Talk:Kelen

"Kelen's death is not clearly established, so we don't know if he survived Hellscream's assault. However, considering he lived through Thrall, Arthas, Kel'Thuzad, and Archimonde, it's improbable that a mere orc could stop him."

Grom Hellscream? A mere orc?

I'd say Grom is a "mere orc" compared to Archimonde, Arthas or Kel'Thuzad. -- TM41 01:10, 6 November 2006 (EST)

Kelen the Seeker is randomly generated into missions, he was not always in the missions this article said he was. the random archmages could be other archmages.Baggins 04:03, 28 June 2007 (UTC)


 * That's very odd, because he's alway in those missions when I played them (except for the original Dalaran one). Kelen's the one who was leading that expedition and was the Archmage that Grom attacked. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 13:16, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Ragestorm I played each mission 10 times to confirm it (very simple use of the removing the fog of war cheat to spy on the enemy territories, and reloading the level multiple times to see if there was any difference). He only showed up occasionally (That is a hero existed, but its name was different almost every time I reloaded). If its controlled by say certain "patches", i.e early patches he's "locked" and later patches he's "randomized" then that fact would be very important indeed. It would mean that blizzard changed the status of that "hero" for a reason. As a side note the article as lunarfalls wrote it was a bit too detailed and full of colorful descriptions that went beyond what the game portrayed on the manner. Essentially creating a backstory fanfic for an unimportant npc.

P.S. If I must I'll even show you screen captures later, as soon as I'm set up and have access to to my files again.Baggins 23:56, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


 * He was also present in the Rexxar campaigns, fighting alongside Admiral Proudmoore. He was bloody hard to kill.  Given how often he turns up, I think he warrants a page.  And he's not an Archmage in the Frozen Throne, he's a Paladin. Coming Second 00:05, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * He's a random hero he can randomly appear in any campaign, like any random hero. Just some people spot him ore than others. While he won't appear for other people. Its all chance. Random heroes do not diserve their own pages. He is definitely an "archmage"Baggins 00:07, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm going to be forced to make the random hero pages, screenshot galleries just to prove which hero units on which maps get randomized, then there won't be wild claims from people who think they know "who" showed up in each of those particular campaigns...Baggins 00:14, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Are you sure about this randomised malarkey? I've seen plenty other pages about minor NPCs (e.g. Serena Scarscale and Araj the Summoner) which were random names for heros in the multiplayer, but were also fixed heroes within the campaign. It seems to me that sometimes it's fixed and sometimes it's not.  I'm pretty sure Kelen has never changed for me, but I'll play it again tomorrow to make sure. Coming Second 00:18, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Something can't be fixed and then not fixed. When its randomized its always randomized. However with anything random there is a small chance that you could end up seeing the same hero names more than once on reloading the level, but that's because it randomly picked the same character name multiple times, do it 10 times in a row your more likely to see other units instead. Its like flipping coins, there is always 1 in 2 chance you'll flip the same side each time. However for heros there is more like a 1/10 chance of having the same hero show up. BTW I'm loading the missions up as we speak and will be making screenshots to show you all.Baggins 00:23, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * No, what I mean is, in certain missions it is randomised, in others it isn't. Anyway, tell us what you find. Coming Second 00:29, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Indeed there are a few missions where the characters are not randomized. The archmage ghosts in Dalaran prison for example are always the same. The paladins that are with Uther Lightbringer when Arthas has to kill him, are never randomized either. There are also some unique hero names that show up in certain campaign missions well. Names that don't show up on blizzard's hero name list on their website. Those are always static as well.


 * I've had to be extremely careful in the past to make sure I haven't made the mistake of assuming something is static. Before I made an article I always reloaded the level, used "Iseedeadpeople" multiple times until I could confirm if it was randomized or not. I have a screenshot for riders in the storm coming up. That's the first alleged Kelen appearance, on the Darkspear islands. You'll notice I did not get him either two reloads.Baggins


 * You could have cleverly forged that with the map editer. -- 01:07, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Eh, I hope your being sarcastic... You can go check for youself, :).

BTW, when people reference WC3 information they really should cite the mission name for each section of information related to a level, so that people can confirm the info for themselves, and to check to see if they are static heroes or randomized.

Peoplereally should check a level multiple times to see if heroes are randomized or static before they create a topic. I understand it could be harder on the rexxar campaign since you'd essentially have to restart the entire campaign to check for random elements.Baggins 01:09, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * OK just checked the the last mission of the Bonus Campaign, "Theramore City". I got Landrazar as the randomized Archmage my first load, and I got Kelen the Seeker my second load, and I got Tenn Flamecaster my third load. Defnitely a random character. That means Kelen is random in every map that has ever been mentioned in this article. Its accuracy as I said before is nil. We can't pass off inaccurate fanfic as "fact".


 * As a side note the Theramore City Archmage is listed with the subtitle/class "Chief of Chaplains", which would make for a worthy article. The Chief of Chaplains just can't be assigned a specific name.Baggins 01:33, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

One point of notice is an item found in th orc bonus campaign called Kelen's Dagger of Escape. Considering both this and all the appearances he has made and survived. It makes sense that he is not a randomly generated character.


 * Sign your posts. This has been said before, that he is infact a randomly generated character. It can't make sense that he is "not a randomly generated character", because he is not ever static in any map. So that claim is so wrong on every level. Also there is reference at least three characters named Kelen. One is a rogue (your Dagger of Escape is a reference to him as established in the RPG), one is a blood elf blood mage (a random generated blood mage), and one is a human archmage (the random generated archmage we are talking about). Although its possible that they are intended to all represent the same character (physical disguise is actually a common glamor spell that can be found in the rpg). This new kelen article brings that up in speculation.Baggins 01:29, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The three may not be the same, of course.-- 01:32, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Of course. But what it does mean is that Kelen's Dagger of Escape has nothing to do with Kelen the Seeker the archmage on one level, but rather is about a rogue instead.Baggins 01:35, 3 January 2008 (UTC)