Talk:Retcon speculation

Dealing with retcons
In other articles, I've generally been treating the retconned version as the "true" version, and linking to this page if it was a significant, confusing (e.g. Stormwind and Azeroth), or controversial (e.g. Cenarius' mother) change.

I was trying to think of other things that could be added to this page. I believe there was a few problems with the timeline regarding Beyond the Dark Portal and Day of the Dragon; however they clarified that might qualify as a Retcon. The timelines around the opening of the Dark Portal, and the end of the First War, also strike me as areas that never quite sat right.
 * --Aeleas 01:21, 28 Oct 2005 (EDT)

About this page.
Is it alright to add RetCons that aren't yet proven if there is good evidence? For example, things that were changed from one game to the next, but still lacking an official "correct" version?

--Dreyfuss of Durotan 14:44, 30 Jan 2006 (EST)


 * Adding unsupported retcons is okay, but you should mention something to that effect in the page. --Fandyllic 3:21 PM HST 8 MAY 2006

Garona
"In later sources, she is described as being half orc and half draenei."

The article says that, but besides a few theories by Caydiem on the forums what other source says that Garona was "Half-Draeni"?

I'm pretty sure the RPG doesn't state Garona to be half-draeni. Metzen himself has decided to say "No comment" on the issue. I don't think any of the novels have altered the issueBaggins 17:08, 9 April 2006 (EDT)

Last Guardian says she's half Draenei. They go out of the way to explain that she's partly from another race on the horde's home planet and is thus an outcast. I think folks are confused because most Draenei seen in game are mutant ones whom were exposed to the portal's energies when it collapsed and are burned. They are suppose to be even more human like than Orcs. (unsigned comment by User:Elfey)


 * The Last Guardian doesn't say she is half draenei. In it, she says that when an orc looks at her, he will see only her "human parts."  Medivh says that her homeland must have had "humans or near-humans."  The This may indeed refer to draenei, but that's conjecture.--Aeleas 12:55, 28 April 2006 (EDT)


 * The "Near-Human" comment doesn't necessarily mean "draeni" either, it could refer to some other race we haven't yet seen. Burning Crusade is supposed to establish all sorts of new races on Outland. All we know is Metzen is tight lipped on the issue and he may have something planned that goes beyond any previous conceived ideas.Baggins 15:13, 8 May 2006 (EDT)

If Garona was born on Draenor than wouldn't that mean that she is at least 50 years old be the time of her assasination of Llane? Since the war lasted for 10 years and the Orks were on Azeroth for at least 40 years before that.--The last Alterac (talk) 00:05, March 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * That's the part that was retconned, and the reason why she's now half-draenei instead of half-human. In the new timeline (established in Warcraft 3), the First War lasted about a year, and the orcs arrived on Azeroth a matter of months before that. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 00:24, March 12, 2010 (UTC)

Mistakes with Grom Hellscream's, Mannoroth's, and Magtheridon's Deaths
Does this really belong on the retcon page? Those were just errors that the developers of the WoW RPG have admitted to. So it's in no way a retcon but a mistake some author made. I agree though that it probably can't hurt to include that information somewhere, especially for people who read the WoW RPG and then go like "WTF?!? Thrall killed Grom?!?" --Foogray 15:21, 13 April 2006 (EDT)

I thought it was better to put it in this section, then put it in Grom's Manneroth, Illidan, or Magther's sections... At least it shows it was a mistake, and that editors came up with "fixes" to explain them away.Baggins 15:51, 13 April 2006 (EDT)


 * the Swamp of Sorrows was the Swamps of Sorrow.

Actually it was also known as Swamp of Sorrows in Warcraft 1, in the game's manual...

Grom's Death
I'm adding some updated info for historical context. While there have been claims that World of Warcraft RPG corebook stated that Thrall killed Grom, I cannot find that mentioned in my edition of the book (I do not know if there has been more than one edition of the book released). But here are the quotes that people may have interpreted as Thrall killing Grom, neither of make that claim explicetly, and thus may have been misinterpretation of information. However enough people complained to White Wolf, and White Wolf apologized whatever the case.
 * Having destroyed the legacy of Grom Hellscream by bringing the orcs out of the depths of demon worship and servitude to unseen powers, Thrall rules the Horde in Kalimdor with wisdom and temperance.


 * Tales have already elevated this hero into living-legend status, as he freed the orcs from the Alliance camps, took them west, liberated them from Grom Hellscream’s demonic influence,

Again I do not know if I overlooked any other quotes, or if Blizzard discreetly fixed the error in later printings but neither of these quotes specifically or implicitly state that "Thrall killed Grom", just that he brought them out of his demonic influence, an obvious reference to when Grom had turned many orcs into chaos orcs. This may have been a case where the fans interpreted something outside of what it actually said, and took it it too far with their emails and insults to the authors, forcing them to apologize for something they didn't need to apologize for.

However, if anyone has an edition that states directly that "Thrall killed Grom", please add the quotes and page numbers to this discussion, so people have a clear idea what people were originally complaining about.

On an interesting related note to the perceived error, if it originally existed in the work, there is a interview on Blizzplanet that implies the blame of the error may have been introduced by Bob Fitch who is both a Blizzard employee and writer for the Warcraft RPG, and who may have been the one who wrote those sections.

Adam Loyd an author for White Wolf also claimed on White Wolf forums;
 * As for Grom, we apologize. One of our writers misunderstood a manuscript and thought that Grom was killed by Thrall, since you fight him as an enemy in the last Orc scenario in Warcraft Baggins 21:53, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

However, unless there really was some kind of quiet fix of the quotes during reprints, it would seem that Adam Loyd and others had just chose to apologize to irate and fanatical fcans, even if the book may never have actually stated "Thrall killed Grom", both having come up with whatever excuse they could on the issue.Baggins 22:25, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * You are indeed missing the relevant quote from the WoW RPG. It's on page 12 in the Night Elf and Orc paragraph. I quote:
 * "In the matter of Hellscream, the orc was controlled by demonic influence when he battled Cenarius, and was slain by Thrall himself, so the Horde took care of that problem."
 * There you have it. The book really says that Thrall killed Hellscream which is why the writers apologized. --Foogray 18:33, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Mannoroth's death
I'm also adding background information on this for anyone interested. Readers were upset over a quote they claimed said Illidan killed Mannoroth. The exact quote said this;


 * Illidan slays the demon responsible for corrupting Hellscream and his orcs, but is transformed into a demon in the process.

Amusingly after fans had claimed that the book said "Illidan had killed Mannoroth", the designers thinking the quote had specifically said Illidan had killed Mannoroth;

According to Adam Loyd one of the authors of the book;
 * Illidan didn't die on the Frozen Throne. There is even a couple missing sound bytes you can find in the World Editor where Arthas informs Illidan that he's not worth killing, and to flee to Outland to never return. Also, any references to Illidan killing Mannoroth should be turned to Magtheridon. Demon names all look the same, especially with pit lords

This obviously doesn't work as the previous book didn't mention Mannoroth's name, and it was fairly specific to mention a demon that had corrupted Hellscream and his orcs. From all evidence we have, the only demon that had corrupted hellscream was Mannoroth, and not Magtheridon.Baggins 22:13, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Orc warlocks
I don't think this really qualifies as a retcon. We saw that there were still practicing warlocks in the Frozen Throne orc campaign, and I don't think it was ever stated the Thrall was successful in getting rid of every last warlock.--Aeleas 11:21, 26 September 2006 (EDT)


 * I don't it it qualifies either - it's not as if warlocks are welcomed with open arms in Orgrimmar. -- Kirkburn  (talk) 11:34, 26 September 2006 (EDT)

War of the Ancients
Not at all !! It's completely false ! The majority of the events in Warcraft 3 and WoW match the original timeline and not the altered one ! The lone exception is the fact that we haven't seen much of Hakkar the Houndmaster in the current games, but that's all !-- Kirochi (talk) 09:30, 27 September 2006 (EDT)


 * That's what it says, isn't it? -- Kirkburn  (talk) 11:50, 27 September 2006 (EDT)


 * In some way yes, but imo it implies that the original timeline exists only in the lore and not among the ingame content.-- Kirochi (talk) 13:05, 27 September 2006 (EDT)


 * The only thing that differentiates with out a decent explination in WoW from WarCraft I And II is the loaction of the swamp of sorrows to the Blast Land (previously the Black Morass). In the first two games the swamp of sorrows was south of the Black Morass. In WoW the the Swamp of Sorrows is North of the Black Morass.

Speculation
I've created a new article at Retcon speculation, and moved several sections there. I think this article is long and complex enough to warrant a completely separate article for speculation, otherwise Speculation will occur about a dozen times. The criteria I've set out in the intro here is that, for inclusion in this article, an apparent discrepancy must describe two clearly conflicting sources. Official statements that reconcile the apparent discrepancy are also included. All alleged retcons that aren't clear contradictions between two source (for example, it was not definitively stated that Kael led absolutely all high/blood elves in The Frozen Throne), and all theories for reconciling apparent discrepancies are in Retcon speculation, where they are clearly flagged as unofficial.--Aeleas 14:05, 14 January 2007 (EST)

Certain problem with flagging everything as unofficial as some of the refrences are infact official.Baggins 14:12, 14 January 2007 (EST)


 * If you could be more specific, I could address your specific concerns better. The sections I moved which were cited appeared to me to be theories supported by citations, as all good speculation should be, but theories nonetheless.--Aeleas 14:15, 14 January 2007 (EST)


 * Let's take high elf druidism. If its refrenced in new sources, it is no longer a retcon. Those quotes are not speculation, nor are they theories. It is refrence to the fact that there is a form of high elf druidism.


 * For that matter the assumption that there was a retcon because of a lack of mention of high elf druids previously was speculation. However material refrencing the existence of high elf druids exists now, pointing out the previous assumption was wrong in the first place.Baggins 14:26, 14 January 2007 (EST)


 * That's exactly why I moved it; it was speculation that there was any discrepancy to begin with.--Aeleas 14:35, 14 January 2007 (EST)


 * Well I suggest a special kind of speculation heading for it then. Cause the current one and what you said in your above post implies that all that material is unofficial.Baggins 14:38, 14 January 2007 (EST)


 * Not really, simply means it's written with speculation in mind, doesn't invalidate the sources used as the basis for the speculation. -- Zeal  talk   contr  web 14:40, 14 January 2007 (EST)


 * What I'm saying is there needs to be a clearer explanation how something is speculation, if the section mainly refrences specific quotes. Speculation template for example might point out that its unofficial speculation based on non-official ideas or official refrences. I've added a disclaimer and explanation to the high elven druid section to point out that it was an assumption in the first place that high elven druids didn't exist as another way.Baggins 14:47, 14 January 2007 (EST)


 * My default expectation for a speculation section is that it will contain extensive references to official lore, in support of the position it advances. I think it's generally clear from the phrasing and citation what is theory and what is official.--Aeleas 15:09, 14 January 2007 (EST)

Purpose
Can we get this page back to what it should be, an explanation of retcons in the context of warcraft (possibly with an explanation on, or link to an article for, the Bookkeepers stance on retcons), not a list of all possible retcons in existance. These retcons need to be added and explained in their relevent articles, or if too all encompassing and large (hardly) their own articles, not here. -- Zeal  talk   contr  web 14:23, 14 January 2007 (EST)


 * Your conception of what this page should be would involve revising a policy, WW:LORE, which says to discuss the current version of lore only in the articles, and describe retcons here. So further discussion in that direction should probably take place there.
 * Where the conflict hasn't been clearly resolved, which would include I think Garona's parentage and Stormwind/Azeroth on the current page, it does say to put it directly in the article. I think, in the interest of both completeness of this list and avoiding repetition, we could remove those sections, but keep a link to the main article.--Aeleas 14:40, 14 January 2007 (EST)


 * The more i learn each day.. the more i hate the wiki.. -_- -- Zeal  talk   contr  web 14:44, 14 January 2007 (EST)


 * "Hell is other people."--Aeleas 14:49, 14 January 2007 (EST)


 * Policies can be changed, it's not hard. Minor changes like those hardly even need a vote - just decide how it needs to be changed, and it will be done if reasonable. This ain't wikipedia! :) 15:12, 14 January 2007 (EST)

On Magtheridon
Nowhere in Warcraft III did it every say he died. Sure, you had to kill him to win the mission, but he's alive in the ending cinematic to the mission. --DerSquirrel 21:47, 11 February 2007 (EST)

Retcons I've identified
I made up a list of retcons, but I wanted to discuss them here to make sure that they fit the standards of the article. They also probably need to be phrased differently to match the other entries in the article.

In the manual for Beyond the Dark Portal, Uther Lightbringer is stated to have led the Alliance at the final battle of the second war. In the Warcraft III manual and every source afterwards, Turalyon is said to have led the battle.

In the Warcraft II manual, it is said that Gilneas did not join the Alliance. But in the Beyond the Dark Portal manual it claims that Gilneas left the Alliance after Terenas refused to have the orcs exterminated. In day of the Dragon, the Kirin Tor states that Gilneas did not join the Alliance until the orcs attacked its borders. The Alliance Player's Guide mentions that Gilneas never fully supported the Alliance, and only offered token aid.

In the manual for Beyond the Dark Portal, the Burning Blade clan is said to have been destroyed at the final battle at the Portal. In the Warcraft III manual, the Horde's blademasters are said to consist of old members of the Burning Blade clan. In Cycle of Hatred, it's said that none of the demon loving clan remains.

In the Horde's Player's guide, the Orcs are said to communicate with their ancestors. In Rise of the Horde, Thrall says that despite the orcs reconnection to shamanism, the ancestors have yet to speak to them. Note: There are probably numerous other passages that say the orcs communicate with their ancestors, but the Spirit Champion page is the only one I can think of off the top of my head.

In The Well of Eternity, it's stated that no one has ever recorded a successful human-elven birth. In the RPG books, half elves are found throughout Azeroth. --Austin P 13:47, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Two others I remembered are Mannoroth's presence at the War of the Ancients (Original timeline, he fought Cenarius and killed Agamaggan, but he's shown to have not engaged in battle in the trilogy) and the redesign of the Doomhammer. --Austin P 02:02, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * First off I'd be careful in stating something is a retcon if its only a mistake, authorial disagreement, in-universe belief or hyperbole. None of which are retcons necessarily. Is something is questonable but not 100% known to be a retcon, Retcon speculation is a better article to put it into.


 * Here is a few of my thoughts, not going to say I know everything about them, I haven't had the time to research each of them in full form;
 * Perhaps it just means Uther was at the final battle and had troops under him. Uther could have been joint leading with Turalyon during the final battle. Lack of mention in later sources isn't necessarily a retcon. In any case, Shadows and Light also specifically states he was there during the final battle along with several other heroes. This should probably go into Retcon speculation article instead.


 * Warcraft II manual actually takes place before the Second War begins, it could have been referring to the initial signing of the Alliance, Gilneas may not have fully signed in early on, but joined later (Tides of Darkness novel may have altered the story however). Lands of Conflict that Gilneas never really supported the war. This is a case of different interprations of the information I think, rather than a retcon. Probably should go into Retcon speculation.


 * Destroyed is not an absolute, the clan could have been destroyed but still had members. Note the concept of hyperbole, it allows for exaggerations that shouldn't be taken literal. Burning Blade still exists in some form however, so apparently was rebuilt.


 * The Far Seer's ability to predict the future is said to come from "spirits", HPG and ROTH were written at the same time, so this may be a case where one hand didn't know what the other hand was doing, or Thrall was using hyperbole or personal opinion. As a side note I think there are references to ancestral contact and worship within WoW itself, iirc.Baggins 03:54, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * About the half-elves… Ya that one is weird. In the RPG printed before and after WOTA trilogy, they are said to be fairly common. In the Sunwell Manga trilogy, it appears they are common enough that blood elves knew what one looked like, plus you have Arator too. This isn't a retcon by the author perse, but probably just an authorial mistake in the WOTA trilogy and poetic writing (since nothing was actually retconned).


 * It should also be noted that these articles really shouldn't be used to chronicle every single potential or perceived retcon just major ones.Baggins 03:54, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I understand. In many cases it's difficult, if not impossible, to tell the difference between an intentional retcon and an error. Then we bring in things like flavor lore and gameplay mechanics and things get really screwy, which is why I wanted to ask before posting anything.

BTW, I recently read Tides of Darkness, and Gilneas is shown to join the Alliance at the same time everyone else did. Another thing is that the Wildhammer Dwarves joined the Alliance when they came to their aid after the Orcs attacked the Hinterlands, and it had nothing to do with the High Elves. But my guess is that both of those were more for space reasons, instead of errors or retcons. The book actually has an amazing level of continuity. --Austin P 13:09, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Ya, I'm thinking that the small band of elves mentioned in many other sources (including in World of Warcraft itself) as having joined the Alliance before the main bulk did, were probably left out for space reasons, and possibly seen as irrelevent to the main series of events being told in the novel.Baggins 17:42, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Baggins, I read the BTDP manual, and in regards to Uther it says that the Burning Blade was destroyed by troops under his command. So your assessment is probably correct. --Austin P 18:50, 9 September 2007 (UTC)


 * On a related note Tides of Darkness states that Greymane and Perenolde were less sincere about joining the Alliance, than the other kings.Baggins 23:59, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

This isn't exactly a retcon, but it's something I've noticed. There seems to be some conflicts between lore and games as to the demons true strength. In the WC3 manual, it says that Doomguards are nearly immune to magic and can defeat armies with their strength alone, but in the WotA trilogy they're as vulnerable to magic as everything else, and don't necessarily need that many stabbin's to die. I also found it odd that Korialstraz was able to kill an Infernal by breathing on it. I know the Infernal's fire is natural fire, it just doesn't seem like they should be destroyed by heat, know what I mean?

The Vault also contains demons and the like, and are only kept because Stormwind doesn't have the means to kill them easily, but most other lore seems to indicate that if they're significantly bound, then killing them shouldn't be too hard. Even Archimonde's flesh gave way to cold steel in The Sundering. --Austin P 13:44, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I think those could be accidental retcons. More along the line of the author made mistakes that are inconsistent with what's found in the Warcraft games. It happens fairly often in WTA, but Chris Metzen declared it should be canon. --- Zexx 18:00, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Illidan's Bandanna
I don't think this is necessarily a retcon. I mean Illidan [b]has[/b] been jailed for 10,0000 years... One would assume at that time the cloth he wears over his eyes would grow dark with sweat, blood, age, etc. The cloth even surviving for that long is an implausible feat, but if we are to assume the material is magical in nature and it indeed is the same bandanna, it's not a leap of faith to assume time took its toll. --- Zexx 05:02, 11 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Agrees.Baggins 16:29, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Warcraft II Stromgarde and Grim Batol
Did the alliance ever managed to destroy Grim Batol, and did the horde ever destroy Stromgarde? I'm not really sure if they did or not, but in the articles for both the cities it doesn't mention anything about them being destroyed during the second war, if they wern't, someone should probably add that to the retcons for Warcraft II. --- XellKhaar 08:11, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
 * That's not really so much of a retcon; there were two entirely separate campaigns in Warcraft 2 with mutually exclusive events. The only options were to pick one or the other or combine elements of the two, and so they did the latter. -- Dark T Zeratul 11:05, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah but they have Quel'thalas and Lordaeron on there as not being destroyed, I think we should at least mention Stromgarde and Grim Batol. -- XellKhaar 23:57, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Warcraft II Expansion Orc Campaign
Okay what about the orc campaign of Warcraft II: Beyond the Dark Portal. According to that the orcs destroy New Stormwind and Kul Tiras? Is that canon? Because New Stormwind is the modern Stormwind and it's very much not destroyed, and Kul Tiras as far as I know isn't destroyed either since Admiral Proudmoore is in Warcraft 3. --XellKhaar 07:03, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

A lot of the pre-Warcraft 3 stuff is only partially canon. For example, the orcs gain the power of the the rune stone to create Ogre-Magi, but the humans ultimately win the war by destroying the Dark Portal. Essentially you can say that 50% of the campaign stuff on the human side is lore and 50% of the orc side is lore. Which parts are is primarily down to what you read/see within RoC/FT as affecting future events(i.e. Ner'zhul opening the portals and causing Draenor to be ripped apart). As far as Stormwind and Kul'Tiras are concerned, that's purely if you were playing through the Orc campaign. It has no relevance to the current situation. Scum of the Earth, COME ON! (talk) 02:40, March 12, 2010 (UTC)

Warcraft II: Stromgarde, Grim Batol, Dun Algaz
After reading Day of the Dragon I am almost positive that none of the places above fell during Warcraft II, so I am adding them to the Warcraft II retcon section. My reasons for doing this are because in Day of the Dragon, which takes place after Warcraft II, Khaz Modan was still controlled by the Horde dispite the war being pretty much over, the dragonmaw clan still controlled Grim Batol and Dun Algaz so it was obviously not destroyed by the alliance. --Xell Khaar 06:00, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Northshrire Abbey was attacked by Humans in the First War?
Well this part in the article: "Northshire Abbey was not attacked by a band of warriors that had been convinced by enemy agents to fight against the crown (human campaign)."

How do we know that this didn't happen??? maybe they were mercenaries or something, or just like Perenolde that joined with the enemy knowing they couldn't defeat the Horde. What I think is that this is possible to have happened as it hasn't been contradicted in other sources, maybe they were all killed by the defenders of stormwind and that's the reason they aren't present in the second war. I will put it in the section "Other events are indeterminate, not conflicting with any other accounts, but also not being referred to again" until someone have a contradicting source Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 03:36, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Well in the Orc Campaign of Warcraft I, and in the lore I have read so far, it says that the Horde attacked and destroyed Northshire Abbey. I don't think anyone really helped the Horde because in the Orc mission when you attack Northshire Abbey they even have Brigands, who I have read are not that nice to other Humans, fighting against the Horde. It is only in the Human mission that you fight other Humans. Then again, maybe somewhere someone can find something about some group of Humans during the First War helping the Horde.    Rolandius [[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]] ( talk  -  contr ) 03:48, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Griselda
To quote this retcon page - "Blackhand's daughter Griselda was killed in the Deadmines (orc campaign). Confirmed in Rise of the Horde." Can someone point out to me where that is even close to confirmed in Rise of the Horde? I just finished reading it again, and she's A) Only mentioned twice; once as the offspring as Blackhand, and once when denied the ability to drink the demon blood. Aside from a small scout party, there is nothing that even takes place on the other side of the portal, so how exactly did it become confirmed that she died in Deadmines? 18:35, 14 August 2008 (UTC)


 * That is a darned good question. The nearest I can figure is that her existance and dissatisfaction with her father is confirmed, thus the incident in the Dead Mines would be confirmed by extension. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 19:05, 14 August 2008 (UTC)