Talk:Vanndar Stormpike

Who started it?
The frostwolf clan is peaceful. Read lord of the clans. In Warcraft TFT Drek'thar was the one who reminded Rexxar not to attack the humans.-Brickster

Uh-oh why do you think they're attacking the Stormpikes ? These ones are here just for archaeologic reasons. And both the hatred between Horde and Alliance and the willing to keep the whole land theirs made the conflict. There are enough good reasons for both opponents that's why this zone is a battleground.--Kirochi 06:31, 30 April 2006 (EDT)

The Stormpikes are attacking the Frostwolves. The Frostwolves have villiages with women and children there in Alterac and they have done nothing wrong. The Stormpikes don't own the world and can't just take whatever they want.


 * This was an ALLIANCE place before the Orcs corrupted the citizens of Alterac and drove them to their ruin because the Aliance discovered their treason. And the Frostwolves also attack the Stormpikes. That wouldn't be a BG otherwise--Kirochi 13:54, 1 May 2006 (EDT)

The kingdom of Alterac was an alliance kingdom that did not include the valley. The valley was hidden no one knew about it except the Frostwolves. It was King of Alterac(Pernolde) who allied with the corrupted horde(which did not include the frostwolves)and was destroyed by the alliance. The Frostwolves are defending themselves. The Froswolves taught Thrall and I'm suprised the alliance are attacking them. Vanndar Stormpike is like Pizzaro a foreigner in a new land who seeks to genocide its native inhabitants for material goods.

It even says the Frostwolves wanted to remain neutral in the conflict between the alliance and horde.

Brickster, words cannot describe how stupid you and Goblin sapper are. THE FROSTWOLF CLAN IS ATTACKING THE STORMPIKE EXPEDITION. IT EVEN SAYS SO ON THE OFFICIAL SITE. END OF STORY.-Bubblehearthlol

All of you are being morons. Wowwiki is supposed to be completly neutral and it needs someone who can see both sides of the conflict. Basicaly the Stormpikes(respectable dwarves from ironforge who want to find out more about the past) want artifacts now thats not evil,the Frostwolves(good honorble shamans) want to protect the land they find sacred from harm thats not evil either. Angry ogre


 * Yup. No big deal. They're just fighting cause they're good and honorable. Like Russel Crowe. But the f***ing Pizarro is much more the people coming from another planet and taking lands without asking than the ones who just come to find ancient items to gather history and knowledge to me. Bael Modan's Dwarves are way worse than Stormpikes, as they drove Tauren off their village, whereas the Stormpike stick in their part of the valley.-- K )  (talk) 09:43, 8 October 2006 (EDT)

In my opinion, the Stormpikes are the Invaders. The Frostwolf have been staying there since the First War. No one disturbed them throughout the course of Warcraft and Warcraft II. We can safely say the area is Frostwolf Territory. The Frostwolf clan is a neutral Orcish clan. They have never fought the Alliance until Thrall decided to free the Horde from Internment camps before fleeing to Kalimdor. Drek-Tar and gang decided to go HOME after founding Durotar. When they got home, it was peaceful again. The Mr Smart Ass Shorty Stormpike here decided the area has Titan artifact. This sound totally like The Whites Killing Red Indians for hidden "gold" in Pocahontas... --Invin Dranoel 10:02, 8 October 2006 (EDT)
 * In my oppinion, you are a r-tard. Once again, THE FROSTWOLF CLAN IS ATTACKING THE STORMPIKE EXPEDITION. IT EVEN SAYS SO ON THE OFFICIAL SITE. END. OF. STORY. PERIOD.-Bubblehearthlol

They say one has already lost an argument when he resorts to petty insults. Anyway try looking at both sides of the conflict moron. Life isn't black and white,you should learn that. Angry ogre

Let me remind everyone that the Frostwolves first came to the Eastern Kingdoms (Alliance territory) from Draenor (Orc territory) and decided to live there, in Alterac Valley (Which, by the way was property of the humans of Alterac).(Think about it... Say for example that aliens came to Earth, invaded Hawaii and decided to set up residence there. The USA would almost certainly send in troops to take it back. Would you say that the American troops are the intruders or the aliens?). --TM41 20:32, 28 November 2006 (EST)

Alterac valley was hidden and didn't belong to anyone. The nation of Alterac doesn't even exist anymore,It was disbanded by the Alliance due to their treachery. A better example would be if the aliens settled on an island near Hawaii or a part of Hawaii nobody knew about it. Angry ogre 00:44, 5 December 2006 (EST)


 * I think the Alterac Valley war is more like a culture war than a usual "Good vs Bad" war. The Stormpikes just want to do some excavation to discover their ancient heritage, something which the Frostwolves considered offensive. Flaktrooper 09:45, 25 December 2006 (EST)

It would seem that Stormpike clan have lived in Alterac Mountains for a very long time according to Alliance Player's Guide, even before the Frost Wolves moved in. There is implication that they are trying to take back the valley, and recollect land they had lost in the past. On flipside it appears frostwolves have attacked other settlements outside of Alterac Valley to try to expand their lands beyond the valley, which have also drawn the stormpike to the valley in defense. I've also mentioned it before elsewhere, but Valimar Mordis barondom was also located somewhere in Alterac Mountains according to the Manga, and there were dwarves living in his lands as well.Baggins 20:04, 24 December 2006 (EST)


 * Baggins, where did you get these ridiculous ideas from. The Frostwolf Clan have never made any attempts to attack other parts of the valley, they have just tried to make an honest way of living. The Stormpike Clan is more or less and archeological clan of dwarves who want to search for ancient relics. No trace of the clan has ever actually lived in Alterac Valley, and the Frostwolves were EXILED there, they did not invade. The Frostwolves made no attempt to attack the Alliance during the First and Second Wars, and only briefly fought them to free the internment camps. I'm not demonizing the Stormpikes, I'm just saying that the Alliance Player's Guide is filled with propaganda designed to made everything the Alliance does seem noble, even the things that quite obviously aren't. The Frostwolves have lived here peacefully, the dwarves are merely looking for ancient relics, and their actions have offended the orcs of Frostwolf. You shouldn't just get your lore from the Alliance Player's Guide, an RPG written an insanely biased, uninformed, and irresponsible narrorator. Almost every other lore source, including WoW itself implies that the Frostwolves live there peacefully as their home, and that the dwarves shattered this peace when they started their archielogical digs. Neither side is evil, both sides have respectable goals. I personally side with the Frostwolves, because they are merely protecting their lands, but all the Stormpike's want to do is look for relics and resources. Misunderstanding's on both sides led to the war. The orcs were offended by the attack, the Alliance saw their response as "cowardly", and declared war because most of the non-Jaina allied members still go by the "orc=bad" standards, and thus came the propaganda that the dwarves lived there for a while, to incite anger in Alliance forces and make it seem like the battle is worth fighting. To be honest, I'm surprised the Night Elves are on the Stormpike's side, because they are doing something not so dissimilar to what the Horde is doing in Ashenvale. Bran Bronzebeard, author of the Alliance Player's Guide, has not been up to date on the recent history of the Horde, only on its Second War status. His work is riddled with errors and inconsistancies, and not to mention his membership of the Alliance explorer's league, and this makes him a biased, unreliable, and irresponsible writer, whose work is not to be taken as the truth, or even resonably accurate. The Frostwolves are defending their homes, the Stormpikes are looking for ancient relics that we haven't even found out existed yet. End of discusssion. Eman91 02:11, 14 April 2008 (UTC)Eman91


 * Eman i'm not even gonna dignify that post with a real response. I suggest you learn a few things about Brann Bronzebeard and the Alliance player's guide before calling it 'propaganda'. Does the book have an Alliance sides perspective? Of course, however the book is hardly propaganda. You've taken a small lean and exaggerated it a hundred times of what it really is, and created your own ludicrous theories about the facts presented in it and are trying to spread your own information as fact. I'm not gonna take the effort of getting into where you are wrong (lets just say you have the wrong impression of Brann), because you apparently have made no effort to actualy study the lore beforehand. 04:09, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I disagree Baggins,there was no word of the stormpike in Lord of the Clans which is a more official source of lore then the Rpg book which always gets things wrong. And the Frostwolves are the most peacefull tribe of orcs, for god sake,quit trying to demonize the orcs and try to see both views. Angry ogre

The problem is all these people are answering based on what faction they play. However, I would say that the truest comment on here was from Flaktrooper, about it being a cultural war not a good vs bad. The dwarves want to excavate the land and find the secrets of their heritage, but the frostwolves think that that will disturb the spirits. This same issue is seen other places in WoW. The tauren starting area comes to mind, where there is a dwarf expedition digging up the land and young tauren have quests to forcibly stop them. All over Azeroth the alliance and horde fight, and its not always black and white. I think this is one of those cases. Beterthanu


 * "in Lord of the Clans which is a more official source of lore then the Rpg book which always gets things wrong."

Hmm, all I can say is "post proof or retract", I can quote more sources where Chris Metzen and Blizzard state that the RPG is at the same level of hiearchy as the novels and the manga. I don't know where you got your opinion, but fan opinions mean nothing, only official quotes from Blizzard themselves, and those people they authorize to speak for them.

Also if anyone has been demonizing anything you have been... I don't make up information I only take what Blizzard releases to me, through their mass-media "lore departments"(to loosely describe it).Baggins 00:41, 2 January 2007 (EST)

Theres ton of mistakes in the rpg first of all theres the numerous inane monsters they made copied from DnD,second of all theres the fact that Half  the stuff they say gets disproven like when  they said there are more high elves then gnomes or saying Trolls and Forsaken get along well. While lord of the Clans was originally a game and Metzen was much more involved in the script then he was in the Rpg books which is written by a bunch of DnD rejects who don't understand why paladins can't detect evil or orcs aren't goblinoids Angry ogre

You continuing to state your opinions, is not valid in respect to official Blizzard statements of the validity of the RPG. Sorry your opinions are not a credible source. Plus most of the things you have stated are entirely incorrect. Sorry that is not proof we are looking for, move along. By the way Metzen is on the staff of every RPG book, so you just called him a DnD reject... That really helps your credibility.Baggins 01:09, 2 January 2007 (EST)


 * It is also a possibility that the sides were frightened by one another and simply toughened defenses. Then a simple dig too far in frostwolf lands or a frostwolf getting herbs to close to Stormpike Territory could have easily been taken as a spy or some aggresive action and simply put have started war between the two. In short, it could have been completely by accident. Now you can keep going and rambling on trying to put a pretty face on Stormpike or Drek'thar, but NOW they're just as violent as the other. You cannot wipe the blood that has already been spilled within the Stormpike/Frostwolf war.
 * Bebuzzu of the Stormpike Guard

Ninja Pulling/Splitting
Does anyone have any info from Blizzard concerning the game legality of this? --Stiverton 14:46, 21 December 2006 (EST) as long as your able to do it you can do it..as logn as you arent using ahy mods you can.

Interesting
Anyone else notice that Vanndar has a very harsh view of the Horde? In the book written by Vanndar he constantly insults and ridicules the Horde and their structures, however in the Horde version of this book (written by Drek'Thar instead) Drek'That compliments Vanndar's military genius while stating vanndar was an enemy at the same time, he even asks the reader of the book to attempt to reason with Vanndar and ask for his negotiation and surrender before attempting to kill the dwarf, in the Alliance book it is implied that Vanndar would like nothing more then to see Drek'Thar's dead body, damn, first the Night Elves can't shut up and listen to reason in Warsong Gulch, now the dwarves can't sut up and listen to reason in Alterac Valley, it's like the Alliance are slowly turning into bad guys. Hordesupporter 20:52, 26 January 2007 (EST)


 * Damn, it's like the Horde has quickly started it all. Drek'thar can't do anything but compliment Vanndar because Vanndar is an exceptional warchief. That, and he's the wisest Far Seer on Azeroth. Vanndar is a Dwarf (and a Stormpike, imo Stormpike rox) and is a bit stubborn; of course the Horde fights well, but Vanndar is tired of being constantly harrassed by the Frostwolves. They'd come to search for sacred Titan artefacts and now they get shot on sight because the Orcs can't just share a wide valley.-- K )  (talk) 21:16, 26 January 2007 (EST)

The Frostwolf desire to protect what they consider sacred, while the Dwarfs are intrested in discovering their roots, both are honorable goals, so neither is truly evil for attacking the other, who is "good" and who is "evil" is simply a point of view, Horde views themselves as good, the Alliance as evil, the Alliance views themselves as good, and the Horde as evil. Hordesupporter 00:21, 27 January 2007 (EST)


 * Where is it said that they consider the valley sacred ?-- K )  (talk) 05:28, 27 January 2007 (EST)


 * Kirochi. Either you are going to behave a bit moer decent and respectful, or you leave the Bookkeepers. I do not see, why you are defending the Stormpikes so blindly. I quote from the official WoW-Europe Website.


 * Long ago, before the First War, the warlock Gul'dan exiled a clan of orcs called the Frostwolves to a hidden valley deep in the heart of the Alterac Mountains. It is here in the valley's southern reaches that the Frostwolves eked out a living until the coming of Thrall.


 * After Thrall's triumphant uniting of the clans, the Frostwolves, now led by the Orc Shaman Drek'Thar, chose to remain in the valley they had for so long called their home. In recent times, however, the relative peace of the Frostwolves has been challenged by the arrival of the Dwarven Stormpike Expedition.


 * Stormpikes have set up residence in the valley to search for natural resources and ancient relics. Despite their intentions, the Dwarven presence has sparked heated conflict with the Frostwolf Orcs to the south, who have vowed to drive the interlopers from their lands.


 * Now, as you can see here, it is obvious that the dwarves have invaded their homelands. Also remember that it is only Jaina who has made a treaty with Thrall, the rest of the Alliance still hates the orcs, like they always have. This makes the point that Hordesupporter brought up very justified.


 * I'll try and go look the Sacred up, as I'm sure it has been noted in several places. From you I expect a bit more respect towards the opinions of others. --Patrigan - Talk - SH (EU) 05:40, 27 January 2007 (EST)


 * I shall NOT take orders from you. Either you just STOP trying to make 'opinions' more respected than 'facts', either you just stop talking to me. You don't have anything to expect from me.
 * To answer you, I'd say this text is utterly NOT stating that the Frostwolves invaded their homelands. It clearly says the simple fact that Dwarves came to the valley, despite their non-aggressive intentions, made the Frostwolves start a heated conflict to drive them away.
 * I am not blindly defending the Stormpikes. I'm showing you what facts tells us and why rumors are dangerous.
 * "I'll try and go look the Sacred up, as I'm sure it has been noted in several places." Really ? NOT. It's plain just a rumor that anti-alliance players have spread everywhere, aiming at a day when everyone will believe it, including you.
 * And I'm not sure where you're leading the polemic when you say that the Horde and the Alliance never had an oath of non-aggression, allowing the Frostwolves to attack the Stormpikes on sight. Well, at least you're fessing up with the fact that the Frostwolves have no reason to attack the Stormpikes : they're racist and they kill Dwarves when they see some. The Horde won't mind.-- K )  (talk) 12:31, 27 January 2007 (EST)


 * This is ridiculous. That a person like you is even allowed to be a bookkeeper. You are completely biased and you just again prove the fact that you have totally no clue what you are talking about. I do not even get what you mean with that oath of non-agression. As stated by Thrall himself and don't make me shove it right under your nose. Hordes are allowed to attack when threatened. This is obviously a case of being under threat, seeing how Vanndar Stormspike is. Simply the fact that you call the horde racists, it shows how biased you are. Go read the instruction manuals of AV first, before stating anything along those lines. The Frostwolves have done nothing, but do as Thrall allowed. They ARE threatened, seeing that Vanndar is an Orc-hater, much like Daelin was. Don't believe that? Then don't reply here, because this is obviously a case where YOU have it wrong. I have been searching for the "Sacred", but I admit I couldn't find it. I need to go look ingame again. However, keep in mind, Durotan, father of the warchief, is burried in the Valley (hence Rock of Durotan) Simply the fact that Orc burrying places are Sacred ground, makes the Valley Sacred already. If you do not approve of this stance, simply because Blizzard hasn't said it (which isn't even sure) Then you need to get a study in Logic. It doesn't matter what a paper says to you. The fact stands, Stormpike invades, Frostwolf is threatened, especially considering the hateful oppinion from Vanndar. There is no racist at Frostwolf side, but there is at Stormpike side. Stormpike come to dig, Durotan is burried in those grounds, Stormpike wish to dig in. Enough reason for a normal person to destroy the invaders. This is not merely a fact of what's written down, Blizzard attempted to make everything realistic, this is an obvious taste of realism. You need to learn what lore is and what it holds. Its not just that which is written down, it also passes between the lines. If you do not udnerstand that, then you're not worthy of editing here, leave alone worthy the title of Bookkeeper. Now /shoo, from under my eyes with your offensive behaviour. --Patrigan - Talk - SH (EU) 10:52, 28 January 2007 (EST)

To be perfectly honest, the war is not the fault of a single side. The dwarves did not come to take over the valley, just to explore and make use of it. At the same time, however, they were insensitive to the Frostwolve's culture, who (rightly, in their eyes) took umbrage at this incursion and retaliated. Thus the war began. No side had the intention of going to war, but ignorance and miscommunication made it happen. In a perfect world, the Frostwolves would be less territorial, and the dwarves more conciencious of their actions. I don't like the use of absolute words such as 'invaded' as it has connotations that aren't neccessarily accurate. Now for my admin comment - all of you, calm down. This is not the real world, and there is no need to get so worked up about minor issues. I expect better. 11:07, 28 January 2007 (EST)


 * Damn you Kirkburn, how can a neutral point of view be so right :-(. But a war is not always the fault of both sides. We have had examples of true and absolute evil in History, I'll let you guess which. I'll answer one last thing to this person that insulted me and said I didn't deserve to be a Bookkeeper.
 * I am the Majordomo Bookkeeper. I did not make a request for it, Ragestorm simply made this decision, and as of now I haven't used my powers even once, let alone abused them. I have stayed many months on WoWwiki, slowly earning experience and knowledge of Warcraft lore. I met many WoWwikians, I tried to get along with them the best I could. And you, the most arrogant and biased user, dare insult me ? 'The Frostwolves are not racist, the Stormpike are'<== DING! Biased m*r*n spotted. Blizzard is NOT putting any realism in World of Warcraft. This is a popular idea in most silly minds, as I can see everywhere around me. Our society has a rotten way of life, caring more about tracking racism and humiliating/killing those suspected (with proofs or not) of racism. 'Yeaaaah these are their sacred lands because Durotan was buried here' : Durotan was buried here? Whatever, the cult of a personality has always made dictatures feel stronger, whereas sacred things are gladly violated and destroyed. Don't you know that the Titans, the Dwarves' Gods, have buried ancient artefacts here? Do you want to know why you can't find 'sacred land' for the Frostwolves anywhere? It's because it just isn't sacred.
 * Last but not least, if you can tell how I deserve or not being a Bookkeeper, then why aren't you one of us? You have a 'level 60 lock on Shattered Hand EU'? Gfu. If it's the only thing you can display as a WoWwiki title, then don't come and pretend to demote me.
 * Ragestorm, please please please come here. You're better than me in Bookkeeping & AMA-stuff, only you can prevent article fires.-- K )  (talk) 12:19, 28 January 2007 (EST)

Enough. From now on, I expect people to stay on topic, and take your personal grievances elsewhere. This isn't the place. 12:52, 28 January 2007 (EST)

Damn, I didn't come here to start an argument, I was simply pointing out something I found intresting. Hordesupporter 23:09, 29 January 2007 (EST)

Apologies for acting so mad and perhaps even close to immature, however, Kiroshi, your point of view is too biased on this. As a bookkeeper you should be completely neutral. Hence why I don't even would want to be a bookkeeper. If people read your stuff and they see you are a bookkeeper, they will think you are so completely right. Hordesupporter pointed out the simple fact that Vanndar is much more agressive in his text than Drek'thar is. This points out that Vanndar is much more of a racist, while Drek'thar is a blind (pun intended) pup fighting for survival. Do not forget, Durotan is buried there aswell, I don't want to be in the foots of Vanndar if he manages to dig on the place where the body is buried. If I would come to the cemetary in your backyard, where your grandparents are buried. I sy there are some epics to be found in the ground. You would be rather pissed right? I would feel offended, because I'm not allowed to do what I want. Knowing the dwarves' temper, Vanndar got pissed and started hating the horde. Their intentions were good, but in the course of the war things don't stay the same.

I expect you to come up here again and yell "Blizzard never said that!" Sometimes, it doesn't have to be said. Common sense tells you more than anything else, even if it isn't written on paper. Once again, apologies of my behaviour. I just got dragged into your offensive reply on what Hordesupporter said. --Patrigan - Talk - SH (EU) 06:14, 30 January 2007 (EST)

Edit: Wanted to add something quickly: I have a lvl 60lock on SH EU yes, also a lvl 40 Druid on the alliance side of SH. Does that make me in any way less than you Kiroshi? Am I suddenly a lesser being? I will only give in to an admin, never will I give in to a "Bookkeeper". You can be as wrong as any other. --Patrigan - Talk - SH (EU) 06:20, 30 January 2007 (EST)


 * I said end it and I meant it. You may continue discussing the article civilly. 08:43, 30 January 2007 (EST)


 * Talk:Vanndar Stormpike/Analysis-- K )  (talk) 12:44, 30 January 2007 (EST)

While my name is Hordesupporter, and I favor the Horde in these arguments, I am at the same time, not baised, I remain rational and look at everyside of the argument, to put it simple, the Frostwolf Clan, along with the Horde, believe they should protect the valley from the Stormpike, and the Alliance, the Stormpike and the Alliance however, believe they own the valley. (which is inaccurate, considering how long the Frostwolf have been in the valley without getting disturbed) nonw of thw BGs have a definite "good guys" or a definite "bad guys", since everyone views themselves as the good guys, however in Alterac Valley it would seem the Horde has the nobler goal, so I tend to view them as the good in alterac valley, and the alliance as the bad in alterac valley. Hordesupporter 13:32, 30 January 2007 (EST)


 * I agree. The Horde seems to have the more nobler goal here in this battleground, protecting what they believe to be their home. The Stormpikes intentions were not bad, but they were a bit disrespectful to Frostwolf culture. And Vandarr does seem to be quite racist, refering to the Horde as "heathens" constatnly. (Though Drek'Thar does refer to the Alliance as "filth" and "cowards", but that's hardly as offensive as "heathens"). In the other battlegrounds, it seems much more neutral. In WSG, the Horde just wants to harvest the Ashenvale Forest trees for their structures and possibly later expansions and expeditions. The Silverwings, klike the Frostwolves, view the forests as sacred and attacked them to defend it. The Warsongs see the lumber camps as rightfully theres, the Silverwings see the lumber camps as disrepectful and wastefull. In Eye of the Storm, both sides seem interested in utilizing the resources there in the fight for Outland against Kael'Thas, Illidan, and the Burning Legion. Both sides have fairly noble goals, the war here is more a matter of gaining the favor of Shattrath and Outland's fighters than anything else. In Arathi Basin, the Alliance has a much more noble goal, trying to get their nation back. The Defilers seek only to serve themselves and the Forsaken, and want to wipe the humans off the map. They dont really care about any of their non-Forsaken allies, they just employ them for war effort. Eman91 16:28, 23 February 2008 (PST)

Immune to Nature damage?
He is most assuredly not, I have Earth Shocked this guy I don't know how many times, and it does damage. He's not immune to Nature spells.Kraas 10:20, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

Character Class
Due to his ability and role, maybe he is a Mountain King? --N&#39;Nanz 10:12, 22 April 2008 (UTC)


 * He is only a mountain king if an official source says he is one. Otherwise speculation of that type must be left out.Baggins 07:53, 5 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Not only that but he is merely called 'General of the Stormpike Guard'. He rules over a army, not a entire race of dwarves.
 * Bebuzzu of the Stormpike Guard

Mountain kings aren't rulers over a race of dwarves. Its an honorable title, enterchangable with thane. He uses the abilites of mountain kings, he's about as high ranking as most mountain kings. Granted there isn't any actual confirmation, but what else is he going to be? All the bosses in av are bassed off of hero classes, Drek's a farseer, Galv's a blademaster, Balinda's an archmage, and Van's a mountain king. Makes sense.Tweak the Whacked (talk) 03:24, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed. He has Avatar, the mountain kings ultimate ability, stormbolt, one of the mountain kings most famous attacks, and thunder clap anthor one of the mountain kings abilitys. He's only missing bash, but thats only a stun ability. i think his class should be changed as it does not say he is a warrior at all. He's more mountain king then a warrior.--Whitedragon254 (talk) 03:03, 19 July 2008 (UTC)