same level as orcs & shamanism): humans, and now, draenei. That's all. Dwarves share their attention between Light and Titans. Gnomes, High Elves (as you counted non-playable races), Night Elves just don't care much about Light. And I think the NE care MORE about Spirits than the Light. Ok, nature spirits, not elements or ancestors, but spirits.
 * And we have TWO races with STRONG shamanist culture in good terms with the Alliance: Furbolgs (Stillpine) and Wildhammers Dwarves.
 * ...Wildie 12:16, 15 July 2007 (UTC) (sorry, first edit, forgot sign)

The wildhammers only recently picked up shamanism and like the Revantusk are only allies to their factions. they have not it for years. The Horde has an entire council of shamans unlike the Alliance. The Horde has four leaders with shamanistic powers,theres Thrall the most powerful shaman on Azeroth,Vol'jin is a shadow hunter a type of shaman,Drek'thar is more powerful then any Alliance shaman and Cairne also has shamanistic powers.

If a completely new race that was highly just showed up with no connections to either factions,it would be extremely likely that they would choose the Horde over the Alliance Zarnks 22:46, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't say wildhammers only recently picked up shamanism they have been shamanistic since before the War of the Three Hammers, we have no idea when they first became shamans.Baggins 22:49, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Murlocs in Helmets
One of the Strongly Against arguments for Murlocs is their head/torso helmet technical difficulty. I added a note about how Tauren have a similar issue and worked out just fine... however, should we just remove the argument altogether? It seems to me if Tauren helmets work, Murloc helmets would work with no problem as well... Anticrash 17:05, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

That one is the work of Ultimate Pieman. I would rather it removed.-- 17:19, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Graphics for gender don't matter
We never saw troll, dwarf, gnome, tauren, eredar, and goblin females until World of warcraft. We never even saw female humans ingame till the third game. Zarnks 05:58, 14 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed. 06:50, 14 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't say it doesn't matter at all. Still this an Ogre minus reason.-- K )  (talk) 07:08, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Remember some races like murlocs and worgen probably little difference between genders. Female quilboar and dragonspawn do exist,they are the spell casters. Zarnks 18:27, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

As do furbolg females (Princess Stillpine) --

Clothes, weapons and mounts

 * How on Earth do the points "- Do not currently have the graphical capacity to wear clothes or equip most weapons. " or "- Do not currently appear to utilize any form of mount. " have ANY bearing at all on whether a race is selected? Wouldn't it be preferred if a race currently had neither of these points so that they may seem FRESH and NEW? Did the draenei or the blood elves ever have these before they were implemented? Hell no. Could we please remove some of these frankly ridiculous and baseless points, or reduce them to a white "?" at least?
 * I think this page is going out of control. Newcomers cannot seem to grasp the fact that we did have everything tacked down pretty well only a few days ago, all - or most - with reasonable and substantiated points. A bit of tweaking here and there maybe. But not this pointless overhaul.
 * And for God's sake what happened to opening a discussion topic before making great changes to a page?--


 * If a race becomes playable, I am sure they will be able to wear the pants and shoes.-- 14:09, 17 July 2007 (UTC)


 * My point exactly. --
 * I'm sure they can solve the pants/shoes problem in a number of ways, but how can they introduce a new race such as the naga that is unable to mount? It won't be fresh and new to be forced to travel at walking speed through to endgame, and they will have to come up with something. Introduce bizarre new creatures? Special speed increasing, flying spells? All absurd ideas in my opinion, hence I currently believe the naga won't be playable for this reason. Raze 00:58, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Horde Paladins, Alliance shamans, plus or minus?
Personally, to me it seems that if a potential new race could improve the class balance for their faction, that makes it a plus for being included. (Furbolgs with shamans are probably the best example.) However, with the current blood elf paladins and draenei shamans, that may balance the players out enough to get rid of these class balances as an issue.

Any thoughts/experience?Minionman 16:05, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Whilst I am loathe to remove a possible plus point for furbolgs (:O), I feel that the total lack of Paladin races on that page (currently existing in lore, at least) in addition to the fact that many of those races are shamanic... kind of makes such a venture pointless. Furthermore, it is not only Shamans we should worry about: there are numerous other class imbalances (and gnomes and tauren still have only four choices each *grr*). --
 * Shamans and paladins have a difference of 2 between the races who can play them in each factions, the other classes are just 1 different, which is why this imbalance stood out more.Minionman 22:59, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

The addition of the new draenei shows that Blizzard is more then willingly to make up new races. Maybe uncorrupted mo'arg were paladins? Zarnks 18:43, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * My god, they make up stuff?! Someone call the police! 19:05, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Never said it was bad.Zarnks 19:19, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * No, but it was implied. And still a silly comment :) 19:23, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

What I'm saying is that their going to soley on old lore.Zarnks 19:25, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * "Maybe uncorrupted Mo'arg were paladins?" And maybe tuskarr were ninja pirates. What are you trying to infer? We can only base this future race ideas page on what is already known (with a few minor logical leaps), and whilst it is interesting to speculate what classes mo'arg may have been, right now we can only go on their demonic qualities.--

Good point I would've thought someone who said the Draenei had paladins was crazy before the burning crusade. Ya never know. Zarnks 20:34, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Point of note, Wildhammer dwarves that have always had strong ties to Alliance, have historically always had shamanism according to lore, long before Draenei ever showed up. Although they aren't likely to be made playable.Baggins 19:54, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I wih they'd differiante between Horde and Alliance shamans more. Like for instance ghost wolf for Alliance would turn you into a lion as they are the symbol of the Alliance and Wolves are the symbol of the Horde. Zarnks 19:56, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

They can't change it like that. Shamanism is a primal force that they can't really bend to their will its the elements that make the spells not the Shaman

Mok'nathal do not look like orcs.
"Most half-ogres are mistaken for small ogres, or rarely, massive orcs". Unlike most half races in Warcraft,Half ogres are distincly their own species. The orc models ingame is just a way to make it easier for the model designers. Zarnks 01:03, 17 July 2007 (UTC)


 * More like sub-species. Look at Rexxar in both Warcraft III and WoW and at your very own quote (which seems to contradict your title!). Yes, they do bear quite some resemblence to orcs. Nevertheless, it's not as if their culture and practices didn't make them seem orcish enough. --

If anything Mok'nathal look like ogres. blood elves look more like night elves then half ogres do orcs. Theres also the fact that Half-ogres could get horns from their ogre side. Zarnks 17:41, 17 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Eh? Blood elves don't look as similar to night elves as half-ogres do to orcs. Surely you have actually looked at the part of your quote which said "massive orcs" and the fact that Blizzard saw fit to actually use the current orc model. And I don't care whether they could get horns... they haven't.--

The reason why they look like orcs ingame is the same reason Blood elves used to use a reskinned night elf model. Laziness on the part of the model makers. Zarnks 18:03, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It'd be a huge waste to create specific models for the Mok'Nathal. You don't think they should prioritize their resources? Raze 01:13, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Zarnks. The lore contradicts the in-game model. If they become playable, they will get an upgrade like the elves did.-- 18:14, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Heres more proof that they don't look like orcs,this half-ogres has four toes File:Halfogre.jpg. Theres also the possibility that some could inherit the rhino-like horns of the ogres. Zarnks 20:58, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Your opinion on the matter seems overly biased towards ogre features, Zarnks. You have yet failed to address the "massive orcs" detail, which I think has quite a lot of bearing on constructing their appearance. The game model does not contradict the lore one little bit, it simply leans towards a more orcish than ogre appearance. Anyway, compare in-game Rexxar with the "orc" mok'nathal - they're not really that different at all. --


 * I'd just like to remind that according to Cycle of Hatred not all members of the Mok'Nathal Clan are "half-ogres". Which means that there are orc and ogre members as well, at least.


 * Also, if Blizzard intended all Mok'Nathal in the game to be half-ogres they could have just used Rexxar's model but changed the clothing style to differentiate between them. Because they didn't it leaves the possibility that what we see in the game are only "orcs" of the Mok'Nathal Clan. Truth be told we just have no idea if Blizzard took some shortcut and forgot to update their models, or just intended them to be non half-ogres of the Mok'Nathol Clan.Baggins 05:01, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Baggins, do you really think that as Rexxar possesses the only true half-ogre model the rest of the clan are just big orcs? You've seen Rexxar's model - it's really not so easy to redress; it's not a 'character' model and so they'd need to remodel parts entirely to create different mok'nathal appearances. We all know that when Blizzard is in a rush they're always prepared to settle for the next best thing, which in this case is the orc model. Here are a few other things to think on: Well, I could go on for ages. Suffice to say I think the Mok'Nathal tribesmen we see in-game are indeed mok'nathal. --
 * If the Mok'Nathal Clan are orcs in-game; why are they several feet taller than normal orcs and use apparel and features that attempts to make them look different to other orcs (on that point, why are all females bald with nose rings?).
 * "The clan consists of mostly half-ogres, but apparently has members of other races as well " - if this is true, then why would Blizzard fill the entire clan with orcs?
 * The clan includes many ogres in addition to orcs but... where are they?
 * Why is one Mok'Nathal called "Ogrin" if he's only an orc?


 * I never said that all the in-game "Mok'Nathal" clan members are "orcs". I'm just saying that going by lore there remains the possibility that some could be orcs. As for having orcs possibly having "ogre" like names, that's probably bound to happen in a clan that is made up of half-ogres, ogres, and orcs. In any case we'd have to take each character on an individual basis. In some of the lore in the RPG for example as I recall its specifically said or implied that at least for Rexxar one of his parents was an ogre, and one of his parents was an orc.Baggins 08:30, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes you did! I quote: "...the possibility that what we see in the game are only "orcs" of the Mok'Nathal Clan". I sense a change in tack - what point are you trying to put across now? You seem to agree with my original point to Zarnks - that the mok'nathal do heavily resemble orcs - yet you dash between contradictory statements to which I am not quite sure how to respond. --


 * Vorbis, I'm sorry I didn't mean to imply that "all" are orcs. I was mainly commenting that many of them may not necessarily be "half-ogres". Beyond that I'm sure there is a scale issue involved too, there are probably alot of members of the village that we can't see in game. As is usually the case (we'll have to wait for the population numbers in a future rpg book LOL). Yes I agree, that according to RPG their appearance can vary between those that look more ogre like and those that appear more orc like. That is what is said in Horde Player's Guide (the book only shows one example of a half-ogre however, which hardly shows all levels of variation).Baggins 08:58, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Garithos & Kul Tiras

 * "Garithos is not the best indicator of the Alliance's intentions and indeed after several weeks, was no longer actually Alliance"

To add more to the subject, people seem to miss the fact that Garithos wasn't just drawing from dalaran experiments but also you check the map you can see that he was drawing mercenaries from mecenary camps and taverns as well, behind his defensive walls. The feral pandarens were actually lead by one of the "neutral hero" pandaren brewmasters, which would likely have come from one of the taverns seen on the map.

Additionally, I don't know if you remember your Warcraft II events, but Proudmoore and Kul Tiras withdrew from the Alliance during the beyond the dark portal campaigns and never rejoined the Alliance, as far as lore has established. Jaina is a special case in that she was training in Dalaran at the time some of the members of the Alliance fled to Kalimdor and she left with them, and has kept her own personal allegiences to the Alliance, or at least her own version of the Alliance (western Alliance).Baggins 08:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Though Garithos did obviously have some supporters he had at the very least one human who didn't support him but followed his orders. Notice Garithos words were release the experiments and his belief that the only good non-human is a dead non-human. He did experiments on the furblogs too. As of note is that the pandaren joins you if you beat the mission presumably in thanks for defeating his crazed brethern. Zarnks 08:41, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually some of the creatures he releases were experiments. But many of the stuff are things that can only be trained from mercenary camps or taverns (I.E the centaur Khans are one of the special mercenary units trained/bought from mercenary camps, and can also be found in mercenary camps on other maps, mp and otherwise). The AI in the level apparently uses the tavern and mercenary structures to "hire" the special mercenary and hero units.


 * BTW, they are not even the same pandaren brewmasters from one level to the next, the names are randomly generated, and they never share the same name from one level to the next. More than likely the one in next level is more of an easter egg if anything. He's not actually directly tied to the story in that level. They don't even comment on his existence.


 * The fact that they can be either "experiments" or "mercenaries" leaves too much of a question mark. One implies they are being forced to work for Garithos, the other implies they choose to work for him as they are being paid well. Too much of a question to use it as a "negative" reason.Baggins 08:45, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I am not sure whether we can take the blood elf bonus mission as a reliable source of lore. I think Blizzard simply spruced up a level by throwing neutral mobs at the player instead of battalions of footmen. If we were to accept it, we'd also have to take the hydralisk found behind a bush and several exploding sheep as consistent with lore too. --
 * Well the bonus mission definitely has unique character dialogue that's part of the overall story. Its kind of like TFT's version of the Starcraft secret mission. But yes I agree to a certain point that at least for way they throw some seemingly random enemies its possible some of it could be of "easter egg" nature. But it definitely builds its mechanics off of the mercenary camps and tavern for some of the enemies it tosses out at the player. The manual is very specific that taverns are used to recruit "neutral heroes". If it follows mechanics used by most maps, even computer controlled forces use the same mechanics and structures (although sometimes faster than a mortal player :p).Baggins 09:12, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, I'd put the tavern and mercenary camp mechanics down to ease of implementation and aesthetics. Why make several scripts which spawn troops at specific locations when it's easier to have a simpler script applied to the appropriate building and its rally point? --


 * Well the strangest thing though is they don't follow normal mechanics exactly. In standard map a computer controlled character will "train/buy" units and they appear near the building they were spawned from. Infact a hero needs to be near the buildings to even hire the units. In the case of the map, if you use the cheat that lets you remove the fog of war, the enemies are not spawned directly from the buildings at least not noticebly instead they spawned in the same place every time, just inside the gates.


 * The actual buildings locations seem to have more of a cosmetic use, to show what garithos is drawing his forces from. Barracks (represent soldiers, knights, etc), avieries (represent gryphon riders), workshop (represents tanks, flying machines), mercenary camps (represent various mercenary units also found in other maps), taverns (represent neutral heroes), cages and magic boxes (represent experiments usually), etc. But none of these buildings are near the spawn points. So its very unclear if the buildings are being used following game mechanics ore if they are there for cosmetics to represent the various types of forces that Garithos was sending out after the blood elves.Baggins 09:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Come on its Garithos of course they were experiments,he hated all non-humans. Zarnks 17:21, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

The Tauren did not viciously attack the archeologists like you are trying to write. Khazgorm doesn't mention attacking in the journal and tauren are now known to be the most pure playable race. Zarnks 17:26, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Zarnks you know about this discussion. As for Garithos no they are not all necesssarily all experiments. He had bigotry to non-humans but was willing to hire them or use them it meant to further his plans. Mercenaries were not outside of his use. Yes he had xenophobia to dwarves and blood elves but he still used them, often in suicidal situations, but they were used to defend his land and further his aims. He was even willing to side with the Forsaken and demons if it fit his aims. As for the "attacks" by taurens its mentioned in the RPG. We don't pick and choose sources. We only cite them.Baggins 17:28, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

It says they hassled archeologists not vicously attacked them. Stonespire makes mention that dwarves rejected all attempts at diplomacy.

Before he released the pandaren he says release the experiments shortly before releasing them and why else would a pandaren fight alongside Illidan. Zarnks 17:32, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The rpg also mentions "attacks" by the tauren. The info is a valid source and cited as such. As for Pandarens they are actually the last bunch sent out long after "experiments" were sent out. The experiment units actually correspond to the same experiments creatures seen in previous dungeons of dalaran level. After it goes through those enemies seen in the previous level, he starts using enemies that are only hireable through mercenary camps and taverns in the game (multiplayer maps, and some single player maps). Pandaren are not seen in the previous level btw, there were no Pandaren prisoners in the experiment cells. As for the easter egg Pandaren in the next level. Gaining access to it is highly optional, much like the bonus level. Its not tied into the story, its just a pandaren with a randomly generated name. Most of the official guides for TFT just pointed out that bonus pandaren hero, was an easter egg bonus as far as I know. It was never intended to be important detail in the story. If it was, Blizzard would have probably had evil Pandaren boss in The Burning Crusade in one of the Outland dungeons.Baggins 17:39, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Maybe the pandaren left due to the corruption in Illidari? Zarnks 17:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I think you miss the point. The bonus pandaren hero in the Outland mission, was intended as an easter egg, to help in an already tough mission. He is not part of the story, he is not referenced in the dialogue of the mission, nor does he show up in later missions as far as I remember. If he was meant to be tied into the story he really should have appeared throughout the entire campaign or been explained in the game why he would leave after the mission was completed. But the fact remains, as far as the game is concerned he doesn't exist in that mission. If you load that mission from base stats, he doesn't even appear in the mission.


 * BTW, Blood Elves that left were already becoming corrupted at that point. They were promised power by the Naga which were acting in Illidan's behalf.


 * Oh to expand on this topic, the pandaren who were trying to stop the blood elves and naga, are actually referenced in the RPG in the Alliance & Horde Companion. In an obvious reference to the their appearance in TFT bonus mission attempting to stop the blood elves and naga escaping to Outland. However the rpg explains they came with dwarves from Bael Modan in order to try to stop them (...and no they were not experiments).Baggins 17:50, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Zarnks did you not miss the part that they are not "experiments" but rather pandarens that joined the call from the Alliance to fight alongside their friends Bael Modan dwarves to honor them, as stated in Alliance & Horde Compendium?Baggins 22:44, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

"but Proudmoore and Kul Tiras withdrew from the Alliance during the beyond the dark portal campaigns and never rejoined the Alliance, as far as lore has established"

In the WC3 manual, it says that Kul'tiras remained commited to the Alliance, and that the only ones who left were Quel'thalas, Stromgarde and Gilneas. I can't recall any other mentions of Kul'tiras leaving the Alliance after the Second War. --Austin P 03:21, 24 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Beyond the Dark Portal Horde, mission 8 VIII. Assault on Kul Tiras;
 * "We have also learned that Admiral Proudmoore is no longer a member of the Alliance and does not have the support of their armies. Remove his armada and Kul Tiras will fall."


 * I'll go see if there are other quotes later from later sources.Baggins 04:02, 24 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Alright at least going by the time of Warcraft III it appears that the Admiral allied back to the alliance, and Kul Tiras was affiliated with the alliance at the time. They are definitely afilliated during the events of Lands of Conflict. But it doesn't seem as if Tandrend is awhare of the final order his father issued, nor what they are doing in the Durotar.Baggins 04:12, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Don't think I wasn't aware of that mission in Dark Portal, I just figured that since the WC3 manual was more recent, it'd be a better source of info. It might be worth pointing out that in the Dark Portal manual, it only mentions Stromgarde and Gilneas withdrawing, although it says that "Azeroth alone" stood commited to the Alliance. --Austin P 13:20, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Gryphons/wyverns/dragons

 * If the ancestry point is to be returned to the page, can we at least have some citations to keep Sandwichman happy please? --

Warcraft III manual, and. Am I missing some kind of relevance?Baggins 17:24, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you. --
 * My bad. Then why was it removed from the main wyvern page? Well, it was put back... Sorry.-- 20:00, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * It wasn't. I'm looking now and I can still see it! ^^ --

Garithos Again
Is it just me, but isn't kind of silly to base entire speculation for "negative" points based on one man, that not even Alliance speak friendly about, and was for the most part a rogue element in the Alliance, dark knight"? He's right hated by everyone in the Alliance pretty much. I mean its pretty unrealistic to judge the entire Alliance based off the actions of one single person, who didn't even represent the entire Alliance or its member races.Baggins 22:53, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * And the experiments were there long before he took over.-- 22:55, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Ahh yes it was a Kirin Tor thing, and by then they weren't exactly full members of the Alliance, having their overal civilization destroyed.Baggins 22:57, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * He obviously had two supporters in Trogdar and Marcus but over all most people probably likely disliked him.

Zarnks 22:58, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

As I recall when Dalaran was destroyed what was left of the Kirin Tor ceased sending abassadors to the alliance, essentially broke off nearly all contact with the Alliance, and started working on experiments in order to combat the Scourge, and or find a cures for the plague. They became a fairly rogue group, and it led to the current state of the city with the glowy dome in current times (they do not let Alliance members into their city at this point). When Garithos took over what they started when brought his battleground to the city, and took over the kirin tor's experiments to use for his own means.Baggins 23:02, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not going to say this again Garithos is quite irrelevant. Considering the fact that "experiments" were not even his to begin with, it becomes even more irrelent.Baggins 23:07, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Fine I'll change it to the Kirin tor okay? Zarnks 23:08, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Where did you get the info on the Kirin Tor breaking off from the Alliance. From what I understand they never left and still are Alliance.


 * The info is in the RPG actually. Kirin Tor were not part of the Alliance at the time just after destruction of the city. They did not have council members in the Alliance nor did they let Alliance into their city, they are doing alot of things under the Alliance nose. Hell the average Alliance members, let alone non-alliance race don't even know about the experiments, they were that secret. It can't be a "negative" if no one who would care even knows about them... Come on think logically... They do not let alliance know what is happening n their city, they don't let them into the city. They try to bar them from coming to close to to their city as well. According to Lands of Conflict.


 * Currently though special members of the Kirin Tor are actually neutral to both Horde and Alliance in TBC, such as the Violet Eye. Also note that Dalaran is in what is called a "contested territory" it is not owned by either horde or alliance. There isn't much to do their for both factions beyond 1-2 quest objectives, which the Horde have more IIRC.


 * Kirin Tor are friendly to Alliance in WoW but that's about all they are good for, besides their leader helping out by being a quest objective, or giving a few quests....


 * Also if you call me alliance biased one more time I'll be forced to ban you... I'm not a role player I do not believe I live in Azeroth, nor am a member of one of Azeroth's Factions, and I do not take sides. Nor will I play that game with you. You have been warned.Baggins 23:19, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I added a note that they are no longer part of the Alliance. It will stay however. Zarnks 23:23, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * If it stays is up to me, and my fellow Admins and other peers such as Vorbis, btw. It all depends on how everyone agrees if it is relevant or not. BTW, I'm still looking into it but they may have been outside of the Alliance for only a period of time, they may have rejoined, but I want to confirm that first. But what they did when they were outside of the Alliance is irrelevent to the Alliance itself. Its also pretty irrelevent since besides Kael, and the naga and blood elves who escaped Dalaran, and members of Dalaran, next to no one even knows about the experiments they were well hidden. I can guerentee if a race never learned of the experiments they can't actually be upset about it (to repeat the idiom, "What you don't know can't hurt you").Baggins 23:27, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to make it a white but it deserves a slight mention. Zarnks 23:28, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * It only diserves a mention if it is found relevent, but that's up decision of peers and admins. Thus the reason for these discussions. I'm going to wait before I make another action to see what others think. We'll let democracy decide.Baggins 23:30, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd have to say the comment isn't relevant. It was an isolated incident, and the perpetrator died shortly thereafter. If all the ogres know about this particular experiment, I would be very surprised. --Sky (t · c · w) 23:37, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Garathos was a jerk to everyone and as was said they may have not known. This falls into the whiney 'grudges' argument.-- 23:41, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually surving blood elves and soldiers could easily tell people about the horrors in the Kirin tor dungeons. Its not as if Garithos didn't have supporters. Zarnks 03:15, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


 * If Garithos had any real influence, there's wouldn't be any dwarves, night elves, gnomes and draenei in the alliance. Also, I don't recall hearing any alliance NPCs making similar kinds of comments. In fact, NPCs of either faction are usually praising their fellow allied races. Not a real issue. Raze 16:48, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with Baggins: I don't think it's relevant. Thanks to Dalaran's secrecy and heavy defenses I don't think many people outside of Dalaran were in the forest to hear that falling tree. ;) Those blood elves who did know of the experiments cannot be considered a reliable source; especially since most of them likely followed Kael to Outland and have performed far worse deeds. Heck, even the Azerothian blood elves are having a go at torturing innocent beings. As they say: never trust an elf! Furthermore, neither Garithos nor the Kirin Tor are representative of humans as a whole - let alone the Alliance. Like Alterac, they can probably be written off as rogue elements. Um... thats all I've got, I think. It's a bit jumbled, but hey. ^_^ --


 * Funnily enough, I have the exact same opinion of the attitudes towards Grom Hellscream. Tell you what, if the Alliance stops all the back-biting about the Cenarius incident, we'll drop the fact that for a while you were led by a bloke who made Pol Pot look like Krusty the Klown. Coming Second 00:57, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Anti horde bias?
It seems alot of the information is written from an alliance perspective. Zarnks 03:14, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Also Darkspear Trolls have never been evil or used magic for evil purposes. They have always been portrayed as predominately good. This seems like one of the mistakes of the early rpg books like Trolls having good relationships with the forsaken and tauren hating them or Maiev dying and Grom being killed by Thrall. Zarnks 03:26, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Zarnks I've warned you before about accusing people of being role players, and accusing them of being "anti-horde". If you make that accusation again you will be given a short time off.


 * Also we don't pick and choose cited sources, we stand by citatiosn alone not "opinions". If you dont' like the that's fine but that doesn't mean you can go and erase them or change what they say to fit how you think the should be written, or to fit into what you think is or isn't biased. Also you forget the main point of this thread to give basic reasons for and against various races, not to list every single "nitpick" and anal rententive opinion as to why one race won't join over another. Otherwise the topic becomes overly bloated with too much information. From now if you add info to the topic and I don't see a "citation" mark at the end of your thought, I will be reverting the edits. Unless of course it is a valid opinion and can actually be cited. In which case I will add a citation for you.


 * Infact as far as I'm concerned you are on probation. Instead of you making willy nilly edits for upcoming few weeks, I'd prefer if you suggest them in the talk page before the changes are made, and giving a few days for others to decide if the changes are valid.Baggins 03:35, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

When did I accuse you of being a role player? I'm not pointing out anyone in particular just let me just point out what I find annoying. Chen a neutral mercnary helping the Horde is a white point but chen or another neutral pandaren helping the alliance is a green point. Or that you say they could find kindred spirits in the Alliance shamanistic races but not the Horde which is loaded with shamanistic races. Zarnks 03:39, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


 * You accuse people of being role players when you claim that they are "horde-biased" or somehow liking "alliance" more than the horde.


 * I've already told you as far as I'm concerned I think everything about pandarens as a playable race at all is "red". Blizzard has said they are neutral and independent and that they are not going to choose sides.


 * However the books gave more reasons why they'd side with Alliance than they did for horde, even pointed out majority, it says "most" are already friends with Alliance. That mathematically puts the "some" as it says, in the minority. The numbers spell out a "brighter" green for simply due to logistics. Remember there has to be enough numbers for a race to be viable playable race anyways. "some" is really not going to cut it. If the book had the numbers in reverse, then Horde would have had the bright green point. Again this doesn't come down to my opinion, nor what I wish the book to say, but what Blizzard had to say. Remember these books have to go through Metzen for approval like any other source. His name is written in big bold letters in the credits.


 * Even after that in the end, the book is very specific that they wouldn't side with anybody, they are only visiting and will ultimately return to their homelands. BTW, most recent references to Pandarens has them as diehard independents as well. They will be in the next book as an independent faction. Blizzard has not changed its stance.


 * I have also blocked the main topic for a few days to prevent overactive editing, and prevent the edit war. But like I said you are capable of suggesting changes that you feel should be made from the talk page, and we'll decide if the changes are valid. But we'll not be party to war editing, without discussions.Baggins 03:35, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Its not the fact that it says most are found in the company of the Alliance. Its the part that I pointed out that I feel are biased. And I think the troll part is a typo. The rpg seems to always be getting darkspear trolls wrong. Zarnks 18:17, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't know how many times to repeat this, but we don't choose the lore - meaning we report everything we're given, not the stuff we agree with. 18:23, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Just tell me why Chen a neutral mercnary helping the Horde is a white point but another neutral pandaren helping the alliance is a green point. Or how did the AH&C mention draenei when draenei as we know them didn't even exist and weren't an Alliance race then. Why don't you mention they  could find kindred in the Horde's many shaemanistic races? Zarnks 18:36, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The first part only shows that you haven't properly read the article recently - currently the alliance and horde points are both white, as they should be. Meanwhile the AH&C reference was for the Wildhammer dwarves - I've moved the draenei bit after the cite (it's still valid, and nothing to do with bias). 18:44, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Zarnks, I've noticed that you yourself seem to have a Horde bias (your user page is a good pointer). You appear to like to soften any negative points for the Horde whilst using all the ammunition you've got on the Alliance and accusing anyone who disagrees of "propoganda" of all things. Pot, kettle, black. --

I'm not argueing the point that I prefer Horde over Alliance but at least I'm open about it,and don't put Anti-Alliance in the pages.

And how come the Horde shamans don't count but the Alliance ones do.

Half-ogres points should be red for the Alliance as humans and dwarves would never accept them and the Half-ogres would not side against a faction that opposes their parent races Zarnks 03:58, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Bias in any direction doesn't belong on any page except fan-fiction, role-playing, user personal ones. Being open about it doesn't matter. And I've not seen any particular "alliance-biased" comments that are more obvious than your horde-biased ones to be honest. Raze 04:06, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Like I said I don't put it in pages. Zarnks 04:08, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

The points for Half-ogres should be red for Alliance. There are many individuals in the Alliance that wish to see all the orcs and ogres dead. And a Half-human half ogre would be a different race entirely. Zarnks 17:24, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Changing the second to red, but the first is not a unsurmountable problem, as stated by the text. 17:50, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

A half-ogre half human would be a diffrent race. Half-ogres would never side agains their parent races. In the Frozen throne the Alliance could even hire pitlords,its a gameplay mechanic. Zarnks 17:53, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually making deals with demons or hiring demons is mentioned throughout lore and the RPG, its more than a gameplay mechanic. Also, Horde Player's Guide calls a Half-ogre Half-human and I quote, a "half-ogre of human descent", it doesn't treat them a different race as much as a type of half-ogre or a subrace of half-ogre.Baggins 17:55, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

But come on the Alliance would never hire a dark ranger. Half-ogres would side against the Horde or join the Alliance especially because of people in Kul'itiras and Arathor who wish to see all orcs and ogres dead. Zarnks 17:56, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Humans and orcs are drastically diffrent races. A half-human half ogre would probably be smaller,look drastically diffrent,and has ogre blood instead of human blood. Zarnks 18:01, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes they look a little different than most half-ogres (actually it is said that half-ogre half-orcs are said to widely vary too, from those that look more orc-like to those that look more ogre like). Arathor doesn't exist anymore, that empire split into the major seven kingdoms years before orcs or ogres ever came to Azeroth. Kul Tiras left the alliance back during Warcraft II: Beyond the Dark Portal campaign (go play the game). Brann has even mentioned that Theramore home of the "second alliance" and one of the more open civilizations actually allows orcs, trolls, ogres, and others into their city to trade (shame that WoW gameplay mechanics prevents that kind of thing in game, again this is a scale issue where world of warcraft is limited by its own game mechanics). Read your rise of the horde, you'll even notice that there are human members in the horde, often used as spies in the Alliance, and the book mentions that alliance has orc members who spy on the Horde. To point to this fact, there is also the short story of Hellak Darkhorn, Tauren warrior in the service of the alliance has a run in with H'jalla Danfour, human warrior in the service of the Horde.


 * As I recall there is even an anecdote by brann of an ogre getting drunk with dwarves in a tavern in Theramore, and tearing the joint up, before they calmed him down.Baggins 18:27, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

The orc spies probably aren't real members of the Alliance just orcs who get paid by the Alliance for spying. Stormwind has a serious grudge agains the orcs,never would let a bunch of orc and ogres into the city. Its true Kul'itiras left the Alliance but they have rejoined. Zarnks 18:33, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

The orc spies probably aren't real members of the Alliance just orcs who get paid by the Alliance for spying. Stormwind has a serious grudge agains the orcs,never would let a bunch of orc and ogres into the city. Its true Kul'itiras left the Alliance but they have rejoined. Zarnks 18:33, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

OOH! Double the fun!-- 18:35, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I probably should point out the fact that Brann is friends with Thrall, Cairne, Rexxar, most of the orcs, tauren, and even the trolls, :) (He doesn't trust the Forsaken, as several have double crossed him, and he has been told not to trust them by many members of the Horde, who do not trust them either, including Thrall. He's been told to be very wary of them, so as to prevent having a knife stabbed in his back). BTW stormwind has let orcs into its city, it has half-orc citizens, there is an abassider from the Horde, Akinos, and there is at least one orc citizen who is the leading member of the the royal photraphic society of Stormwind, Thaddeus Loensbrow. Let's not forget that King Llane was on a diplomatic mission to keep peace between the Horde, when he was kidnapped by a rogue force, that wanted to stop the diplomatic talks. Things aren't as black and white as you seem to think they are... If all your going by is the MMO, your knowledge of the scale of the world is extremely limited.Baggins 18:45, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry from how RPG treats things Kul Tiras hasn't exactly rejoined. Alliance doesn't even know much of what's going on in Kul Tiras. Sure the Kul Tiras marines in Barrens are green to the alliance but that's a gameplay mechanic, but its said they are they arne't part of the alliance according to the lore, nor are they following the Alliance's commands. Infact they are following the last command of Daelin Proudmoore who was not an alliance member when he issued the command, nor wanted Kul Tiras to rejoin.Baggins 18:45, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I said a crowd of orcs and ogres. I know ambassadors and or people of imporantance can enter cities of the opposite faction. I'm not saying there isn't any cases of Alliance members being friendly with the Horde or vice a versa but there are still cases of people holding grudges on both sides.

I didn't know the information about Kul'tiras. I though they rejoined very recently Zarnks 18:49, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Although don't get me wrong, although they are not technically part of the Alliance, I'm sure that the Alliance will probably give them a helping hand if they are being invaded (by naga as is implied in Lands of Conflict) in an upcoming expansion pack, although currently they haven't sent any help to Kul Tiras at all. Much like how Alliance gives the Sons of Lothar a hand although they are technically no longer Alliance, although their faction can go from neutral to friendly-exalted with Alliance.


 * However, i'd be surprised if Blizzard let both Horde and Alliance help them out by making Kul'tiras a neutral city in a future expansion. Showing that perhaps the regular Kul Tiras people are not followers of the Daelin's marines. I seem to recall Brann mentioning that Kul'Tiras actually prefer Jaina over her father as far as leadership goes. Which could push them more towards openess to races as she stressed in her command. In anycase if the Horde decide to help them out (despite the rogue actions of Daelin's marines) that would be a very nice gesture of peace on their part.Baggins 18:59, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Worgen Model
It is worth noting Worgen recently got alot of emotes, player anims, like crafting, laughing, mounted, wave,swim etc.

Think it is worth to note it.


 * Ya, sounds interesting, I'll add it in.Baggins 16:51, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I think it is because you can become a worgen in Kara.-- 17:00, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


 * When can you do that? All I remember is that you can get turned into little red riding hood in the opera. Raze 17:09, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Ya, sandwhich, I agree. But still it makes a compelling point ;). Raze, you can turn into an worgen by using one of the books scattered throughout the tower.Baggins


 * Ty. I'm gonna have to steal one next time (even tho I'm a healer). Raze 17:25, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

"Animal Type Race"
Someone mentioned this before, but it didn't really seemed to get dealt with. It seems that any sort of race with any sort of "animal like" characteristics gets the green for alliance. It seems a bit of a stretch, though, that being "animal like" in any way would count that much for an alliance race. On some of them the green appears to cancel out an alliance reds, such as Naga, where the reds in fact seem to be much stronger than the "animal-like". Changing them to white may work o.k., but either way it doesn't seem strong enough for the appaearance it gives of likelyhoods of races being alliance.Minionman 17:19, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Seconded.-- 17:20, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Thirded, those lines don't belong. Raze 17:25, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Fourthed :) I always thought it was odd too 18:24, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The only reason people put green on those is because they think the factions should be balanced out with more ugly/pretty or feral/modernized races :p. So it isn't just dusty bunch vs the shiny squad. The counterpoint to this practice that the so-called "pretty/non-animal" races tend to be a green + for horde.Baggins 17:26, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Removed all the "animal" lines. 18:48, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

When I brought this up a few archives back it only got the "animal" mention off Satyrs. :P Hordesupporter 03:18, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Silithid
If we're adding things like murlocs, or especially demons and naga, shouldn't the Silithids be considered? They're one of the oldest races on Azeroth, extremely intelligent, and just because they're currently serving the Old Gods (naga are as well, what with them being naga because the Old Gods turned them into such) doesn't mean they can't break away like some are suggesting demons could. There are at least two Silithids who look vaguely humanoid... the Twin Emperors (I know they use the male NE model) and Battleguard Sartura. That gives a male and female model. The females do fly, but they could be easily forced to walk the ground with their wings still in tact (those tiny bug wings shouldn't be able to carry something that large anyway). They already have their own style of architecture, and there's already a mount in game that they could ride. Because of the past War of the Silithids, it is unlikely that they would join the Alliance. *shrug* I'm just trying to be logical. 07:56, 24 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Good point, a breakaway faction may well be possible and you are thinking of the Qiraji. I vote for the adding.-- 01:40, 29 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Erm... personally I'd draw the line way before ethereals, Faceless Ones and makrura which I would never personally see happening in their present state. In fact, I would think their existance on that list is illogical. The same with Qiraji (not silithid, which are brainless bugs) - the possibilities with these sapient races are endless: but I'd rather stick to those races which already seem prepared for the mantle of playable race (i.e. not entirely hostile, use armor and weapons, well spread out, consistent appearance, etc.). --


 * Oh, the draenei were all those things before the expantion.(Sarcasm)-- 00:33, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Dude... lilythmageborn... Don't try to compare naga to Qiraji, Qiraji are openly helping Old Gods, whereas with naga thoughit is known that naga became what they are because of the old gods, there is actually very little information about how devoted the Naga currently are to the Old Gods, if at all. In fact I'm fairly certain the Naga that serve Illidan are serving Illidan alone, with probable admiration and alliegence to their queen. On the note of Naga supporting others, just as Vashj's naga serve Illidan, it's possible for more naga to branch from the main naga population and join the alliance or horde(Probably horde due to extreme hatred for NE's). Not to mention naga already consider Blood elves as their bretheren due to common ancestry. Qiraji on the other hand have no relations with the horde or alliance except for that of the hostile kind.--Feldaldor 2007

The Nibelungs
Yeah well.... I saw possible races like makrura, then a possible race would be the nibelungs. They are.... they are cool :D


 * Nibelungs? I can't think of any Warcraft race referred to as such, though in Germanic mythology and Wagner's Der Ring des Nibelungen that word is used in reference to dwarfs. If this is what you meant, why do you think we need more dwarves? ^^ --
 * I think I saw a blood elf in the movie "the ring of the nibelungs", so they should be able to join the horde


 * Yes, well Richard Wagner called the dwarves in his Ring operas the "Nibelungs"; and obviously there are a host of other mythical creatures too. Nevertheless, dwarves already appear in World of Warcraft as an Alliance race, so I'm afraid that's a "no".--
 * I wondered what he was talking about as well. They are not in WoW. He is just trolling.-- 00:49, 30 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Even if they're not dwarves they'd be elves, so no. I think Daflak is under the misconception that he can propose any race, whether it's in WoW or not. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 12:02, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

narubians
in the northrend expansion the horde race should be narubians.the narubian should be the 1 in the sons of storm.

they could have warriors,mage,necromancers,and shaman.they should be for the horde.Airiph 16:56, 30 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Nerubians perhaps?-- 17:18, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

yeah! in talk pages im somtimes too lazy too spell it right lol.Airiph 21:07, 30 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Nevertheless, I think we know what you want in future expansions only too well. --

and ideas though?Airiph 21:10, 30 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, though I've put them all on the "expansion ideas" page. --

ok!Airiph 21:18, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Chen's Empty Keg

 * The quest chain is Horde-only. You might want to note this in the Pandarens section. Garm 19:33, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Naga

 * I'd say they'd go well in Forsaken-type lore. This would support them being in the Alliance. Also, Illidan's naga helped rescue Tyrande at one point in TFT. Garm 19:38, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I believe that was mainly because Illidan wanted them to. He cares for Tyrande, but I don't believe many of the naga do (especially not Vashj, his majordomo, and actual leader over these naga). The naga and the night elves loathe eache other, and I don't believe any coordial friendship between the two races will be possible. Besides, the blood elves were banished from the alliance by Garithos for joining forces with the naga (although Garithos was an extreme racist). I believe they might fit better in the horde. The naga have more potential to be allies to the blood elves rather than the night elves, I believe. Kael did, in fact, join forces with Illidan and the naga of own free will, rather than being forced to accept their aid, like Malfurion and Maiev. But yes, I believe a rebel faction of naga that opposes both Azshara and Illidan would not be too hard to implement, but it would be loads and loads easier to add them to the horde than the alliance, mainly because the horde has blood elves, and the alliance has night elves. No offence, but their mindset also fits much better with the horde and the blood elves (or perhaps even the Forsaken). --Kulsprutejojjo 21:36, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I respect your opinion. The problem with it is that the naga have already dismissed the Horde as ruthless savages. Also, Illidan is/was a night elf. The draenei (or at least a sect of them) also joined Illidan, too. Garm 22:34, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * That won't stop a rebel faction of naga to change their opinions of the horde, right? I mean, the horde does not loathe the naga as the alliance do, and one can not say that Akama speaks for the whole Draenei race, since he is a broken. Also, he had no experience with naga before, and merely believed Illidan and his naga to be an aid against the fel orcs in the black temple. Besides, he betrayed Illidan afterwards, when he realized how evil Illidan really was. And I don't believe you can connect Akama to the playable draenei race in such a big way that his descicions would be the same if the normal would have been in the same state. I'm sorry, but your argument just isn't strong enough. Akama isn't loyal to the alliance. Besides, even if the draenei would want the naga in the alliance, the night elves would forbid it strictly. As I said, they loathe the naga, and I can't see any coordial friendship between the two races unless Blizzard decides to screw up the lore completely. They are true enemies, and the night elves would never allow the naga into the alliance. But I could predict the horde having sympathy for the naga if they descided to put away their evil nature. The horde is always open for races that wishes to redeem themselves. Even if the horde may sound brutal to them, I still believe they find the alliance much, much worse, because of the night elves. --Kulsprutejojjo 23:42, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I strongly think a rebel naga faction would try to make amends with the night elves. Everyone would still hate them though.-- 23:46, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I see a rebel naga group as one of the stronger horde possibilities for a few reasons: They have already allied with the blood elves, and would easily do so again, they are magically skilled enough, and naga culture is uscrupulous enough, that they could use the captured naaru route ot add another Paladin race, they can go anywhere near an ocean and could easily add continent balance, and fit in with the Forsaken/blood elf section of the horde very well.Minionman 02:06, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Mate, the problem with that is that no more naaru would be introduced, seeing as the next expansion is a non-Outland one. Garm 11:45, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The idea is that they would use Muru for their paladinsMinionman 13:21, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I've decided to mesh our ideas to both folders. Garm 11:29, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Wonderful idea, Garm, but I would change some of the points. I believe instead of "Who said that naga rebelling would make them change their minds?", it should say "That doesn't mean that the rebel can't change their opinions about the horde". Besides, I believe that the Kurenai point only should be dark green. Why? They do not really represent any higher force in the alliance, and they surely mostly revere the naga because of their power rather than friendship. I would also like to expand the "mindset meshes well with the horde" a bit. They are a bit arrogant, like the blood elves, and have also had their looks and livestyles changed drastically, like the forsaken. It would be very wise if you added that motivation to their mindset meshing with the horde. and that naga friendship with the alliance - point should be red, not orange. When most hate them, they would definitely not get in that easily. Also, I don't believe many in the alliance at all likes the naga, so the "some like 'em" should rather be "some doesn't care". anyways, great initiative. I just believe it needs some tweaking before it can get into the article. --Kulsprutejojjo 11:53, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Alrighty. Tweaked. (I'm trying to keep unbiased. Whereas I personally favor naga in the Alliance, a few others like them in the Horde. This could create promblems seeing as the bias involved will be irritating.) Garm 12:06, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I am not aiming for a biasing in any direction either. I just try to tweak it better to fit more in with the lore. It is currently well known that the naga and the night elves don't get along. It would be really, really hard for Blizzard to put them in the alliance just for that reason. It still might happen, it's just very, very unprobable. The naga definitely knows the night elves are not that dumb that they just accept the naga without any proof of redemption from their sins. and the whole idea of Illidan being a former night elf before turning into a half-demon doesn't nessecarily mean it's a reason for the naga to join the alliance. He isn't called "the Betrayer" to the night elves without a reason, y'know. And tha the tauren hates Azshara because she is not the earthmother is just stupid. Elune is not the earth mother either, and the tauren revere her (although not as much as the night elves). And I don't believe any rebel faction of naga would ever follow Azshara's beliefs anyways, so the tauren does not really have a reason to hate them for the fact that Azshara doesn't care about the works of the earthmother. I believe trolls may hold a small grudge against the naga, though, but the Sea Witch was working alone on the trolls' home island, and may not be the target of the trolls hatred, which I believe is more directed to the murlocs that worshipped her instead. After all, the awakening happened after the third war, and that happened shortly before. Besides, wasn't she undead, too? I believe that is all the tweaking we need for now. Once again, sorry for being so correcting of certain things in the list. While i do want nagas in the horde, it is not my intention of tweaking the list to be horde-favored. I just want it as accurate as possible. I'm sorry, but it is just too hard for me to imagine them in the alliance. Forgive me if I may sound a bit like a police or something. --Kulsprutejojjo 18:45, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It's okay. At least you have noble intentions, much like Vorbis. Also, I've done some tweaking to the Naga portion so as to make it acceptable. Here it is! Garm 18:50, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

-_-... dude you're still ignoring many of the points given by KulSprute, and I'm about to give more points. Ok First of all, it should be at MOST lime green that the kurenai will introduce the naga into the Alliance, for as you put they are merely alliance affiliated, and are not as impactful to the alliance as unaffected or Unbroken dreinei are.Also I think you misunderstand why the Naga despise the night elves, and not Illidan. Illidan was a night elf, yes, but he helped Azshara back in the War of The Ancients, so he was in fact, at leaste a neutral elf in the eyes of naga, possibly even something of an ally. and once Illidan found power and apparently was a source of help for the Naga to retake the surface world, they revered him to extreme levels. This would probably increase yer Illidan point to green! As for the amending hostilities between naga and night elves.... Don't make me laugh. The naga loathe and detest the night elves at the leaste as traitors, and also see them as the reason they were turned into the wretched creatures they are. In fact Naga hate night elves beyond rational reasons, that point should be orange.And as for Tyrande, she didn't consider the naga her saviors, she considered Illidan the one who saved her. Now again, the trolls have not have had SERIOUS skirmishes with the trolls, in fact yes the sea witch WAS working alone, and WAS not a naga at all, she was an undead veangeful spirit of the oceans. Also... the Naga do not dismiss the Horde as savages who practice holy magic they dismiss the orcs as muscle brained, dimwitted savages. And this is hardly even a difficult mindset for a race looking for veangence on another race (the NE's) a difficult thing to overcome at leaste enough to be considered their ally. Another point is that the Naga consider the Blood elves their bretheren due to their common heritage and would gladly ally to the Blood elves that should be a light green point for the horde side. The Scryers are a minimal population of the blood elves that takes up outland. and most of the horde I think don't know of Kael's connections to the burning legion... Also um just for you to understand the Burning legion isn't an organization, it's a HUGE army. that point about kael should be increased to at leaste an orange if not a white.Now I might seem biased to the horde, however the truth is I just am a weathered Elf/elvan history studier, and I feel strongly for when I see something that goes against my studies, nd trust me, a night elven and Naga alliance.... is a huge no no that would take a wc4 to properly create even a hint of naga and NE alliance.--Feldaldor 2007


 * COMPLETE! (And ready to update the naga folder) Garm 19:20, 4 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Ummm... why is it that this hasn't been added to the article yet? Besides, the Illidan point still doesn't refer to the naga. That he was a night elf before becoming a half-demon doesn't mean that it is relevant to the naga case. I mean, he is not a naga. However, the naga were Night Elves before their transformation, so I believe it should say that there instead of Illidan. I'm changing that now, and adding the whole thing to the article, if nobody has any complaints. --Kulsprutejojjo 14:08, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Please note that the article is not for people to espouse their hopes and desires - it is for a fact-based analysis of who could be chosen as a new race for WoW. 18:23, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't want to brag, but I did not talk about my opinions. Seriously, the things that are written below is not just opinions. At least you could add a few of them into the article, because many of those listed are pure gold arguments both for and against adding them in my eyes! Just because one argument doesn't qualify doesn't mean all arguments in the list does. I lay my word now if you're still not convinced to add any of these arguments. But just so you know, many of these arguments are pretty good in my eyes. --Kulsprutejojjo 20:18, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


 * So long as they can be reasonable proved and/or cited :) The article is now unlocked for people to edit, what I wrote above is just a warning not to go overboard. 20:34, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I understand. I will try to look up good sources for those I can find it for, and try to add it. I'll try to make sure not to post uncited stuff. --Kulsprutejojjo 21:06, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * My arguments are heated but not based on desires and hopes. I base my arguments on what I know. What I've said has been valid.Feldaldor 09:34, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

General

 * +Forsaken-type lore. Probably against Illidan and Aszhara, with a rebel tribe. (Dark green)
 * +Since they are of the ocean, they can swim to almost anywhere and easily add contintent balance. (Light green)

Naga in the Alliance?

 * +The naga and Broken were allies in Outland. Because some Broken (Kurenai) are already affiliated with the Alliance, and revere the naga, it is somewhat likely that the naga will be nominated for the Alliance. (Dark green)
 * +An underwater breathing/ Forsaken-type race would be a great balance to the Alliance. (Dark green)
 * ?The naga were all night elves before their transformation at the Sundering.
 * ?They could possibly amend any hostilities with the night elves, given Tyrande, who was once rescued by these naga, is leader. Other night elves might hesitate, however, especially the impatient Fandral Staghelm.
 * - Naga friendship with the Alliance has been entirely on night elf views. Few like 'em, some don't care, but most hate 'em. The Alliance's viewpoint hasn't changed yet to satisfy naga friendship to be any other way.(Red)
 * - Akama does not speak for all Draenei, because he is a Broken. Some of the uncorrupted draenei, such as the Aldor, probably have hostilities with the naga already. In addition, Akama and the Ashtongue Deathsworn aren't in the Alliance. (Red)

Naga in the Horde?

 * +Their outlook and mindset meshes really well with the Horde. They would also be motivated in a smililar way to the Blood Elves. They've also suffered much like the Forsaken. (Lime green)
 * +The Horde is always looking for races who wish to redeem themselves. If a rebel naga tribe were to look for someone to join, then they can change their mind about their opinions on the Horde. (Dark green)
 * - The Horde are already dismissed by the naga as ruthless weakling savages who are practitioners of divine magic, and will have no part with them.(Red)
 * - The trolls have had feuds and skirmishes them in the past. The naga could have redeemed themselves and/or are simply not affiliated with the Wrathtail tribe. (Orange)
 * - Kael does not speak for all Blood Elves. Some blood elves dislike Kael's ideas and beliefs, like the Scryers, and would downright reject the naga so as to not stoop to his influences. In addition, Kael has disassociated himself with the naga and instead joins the Burning Legion, an organization the Horde absolutely hates. (Red)

Pandaren
With a whole buncha problems with the tabs, and people twisting the Pandarens to be Alliance-biased (no offense to anyone)... Garm 12:31, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The problem with the Pandarens being in Alliance is that it is unacceptable for numerous reasons.


 * One, Ironforge is a pure-ly indoors place, and the Undercity would be second in terms of indoorness, as would Exodar. However, both Undercity and Exodar have some outdoors. Pandarens are known for being around nature.
 * Two, the gnomes would not find the Pandarens tolerable, for they are indifferent to machines, whereas the machines are what the gnomes dwell upon. Also, the gnomes associate with the arcane, which is generally shunned in Pandaren society.
 * Third, there are rare instances of shamanism in the Alliance. It could help to give the Alliance a shaman class, but to add insults among other insults, the draenei have very little numbers in shamans, for some despise it, and the Wildhammer Dwarves are not in the Alliance, they just hate the Horde so badly they allow Alliance in.
 * Fourth, this defeats the purpose of any new Horde race trying to get people's attention. This would make Blizzard hypocritical, seeing as Blood Elves and Draenei alike get equal attention from players anyway. Blizzard wants people to play Alliance and Horde, not just Alliance. Garm 13:57, 1 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok, let's see:


 * Ironforge - is nature purely plants and fresh air, or do snow and stone not count in the grand scheme of things? The pandaren seem to be perfectly comfortable with the dwarven way of life, which unsurprisingly is very in touch with nature (and beer). The Forsaken undead, however, lack nature entirely; their city reeks of death and pollution, the Forsaken themselves unnatural entities planning to exterminate all life on Azeroth. Tell me how the pandaren would favor the living dead over their (arguably) best friends, or see space-faring aliens as better than the short people having accidentally destroyed or corrupted the ecosystem of an entire island chain.
 * Gnomes - how on Earth do you know this? Do you really think the gnomes are dead set against anybody who doesn't care much for technology? Why haven't they denounced the night elves yet? Come on, this is just a wild stab in the dark. Furthermore, why should the technological gnomes be shunned over the evil magic-guzzling blood elves? Gnomes use magic conservatively just like any other race in the Alliance, and as a race do not place any great value in the arcane arts. However, blood elves (and Forsaken to a lesser degree) use it with reckless abandon. Tell me who should be favored.
 * Shamanism - this is just weak. And incorrect. Velen, leader of the draenei, has absolutely nothing against shamanism and allows it to flourish: anti-shamanic sentiments is just like any other religious discrimination; unwanted and not encouraged by the state. I'm sure Nobundo and the draenei, furbolg and Broken shamans would appreciate pandaren support. And the Wildhammer Clan? Read up - they're very chummy with the Alliance alright.
 * Hypocritical? - Oh come on, seriously. This is a somewhat incorrect use of the word. Where did Blizzard ever say they were actively attempting to divert players away from the Alliance? They did not. Blood elves have had their place in the sun and have attracted quite a number of new Horde players; if Blizzard want to put the focus on an Alliance race instead they are quite free to do so. And who says that the Horde will not get their own big wahoonie of a race? --


 * I mentioned the Wildhammer, didn't I? Also, be careful with what expression you say. I'll try to be careful also. They'd want balance when it comes to being able to play as Alliance and Horde. Suppose Murlocs get put in Alliance, which plausible if they redeem themselves. People will start playing Alliance and ignore Horde? (which could happen, we've all seen how Metzen can do things) Garm 14:37, 1 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think players of one faction are quite so fallible as to entirely jump ship because of a single race. If that happens, then Blizzard must have seriously messed up in the development of an opposing race to have created such an imbalance; and failed entirely in their estimation of World of Warcraft players.--
 * Alright, I'll let you edit the general, Alliance, and Horde to modify any statements you find "biased". That way, you can be satisfied. I heard you're an admin, so I'm making a wise decision on this. Just be careful with the wording is all. Garm 15:07, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

do you realy think they should even become playable?they are independent,they were a neutral race in W3.Airiph 15:39, 1 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Garm, I'm not trying to defeat you or impose my own ideas on you; and the below, being of your own fabrication, is not a part of the main page and is therefore not mine to edit. I'm just playing devil's advocate, pointing out inconsistencies in your argument so you can make them stronger. I'm a teacher; it's the kind of thing I do. ^^
 * I am not, however, an Admin and even if I was my special powers should not be used to give me an advantage in a debate. ;) --

I find the point that they could find kindred spirits in Alliance shamans quite hypocritical. Most Draenei look down on shamanism and the Wildhammers aren't part of the Alliance. While the Horde races are known above all else for their shamanism. Zarnks 20:46, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

General

 * + Great idea for expansion packs not having to do with Outland. (Dark green)
 * - It depends on who gets to them first, because they uphold friendship and honor amongst all other virtues. If one perspective is heard before the other, the Pandarens could hesitate to join either faction. (Orange)

Pandaren in the Alliance?

 * + Mojo Stormstout might have the Pandarens strategically going to the Alliance, and whatever he says goes. (Dark green)
 * - Fans believe that Pandarens will eventually join the Alliance. Metzen would use that against them and probably place them in the Horde to use the element of surprise, and we've seen what Metzen can do. (Orange)
 * ? Pandarens do not necessarily associate with the arcane, which humans, gnomes, and draenei all dwell upon. However, the trolls, undead, and blood elves also rely on this as well.
 * - Pandaren being in the Alliance is unacceptable because it defeats the purpose of the Blood Elves and any other Horde race being in the Horde, because the Pandarens are so popular nearly everybody would play it. Blizzard doesn't play that kind of backstabbing game, and in fact would be shady amongst Horde players if the Pandarens were put in the Alliance. (Red)
 * - The gnomes would be slightly disturbed by the Pandaren's indifference to their technology. Pandarens do not favor machines, and they dislike goblins for this.(Orange)
 * ? The city of Ironforge is absolutely indoors, with little to no windows, and it would bother the Pandarens, who would like to be surrouned by nature. However, if you consider the snow outside Ironforge, that would count as outdoors.
 * - The Alliance has done heinous crimes in the past, notably before recruiting night elves or draenei, where they have both enslaved orcs in Durnholde and tried to truce them, but eventually backstabbed the orcs in Kalimdor. They also neglected to help their former blood elven friends. They also hunt the Forsaken as monsters. The Pandaren believe in honor and friendship above all other values, and if they find out the humans backstabbed blood elves and orcs, and hunt the Forsaken for little to no reason, they will not join the Alliance, no matter how many times the dwarves and night elves beg. (Red)

Pandaren in the Horde?

 * + Blizzard would probably add them in the Horde in an attempt to get more players to play Horde, seeing as though there's an imbalance between Alliance and Horde, of which there is obviously more Alliance players than there are Horde. (Lime green)
 * + If Mojo Stormstout advises Pandarens to join the Horde, seeing as he's the best strategist in the game, then the Pandarens have no strategic choice but to follow. (Dark green)
 * + The Royal Apothecary Society are a group of alchemists much like the Pandaren brewmasters. Sure, this society is mysterious, but they would mainly work on problem-solvers, poisons, and/or antidotes. Faranell also could take notice what alcohol does to dwarves and humans and make a series of alcoholic potions, in which the Pandaren would gleefully join in. The Pandaren and the Forsaken would have a thing in common- Alchemy expertise. (Dark green)
 * ? The Taurens would immediately accept the Pandarens because they, too, worship the Earthmother. The Orcs would also be friends of the Pandarens because of the spritual comparisons. The Trolls might want to consider the Pandarens because they are immensely loyal to Thrall and the Orcs and whatever they say goes. The Forsaken could use a little help in terms of alchemy, and Pandarens are perfect for that. Also, they want to earn trust, and helping the Pandarens is one of several ways they can gain it. The Blood Elves might hesitate, since they do not know too well about the Light. And the Pandaren might find their mana addiction very creepy and might shun it. We've seen what Metzen can do, however, and if the Blood Elves redeem themselves enough to be at least cordial with the Pandarens, this would make them friendly with all of the Horde.
 * - The Horde's demonic past would make the Pandaren hesitate in joining their side. However, if the Horde explains their redemption, this can be arranged. (Orange)
 * - Some of the poisons that the Royal Apothecary Society makes might creep some of the Pandaren out, even if they have something in common with this organization. Of course, the Society itself may add alcohol in some of the poisons as an influence from the Pandaren. (Orange)