Wowpedia talk:Village pump/Archive21

User friendliness
How can WoWWiki become more (new) user friendly? I'm talking about stuff like:


 * Template changes
 * MediaWiki text changes (e.g. the green talk page banner when editing)
 * Main Page pointers
 * Better/simpler guides for new users

Any suggestions are very useful :) 15:09, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * More extensive/comprehensive Help: namespace? Just a thought. --Pcj (T&bull;C) 15:59, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, our help pages need some work. There are a lot of things we use that are hard to find out about in help. We need to document stuff in help, not here in the Village pump... ;-) --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 11:30 AM PDT 30 Oct 2007


 * Hehe :P Generally linking directly to wikipedia's specific help pages should work (for non-wowwiki specific stuff), as they are far more comprehensive than ours; however, what we do have needs better organising. 19:02, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Uniformity in tables and templates, too. I don't know how many times I've seen several different templates used for the same purpose. --Pcj (T&bull;C) 21:56, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Clear page layout and headers so the user can see what recogize what type of article/namespace he/she is looking at and instantly knwos where to look for the information they need. Implement via better templates/boilerplates.
 * Fix all issues with the wide aray of competeing and inconsistant top and section level template "boxes" and other headers while doing the above (this includes the ToC).
 * Remove superfluous and ugly nav boxes and provide navigation through categories with relationship defined naming.
 * Move all listing/type articles to where the belong, the category namespace, with redirects when appropriate.
 * Add portal articles with respective namespace based on user information access patterns.
 * Clean up existing policy articles and refine the rules for the policy process policy.
 * New semantically correct main page that reflects these changes.
 * I Think that's enough stuff that'll never be done. ;) --  http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_zeal.png|User:Zeal  http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_talk.png|User talk:Zeal  http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_contribs.png|Special:Contributions/Zeal  http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_end.png|User:Zeal  19:27, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Well number three isn't happening, except for category renaming. Listing articles do not belong in the category namespace, because they aren't categories. Portals would be cool. How are the article message boxes inconsistent? They were all changed to be consistent. Policy articles have had some work (thanks to Sky), but yes, probably could have more done. 19:48, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * A listing/grouping of types of things isn't a category? Sure whatever you say. ;p
 * There are still a few i've noticed that do not match the nice new ones you've made Kirkburn. They're also all competing for the same spot (along with tooltips, info boxes, tocs etc.), looks ugly and is inconsistant in how that get's resolved.. A number of them should also be split to section specific versions instead, a change i tried to champion before i left.
 * As to policies, i meant easier to find, with clearer applicable naming, organization of them collectively, then also making being easier to understand and flow well, especially where cross over occurs between them. --  http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_zeal.png|User:Zeal  http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_talk.png|User talk:Zeal  http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_contribs.png|Special:Contributions/Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_end.png|User:Zeal </li></ul> 19:57, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, an article that lists something is not a category. A category is a specific thing for MediaWikis, and it isn't designed for carrying content - for one, they don't get flagged as articles. Redirects are also to be avoided.
 * Article message boxes are supposed to be above all other content, and thus not conflict with anything on either side. I know there's a few things still left over, especially the band-color templates, unfortunately.
 * Sky was asking about the names of the policy pages recently - it's a fair comment. 20:09, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't like MediaWiki to dictate logic, rather work around it's failings, but if you want to stick to it's limitations, so be it. -- <li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_zeal.png|User:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_talk.png|User talk:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_contribs.png|Special:Contributions/Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_end.png|User:Zeal </li></ul> 20:24, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Neither do I, but I think it would be more confusing without a recode, especially since the categories do not necessarily cover the same things as the lists. 20:55, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Steering us a bit more back on topic, let's look at Zeal's list a bit (I did a little bit of editing):
 * Clear page layout and headers so the user can see what recogize what type of article/namespace he/she is looking at and instantly knows where to look for the information they need. Implement via better templates/boilerplates. -Zeal
 * This sounds to me like we need new headers. Right now the user has to look at the tooltip or right side box to know what they're looking at.
 * We should also maybe put the stubs on a diet. They are consistent, but rather large and blaring. They overwhelm much informative content.
 * Make a list of bad templates/boilerplates and we'll discuss improving them on each of their pages and the list can have a summary status of how that's going.
 * Fix all issues with the wide array of competing and inconsistent top and section level template "boxes" and other headers while doing the above (this includes the ToC). -Zeal
 * Again, make a list of problem top and section boxes. We'll use the same review strategy as mentioned above.
 * Remove superfluous and ugly nav boxes and provide navigation through categories with relationship defined naming. -Zeal
 * Again, make a list of "superfluous and ugly" nav boxes. We'll use the same review strategy as mentioned above.
 * I'm not sure about using categories, though, as discussed above. Nav boxes exist to get around the limitations of categories.
 * Move all listing/type articles to where they belong, the category namespace, with redirects when appropriate. -Zeal
 * Yup, we need to aggregate listing/type articles, but maybe not the category namespace, as Kirkburn mentions above.
 * Once we think of how/where to aggregate them, it should be easy.
 * Add portal articles with respective namespace based on user information access patterns. -Zeal
 * Good idea, but I'm not sure how we will discover user information access patterns. Maybe Kirkburn knows or can find some better information gathering from the wiki.
 * Clean up existing policy articles and refine the rules for the policy process policy. -Zeal
 * I'll let Sky and others work on that. I don't want us to get too overloaded with policy and process though.
 * Some things we need to resolve in this area, though:
 * Fanfic, as has been discussed.
 * When to use subcategories vs. main categories.
 * What bots should and shouldn't do and how articles they interact with should be tagged.
 * More writing policy on things like ability pages, server pages, and user pages.
 * Maybe some more naming policy.
 * Maybe we should put a policy portal link on the sidebar. It could take the place of Search WoWWiki and that link could move down to "wiki search", since it is basically the same thing and not currently a link.
 * New semantically correct main page that reflects these changes. -Zeal
 * I'll admit I don't know what this means. So a more detailed explanation would help.
 * Some other ideas I had:
 * Get the Special:Search to show simpler output options:
 * List of articles only that have text matches without contents matching summaries below.
 * List of articles with text matches to article names only.
 * List of articles with text matches to contents only.
 * Move Google search down a slot unless we get paid more for it being higher. The wiki search works pretty well now and it's results aren't based on some past scan (or shouldn't be).
 * To reiterate, we really need a comprehensive redo of our help pages. They really are a mess.
 * Make the rework part of the new projects process and do a much better job of promoting and organizing the projects. Repeatedly promoting the projects in the Village pump might be good if it doesn't get to annoying.
 * Archive Village pump and Warcraft pump more often. Don't archive questions that haven't been answered.
 * Okay I'll stop now. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 12:11 PM PST 2 Dec 2007
 * Okay I'll stop now. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 12:11 PM PST 2 Dec 2007


 * What i meant with my last point about the main page, was that it should should reflect the following:
 * Portals becoming main access points for users, which means removal of the existing list of article links at the top of the page.
 * Top level categories listed to provide navigation entry points seperate from the more busy and limited scope portals.
 * A shift to ensuring sementically correct markup thoughout the wiki. Specifically that means no more tables, make use of list elements and create a float based layout for good degradation for all resolutions.
 * The design would also use a consistant scheme for it's varies areas (icons, colours, content styling) so they carry across to each namespace/article type and don't make the user feel they've ever stumbled off their intended path. This would ofc mean a greater tie in and consistancy with template design. (I haven't touched it in a while now, and have no idea how much it reflects to this anymore, butUser:Zeal/Sandbox/Main_Page was a pretty basic attempt at this.
 * -- <li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_zeal.png|User:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_talk.png|User talk:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_contribs.png|Special:Contributions/Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_end.png|User:Zeal </li></ul> 23:02, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Clear page layout... Hmm?
 * ...and headers so the user can see what recogize what type of article/namespace he/she is looking at... Headers? As in, those items which I've seen on your sandbox pages, or actual == headers? If the former, that's only adding unneccessary styling and complication to the wiki. We already have the pagename in big fat letters at the top, so this shouldn't be an issue.
 * ...and instantly knwos where to look for the information they need. Implement via better templates/boilerplates. This is an issue of having a lot of pages on the wiki. We've been moving toward standardizing pages through the use of boilerplates, but if people aren't going to aid in boilerplating, we can't do much. I must say, mass templating won't really help either, but then, there have been efforts in this also. --Sky (talk | con | wh ) 00:03, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Fix all issues with the wide aray of competeing and inconsistant top and section level template "boxes" and other headers while doing the above (this includes the ToC). Me too. I would presume you're talking about boss and instance pages more than anything. Inconsistency, I can live with, more because the items can be used to identify what kind of page one is looking at. But when there's more than one box at the top of a page, that just doesn't work. As for the ToC, we've been moving away from the use of tocright (which, imo, is the main culprit) when the page already has at least one box on the right, but there are lingering pages that need it removed. Though, I would request clarification on that statement, incase I misinterpreted. --Sky (talk | con | wh ) 00:08, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Fanfic, as has been discussed. Discussing. ;) [The help pages] really are a mess. You mean, a non-existant mess? ;P. Maybe some more naming policy. Specify. Move Google search down. Agreed.
 * When to use subcategories vs. main categories. Subcategories are always preferred over main categories, as subcats link to the main categories anyway; what exactly are you referencing?
 * What bots should and shouldn't do and how articles they interact with should be tagged. Foxbot = love (well, sorta. I have my issues with it, but they can't be fixed). Laurlybot = hate. The subpages, are, quite frankly, unneeded, as the pages will be re-updated by bot again; Laurly's said it's possible to code for the bot to change the main page parts that need changing as opposed to the subpage, and overwriting the tables is going to happen anyway, whether manually or automatically, so why aren't we having Laurlybot just doing main pages? I'd like to link to WP:ITEMS, as that shows that the community would rather have all the informatio on one page than on subpages. I personally don't understand how we went from what's there to what Laurlybot is doing now. The policy doesn't regard npc pages, but it does leave comment on how we should be dealing with mainpages.
 * More writing policy on things like ability pages, server pages, and user pages. I don't know that ability pages need policy, as we have a boilerplate. But there probably should be something on server pages. As for user pages, anything goes. The only thing which is explicitly disallowed on user pages is WP:DNP.
 * Maybe we should put a policy portal link on the sidebar. I agree with the thought. Policy should be linked prominently (somewhere) if it isn't already.
 * Get the Special:Search to show simpler output options. That might be an inhibition of the engine, though good ideas.
 * Make the rework part of the new projects process and do a much better job of promoting and organizing the projects. Sure, but if you haven't noticed, the people who contribute... contribute. And then there are the people who don't. So the issue here is general community involvement, rather than telling people that already know about the projects again to participate.
 * Archive Village pump and Warcraft pump more often. Hmm... I'd disagree. But not a biggy. --Sky (talk | con | wh ) 00:21, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Zeal, tables are the semantically correct method for showing data. 00:31, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Repeat what i said in IRC. Tabular data, certainly. Lists, layout, non-tabular data, headers, messages, certainly not! And they all exist on the wiki in various forms.


 * Sky, your replies are painfully hard to read, don't know what is and isn't a quote and what parts were directed to me :S But i'll see if i can comprehend it.
 * Yes, the former. Wouldn't have to be the same as i preposed before, but that's the general idea. It's not unneccessary styling (hell it originally came about to fix a big flaw in the monobook skin which still exists both here and on wikipedia) and they're not complicated, in fact they simplify and solve the problems with all the complicated variations of headers which current exist and get placed before the content.
 * The reason there is no standardized pages is sadly because there is no standards across the boilerplates themselves, they all vary too much and the onyl thing consistant between them is that they look bare and like any other article (as you said, only item pages are currently recognizable because tooltip and it's location on the page).
 * You interpreted it fine. I actually hate the ToC period because you have no styling or formatting control over it and it really just gets creates problems rather than being helpful to navigating the article. Only solutions i can think to have the helpfulness of a ToC without the issues it causes is if the toc was a navigation drop down or it was located outside the article's bounds (above it horizontally or in sidebar vertically) It's more a failing of the mediawiki base of how the page is layed out (article and user links, side bar, content, footer). It's a bit of a mess.
 * Think that's the end of my points :S -- <li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_zeal.png|User:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_talk.png|User talk:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_contribs.png|Special:Contributions/Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_end.png|User:Zeal </li></ul> 01:13, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * My 2cp:
 * Help Articles and Policies: (I'm bunching these because I consider them integral to each other) This is something I'm willing to work on after I move.
 * I think we need to reinvigorate the Help Team, though. It appears that no one is left from it to do the work and maintenance that should be done.  I'm not volunteering for this, however, as I'm not sure I'll have the time.  If I do, you'll be sure to hear from me. :P
 * More to come! I can't process this craziness all at the same time!
 * --<span style="font-size: 0.85em; font-family: arial, 'comic sans'; padding: .2em .3em; border: 1px #504c50 solid;background-color: #000000"> DuTempete  talk  |  contr  02:25, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Sandbox should be linked in the navi bar for the convenience of newbies. -SpoiltCheese 04:57, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Loot links
Sometimes it can get a little hard to get the desired result, which means a lot of work for a little return. For example, let's say I want to show something simple like Sweet Nectar with an icon to boot. At the moment, to get it to display Sweet Nectar, we need &#091;&#091;Image:INV_Drink_12.png|20px|Sweet Nectar&#093;&#093; &#123;&#123;loot|Common|Sweet Nectar&#125;&#125; which involves a little research since we need to know (a) the icon image and (b) it's rarity status (ok, common's easy but it could've been poor, uncommon etc). Now, to me, an easier way to do this would be to have &#123;&#123;Sweet Nectar&#125;&#125; - much easier to remember and implement. Start small and all that. 20:15, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


 * That idea isn't very practical. currently renders the tooltip. --Pcj (T&bull;C) 20:21, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Not to mention the fact that items are not supposed to be linked with an icon like that, as was decided when i was writing loot. What you're after is a loot table/vendor display type template, which i had been writing before i left but never finished. It seems that's the same direction item is going in, though poorly imo. The reason why mine never went anywhere, and why no future version will take off? Because everyone other than me (seemingly at the time) thought in such cases, the tooltip should be included instead (though this was prior to adding mouse over tooltips to negate that). Hence why no such linking template as you've described exists. -- <li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_zeal.png|User:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_talk.png|User talk:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_contribs.png|Special:Contributions/Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_end.png|User:Zeal </li></ul> 21:41, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The way item pages currently work doesn't allow you to get anything other than the full tooltip out of them, hence et. al. requiring you to pass on additional information which should already be discoverable once you provide the item name. This can (and probably should) be rectified in the future, but, for now, you'll have the choice of either using loot or arcane image syntax.  -- Starlightblunder 00:31, 22 December 2007 (UTC)


 * As a follow up, check out item (name pending) for easy icon embedding: Lieutenant Commander's Crown. --Starlightblunder 02:21, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Perfect, that's exactly what I'm looking for.   generates exactly what I was looking for, Sweet Nectar, without the need to research the colour or icon.  More like this would be great.  I may tend to use this one instead of loot, as with loot one has to get the quality to get   gets me  whereas item   doesn't need the entry quality to get the same result .   Sanderdolphin 20:44, 7 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Just don't go overboard with it, because the way in which it works, it can very easily break the page you're using it on the more of them you add.-- <li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_zeal.png|User:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_talk.png|User talk:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_contribs.png|Special:Contributions/Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_end.png|User:Zeal </li></ul> 00:52, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Search Engine
Just a question to satiate my curiosity- Why is it that when I create a new page, it cannot be found using the Google search engine? For example, I recently created Gharsul the Remorseless, but when I use the search engine, there are no results for that exact query. Is there a large waiting period or something? I find it odd that when I create a page to try and aid players and users, there is no easy way for them to come across this page and to benefit from it. Maybe I've missed some nifty trick- After all, I'm very new to wiki sites. Any response would be splendid. Kallnohae 15:58, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The Google search engine doesn't update immediately when pages are updated. Google has to crawl the site before those pages show. The built-in search engine does update immediately, however. --Pcj (T&bull;C) 16:05, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The built-in search, of course, can be found at Special:Search or by clicking "Search WoWWiki" in the navigation sidebar. 18:57, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Just wondering...Is there an estimated amount of time it takes for the google search to be able to find it? Coobra 21:21, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Realm Boilerplate
I am considering getting to work on a Realm (Server) boilerplate so that the Realm pages can start to look somewhat alike, or at least have vague similarities. If there is anyone who wishes to criticize, aid in or speculate upon this idea, please let me know :) -- Kasyx 15:24, 19 November 2007 (UTC)


 * After looking into it a bit, I have come to the startling conclusion that I have absolutely no idea where to even start in terms of creating a new boilerplate. Anyone with the experience/knowledge to give me some pointers or help me out with it would be much appreciated ;) -- Kasyx 12:41, 20 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, we seem to have adopted the slightly inaccurate <tt>Server:</tt> namespace instead of <tt>Realm:</tt>.
 * Well, you could review Help:Starting a new page and Wowpedia:Boilerplates to see how other boilerplates are done. I sort of like the format of having something like a Help:Server articles page (like Help:Mob articles) that gives instructions to use a Help:Server articles/Preload page (which contains the actual server boilerplate).
 * You should also look at the various server-related templates also and maybe use them in your boilerplate: Realm, Server Nav, Server, Server EU, Server US, Battlegroup, guild list templates (Guild list ally, Guild list horde, Guild list, Guild list foot)
 * Hopefully that's enough info to get you started. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 2:20 PM PST 23 Nov 2007


 * Realm pages differ greatly sometimes. How many parts of a community you are not a part of are you going to cut?-- 22:28, 23 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I do not intend for this to be the be-all and end-all of Realm articles, but rather merely a guideline so that the base information on the realm is there. Thereafter, people can add to it as they see fit. Making a boilerplate for realm articles doesn't impose boundaries on realm articles, but rather gives them a solid foundation. -- Kasyx 23:24, 23 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Exactly. Kasyx, if you feel nervous about throwing up a new page, you can always start with Help:Server articles/Preload and make Help:Server articles later when you think its ready for prime time. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 3:28 PM PST 23 Nov 2007

The two largest sections of most realm articles seem to be guild progression and rare craftables. Creating a standard layout for those would be a good place to start. We should probably discuss making those two subpages as some articles become overly long. -- 16:15, 10 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Tyrsenus, please continue your comments on the latest section of the Village pump. I moved the one above to there already. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 11:48 AM PST 10 Jan 2008

Fanfic namespace
I do believe we need a namespace for fan fiction, especially given the talk on Talk:Great Sea expansion pack ideas, and I can request it fairly simply.

However, do others agree, and if so, what should it be called? 01:06, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Fanfic:
 * Fiction:
 * Fan Fiction:


 * One of those?-- 01:07, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Sounds good, but there should be still some sort of content filter. --Pcj (T&bull;C) 01:12, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * If Pcj agrees to this it must be good. Filter out what?-- 01:13, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I vote for Fanfic or Fiction, keep it one word. What sort of filter did you have in mind? Addendum: We also need to change the name of that particular page- it's not so much an idea page for Great Sea expansions as it is one specific idea.-- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 01:21, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Just some sort of ground rules about what's acceptable. I don't particularly want to see WoWWiki to become a repository of any old slash fiction or otherwise low-quality work, however Warcraft-related it may be. And, of course, general parameters of what exactly constitutes fan fiction. --Pcj (T&bull;C) 01:25, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Indeed, pcj. I certainly wouldn't want this to mean "anything goes". 01:30, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * For that Addendum, I list all independant great sea ideas that are not here, here if it helps. I do not know if that was on topic... -- 01:43, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I have to ask, what's wrong with the current placement of fanfic, under a User sub page? :| Most of the fanfiction out there is already located under a User subpage; there are only a handful of articles which are not in such places. --Sky (talk | con | wh ) 04:15, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * WP:PA only permits one main contributor of fanfic not in the main namespace, this would move all the stuff in the main namespace, like the "...ideas" articles into their own namespace. --Pcj (T&bull;C) 04:22, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

It also states that those who wish to surrender control of their works to the wiki can leave it in the main namespace, which is how it is done currently. PA supports both sides in this way. :) --Sky (talk | con | wh ) 04:54, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * A separate namespace then helps to distinguish factual articles from fiction. --Pcj (T&bull;C) 05:01, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * And so does the tag currently placed at the top of such fiction pages. --Sky (talk | con | wh ) 05:03, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * yes, I agree it sounds like a good idea, as long as we have certain standards.Baggins 05:37, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * As i said in IRC depending on how you you intend to use the namespace, it may need some new rules put in place. How many depends on the usage too.
 * So here's a few things to consider:
 * If you keep fan fiction limited to a single author, then the namespace isn't needed, as it's easier to manage in the userspace alone.
 * If you go ahead with the namespace then the naming policy should prevent people from choosing generic names and actually choose an appropriate title (eg. Fanfic:Pandaren vs Fanfic:A Story About a Pandaren) so that there is no arguments over common Wow terms.
 * If you go with the multiple authors (which to me is the only reason i can see why anyone would want to write a fanfic on WW and the only reason a namespace would be needed), who controls the fanfic? Is it released to the public for anyone to edit as is the standard for a wiki and thus "policing" the articles is done by the wikians (which is going to require awhole new rule set written up)? Or alternatively do you allow the author/authors to retain ownership and control and thus "police" their own articles and can be left to their own devices?
 * I personally don't believe the namespace is needed, but if you want to support multiple authors, then let them retain ownership, otherwise you're walking into a minefield with regulating the namespace. -- <li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_zeal.png|User:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_talk.png|User talk:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_contribs.png|Special:Contributions/Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_end.png|User:Zeal </li></ul> 22:27, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * All content submitted to WoWWiki is released under the GNU FDL. WP:PA isn't so much about ownership as attribution. Since a wiki is essentially editable by anyone, it makes sense to allow an area for multiple people to contribute (and keep the speculation out of the main namespace). --Pcj (T&bull;C) 22:32, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I would like to note that, as Sky mentioned, as long as it is okay with the user who's name it is under, a page CAN be edited by other users. So I really don't see any need for a seperate namespace, except that the user whose name the article is under would have ultimate control of the article. This could be a problem for controversial articles such as the expansion ideas. - 22:31, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Tbh, expansion ideas needs cleanup more than anything, which is the page that sparked this. It should be maintained like race ideas is, with lore to support the next expansion, rather than just ideas about races to go with each expansion. What is there in WoW that we don't have a complete understanding yet? And I'd like to mention Airiph and X8. They've taken wonderfully to the idea of collaboration, and yet the pages are on one or the other's pages. Such collaboration is still possible with the User namespace. --Sky (talk | con | wh ) 01:31, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * It sounds like people are generally in agreement that a fan fiction namespace is a good idea, but needs some rules to keep it under control. Does anyone want to make up a rule page proposal and put it on WT:Fan fiction policy? --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]]  Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 12:54 PM PST 29 Nov 2007


 * I made a Rough draft. What 'Airiph and X8' are doing somewhat makes this, unneeded unless stories go out of just being written by small groups. This will work for idea pages though. Read what I wrote.-- 01:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Hold your horses! I'd would like to see opposition to the points I and Jiyambi bring up. And Zeal, now that I've reread what he wrote. --Sky (talk | con | wh ) 07:06, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Requesting further input from me? Sure you want to do that? ;) Lol.


 * The collaboration could be done in the userspace as is being done now, sure. Right now, afaik, that is a case of the authors retaining ownership and control and avoids any naming policy issues too, which is probably why it's working fine. But, i feel they're harder to track in the userspace. If that's a good or a bad thing is really up to how much limelight you intend to give fanfics on what is really an information wiki (for which i'm still unsure as to what the general consensus is).
 * If you want to give them as much focus as the rest of the articles on the wiki, then give them a namespace. But i strongly believe the safest and easiest root for all is to let authors retain ownership and manage their own articles and only use a naming policy specific to the namespace as i suggested (might even want to extend that to enforcing the use of sub articles and breadcrumbs for over arcing story lines / chapters). Otherwise Imo there'll be far too much argument over the content of articles in the namespace to reasonably handle.
 * Also worth considering is what constitutes as fan fiction appropriate for WW. You might need to lay down some rules to ensure the basis of the stories maintain their roots in Warcraft (ie. Everything that gets added needs a reasonable back story and stay in keeping with the Warcraft universe. So that means no adding traditional Vampires, Werewolves and spacecraft etc.). Depending how far you go with that, you could also say something like "No introduction of new races or planets", as they surely exist, but there is nothing to base them on in Warcraft and what an author could create thus has nothing to do with Warcraft anymore.


 * One last thing to mention, there's no need to talk about the article that spawned this here, as it's been decided that it will be reverted back to it's speculation only existance. A new fanfiction one could exist, but it shouldn't follow the same naming policy to avoid any issues. -- <li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_zeal.png|User:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_talk.png|User talk:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_contribs.png|Special:Contributions/Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_end.png|User:Zeal </li></ul> 19:13, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with everything you just said, Zeal. -- 20:28, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I would like to propose the 'idea' section of what I wrote be used to clean up articles like the Great Sea one...-- 20:58, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Whether you decide on a fanfic namespace or keep things in user pages, a page where fanfic authors can show off and talk about their creativity works just the same. If you make it attractive to writers, it's a great way to get good writers to come to the wiki, thereby increasing the quality of the content if they decide to participate. Think of a page full of snippets or synopses of the latest fan-fiction added to the site (or simply linked from another site) and a pump-style discussion page. Communities can spring out of that alone without creating a fanfiction namespace. Others could post full reviews as well (the organization of which I won't even bother going into).

P.S. Nice to see you guys, btw.


 * Here's some comments (hi Montag!):
 * Keeping fanfic restricted to one author is a nice idea, but not feasible outside a user's subpages. This breaks the spirit of wiki tremendously and I don't bring that up very often.
 * Discoverability in user's subpage is non-optimal. Right now the fanfic category is just a huge unsorted mess.
 * Although you can edit other people's user pages by strict definition, there is an unspoken understanding that editing other people's user pages is usually restricted primarily to talk pages. Most other edits are usually only to correct obvious mistakes (bad links, mis-use of paramters in templates, etc.) and by explicit request of the user.
 * Great Sea expansion pack ideas is a great example of something that cries out for a Fanfic: or Speculation: namespace. It is a shared work and so can't really go in a user page, but should not really be in the main namespace.
 * The fanfic policy already has provisions for keeping fanfic Warcraft based.
 * As Baggins as stated in other places, a fanfic tag sometimes is not enough to prevent confusion with genuine lore.
 * Anyway those are the related things I could think of off the top of my head. I will try to give this topic more deep consideration over the weekend. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 6:15 PM PST 30 Nov 2007

External links style consistancy
Currently the external links style is inconsistent, Links formed with linkie have the darker blue colour plus the external link icon, while links formed with stuff or stuff only have the slightly darkened text. Not a huge issue but it makes it a pain to pick out all external links at a glance is inconsistant. -- Kaso 03:43, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure it's intentional. Varying degrees of external-ness. 03:45, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * All external links are the same color for me, might be firefox. 03:49, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * All the external links are the same color for me, and I'm using Firefox. There is a difference between the internal and the external coloration, but that's probably just one of those subtle cues built into the MediaWiki engine. --Sky (talk | con | wh ) 04:21, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm seeing the first as unvisted colour, the rest are all visited colour (but they're not visited) so i'd imagine the css styling is wrong for external unvisted links (cba to look). As to the lack of external image icon, it would be nice to have specific to each type (so a little wp globe and a yellow wikia "w" for those). -- <li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_zeal.png|User:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_talk.png|User talk:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_contribs.png|Special:Contributions/Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_end.png|User:Zeal </li></ul> 22:07, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Defend WOW!
Hi, I am doing an ethnographic study of WOW, and am having a hard time getting direct feedback from real players. I know people bash WOW and WOW players, but my hypothesis is that this sort of online gaming is a replacement for social institutions which are no longer popular (scouts, elks lodge, stamp clubs, church...)

Anyway, this is your chance to let me know why you think WOW is a good thing, and I will put it all in my study. Let me know what it means to you, how you play, memorable moments, etc., etc.

Post it here, or email to:

worldofwarcraftsurvey@gmail.com

Thanks -- Friendo 08:43, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I do indeed think that WoW and other MMOGs are definitely a replacement for those sort of activities, however it does need to be taken in moderation. The reason WoW has such a bad name amongst some is due to its "addictiveness". People get addicted to alcohol but you don't see the rest of the world refusing to drink it just in case. WoW is an excellent game and is, in a way, revolutionary, however I feel that the negative stigma surrounding it is more the fault of those die-hard ignoring-family-and-personal-wellbeing-in-order-to-play fans than anything else. -- Kasyx 10:34, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Science has shown that some people are simply more prone to addiction than others, due to their chemical balance. This is true of smoking, drinking, gambling... and playing WoW. And actually it's been postulated that gambling and playing WoW have a lot in common: long stretches between "wins" which trigger a sense of euphoria - in gambling, winning money; in WoW, leveling or getting new gear or somesuch - that quickly fades, leaving the gambler/player to obsessively keep going for another win. Even if that is detrimental. It's a sad fact. The vast majority of players, however, use WoW as a constructive social tool and play in moderation. Just like how some people can drink socially without being alcoholics, or can go to Atlantic City for a weekend without blowing their life savings. Hekirou 11:37, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * WoW replaced being in a bowling league for me and my husband. Much cheaper (especially when you compare cost per hour of entertainment). 11:48, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Although the idea is laudable, it would be nice to have a few more details on the background of the study. We live in a cruel world and this could just be an attempt to collect e-mail addresses from WoWWikians. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 1:33 PM PST 28 Nov 2007


 * I think WoW is addictive to some people because it allows them to do things they never could in real life. I'm not just talking about the fantasy and gaming aspect here - yes its true to watch your character kick monster butt, but really I think the appeal is primarily social. In WoW you can gain special and rare items and high levels and others will look at your character and think, "wow, he's cool!" People with low self esteem or those who have a need for an ego boost find this incredibly addicting. Unfortunately, the game world becomes more important to these people than the real world, and they can loose touch with reality.


 * As long as players keep their priorities straight, WoW can be a fun place to spend a few hours and a way to make new friends. People just need to remember their real friends and real life, and that WoW is only a game. -- 22:38, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Me and my wife both play WOW with a group of people that we met back when Earth and Beyond came out. Not only is it a very cheap form of entertainment, we also enjoy the company of friends we have made through online MMORPG games.  This social form of gameplay has replaced the time I would usually spend doing other useless activities, such as watching TV, reading books, etc.   Davidstillson 15:29, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Howdy!
Is there anything I can do? I'm fairly bored. -- Treener 12:36, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Sounds like you want Wowpedia:Community portal :) 13:57, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

With the village pump now archived, this looks a lot better, Thankyou Coobra 07:45, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

WoWWiki slow as heck
Uhh. Why is wowwiki running like it's on a 386 with 64MB of ram? Is ther enot enough hardware? What can be done? How can I help?

-- Bane 21:33, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * was running just fine yesterday, seems to only be slow today Coobra 21:40, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Could be DNS related. I seem to have WoWWiki name lookup problems at least once a day. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 1:53 PM PST 29 Nov 2007


 * It's not. I see the title come up right away, meaning the connection is made and some data is downloading. The slowness is waiting for the server to generate the page, indicating the we server itself, or the DB backend being queried for data. Bane 23:15, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

There were server issues yesterday - don't worry, as soon as this kind of trouble starts, be assured there are techs working on it :) 16:17, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, my comment about DNS issues turned out to be on my side. I added some more DNS servers (thank you, OpenDNS) and it seems to be more reliable. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 11:34 AM PST 30 Nov 2007

Edit summaries
I just added a little bit of code from Wookiepedia that gives you standard edit summaries. Unfortunately due to server problems I can't access the site to look up more about it (currently I'm also seeing it above the headline box as I make a new section for some reason). Apart from that, look good to others? You may need to force-reload. 00:16, 1 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Update: the header thing can't be changed, but could probably be used to our advantage anyway. 03:00, 1 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The summary menu will fill in section header names when you use . Kinda odd, but not so bad. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 5:23 PM PST 1 Dec 2007

Broken tooltip in loot
Can anyone figure out why the tooltip doesn't work for ? -- Fandyllic  (talk · contr) 5:21 PM PST 1 Dec 2007
 * The script takes the tooltip from the page located at the displayed text, not the actual page. should work.
 * And it doesn't... :| --Sky (talk | con | wh ) 01:24, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Arbitrary linebreaks in the tooltip, the regular expression fails weirdly when there are multiple lines to match. --Pcj (T&bull;C) 01:34, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Pcj fixed it. I had too many linebreaks. My loot link was good. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 6:04 PM PST 1 Dec 2007


 * What's wrong with ? --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 6:22 PM PST 1 Dec 2007
 * ? I don't think the tooltip .js handles redirect pages. Linking directly to it works fine.-- 02:26, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Huh. --Sky (talk | con | wh ) 02:29, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Line break in the linked spell. The JS handles redirects and differently-named items fine. --Pcj (T&bull;C) 02:42, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * D'oh, I didn't realize it was a redirect. I'm such a dope. ---[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 8:33 PM PST 1 Dec 2007

Mob Drops
''Moved from Mob Drops in Warcraft pump. -- Fandyllic  (talk · contr) ''

When going about updating the mob information pages, one thing I've noticed is the differences in styles to present the same information, and realised the better ones are much harder to keep up to date and to update.

The list I like the best is that found through the automated process, Bloodpetal Flayer for example being

 

However, updating that list is exceptionally problematic. So, my question, now directed at those with the knowhow is to maybe have a template that is easier to update. Maybe to have a key at the beginning, like {{drop and to then list each item dropped, and allow that to bring in the level, type, icon etc. The only thing this doesn't resolve is the drop chances, but unless you rely on other sites such as Thottbot, would we be able to give a definative percentage?

So, is something like that possible?

-- Sanderdolphin 23:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Lets take a look at the row template usage, since that's where the problems mostly occur:
 * <tt> {{:Template:NPC drops row |item=Un'Goro Soil|level=1|type=Junk|droprate=25.72%}} </tt>
 * Analysis:
 * Well you can change <tt> {{:Template </tt> to just <tt> {{ </tt>, so that would save some space at least.
 * Parameters can be in any order if they have names so maybe reorder it to:
 * <tt> {{NPC drops row|droprate=25.72%|type=Junk|item=Un'Goro Soil|level=1}} </tt>
 * A problem is the manually entered mini-icon. Seems like a pain to look that up for every item. In the least the template could be changed to take a new <tt>icon=</tt> parameter like other templates and just require the image name without the <tt> [[Image: </tt> and <tt> .png </tt> so the line would look more like:
 * <tt> {{NPC drops row|droprate=25.72%|type=Junk|item= Un'Goro Soil|quality=Common|icon=INV_Misc_Dust_02|level=1}} </tt>
 * That's about the most I can think of at the moment. I may try to make the changes, if I get up the initiative.
 * However, to answer the question of looking up item info from an article, I don't think WoWWiki can handle that currently. It might be possible with some fancy javascript.--[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 5:48 PM PST 1 Dec 2007


 * As for the pic, see {{t|lootpic}} --{{:User:Jiyambi/Sig/Fancy}} 03:21, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * It can look up via good use of categories, but no one wants to do that ;) -- <li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_zeal.png|User:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_talk.png|User talk:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_contribs.png|Special:Contributions/Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_end.png|User:Zeal </li></ul> 02:29, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * They're designed to be updated by bot, User:Laurlybot in fact. {{User:Kirkburn/Sig4}} 02:57, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * User:Laurlybot created the tables, and uses Wowhead to reference drop rates. According to User talk:Laurlybot, Laurly intends to update them once a month or so.  So you shouldn't have to worry about it. --<span style="font-size: 0.85em; font-family: arial, 'comic sans'; padding: .2em .3em; border: 1px #504c50 solid;background-color: #000000"> DuTempete   talk  |  contr  14:44, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Does Laurlybot only update the drop tables? How does it know what mobs to update? Any drop tables updated by the bot should probably have some kind of tag in the article that warns about this. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]]  Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 11:18 AM PST 1 Dec 2007
 * Last time I talked to Laurly about it, Laurlybot still replaces the entire page. Maintaining Laurlybot's old information will "take a little more coding" and will be "stage two" when she reruns it updating everything. --Pcj (T&bull;C){{#ifeq:{{{1|}}}|time|  01:42, 3 December 2007 (UTC)|}} 01:42, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, replacing the whole page is a bad thing if players have added notes and strategies. This defeats the advantage of WoWWiki over just being a DB with a forum thread attached. So, using Laurlybot on an article to update drop info could be a mistake. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 11:11 PM PST 3 Dec 2007


 * The whole point of them being subpages was that they can be updated independently of the article. {{User:Kirkburn/Sig4}} 13:29, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

That particular table brings up a problem though... Savage Fronds, Un'Goro Soil and A Mangled Journal are not junk, they're quest items. Porfus the Gem Gorger has the same problem with its table, but I couldn't figure out how to fix it. An easy way to fix the category for an item included in the table would be nice. --Azaram 04:55, 5 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I concur with the difficulty in fixing problems, that's why I was wondering if we could change the way these pages are constructed. Is the wiki suitable for automated updates?  I've managed to update a couple of those pages and feel at pain to think those updates will be overwritten if the source of the data isn't up-to-date.  It's good having Laurybot to get the ball rolling, but at that point I think the automation should stop and let us go in an update it from there.  We could drop the drop percentage since that is not known to us without the use of external database collection sites, and then the information is fraught with mechanical anomolies - one such example is a quest drop that is a 100% drop shown as 1% since people are taking out the mob without the quest. -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by {{User|Sanderdolphin}}. 04:41, 6 December 2007

Help page on gold farming?
Just something I was wondering: Places to farm is an excellent (yet expandable) collection of suggestions on where to farm certain items. But how about people who are just looking for gold, such as those farming gold to get their enchants or an epic flying mount, or just people with nothing better to do? I thought it would be nice to have. Obviously you could take the other guide and farm the items so you can sell them, but this doesn't really tell anything about the fficienty concerning the gold earned (hourly, for example). Or does this already exist and I am just too dumb to find it? - - <tt style="color:#FF0000;"> ' tws 'talk'cont' </tt> 13:31, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * To farm gold, Daily Quests, the end. -- 17:20, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure daily quests are 'the' best way to make money. I tend to do better flying around and mining, on average. Bane 21:43, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * considering some of the daily quests require little to no effort and you get 10-20g from them, yea, dailys are the best way to make money.--Coobra 21:55, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Doing Dailies while in the 10-per-day limit is the fastest way to make money. (Having access to the Netherwing quests helps to fill this limit with quests, as not all of them reward that much) After that, of course other, farming activities become more lucrative. ~  07:24, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I wasn't actually so much asking for help here (i would have asked that in the Warcraft pump), I was really more thinking about a page to list a) ways to get money (such as daily quests, etc.) and b) places to farm that have a good gold per hour ratio. Literally, a small gold farming "guide" or reference. - - <tt style="color:#FF0000;"> ' tws 'talk'cont' </tt> 07:38, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Dated Pages
Is there a policy on information being dated? In my opinion any article should present the current state of the game, without any 'as of patch blah blah'. There could be a section refering to old mechanics, but all the places in articles I see 'as of blah blah' seems distracting. Eventually everything with be 'as of blah blah', given enough patching. Then what do we have but lots of noise? Bane 22:02, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Do you have a way of fixing this? It would just change to 'as of insertdatehere'.-- 22:15, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * You lost me. I'm saying for example, the Alterac Valley page. if you do a search for 'patch', it's all over the place. There's lots of sentences with 'as of patch 2.3', or 'In 2.3, it was changed to...' My point is, shouldn't statements like that be removed, or at least moved to a single section? If people are wanting info about AV, or any other topic, I think it's safe to assume that in general they want the current info, and they don't care which patch or when it changed. If they DO want that info, it's better to have it confined to a single section rather than spread throughout. --Bane 22:23, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Sometimes its good to know when things have changed, or reasons why its different than what it used to be. Records are kept of all the patches on wowwiki, and I'd rather not have to review the patch notes, if something I didn't know changed was directly on the page of what I what to see is different.--Coobra 22:19, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * If you want to know what's changed, ya can go to the Recent Changes section, rather than having 'as of patch 2.3' peppered all over. --Bane 22:23, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * AV was not in 1.1.-- 22:28, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Recent changes is one thing, and with pages being updated all the time, looking at the recent change page doesn't help very much at all. Lets say, for example, I played the game back in its early days, quit for a year and came back finding certain things are completely different and I go to look it up. I would like to see what has changed, not just what it currently is. So having it the way you suggested with removing 'as of' all over the placing and making a new section on the page for it would be a good idea. As its right there on the page, and you don't have to go all over the place to see changes.--Coobra 22:46, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay, here's my example: http://www.wowwiki.com/index.php?title=Battlegrounds&diff=prev&oldid=1018801. I changed a sentence, and while I was there, removed a (as of patch 2.3), since it doesn't seem pertinent to the actual information being presented there. This made me wonder if I should have removed the 'as of' or not. --Bane 22:33, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I see. That is fine as long a the info on changes is kept in another section like you said.-- 22:36, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure if you're opinion is that such information is outdated, or merely unnecessary. "As of patch [yada-yada]" generally means that the information mentioned was not in game until the patch mentioned.  So, that information should be up to date.
 * One of the things I plan on working on with the Warlock pages is populating the patches and hotfixes lists. Such a list is included on most boilerplates, and should be eventually be filled out.  It is a new addition to the boilerplates, so one cannot expect them to fill themselves out. [[Image:Tonguesmiley.gif]]
 * Even so, the patches and hotfixes list does not need to be the only place where that information is located. I don't see any issues with "as of patch..." being a part of the main article, as it is definitely an attractive bit of information to some people.  I'd say you're welcome to remove it, as long as you make sure to replace it with an entry in the patches and hotfixes section should it not already exist.  But, please, do consider that others, such as the returning-from-hiatus player that Coobra mention, may enjoy seeing that in the article. --<span style="font-size: 0.85em; font-family: arial, 'comic sans'; padding: .2em .3em; border: 1px #504c50 solid;background-color: #000000"> DuTempete   talk  |  contr  04:47, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
 * See Help:Ability articles for how we (meaning people who put the page together) dealt with this. We decided to stuff all the old information into a changes section at the end. Feel free to be inspired for a different naming scheme for other articles, but I would find that appropriate on any page, personally. A lot of things have been changed, so having sections like that doesn't seem a bad thing. :) As for the use in pages, it's helpful when a new patch hits, as it immediately informs the browser that the information may be incorrect. Again, not a bad thing. You do make a good point about the "noise" factor; I would personally deal with it by having only the last patch, if that, inline with the rest of the information. --Sky (talk | con | wh ) 05:24, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


 * So here are some problems with the idea of dated pages vs. piecemeal update info:
 * The date only helps if the entire article has been reviewed and ensured to be up to date to the date listed. This is almost never true. People usually only update what they happen to know is wrong.
 * A date is only useful if it is associated with a particular reference. If an article has multiple references because one reference can't cover all the info, then how does a single date reflect the date of multiple references?
 * The piecemeal info is useful to some people who want to know the trend of patch changes on particular area. This helps people predict where something might be going and plan accordingly.
 * We do need to reduce the "noise", but dating pages doesn't really help. I agree with Sky that having the last patch info inline and older patches moved down is probably the best course. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 11 PM PST 3 Dec 2007


 * A quick response to DuTempete: unfortunately, a lot of what we're seeing - and what Bane is bringing up - is "<much declaration about how such and such works>. As of Patch X, this is no longer true."  Alterac Valley is littered with crap like that.  You read long stretches of text about how something works, only to find out it isn't true anymore.  So it isn't just used for "As of Patch 2.3, this was added to the game."  That wouldn't be problematic.  It's the other kind that drives me up a wall.  Hekirou 14:33, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Just to be clear, when I said 'dated', I never meant literally. I meant more like saying 'The president of the United States is Bill Clinton' is a dated statement. I am not saying we should put dates instead of patches. I'm talking about information that is inherently dated information. One could argue everything is dated, by virtue of the fact it could change at any time. But saying 'As of patch 2.3....' just adds another level of dating to individual statements that is for the most part redundant. I'm all for a seperate section on recent changes, but I think the articles themselves should strive to represent the current state of the game, without filling it with noise of 'as of patch blah'. For those interested on when certain changs happened, they could refer to a seperate section. I play with a fairly novice gamer, and sending her here to read about things, it's one of her complaints. She gets confused about what is current, what isn't, etc. She just wants to know the facts right now. She doesn't care what patch it happened in, and in fact it just confuses the issue for her. I hope my position is more clear now. --Bane 20:25, 5 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll add my voice in favor of a policy (or at least practice) of keeping the main article applicable to the current game version, with historical changes in their own section, and to some small degree also in the main section. On a related note, I've found it redundant (and thus unhelpful) for the main article to have qualifiers like with "Now, ...." or "Currently, ...". -- Harveydrone 01:21, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with this, sometimes it gets really confusing. A special changes section for historical purposes would be nice though. --Amro 10:28, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with Bane too... when I'm looking for something, I want to know what it is, not what it was. When I'm just killing time at work, then I'd look through the 'Patch history' or whatever section. Put the last patch changes inline, as 'As of patch 2.3, wibble phlibble foo', then in the history section 'Patch 2.1 Ikky Ikky P'tang ZOOM boing rowr, ni!' and so on. Then when a new patch comes out, it all has to be updated again. Maybe put the current patch stuff in the history as well, just so it's easier... And to clear up the confusion, Bane means 'outdated'. Dated is correct English, but a bit confusing in this context, as you saw. --Azaram 07:44, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Tanking armor
Could someone please address the question I rose at Template_talk:Tooltip regarding gear with green armor values? The current system for this is largely unused from what I've seen, and has very strange effects that I can't imagine are intended. Hekirou 13:25, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Settip bug?
Can anyone tell me why I see as the tooltip for ? I checked the Whitemend Wisdom page, and it onlyincludes the settip template, which creates a tooltip for the set as a whole. For some reason though, that isn't the tip that gets passed through to loot, and I'm pretty certain that isn't how it's meant to work. Hekirou 14:37, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't link to sets using loot. They're not linked that way in-game, and they shouldn't be here. --Pcj (T&bull;C) 14:41, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Whyever not? I don't particularly care if they're linked that way in game; by its very nature, the wiki is more flexible than the game.  And it can be helpful to have a tooltip appear for a set.  For example, the Whitemend Wisdom and Primal Mooncloth sets both reference each other.  Why can't we have a floating tooltip à la loot?  Hekirou 15:23, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
 * We can, but I don't see what purpose it would serve. --Pcj (T&bull;C) 17:22, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
 * set is now working. Example: set: Whitemend Wisdom.  The set page must have settip not inside . --Pcj (T&bull;C) 04:22, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I have to ask: Why not includeonly? Surely changing the script to account for that wouldn't kill it, would it? --Sky (talk | con | wh ) 05:49, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * What the JS sees is based on what is rendered on the page. It doesn't include it via the wiki. --Pcj (T&bull;C) 14:20, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Darktable and related classes
I have a question, and I don't know any other place to ask. I'm trying to learn how to use tables, and I'm wondering if there is a list of related classes? I know there's class="darktable" for the basic table class, and class="title" to have a centered, bold text on a lighter background [notably meant for the first cell in a row]. Are there any other classes? For example, is there a way to center data in a cell without the bold text or light background of the title class? What if I want to center everything in a table? To make things easier, is there maybe a list of classes somewhere? It's not like there's a template where I can just go to darktable or something and look up the documentation ^_^

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Hekirou 21:05, 5 December 2007 (UTC)


 * WP:MOS may have some answers for you, but if this is regarding an article, sticking to darktable is much preferred. To center an entire table, I think  would work.  22:27, 5 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, the table in most immediate question is for a page in the user space [a list of my characters, to be specific], but I'm sort of using the page as a sandbox to figure out how tables work on here. I'm still pretty nubbish on darktable itself, so I'm practicing with my own stuff before I even try to work on article tables.  Hekirou 14:36, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

building up reputation around 50 - need or greed ?
need or greed ? when reading Cenarion_Circle_reputation_guide i wondered. could a simple line be added to all the factions whether or not getting the rep for them is even needed post tbc ..

for instance, i have a paladin lvl 56 and i dont have any crafting professions (just trying to make a bit of cash with skinning and herbing (at least , for the time being)) with my current gear i probably can make it into outland and from what i've read everything people had pre-tbc was pretty much replaced in their early 60's. and this faction seems to be really good for getting nice patterns , but i cant find any other use so far.

however .. when around 70 it turns out i need to be to these guys to do like entering a instance ill likely be *bleeped* if i dont start building up rep early (which of course goes for this and other factions), basically .. is there a certain preferable route to get the most rep which makes the most sense to every class/prof ?

-- CoZ 00:31, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Most reps pre-tbc where either for nothing, or for patterns/recipestrinkets. And placing greed or need reasons would be mainly opinions, its up to the person to decided whether or not it's worth it to them. If you don't have a crafting profession, earning most reps would be a waste of time, unless they have something you feel would be worth while.

-- 01:21, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, pretty much. The CC rep patterns are still useful for some things, like the Satchel of Cenarius, herbalists still want because it's the largest bag we can get. But like Coobra says, you have to decide whether it's worth it to you. Since they have squat for alchemy or engineering, I gave up on it on my druid and haven't even BEEN to Silithus on my hunter, but because they have some enchanting stuff, my warlock might have to do it... Note also, that at least in the case of Timbermaw Hold rep, 'substantially increased' means 'now you get 2 rep per kill instead of one'... so you only need to kill 11,000 thong-wearing teddybears instead of 21,000 to go from revered to exalted.. (And yes, I know about the beads and feathers.) --Azaram 04:16, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh ... a mere 11000 .. that will be easy *sigh* .. hehe ... At this moment i wish i didnt read about the  .. now i want it badly :D .. i guess it wont hurt to get to level 62,63,64-ish get some outland gear and go back to azeroth and aoe 11000 teddys ??  .. cheers guys CoZ 09:35, 10 December 2007 (UTC) ... Oh before i spend the next month grinding furbolgs ,is there a similar trinket to the  that is slightly more easy to get my greedy hands on? - sorry by the way that this entry got a bit off topic for the village pump and more suitable for the warcraft pump but as long as its here i guess it wont matter much - CoZ 10:11, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Nothing is really similar to it in BC, except maybe the PvP trinkets that just heal one-shot on a CD. The pet teddy bear doesn't scale to level 70 at all, so it's mostly a novelty. --Piu (?!) 06:13, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * i did also find that it doesnt scale a while after i typed the message here, thanks for the heads up!!. i also found its still usefull in some situations at 70 but it stops being uber after 65ish .. and that is indeed disappointing. will have to give it some serious thought. since i found a post somewhere stating that with a raid group its pretty easy to get the rep for honored in less than days. and exalted will still be a bit trouble. still, i wonder if the whole guild gets this reward how broken it will be around 70. just imagine a raid on the other factions town or some instance with everyone being able to summon a teddy.. hmmm. decisions decisions.. well first i guess i need to dig the forums if there is a blue comment about this teddy if it will never ever get buffed and maybe QQ a bit there :D .. oh well .. i'll let the guild decide :) - cheers guys - CoZ 10:43, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The teddybear only barely scaled to level 60... it folds like a cheap suit at the first sight of anything dangerous, mostly. The post about getting honored with a raid is outdated... at one point, it was possible to get in a raid and camp the four or five different areas that the furbolg spawned; kill one and everyone in the raid gets rep. Now, it's only if you're in range of it, like XP. Not enough of them in any one place to make a raid worthwhile. --Azaram 09:12, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

DNP policy and Talk page guidelines
I just made some updates to WP:DNP and WP:TALK regarding personal attacks, since I noticed it wasn't exactly explicit previously. Hopefully nothing controversial :) 19:44, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * As expected, incidents of discrimination or personal atttacks should be reported in Wowpedia:Violations. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 2:39 PM PST 7 Dec 2007


 * Ta for adding the decreed notes! 22:42, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Problem with patrolled status on Recent changes?
The red bar next to unpatrolled pages seems to have disappeared from my Recent changes page. Is anyone else (who is a patroller, mostly) seeing this? -- Fandyllic  (talk · contr) 2:28 PM PST 7 Dec 2007


 * I'm still trying to figure out where this mark as patrolled link is supposed to be and what happened to the preference option for patrollers... >_> Never seen a red bar on RC unless you're refring to the red "!", which i do still have. -- <li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_zeal.png|User:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_talk.png|User talk:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_contribs.png|Special:Contributions/Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_end.png|User:Zeal </li></ul> 07:17, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

leper gnome faction
On thottbot, it says that by killing some dragon (they recently deleted the post that said who),you gain 4 rep with the lepers and if you get revered, you can buy the ashbringer for 20s. If anyone knows for sure, please let me know. -- Gnomez 01:55, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I haven't heard it, but offhand I'd say it's a load of secondhand clefthoof lunch. --Azaram 07:11, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I second that opinion. - 08:25, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

good point, but sense i'm grownded, i can't test it Gnomez 18:43, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * No possible way that the above is true. No need to test it. See, you can't get it in-game, yet. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 7:20 PM PST 9 Dec 2007

Even more tooltips...
Aside from the set tooltips discussed earlier, I've been developing hover tooltips for NPCs,, quests , and maps with coordinate-based locations on them, based mainly on DarkRyder's work. Please discuss any ideas or problems you find. Thanks. --Pcj (T•C) 05:35, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Super cool!
 * Hey, I noticed you wisely moved Help:Loot and tooltip to Help:Tooltips. Could you update Help:Tooltips to reflect the new support for co, npcbox, and questbox? --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]]  Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 12:05 AM PST 9 Dec 2007
 * Yeah, I was planning on updating it soon. --Pcj (T&bull;C) 14:19, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I must say, I really don't like the NPC tooltip. The images in the tooltip make it extremely large, and seldom do I actually get to see important information about the NPC. Instead I see half of the NPC's picture and the rest is cut off by the end of the page. I do like the other tooltips you have made (such as the one for quest), and if there was a way for the npc tooltip to contain a smaller picture, part of the picture, or no picture, I would like it is well. That's just my two cent's worth. -- 08:22, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, I've set the height of the picture to 150px. Please let me know if that will work. --Pcj (T&bull;C) 14:19, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * That looks a million times better to me, Pcj! Thanks :) -- 19:51, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * On Firefox, when I hover over the coordinates, I get a spastic cursor and the tooltip just flickers in and out. It's like my pointer has to be on exactly a blue pixel in the coordinate text, but the tooltip display changes the cursor icon, and it now rests on a different pixel that is not blue text, and the tooltip vanishes, changing my mouse cursor again, back on to a blue pixel, and lo, the cycle repeats. Maybe a small icon would be better in the template? --Piu (?!) 06:00, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Additional info: this only happens when the link text appears above my mouse cursor. If I scroll the page down so the tooltip is forced below the text, I get no issue. --Piu (?!) 06:04, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, what version of FireFox are you using? I don't have any problems. On a side note, I notice we have a T:Mobbox that probably isn't supported by the new NPC hover tooltips. Do we want to roll mobbox into npcbox or support mobbox? We could also do away with mob which I only created because I'm lazy and don't want to enter the faction for mobs. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 1:50 PM PST 12 Dec 2007
 * Okay, I made a version of Pcj's npctooltip.js for mobs at User:Fandyllic/mobtooltip.js. I modified T:Mobbox so it would work with the new JS and tested it at mob/Test. You can see it work at Template talk:Mob/Test, if you add the following to your <tt>User:&lt;username&gt;/wowwiki.js</tt> file:
 * <tt>// mobtooltips (test based on User:Pcj/npctooltip.js)</tt>
 * <tt>document.write('<script type="text/javascript" src=" \</tt>
 * <tt>http://www.wowwiki.com/index.php?title=User:Fandyllic/mobtooltip.js \</tt>
 * <tt>&action=raw&ctype=text/javascript&dontcountme=s&smaxage=18000"> ');</tt>
 * --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 6:54 PM PST 12 Dec 2007
 * OK, sorry I was not replying; ice storm knocked out the power. To support mobs and mobbox, everything that links to a mob page would have to use something like mob to link to it.  It doesn't look like it's set up that way currently.  --Pcj (T&bull;C) 16:56, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I think T:Mobbox could very easily be incorporated into npcbox. --Pcj (T&bull;C) 21:53, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, ultimately we should probably roll mob into NPC and T:Mobbox into npcbox. If we make npcbox mostly compatible with mobbox (just change &#123;&#123;mobbox to &#123;&#123;npcbox and only have to change 1 or 2 other things) then we could do away with mob template. Since people were already using mobbox, I decided to see if just having mob tooltips separately linked to the mob template would work. Unfortunately, tons of articles use mobbox currently. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 2:51 PM PST 13 Dec 2007
 * One possibility as an interim step before updating all the T:Mobboxes is to change npcbox to accomodate mobbox and change mobbox to call npcbox with the appropriate parameters. --Pcj (T&bull;C) 22:58, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I've plugged T:Mobbox into npcbox and mob into npc, so that should be working now --Pcj (T&bull;C) 19:48, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay, made some changes and the mob template should now work without changes where it is transcluded and still use NPC as the underlying template. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 10:48 AM PST 15 Dec 2007

help with a hot dog
I made the Darkmoon Dog page but i can't get it's price. it's 25 copper but the page says silver. could someone help me? -- Gnomez 19:13, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Never mind. I fixed it
 * --Gnomez 19:22, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

user pages
I'm sorry, it probably says it somewhere but, I don't know where so, how many personal images can I have for my user page? -- Gnomez 20:48, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Wikia has a limit of 1 or something like that, but I'm not sure we have a particular limit. Just try to keep your images medium to small (<100Kb, but <50Kb is better) and identify them clearly (Gnomez char.jpg). Kirkburn may have more specific restrictions based on what we inherit from our Wikia hosts. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 5:47 PM PST 9 Dec 2007


 * No limits, except be sensible (i.e. be Warcraft-related) :) The limit of one is only for Wikia central. 15:40, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

darkmoon food
I could use a hand editing the foods that are sold at the darkmoon faire so if any one can help click here Stamp Thunderhorn to see the articles that need to be made

-- Gnomez 23:25, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I will try to help out with this. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 5:43 PM PST 9 Dec 2007


 * Looks like all the foods sold by are filled out now. Anything else? --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]]  Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 5:30 PM PST 10 Dec 2007

A page for cool WoWWiki Javascript changes?
So, I stole some cool javascript stuff from Sky (mostly to change personal links style at top-right and add access to user css and js). This inspired me to add javascript to make a new tab what links here that shows up at the top of the page after existing tabs because I'm too lazy to scroll down to see the regular link on the sidebar.

I'd also like someone to look over my javascript, in case it is really inefficient (I'm a dubious coder): // adds "what links here" tab to right of normal page tabs function changeTabs { if ( escape(wgPageName) != "Special%3AWhatlinkshere" ) { var divs = document.getElementsByTagName('div'); var tabHTML = document.getElementById('p-cactions').innerHTML; var newTabHTML = tabHTML.replace(/&lt;\/ul&gt;/i,&#39;&#39;) + "&lt;i id='ca-linkshere'&gt;&lt;a href='/Special:Whatlinkshere/"+ escape(wgPageName) +"'>What links here&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;"; document.getElementById('p-cactions').innerHTML = newTabHTML; } } addOnloadHook(changeTabs); We may not want to encourage this too much since you can really screw up your wiki, if you screw up, but do we want a page to show people cool custom javascript things they can add? -- Fandyllic  (talk · contr) 5:52 PM PST 10 Dec 2007
 * WP:GOUS. Hasn't been updated in awhile, I imagine, but it is there. I actually stole those from the bird and the alphabet soup. :) --Sky (talk | con | wh ) 06:03, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * WP:GOUS is a start, but all the various customizations are sort of mashed together, so you have to figure out how to extract what you want without any particular guidance. Maybe I'll try to make a new page like Wowpedia:Customizations that has the WW:GOUS stuff broken down by component with short explanations of what they do and how to put it in a user CSS or JS file. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 1:51 PM PST 11 Dec 2007


 * I would suggest implementing some way to alter WP:GOUS such that the script snippet(s) which is required for the modifications can be quickly linked to directly, rather than creating a new page. I'll work on that. --Pcj (T&bull;C) 18:20, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Manga template
Input requested on Graphic novel template talk please. -- <li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_zeal.png|User:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_talk.png|User talk:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_contribs.png|Special:Contributions/Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_end.png|User:Zeal </li></ul> 09:07, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

missing articles between 'starting a (class)' and 'raiding specs'
I think the starting a (class) pages could use some tips on what type of gear and stats to look for and for which spec they are important. also some tips about specs can be added. maybe there is even a need for a 'so your a low level (class) - what now' kind of article... The reason i say this comes from after viewing Paladin_builds and Paladin_talents and Paladins:_Tips_and_Advice and the Starting a Paladin article. these articles are all nice. and i would like to stress that in the end its all what the player wants to do with their character. But there is no real information about what is really interesting to look for between level 10 and 70 .. and thats a lot of levels. maybe its out there but then it would be nifty having it linked from the newbie/starter section. for some classes stats are more straight forward as for other classes but still imho it would be sensible to talk about the subject - especially somewhere accessible through the newbie section. (if i had the experience off all the classe i would do it myself, but i think i need some lessons myself - you guessed right i have a paladin and in the early levels most gear i could find and were seemingly good had +strenght on it. i started to focus a lot on strenght and i think i have more than sufficient of it. in fact i'm suspecting i went overkill on +str and thats why i 'hardly' do damage (i do nice damage but when i hear other paladins and other classes brag i fail) - i think i lack spelldamage.. if anyone can confirm that would be sweet [armory] ) ,

in summary, i think there could be more information about stats and talents for levels 10 - 69 and easilly accessible through the new player articles -- CoZ 14:25, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * You're right about alot of guidance and info missing for levels 10 through 69 or so, but unfortunately most people come to WoWWiki for end-game info, instance strategies, gear advice and the like. Now that has raised the level cap to 70, most folks don't even care about stuff until you get there. It was this way at level 60 before the expansion. WoWWiki suffers from what is somewhat of a basic flaw in most MMOs that as their populations get older and larger, the characters get skewed toward the high-end.
 * Also, the whole idea of spec really doesn't matter as much until the higher levels. Even characters with what you might call "screwed up" specs (like my chars, LOL) can do a passable job in most cases if the player is semi-skilled and knowledgable about how they play their class.
 * Ultimately, do some research, talk to some friendly higher level chars of the same class (in your guild, if you have one, would be best) and just try to have fun. The other big problem with most games is the gear makes too much of a difference where skill is roughly equal, so people are always trying to get into high-powered guild that can get to the most high-powered gear. However, alot of PvP gear can be comparable to high-end raiding gear, so you might want to pursue that path.
 * WoWWiki content is only as good as the contributors make it. If you want to make it better, start an article or work on an existing one and lobby people in WoWWiki with experience and knowledge to add to it. The Newbie guide was pretty weak at one time and has gotten pretty good, but it tooks some time. Keep bugging people on the Village pump and talk pages and hopefully you'll get some momentum. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 1:37 PM PST 11 Dec 2007
 * From looking at your character in the Armory, it looks like you need to do a few higher level instance runs. It looks like you've done Zul'Farrak and Maraudon, but you might want to try Sunken Temple (although I sort of hate this dungeon) and Blackrock Depths. If you can get some high-level help, consider Dire Maul, LBRS, UBRS, Scholomance or Stratholme. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 1:45 PM PST 11 Dec 2007
 * Thanks for the advice about the instances, i didnt spend too much time in all the instances since the gear is nice but i wanted to go through the levels a bit faster and somehow instances are less rewarding for leveling. But then again i love seeing all the content, i was stunned by the beauty of some parts of maraudon. molten core is on my to do list for the shield (3 addition reflecting damage - <3 oh and the looks <3 lol ) . And i did went into scholomance yesterday (dark runes for mount quest) and likely will return there today :D (since i have 3/5). CoZ 09:32, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
 * more on topic. It was mainly that i felt there could be a line or two like 'as a you will probably find with and as the most benificial (and mostly for hybrids a bit more in depth info) for <spec (example feral)> you will find and the most usefull and for <(balance)spec> you will have the most use for  .However do not ignore some other stats in the long run, mix in some and for balance and with less priority some additional or '  but i think you got most of my point and im glad you agree there is a gap between newbie info and raiding info (that last is not restricted to just this wiki i might add ;) ) CoZ 09:32, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Fixing lots of item pages
Hi. I noticed that as of somewhat recently (Aug 2007), Laurlybot edited lots of item pages to show sources. The trouble is, the word "dropped" is missspelled as "droped". (eg Witherbark Tusk) So I put on note on Laurly's page, but then I noticed that foxbot has been doing more recent item page edits. My question is, what's the best way for me to get all the occurrences of "droped" fixed? Retag for Laurlybot? Retag for foxbot? Make a new bot request? Do all the edits myself? Thanks. -- Harveydrone 22:31, 11 December 2007 (UTC) (aka spelling nerd)


 * If the problem is with the bot, then retagging won't help. Just fix it, add to it, and move on. Laurlybot is a monthly thing. By the time you retag it and wait for a change, someone else would have already done it and removed the stub. 01:37, 12 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Right, I meant to retag it for a bot that would fix the problem. Also, there are hundreds of pages with the problem, and I'm looking for an alternative to doing these hundreds of edits myself. Is there a bot that can simply look for specific text and replace it? -- Harveydrone 20:49, 12 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Should be fixed now. -- Starlightblunder 22:42, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Make a standard for talent build pages
There needs to be a standard in how talent build pages for each class is presented. Besides the NPOV issues; I tagged a few today; they are not consistent. My suggestion would be to.
 * One section per Talent Tree
 * One Section for cross trees specific builds
 * Within each section a PvE, a PvP, Raid, and Arena build.
 * No more than ten lines to describe any build.
 * Highlight no more than five must have talents.
 * Highlight avoid at all cost talents, if any

16:20, 12 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Can you start a Help:Talent build articles page with an example? --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 7:31 PM PST 12 Dec 2007


 * Not on your life. I don't like ya'll enough to fix it. Since it is one of the major areas of character development one of the high and mighties needs to step in and take charge of it.  After getting an understanding of how this place worked its far better to point out the problems instead of fixing them.  After all opinions don't count for jack unless your in the clique.   14:27, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * You're so helpful. Good luck with getting people to help out then. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 8:57 AM PST 13 Dec 2007


 * I'm not in any clique and my opinions counted... but srsly, if you're only willing to point out problems and not even try to help, then don't bother. 18:49, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh well, leave the pages looking like someone's personal monument to their characters, its your site, your loss. Typical of many places all most of ya'll are concerned about is making new pages and new templates/toys and never cleaning the mess up or watching over it.  Maintenance is a bore, but it has to be done.
 * Coobra, if you bothered to look at many of the class pages I did fix a lot of them a long time agon, however no one set standards or bothered to keep people from trashing them with personal builds and such.  11:28, 14 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Can I point out this is everyone's site. And please don't presume to know others. A lot of people spend a lot of time improving articles, and it is pretty insulting to say that no-one cares about making quality pages.
 * This site is also not about keeping pages how you want them. You fixed them a long time ago, and we appreciate that. However, we can't stop people editing them and making changes. We do appreciate you pointing out areas needing improvement, but your attitude to Fandyllic's reasonable request for a visual pointer was pretty rude. Work with us, please :)
 * On topic, you could add something to the projects of the Wowpedia:Community portal? 02:40, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Scheduled maintenance
Hi all, just to let you know there may be some intermittent downtime between 3am and 7am UTC tomorrow (Friday). We are adding some more servers, and will have to move things around a bit. Sorry for the disturbance -- sannse (talk) 20:35, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Also, an update on the upgrade. Wikia is in the process of upgrading their wikis to MW 1.12 atm, and depending on how it goes we'll either be upgraded shortly before Christmas or just after the new year. Fingers crossed :) 02:45, 15 December 2007 (UTC)


 * * Waves goodbye to his username* Why not over xmas? :p -- <li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_zeal.png|User:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_talk.png|User talk:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_contribs.png|Special:Contributions/Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_end.png|User:Zeal </li></ul> 11:08, 15 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Unless its an automated process, that would be cruel to the wikia gnomes and goblins. ;-) --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 9:02 AM PST 15 Dec 2007


 * Kirkburn is kind of busy now that he's been absorbed by the greater Wikia, but he did tell me that the maintenance went a little longer than expected. If you notice lingering problems (site performance mostly), please comment here, but check to see if wikia.com has similar issues. Theoretically WoWWiki is more separated from other wikia sites server-wise, so problems may be unique to WoWWiki. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 12:13 PM PST 16 Dec 2007


 * Until the grand integration day, of course :) Oh, we shall have so many new and useful toys that day ... At some point I might see about making a list or changes to help people see how they can help us. 03:29, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Zone quest lists
It appears that we don't have a standard naming policy for zone quest lists like Dustwallow Marsh quests or Ghostlands quest list or Silvermoon City QuestList. Or even a boilerplate for that matter. I would assume the manual of style would suggest we use "Dustwallow Marsh quests" but I'd like to field community opinion before I start unilaterally renaming articles. Thoughts? -- 23:26, 15 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Its the same with armor ... some its Armor:Legs and others just Belts, (missing the Armor:, and should have been called Waist). Some in plural form others not. Just gets a little confusing when creating a page for a set of armor and trying to figure out which way to put it for all the pieces. Here's the page if you want to see what I mean http://www.wowwiki.com/Category:Armor 00:41, 16 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I started a campaign to standardize and make any missing quest lists for all zones, but I haven't worked on it much lately. I have been naming such pages as "<Zone> quests", which I believe has been confirmed by Sky and Kirkburn as the correct naming convention. The format I have been using, in it's most up to date form, is followed by the Teldrassil quests page, if anyone is interested. I have been tracking my progress on this as a personal project, but it can be turned into a wiki-wide project if there is interest in it. -- 03:16, 16 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I think Jiyambi has it right. I'm going to make a master list at Quest lists by zone that lists all the "<Zone> quests" pages and put it in the Quests by zone category. This way we can see which ones have not been done yet or have a big list to jump between them from. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 12:18 PM PST 16 Dec 2007


 * That solves half the problem. Unfortunately, most of them will exist because initially when I was updating the main zone pages, I just moved the quest lists that were on those pages there. However, very few of them are updated to the table format. -- 20:39, 16 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Another issue is that the list was initially incomplete. Perhaps you or someone else could put a subset list of pages that need re-formatting or other changes on the talk page. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 1:57 PM PST 16 Dec 2007

Sounds like it might be best to go ahead and make a wiki project page for it. I will do that within the next few days, and link it from the quest list talk page. In addition, I would like to see what other people think about the list's formatting, so we can decide on a uniform way to format them. Personally I like the look of Teldrassil quests (of course I'm very biased seeing as I started that page) - it includes all quests, including those not categorized under Teldrassil but which take place there; it is fully sortable; it contains class-specific quests in their own section; it contains a list of major quest chains with a link from the quest's entry to it's chain; and it contains an icon to denote whether quests take place in the zone or elsewhere. If anyone has an issue with this format, let me know. Once I get a project page going, we can move such discussion there. -- 05:04, 17 December 2007 (UTC)


 * You can base your project on Quest list work to be done section of Quest lists by zone talk page. I tried to be pretty thorough, so hopefully you won't need to do much to set up your project. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 10:11 PM PST 16 Dec 2007


 * Drat, had I only looked at that before! Okay, I made Wowpedia:Quest list project, but now I need to consolidate it with the stuff you made so we don't have formatting info in two places. By the way, that page looks amazine, hats off to you and Sky. It will be a great place to work from as well. I think it best to have the formatting info on the project page, so after I finish going through what you have there I will try and combine them there, then link to it from the Quest lists by zone talk page. We will see how it goes. -- 06:53, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Wowhead Talent Calculator Links
A bunch of the Wowhead talent calculator links seemed to stop working recently. I've updated all the links in the talent build pages, but if there are more elsewhere I didn't find, to update them you change the first character of the URL after '?talent=' to a specific class indicator as follows:
 * '0' for Druid
 * 'c' for Hunter
 * 'o' for Mage
 * 's' for Paladin
 * 'b' for Priest
 * 'f' for Rogue
 * 'h' for Shaman
 * 'I' for Warlock
 * 'L' for Warrior

For Example, http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=MtcrziIsgzVoZxeh (a druid build) becomes http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0tcrziIsgzVoZxeh -- Nescience 18:53, 16 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for noticing and fixing. I'm copying your message to Talk:Talent and Talk:Wowhead, in case people might look for the info there. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 11:57 AM PST 16 Dec 2007


 * Thanks for copying it over, I wasn't sure where to put the info. -- Nescience 20:25, 16 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The old links are working again, so these changes aren't necessary for the time being. But they don't hurt. -- Nescience 19:55, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Fixing Armor categories
Fixing these is going to take some time, help is always appreciated. World of Warcraft armor items Converting for example all the Boots to Armor:Feet, to make a standard. If anyone wants to help, they could start in the other cats, or work from Z to A in boots. Thankyou, 22:22, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Coobra - Currently on: Boots -> Armor:Feet from I to Z Be back later to finish up. 02:00, 17 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Wait up, has anyone agreed to this? 03:46, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Boots (and Belts) was aggreed upon. It used to be Armor:Feet. That said, we do have someone going through Category:World Drops and renaming them to Category:Uncommon World Drops (and etc; these should actually be categorized as Category:Uncommon world drops). that said, I don't think alphabetizing them will help; they're already alphabetized in their categories (I think there's a template or something that could be added that would partially fix the issue...) --Sky (talk | con | wh ) 05:18, 17 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok...sry. It may have been agreed upon for belts, boots, gloves, etc ... But its really confusing having half the armor categorized one way and the other half the other way. And if I had known where to look to see that it was agreed to that way, I wouldn't have done anything. 05:39, 17 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree, it is very confusing for it to be half and half. I wasn't party to the original discussions on this, is there some way we can pick one convention and change things from there? A bot should be able to take care of the category changes, I should think. -- 05:40, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree too. But do you know how to change Category:World of Warcraft chest items to something that can be used for all the classes? :/ All I can think of is Category:Chest armor or Category:Chest. But then, cat:chest isn't very helpful in the way Belts is. --Sky (talk | con | wh ) 05:44, 17 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Thats why I thought it best to turn Belts into Armor:Waist. Same with boots ... cause not all the foot wear are boots... there's sandals, slippers, etc. 05:51, 17 December 2007 (UTC)


 * You should finish whatever part of the conversion you were doing so it isn't half done, but don't proceed with other parts until some consistent naming is agreed to. Personally, I think we should base the categories on the Equipment slots. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 10:18 PM PST 16 Dec 2007


 * I agree that basing it off the equipment slots would be the most consistent. However, we don't want to name them "Category:Armor:Slot", as this is exactly what the category projects are trying to get rid of. Might I suggest "Category:<Slot> equipment"? -- 06:49, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

"Hands equipment"? Uh... does anyone (off the top of your head[s]) think of them as "hands" and not "gloves" (see initial issue). --Sky (talk | con | wh ) 07:42, 17 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't see a problem with it, myself. It's equipment for the hands, therefore hands equipment. If it was just "Category:Hands" then I would see a problem. -- 08:00, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

As requested I completed the conversation on Boots -> Armor:Feet, and stopping there until an agreement is made on the others... Naming the armor categories, in my opinion, should reflect its slot. However, if it was agreed to be change, they should all be change to be less confusing. In otherwords, changing it to Boots might have been fine if it was Armor:Boots, or if all the others were changed in that all of them loss the addition of "Armor:"

On a sidenote, while changing them, I noticed all the instances in the categories have "Instance:" in front of them, except the new Zul'Aman and Sunwell. 18:49, 17 December 2007 (UTC)


 * They do for now, it's an ongoing project. If you would like to help, see Wowpedia:Zone category project. --

Any news about future default skin changes?
I stumbled across Wowpedia:Default Skin Preview and was wondering if there is any news. -- Fandyllic  (talk · contr) 9:26 AM PST 17 Dec 2007


 * Development on Quartz is still proceeding and the new skin will probably be introduced with the wiki software update. --Pcj (T&bull;C) 20:40, 17 December 2007 (UTC)


 * In fact I can add a little more news to this ... Wikia are working on V3 of the Quartz skin which will appear much more akin to monobook (smaller and left-aligned sidebar) with dynamic/cascading navigation on the sidebar, along with the other benefits of Quartz. 14:26, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
 * There's a discussion topic here - http://inside.wikia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=141 - but the images were sent out on the [Wikia-l] mailing list (where most discussion is occuring) - http://www.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/wikia-l 14:41, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Problems with skins
I know we probably will never have all the skins available in preferences working well, but we can at least get rid of the obvious flaws.

Here are some of the problems I've see just previewing with the skin on Main Page:
 * In general, the Google search only appears on the WoWWiki skin.
 * Chick and MySkin skins:
 * No left sidebar and all the stuff regularly in the sidebar goes to the bottom.
 * Little book icon draws over user name link.
 * Classic skin:
 * "Selected article index" box is too big and right column text draws over right side boxes.
 * MonoBook skin:
 * Bottom of little book icon cut off to left of user name link.
 * Nostalgia skin:
 * No left sidebar and no navigation or popular link sections.
 * No user tools links.
 * Simple skin:
 * Ruler line under Main Page title draws over patch note blurb on the upper-right.
 * Little book icon draws over user name link.

Does anyone use any of the other skins? -- Fandyllic  (talk · contr) 2:42 PM PST 17 Dec 2007


 * all i know is it puts the lotion on the skin! 17:44, 17 december 2007


 * Now it places the lotion in the basket. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 4:39 PM PST 17 Dec 2007


 * Well, I know tidbits about this. The two currently available skins that are used to my knowledge are the default and monobook skins.  Kirkburn has been working on the monobook skin, and now uses it for all his work on the wiki.  These two skins are maintained while the others are pretty much ignored, right now.  I believe this is because with the new upcoming Wikia Quartz skin, those miscellaneous skins are expected to becoming obsolete.  The current default and monobook skins will of course still be around for all us old skoolers who don't fancy those new-fangled gadgets.  The monobook issue you mentioned should definitely be brought up to Kirkburn for sure, though.  --<span style="font-size: 0.85em; font-family: arial, 'comic sans'; padding: .2em .3em; border: 1px #504c50 solid;background-color: #000000"> DuTempete   talk  |  contr  02:27, 24 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Skins other than wowwiki and monobook should have been removed from the list long ago due to lack of support. In fact, they've never been supported :P As for the little book icon getting cut off - I'm not seeing this on my setup, but that's likely due to not using Safari. What's causing the cut off? Blank space?
 * The monobook and wowwiki skins needs updates to have all the new stuff introduced in new MediaWiki versions (e.g. hideable page titles, useful for the Main Page), but I wouldn't expect that to happen until the site is moved to 1.12a and Quartz. Latest news on that is that it'll be after the new year. Almost all Wikia sites are now on 1.12a, save for the bigger ones. 14:16, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
 * A few of those skins appear with the same issues on wikipedia. They are:
 * No left sidebar on Chick / MySkin
 * Nostalgia issues
 * The others could very easily be fixed, I imagine, by tweaking the appropriate MediaWiki skin css files and/or pulling said book icon out of Common.css. --Sky (talk | con | wh ) 23:17, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Downloading WoWwiki for non net access Laptop?
Hello all, Short story - long vacation, several months without net access - need a lot of WoW in any shape or form so i thought of downloading WoWwiki.com.

But can anyone steer me in the right direction, normal site downloaders either dont work or i'm doing something wrong. I get a lot of files that are anti site crawler text files or i get downloads from links not even remotely connected to wowwiki.com. (in other words the crawler goes off to google or ebay or something. It doesnt stick to wowwiki.com)

I looked at the wikipedia dumps but their way to big and to be honest i doubt wowwiki is integrated with the main english site.

Help me please!

edit: I've used a lot of different programs but the easiest i have found is: SurfOffline 2.0 If you however know of a program (and the settings i need to use) thats better by all means let me know :)

-- Forest2 22:53, 17 December 2007 (UTC)


 * WoWWiki is not affiliated with Wikipedia. However, it is run by Wikia which J. Wales also helped found. To try to answer your question, it would probably help if you said the specific SW you're trying to use to download the site. Also, WoWWiki is pretty huge. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 6:58 PM PST 17 Dec 2007
 * Not as huge as Wikipedia, naturally. --Pcj (T&bull;C) 16:07, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Something wrong with LBRS.jpg?
Is anyone else getting strange behavior when they look at :Image:LBRS.jpg? All I see is a blank white page. -- Fandyllic  (talk · contr) 5:59 PM PST 17 Dec 2007


 * Ditto here. -- 02:45, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes.-- 02:47, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm guessing it is happening because it is around 1.5mb, and 5,000px by 1463px. 08:19, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Shrank it down massively, the page is now viewable. 08:35, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Any way someone can put some time into chopping up that image? Having it in full size, but in parts would make it easier to read. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 11:57 AM PST 18 Dec 2007

My Page Format
The posts on my page are all one big line that you have to scroll to see. Please, how do I make it in colomns!!! Thanks

-- Your source, Vintalation 22:40, 19 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Stop indenting. To move text over use colons.-- 22:41, 19 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Please see some formatting tips on your (Vintalation's) talk page. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 5:51 PM PST 19 Dec 2007

Tier set boilerplate change
I had an idea to add more images with the gallery template, but this must be discussed as the tier sets are very uniformly boilerplated (Which is good). See Talk:Battlegear of Might.-- 19:57, 22 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, regardless of if I thought of it, it is catching on.-- 21:53, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

The Sky2042 is falling
... to the pit of hell that is being an administrator! Welcome him and torture him if he gets anything wrong ;) 12:36, 23 December 2007 (UTC)


 * 2042 bottles of Sky on the wall, 2042 bottles of Sky. Take one down, pass it around, 2041 bottles of Sky on the wall.  Let's see how long it takes us to use him up dry.  --<span style="font-size: 0.85em; font-family: arial, 'comic sans'; padding: .2em .3em; border: 1px #504c50 solid;background-color: #000000"> DuTempete   talk  |  contr  12:41, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah. I'm going to be falling into bed shortly. Thanks to the mighty Kirkbrrrr (and any others who welcome / pass me around / pull me into hell in the near future) --Sky (talk | con | wh ) 12:44, 23 December 2007 (UTC)


 * See, i'm not crazy! I just didn't realize i can see into the future :p Grats Sky, you'll be an asset to the wiki, especially with keeping it clean :) -- <li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_zeal.png|User:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_talk.png|User talk:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_contribs.png|Special:Contributions/Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_end.png|User:Zeal </li></ul> 17:27, 23 December 2007 (UTC)


 * About time! Congrats! --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 11:01 AM PST 23 Dec 2007


 * Congratz.Baggins 19:03, 23 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Congrats! -- 19:04, 23 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Gratz sky 19:10, 23 December 2007 (UTC)


 * IT IS ABOUT TIME HE WAS ONE! YAY! :) -- 22:35, 23 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Hip hip! And aye, about time. *salutes* -- 08:14, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * /cheer! -- 08:35, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Tooltip / Item Pages update
Some of the changes currently displayed in Template talk:Tooltip/Dev would require a bot pass over all item pages. Now is a good time to take a look at the proposed changes; if there aren't any real issues, we can begin updating the item pages to match the template changes - that bot run would also be a good time to apply any automatic changes that may be applicable to all item pages - such as the "droped" typo fix, deprecating Foxbot's qual-color-uncommon usage, and anything else people can think of before then (category updates?). Either way - take a look at the change note, think of whether there are any automatic changes that you could want made to the item pages at the same time, and post a note if anything comes up.

Updating the item pages is a relatively large operation - there are just under 20k item pages; the update would take several hours, during which some item pages may display less information (or have slightly off formatting, depending on whether the template or the item pages are updated first) than they usually do. -- Starlightblunder 15:16, 23 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Mak dem purdy!
 * Would help if you put up an example (item page, linking from page) to show how it all works together and what the changes actually mean. -- <li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_zeal.png|User:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_talk.png|User talk:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_contribs.png|Special:Contributions/Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_end.png|User:Zeal </li></ul> 17:35, 23 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Changing the cats to be in-line with WP:CAT (which says, lower case unless it is a proper noun) for the majority of Categories and Items in Category:Items would be nice. --Sky (talk | con | wh ) 19:36, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Don't Panic. Bots are working on submitting the changes; there may be minor formatting issues meanwhile, as the jobqueue seems to have malfunctioned and decided to apply the template change now. Normality returns in several hours. -- Starlightblunder 23:42, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Deleting a Fanfic
How exactly do you delete fanfic pages? I've made several errors and have tried to fix them but it just keeps getting worse. I want to just erase the pages and start over. -- Aroka 15:52, 23 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Mark them with the speedydelete tag and just make a new one (assuming the name is different). What is the problem page specifically? --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 11:06 AM PST 23 Dec 2007


 * You could simply blank the page(if you still want to use the same name), or add sd. 19:08, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
 * If there's no issue with the title of the page, I would definitely lend my weight to using the same page. --Sky (talk | con | wh ) 02:36, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Moving
Recently a user made a fan fic pge without his name and "/" before it. That's okay everyone new does it, but when I tried to help him by moving it, it said I could be permanently banned and wouldn't allow to move it. Is there a new thing that I have to do so I can move pages all of a sudden? <span style="padding:0px; margin-left:0px; font-size:85%;"> Mr.X8  <font color="#DEB887" title="If you're going to bother me, you better have a good reason...">Talk <font color="#000000" title="Don't think of it as spam, think of it as me spreading my teachings">Contribs  02:45, 24 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Could you be more specific?-- 02:56, 24 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Only if you abuse the move feature will you get banned for using it. 03:04, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Well User:Dunnsworth made a character page. I tried to move it, it said something like what Zurr said, if you abuse it, you'll get banned, blah, blah. It still wouldn't let me go through with the kove however. <span style="padding:0px; margin-left:0px; font-size:85%;"> Mr.X8  <font color="#DEB887" title="If you're going to bother me, you better have a good reason...">Talk <font color="#000000" title="Don't think of it as spam, think of it as me spreading my teachings">Contribs  03:53, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh and the page was Lady Mary Dunnsworth <span style="padding:0px; margin-left:0px; font-size:85%;"> Mr.X8  <font color="#DEB887" title="If you're going to bother me, you better have a good reason...">Talk <font color="#000000" title="Don't think of it as spam, think of it as me spreading my teachings">Contribs  03:57, 24 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Don't move it, create the correct link, copy paste everything, tell Dunn whats up, and mark the old page with a SD. I'd think it would be easy that way too. 03:59, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Related note, I just added some more to the move page information, should help make it clearer. :) 12:42, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Merging T:Infobox Warcraft character and Npcbox
I'd like to propose a merger of two templates which relate to the same thing, or nearly the same thing: T:Infobox Warcraft character and Npcbox. Obviously, Npcbox would have to be expanded slightly to accommodate some of the lore box's other fields, but I feel that the Infobox is lacking in regards to gameplay information. -- 19:00, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it would also be prudent to merge T:Mobbox as well, preferably into npcbox. --Sky (talk | con | wh ) 20:19, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Mobbox already uses npcbox, but if you mean to change all the mob articles to use npcbox, go ahead. :P -- 20:21, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I also noticed the problem with T:Infobox Warcraft character not supporting in-game info, specifically with the Rexxar article. My solution was to add an npcbox farther down the page, but this seems sub-optimal. Hopefully a merging of the two templates will allow for the use of the dark gray background color and the fancy edging that distinguishes T:Infobox Warcraft character. However, if we merge the two into npcbox, I'd like to see the city= parameter deprecated in favor of something else, like repfaction=, since "city" is poorly descriptive of what is actually labelled "Faction" in the template output. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 2:26 PM PST 27 Dec 2007
 * I really prefer the more standardized look of npcbox - that was one of my personal problems with the Infobox. And using Wowbox to generate the border is bad coding practice. -- 00:27, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The only reason for keeping them separate is because most NPCs don't have enough lore to fill the fields on the lore box, and there are a number of lore characters who don't fit the NPC box. Not a reason, so if you can pull this off, I think it would probably make things easier. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 01:56, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, pretty much all fields are optional anyway. -- 02:17, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I personally don't like the way it looks on lore char pages, but this is more uniform. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 03:36, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The change is complete on all pages in the main namespace. -- 17:48, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Why are we doing this? People like Broll Bearmantle and Modimus Anvilmar aren't NPCs at all because they're not in WoW, only in lore (possibly Warcraft but I don't play any of them so I don't know). <span style="padding:0px; margin-left:0px; font-size:85%;"> Mr.X8  <font color="#DEB887" title="If you're going to bother me, you better have a good reason...">Talk <font color="#000000" title="Don't think of it as spam, think of it as me spreading my teachings">Contribs  18:16, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Most of the information in the infobox was replicated in npcbox, and most of the pages which used infobox are actually about WoW characters. Using one template for all characters makes it easier to maintain a uniform look for the wiki. -- 18:32, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Well things like relatives and character classes are missing, those are important. <span style="padding:0px; margin-left:0px; font-size:85%;"> Mr.X8  <font color="#DEB887" title="If you're going to bother me, you better have a good reason...">Talk <font color="#000000" title="Don't think of it as spam, think of it as me spreading my teachings">Contribs  18:36, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * They are not missing. I added them yesterday. Npcbox takes the same parameters the infobox did. -- 18:37, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * So are we to continue using mobbox for mobs or switch to using npcbox for them? 19:27, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * npcbox, I'd say. -- 19:33, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps a "not in WoW" flag, or "found in" field would be useful? 19:50, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Added a "source" field. -- 21:04, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Editing Tables
I'm a total wiki noob. I wanted to add some recipes that were missing from some of the profession tables. I read the help pages, but couldn't find anything on editing an existing table. Any time I tried to edit the page, I created a new table below the existing one.

Can you even edit an existing table? Or do you just have to notify the table's creator of the missing info?

-- Mordsith 21:51, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah our help pages need some help themselves when it comes to some advanced topics. What specific pages do you want to update?
 * I'll give you a quick tutorial here, assuming the pages you need to update use standard wiki tables.


 * Don't put any spaces at the beginning of a line.
 * The basic and recommended wiki table markup usage is above. As expected, there are variants which I will show some below.


 * Some variants of cell markup:


 * I hope that helps. I used tables for the tutorial, of course! --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 11:14 AM PST 31 Dec 2007


 * Thanks a bunch!! I'll look that over. I originally signed up for an account here when I noticed some enchanting recipes missing from the table. But if I can figure this out, I'd love to keep all of the profession tables up to date.  I'll try to use your tutorial and see if that answers my questions. Mordsith 19:20, 31 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I just figured out my fundamental problem - the table I was trying to edit was "transcluded". So I wasn't actually editing the table itself, but the page that referred to the table.  I think I should be able to figure out how to add the information now that I found out how to get into the table itself.  Thanks again! -- Mordsith 19:33, 31 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Is there a way to have the table automatically alternate row shading? When I add a row to an existing table, I then have to go through it line by line to add or remove class="alt".  Just wondering if there's an easier way. -  18:49, 1 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately not (yet). It will be possible as browsers get updated to newer CSS specifications. 22:35, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Call for help: Scepter of the Shifting Sands
I've more or less finished The Scepter of the Shifting Sands quest chain, which covers all of the quests involved in the creation of The Scepter of the Shifting Sands, but I've run in to a problem:

None of the database sites make mention of any of the conclusion quests other than and. There used to be some guild websites with write-ups on the quests but I can't seem to find links to them any more.

The conclusion of the quest chain starts at after finishing the Blue Scepter Shard, Green Scepter Shard and Red Scepter Shard forks. Other than that, and the name of the conclusion quests (linked above), I have no information, which is incredibly annoying in this day and age. Anyone have any ideas? -- k _d3 07:33, 31 December 2007 (UTC)


 * allakhazam.com has some information on both those quests...not much though. I tried googling them, but came up with nothing, I guess with the quest rarely done (and only once per server) it would be hard to get info about it. 08:45, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Data mining clarification needed
See Image talk:MiniOrca.png for a start. -- Fandyllic  (talk · contr) 3:40 PM PST 2 Jan 2008


 * Okay, Image:MiniOrca.png is probably an violation and will likely get removed soon (even if Kirkburn uploaded it), but also please look at Image:War.png (talk) which I tagged as a violation. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 5:42 PM PST 2 Jan 2008


 * Aye, the former should go (*embarassed*), but the latter seems okay. 03:12, 3 January 2008 (UTC)