Talk:Mutilate vs Backstab

Unrealistic spec
Ok, correct me if I'm wrong, but if I read that information correctly, we're calculating Mutilate damage with DW spec and Opportunity, that means we're using a 41/20/5 build... that's 66 talent points and requires level 75.

I don't see anywhere in these calculations that take the talent "improved backstab" (75% crit chance)?? Does that alter the numbers at all? I would expect more damage output with backstab but less combo points. Which is why my build is mutilate with imp SnD...build combo points rapidly and use them wisely.

Improved Backstab increases your chance to crit with backstabs by 30%, and in the backstab sample it is added in on top of the rogue's 25% base crit, for a total of 55%. This is then calculated over 100 attacks, assuming 55 are critical hits and 45 are normal hits. --Ghman

Updating the outdatedness
This article is now completely outdated, I would say. If it were to be updated, I would suggest first using totally different specs for the Backstab rogue and the Mutilate rogue. After all, Backstab rogues are much more apt to be Combat, not Assassination (in my experience). You could, for example, use this for your Mutilate spec (or something more like this) and this for the Backstab spec. (The latter I know has been used to great effect in raids by a former guildmate of mine.)

Also, the assumption that the target is always poisoned may not quite be a fair or logical assumption. How you would get around this I don't know, but a preparatory application of Shiv might be one way. Yes, this will lower the DPS and combo points of the Mutilate user, but if that's more realistic, so be it. Better to err on the conservative side with these things, IMO. Next, I would suggest using realistic level 70 rogue gear. For example, something like the Assassination set (and similar items such as the Boots of the Shifting Sands) and weapons like the Whispering Blade of Slaying and Warp Splinter's Thorn. Gear a rogue could relatively easily get at level 70 without an enormous amount of work.

The results of that would be much more interesting than what you have here. Which, to be honest, seems biased toward a level 60 rogue PvPing before BC came out. For whatever that's worth now. RobertM525 08:40, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Useful Links
There are some links we could refer to here that allow people to see the damage rather than be crit by a wall of text (if you excuse the pun). Such websites are:
 * http://www.worldofming.com/calc/mutistab.php
 * http://blog.codesleuth.co.uk/?page_id=34

If anyone agrees with me, please add these to the page. --Sleuth 08:35, 20 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree that some type of calculator would be great here, but both of the calculators linked above are quite off. That being said, the calculator from Ming's website uses values (and ranks) from the BC Beta I believe. And the second calculator seems to take weapon speed into account when calculating Backstab/Mutilate damage, meaning its not even normalized.  I can't see the math on the second calculator either, but it seems to be off by too much on the Backstab calculations and off by too little on the Mutilate calculations.
 * Considering the above problems, I'm not sure either of those two would be great to add. However, if someone were to find a good calculator that compares both abilities, that would be a great addition to the page. -Undread 05:00, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Tw34k, I'm not sure what your latest edit is referring to, you said the page contains mutilate bias, because the build contains DW spec? But the build is assuming 0 dual wield spec and 5/5 opp. So I'm going to go ahead and take that out, and make a correction to my math that I just noticed. If you want to clarify what you mean, let me know and we'll try and figure it out. -Undread 15:08, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

There's no consideration of combat potency (regen energy with offhand attack) in the backstab calculations. From my own calculations backstab does higher physical damage at all AP and crit% lvls than mutilate. The only reason mutilate wins is because of envenom doing much more damage than eviscerate.

--Ice mountain 11:40, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Point of the Article
I would like you to remember that I wrote this article before the release of BC. The original calculations and simulations were done shortly after the 41-pt talents were patched in, in December 2006 and were based on level 60 characters. That of course means that the character only had access to 51 talent points. The article was rewritten by someone who just changed the items/stats but did not consider all the side effects that 61 talent points had on this whole Mut vs Backstab - Theme.

During early lvl 70 raid progression my guild ran Naxx several times to be able to compare dps-specs on Patchwerk. It turned out that with Gruul-based gear the dps of combat-dagger (combat potency) and pve-mutilate is pretty much the same. However combat is the more reliable pve-dps spec and it profits much more from +haste items. That's also exactly the problem with white calculations for mut vs backstab. Comparing those two specs requires a thick amount of simulation and massive calculations to consider all those haste procs, ap-procs, combat potency ticks, slice&dice effects, etc...

Remember this was originally an article about "Mutilate vs Backstab" not "Mutilate-Spec vs Backstab-Combat-Spec in a PvE-Environment". -- FallingDown 03:29, 10 October 2007 (UTC)