Talk:Blood elf/Archive3

The Blood Elves Motives
I have heard alot of that these Blood Elves are loyal Kael' Thus and that they always try to get themselves united. But, why would the Former High Elves who had killed many orcs and hated them for so long, want to join the Horde??? I have a theory. The History of the Orcs is that Kil' jeaden took over the Orcs by pouring Mogthedorians Blood into a well, or something like that. Over 1,000 years later, the Blood Elves swore loyalty to Illidan, thus swearing Loyalty to Kil' jeaden. So Kil' jeadan obvioussly wanted to keep an eye on his former subjects (not only Orcs but the Forsaken that were formerly Scourge that he created) by uniting some Elves that had no idea that they joined the Burning Crusade. So obviously some high ranking Blood Elf must know of Kil' jeadans plan. Who believes it?


 * Hmm, sounds like a good theory, but I'm pretty sure that's not why; it has already been explained why the blood elves joined. And it's not that much of a stretch; in warcraft iii, at the end, the humans, aided by high elves, joined forces with the horde and night elves.  The blood elves know that the orcs they have allied with have changed greatly since the second war, losing the bloodthirst that Mannoroth's blood gave them. PS This would go in the analysis section, I believe. --Blackmorsel


 * The blood elves on azeroth (and now traveling to durotar as a part of the horde) are loyal to Kael only as long as they know that Kael is on their side. When they learn otherwise, they, like all other horde and alliance, turn against him and his as they work for the legion.

The REAL reason has very little to do with Magtheridon's blood (it was actually Mannoroth the Destroyer, not Magtheridon), which only happened roughly 75-80 years ago. Perhaps slightly more (it was a few hundred years before retcons. The orcs back then, in the Old Horde, were not the orcs they are today...they were more like demons, or puppets on strings commanded by such (except the council, who did it knowingly). the elves hated them, and hated the trolls more due to the war and that they joined the horde. however, the high elves, now mostly blood elves, DO realize that they never once fought the darkspear trolls, and the darkspear trolls are relatively peaceful overall, unless you mess with them (the elves fought the amani trolls, and perhaps a few ice trolls now and then, but never any of the gurubashi tribes, which the darkspear, the horde trolls, are a sept of). they also realize that the orcs in the New Horde are not the same orcs that were Old Horde, or Fel Horde...they hold grudges, but it is beneficial to both sides. It is like france siding with protestants in the 30 years war in order to defeat the hapsburg dynasty...the hapsburgs were a larger threat, and tensions were put aside with the protestants and catholics in order for their "greater good".--Haddon 20:09, 26 February 2007 (EST)

Vandalism
It's not fun to come back to an article and find it's been destroyed by vandalism. If it occurs, revert it back to how it was before using the history tab! Don't attempt to 'fix' it by editing what was changed, as this can just cause futher problems when I try to find out what was lost and whether it's still on the page :/ The last bit of vandalism completely messed up the page ... Thanks! :) -- Kirkburn  (talk) 15:21, 21 October 2006 (EDT)

Extra margins?
Is there a compelling reason for the 3% left margin at the beginning of each section? 16:01, 27 October 2006 (EDT)


 * Yes. Readability. :) -- Kirkburn  (talk) 16:15, 27 October 2006 (EDT)


 * It seems out of place, considering that no other articles have this margin. I took a look at the article without the margin and it doesn't seem to add or reduce readability all that much, but that's just my opinion. If it's generally agreed that it needs it, definitely keep it, but I haven't seen any discussion on the issue. If not, I'd say chuck it, to keep it more standard. 17:10, 27 October 2006 (EDT)


 * It's generally added to articles which are long and have many many sections. I personally would add it to more articles if I had the time. -- Kirkburn  (talk) 17:43, 27 October 2006 (EDT)


 * I dunno. Somehow it looks ugly to me, kind of like a tacked-on way of making blocks of text more readable where you could probably just cut down on the wording or fragment the paragraphs a bit. But that's me. If it's general policy, should we create a category for increasing readability of larger articles? More people could probably participate then. 17:50, 27 October 2006 (EDT)


 * I think a manual of style would greatly help the wiki by improving consistency in article formatting, and allowing issues like this to be discussed and resolved on way or another. I've put some initial adaptations of Wikipedia's Manual of Style at User:Aeleas/Manual_of_Style; I'll work on it some more and then possibly propose it for discussion as a guideline.--Aeleas 01:58, 28 October 2006 (EDT)

Languages
Beta Tester here - Not sure who wrote in the Sindassi language, but my in game beta client shows the languages for my Blood Elf are Thalassian and Orcish. Silvermist
 * Someone edited it back out. Can someone care to elaborate?    Silvermist


 * Edited it back. Confirmed from another beta tester that they speak Thalassian. This may mean updates of Sindassi and Thalassian are required. -- Kirkburn  (talk) 11:48, 2 November 2006 (EST)
 * Confirmed here also regardless of beta fyi --Gryphon 19:17, 2 November 2006 (EST)
 * They've all be changed back again. Not by me. Silvermist


 * [[Image:BloodElfLanguageBeta.jpg|thumb]] Here ya go.  Silvermist


 * We believe you, we do! :) Ooh, I can't wait to get started playing the beta ... -- Kirkburn  (talk) 21:39, 2 November 2006 (EST)

Sorry, I requested them, just to be on the safe side. Sindassi should still be mentioned, just to clarify. --Ragestorm 21:48, 2 November 2006 (EST)


 * Certainly. It's been assumed for so long, it would be silly to remove it straight away. -- Kirkburn  (talk) 08:31, 3 November 2006 (EST)

Blood elf size
Sonjaaa added a section saying the Blood elf males were bulked up for the fans. This is not true, and Blizzard have specifically said the opposite. It was to bring them more in line with the concept art. -- Kirkburn  (talk) 16:24, 3 November 2006 (EST)


 * I think this is debateable. Several beta forum posters on the EU beta website made several posts arguing that the Blood Elves were "too gay" - notably not referring to their size, but focusing rather on their emotes, jump spin, and their loot animation (which apparently resembled preparation for anal sex). Not long after, Nethaerea explains the change as the Blood Elves being changed to appear more masculine. I think adding two and two together here makes sense, especially since the concept art is hardly conclusive either way. Vikingkingq


 * Stereotyping ftl. No, it does not deserve a place in the article, especially with that kind of reasoning. -- Kirkburn  (talk) 10:11, 4 November 2006 (EST)


 * Personally the whole thing makes me mad. I mean all the other races have males that are way too buff and unnatural looking... can't we have one race of slimmer males?

Well we have blue stubs from Nethaera explaining that they were bulked up with the intention that they look more threatening, which they do now. That is how they came across in the concept art, and that is how they come across here. The lore reasoning could be (And again, I'm making this up with an educated guess) that the fel energies they feed upon would have a similar physical effect on them as they did the orcs.. Which is making them more physically robust.

To be honest the change is so minor people would not have noticed if they didn't announce anything. I think the reasons mostly lie, as this game should rely on, for gameplay reasons. It's much easier to model the blood elves now that they expanded some parts of their anatomy. There were reports before that their skeletal frames were breaking up and 'poking' out of the body. These complaints are now gone.

Although, I am disappointed they didn't go with the original concept art of making blood elves appear much more Middle Eastern-based.--Grid 11:19, 10 November 2006 (EST)

I completely agree with people who say that the bulked up Blood Elves are 'too gay'. as people have said before, quite a few of the races are far too buff and look strange. And it would be nice for the Horde to have a race that isn't butt ugly. --Jammidodger 10:37, 30 December 2006 (EST)


 * I had a thought, maybe it was just by chance or something. But I have been told constantly that the night elf females, the majority are lesbian. Maybe, the bloodelves ar like the male version? Like to balance things out? But you know... Just a thought. --Double Fury 28 april 2007

Beta Testers: Screenshots of hair/face styles wanted
I'd love to see an image file included in this article that had the various blood elf hair styles and facial features available at the character creation screen. A beta tester with some time and image editing software would be best for this job. The best way to do this would probably be to get a bunch of screenshots of male and female blood elves at the character creation screen, use GIMP or some other editing software to crop out the heads, place them in a grid pattern and post it to the site. You certainly wouldn't have to include every possible combination, but I think getting the gist of the available options for hair styles, colors, and facial features would be great for people who can't cycle through it themselves. 19:41, 5 November 2006 (EST)

Image of Leaders/not sure how to format
Hey, I'm something of a techno-novice, but I found an image of all three Blood Elf racial leaders that someone in the beta had posted on WoW's forums. I'm not so sure that the Lor'themar and Halduron angles are usable, but someone who knows how to do such things could maybe crop Rommath for use in his character bio page (linked off of main Blood Elf page). http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Leaders.jpg Vikingkingq

Done, as you asked. :) --Sul&#39;jin 19:56, 27 December 2006 (EST)

Common controversy
The article states that there is no evidence that "blood elves" would ahve even known common. This is in fact wrong because the RPG states specifically that blood elves know Thalassian and Common as their main two languages. So the lack of common in the game is more of a gameplay mechanic than anything. Sure its possible that Blood Elves languages could be retconned in the upcoming Hord, or Dark Factions sourcebook but there is nothing to know that for sure. That being said some form of Common(common, undercommon, low-common) is a language known by most races in Azeroth, not just in the alliance but also in the Horde. This is likely often the case because its kind of a universal trade language, spread by goblins and what not. Its also used to explain why it seemed as if every character in previous warcraft games, and novels are able to understand each other with a single language even though they may not have anything in common with each other or no previous encounters with those races.Baggins 13:59, 9 November 2006 (EST)
 * Second that. High elves were once part of the Alliance and therefore knew common in order to communicate with humans and dwarves (as the Alliance did not include gnomes or night elves until WoW). Since blood elves are simply renamed high elves, there's no lore reason for them not to know common, only a game reason. 16:45, 9 November 2006 (EST)
 * Slight note to Montag, actually Gnomes were part of the alliance since Warcraft II(they were the ones building the technology for alliance in that game), they were just too busy with take over with Gnomeregan in order to send support in the third war.Baggins 12:57, 24 November 2006 (EST)
 * Could someone who has a lot of forum experience please tell me how much of an issue this is? I find it a little hard to believe that so many people are complaining about this to call it a controversy. --Ragestorm 17:06, 9 November 2006 (EST)

Agreed, I'm not sure of how a big a controversy it really is. I've only seen it brought up occasionally in random WOW forums, but I don't recall it becoming a big debate.Baggins 19:11, 9 November 2006 (EST)

There are many things in the WarCraft RPG books that are not considered canon in-game because of in-game evidence. i.e - Ratchet in the RPG book is a huge metropolitan resort, with a booming population, casinos, bars, shows, gaudy lights, etc. It's intended to be a mix of somewhere like Hong Kong and Las Vegas, with an emphasis on Vegas. Also, there is nothing in the WarCraft RPG books to discourage any race learning Common, because in reality.. I mean come on, really. If WoW were real is ANYTHING keeping an orc from becoming a mage, or a gnome from becoming a priest? No, nothing is. Same goes for language. These reasons exist because of gameplay, and the answer is, that is simply that. Our job is to try to find some reasoning to compromise a gameplay decision and smooth it along to be believable in the context of lore.

I wrote that stub, and I find it the most plausible explanation. In regards to it's place as a controversy, it was pretty big once the race was announced, and still pops up now and again. It was one of the main arguments used against the inclusion of blood elves into the Horde, because the idea that an entire race seemingly forgot a language overnight was inplausible.--Grid 11:23, 10 November 2006 (EST)


 * The size of the world in game is limited due to technical issues in that a computer could not handle scale of a real sized world. So nothing about geography in the game can be considered canon as far as scale is concerned. That is the world in game is only a few miles across, and can be crossed in a short period of time, only a few minutes when previous novels, games, and RPG claim it would take weeks to cross... Not to mention if you counted in game population based in NPCs living in houses, well WOW's population is severely unrealistic(not to mention missing characters brought up in other sources). However according to Metzen, Warcraft Canon is combination of the games, spin off literature and the rpg, and is not limited to just one source of information. Just because you don't see somethin in the game doesn't mean it isn't canon, its just a limitation in what the game can portray. Another way of explaining it is the game isn't trying be an accurate portrayal of the world, but is more of interpretive portrayal of the world. That being said instances dungeons, and battlegrounds are often as large as the zones you enter them from. So its possible that dungeons and instance dungeons are to a normal scale, even though the overworld they link from isn't. Baggins 19:41, 10 November 2006 (EST)

Then by that note in the WarCraft RPG book, we are to say that all Forsaken know how to speak Common. So suddenly did they magically lose this ability when applied to the actual gameplay of WoW? It wasn't even reconciled as Underwater Breathing was in the game.

It's still my opinion the information about blood elf languages in the WarCraft: RPG Book was created for the sole purpose of the table top game only, and is not part of the greater canon.--Grid 03:49, 15 November 2006 (EST)
 * According to lore they did not lose knowledge of common, they just choose to speak Gutterspeak instead because of pride of the language. That is blizzard's official explanation now. As for why you can't use common in the game? Its a gameplay mechanic, to prevent people from trash talking the other side. Blizzard has said that the RPG is part of the greater canon, on the official site, and in the books themselves. The lore is written with the help of designers of the quest lore in the games, and Metzen is in charge of it all.Baggins 22:05, 22 November 2006 (EST)

In Warcraft III it was basically established that anyone could talk to anyone else whenever the story requires even if their races have never met before and exist on different continents(and sometimes planets). Language barriers just aren't taken very seriously in the Warcraft storyline. --Kinst 22:26, 22 November 2006 (EST)


 * Ya in warcraft 3 everyone was able to communicate with each other via common, or low-common, or a kind of mixture of common interspersed with random racial sayings. Language barriers in WoW are there for only one reason and that's to keep players from verbally assaulting each other.Baggins 22:34, 22 November 2006 (EST)


 * If you're upset about this language thing, blame the immature players, not the lore department.--Ragestorm 23:06, 22 November 2006 (EST)
 * Agrees with Ragestorm.Baggins 23:18, 22 November 2006 (EST)

Language barriers weren't put in because of immature players. It seems like a tempting explanation because alot of asshat behavior was going on before it was implemented, but no game mechanic can stem their tide. They were placed to put disfavor upon factions working together - i.e, getting them to kill that guy who dicked you over at the AH, doing quests together, etc. It didn't stop certain insidious acts of collaboration, however. On my server there were two top PvP teams who would throw matches with each other to gain optimal honor from each other with 2-3 min Warsong Gulch games. This was sent to a grinding halt when Blizzard wisely implemented the cross-server PvP system, which made cheating like this much more difficult to organize.

It would just be incredibly dumb in PvP servers. Red is dead TBH. And if that's the current language lore, I'll accept it, but I still find it fishy. --Grid 12:13, 24 November 2006 (EST)*


 * Actually I'm not argueing that isn't more reasons as why they removed the ability learn languages, or have ability for cross horde/alliance communications, but blizzard's blues have only stated one specific reason in their posts;

"So I will simply reiterate what others have said -- there was some limited functionality for this in Beta with the Undead, but it was removed due to the sheer amount of vitriol and bile that was spewed both ways. It caused a large number of harassment complaints.-Caydiem"


 * There maybe are more reasons, but blizzard has never admitted to others from what I've seen, though if you know of other posts where they discuss it be sure to bring them up on appropriate articles so we can have the most complete information according to the designers.Baggins 12:53, 24 November 2006 (EST)

Evil?
What is the meaning of the text beneath one of the Blood Elven pictures: "Evil has never looked so sexy" ? ´Who's evil?

Odolwa 23:51, 9 November 2006 (EST)


 * I think it's the official caption, so named because the Blood elves are just over than thin, winding line between good and evil. --Ragestorm 18:57, 9 November 2006 (EST)


 * I think you could make a good case for them being the most evil playable characters thus far, depending on your definition of evil. 19:16, 10 November 2006 (EST)


 * How about "downright bastards" :P -- Kirkburn  (talk) 21:08, 10 November 2006 (EST)


 * Downright bastards.. or Tragic Heroes? 22:38, 10 November 2006 (EST)

Try "all of the above", although I quibble with the word "tragic." One question: in whose book (apart from the sindorei) does leeching holy engergy from an angelic being not count as evil?--Ragestorm 00:46, 11 November 2006 (EST)


 * Victims of circumstance might be a better term. But, having said that, I want them to be evil. 06:43, 11 November 2006 (EST)


 * How about "evil, pending redemption?"--Ragestorm 09:36, 11 November 2006 (EST)


 * I think I'll stick with "victims of circumstance," because they got dealt the short end of more than one stick and were beaten with a couple. 13:40, 11 November 2006 (EST)

I don't get it. It's kinda natural being confused about this, since the Blood Elves in Warcraft III was everything except "evil". Kael, for instance, was a great hero, that saved his people from extinction, helped saving the Broken Draenei from Fel Orcs, aswell as aiding Illidan in liberting Outland from the cruel Magtheridon. Not to mention his effort in their try to destroy the Lich King.

And now he will be a raidable boss, even for his own people, that he saved? Without Kael, they would never been able to retake Quel'Thalas!

So, back to topic: what has happened between Warcraft III and WoW that has made these elves evil? --Odolwa 23:20, 24 November 2006 (EST)


 * Umm... they did retake Quel'Thalas without Kael. ANd what happened in between was probably that Vashj and Illidan succeeded in poisoning Kael's mind significantly.--Ragestorm 20:07, 24 November 2006 (EST)

Wrong, it was first when Rommath arrived from Outland, teaching the Blood Elves there about Kael's new way of taping new sources of energies that they became strong enough to retake the land from the Scourge. Not to mention that the Outland-Blood Elves also sent the Naaru to them, enabling them to become Paladins (which is an invaluable weapon against the Scourge).

Conclusion: the Blood Elves would be nothing without Kael'thas Sunstrider. --Odolwa 12:41, 25 November 2006 (EST)

Resorting to demonic magic will do that to you, no matter how pure you were. Not to mention they'd be understandably jaded for being screwed over so much. In a similar way that the Forsaken are not "evil" per se, they are definately not gregarious people. What can pass as even the purest Forsaken priest still has darkness lurking in his heart from the being a victim of the Plague.

And I think according to the Sunwell Saga the blood elves reclaimed Quel'Thalas mostly without the help of Rommath. Much of the Scourge already left to push the attack on Lordaeron, since Arthas only came there for the Sunwell and had no interest actually occupying Quel'Thalas. When the blood elves were first announced and Silvermoon City was introduced there was a story stub that mentioned that the Scourge curiously left nearly the entire city intact, save for the Dead Scar, which they created to go straight for the Sunwell.--Grid 14:51, 25 November 2006 (EST)

Hm, just read this on the Encyclopedia ( http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/encyclopedia/451.xml ) :

"Rommath remained in Quel'Thalas to help rebuild and await the prince's return. Thanks to Rommath, the blood elves on Azeroth learned how to drain arcane magic and feed their addiction. As they returned to health, they praised their absent prince and dedicated themselves to learning more. Rommath and the new order of elven magi made great progress in tutoring their brethren to manipulate arcane energies. Soon the spires of Silvermoon City rose skyward once again, powered by volatile magics. The blood elves have even begun retaking portions of Eversong Woods. Emboldened by the promise of Kael'thas' return, the prince's weary people now focus on regaining their strength and forging a new path into an uncertain future."

It sure sounds to me like the techings of Kael'thas and Illidan was the mayor factor in re-taking Quel'thalas and rebuilding Silvermoon.--Odolwa 23:56, 8 December 2006 (EST)

you guys are just pissed cus we are FRIGGIN AWSOME AT EVERY CLASS WE HAVE plus we are better palys than alli plays hahhahhahhahaha plus we look cooler than some stupid humans and gnomes. we also live longer than any other race except for draenei. at least were hot too AND powerful.--Rahnumed 20:22, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Source of magic
Talk:Blood elf/Lore

Pigzig
El Oh El please. He nuked the entire page. --Grid 01:52, 20 November 2006 (EST)


 * It was bothering to look at. --Pigzig


 * Notes about Blizzard's tendency to reference pop culture and other sources are welcome additions to articles. If you're going to edit them, please be constructive. 03:21, 20 November 2006 (EST)

Strange old blood elf models are still used in occasional spots in patch test realm
Oddly enough there are blood elves and high-elves that aren't replaced by the new model and still use the old ones in random spots around the world. Don't know if this will be fixed later, or if they did this to add variety for blood elf/high elf forms.Baggins 03:20, 23 November 2006 (EST)

Well, still a few places that still have the old model.Baggins 18:04, 8 December 2006 (EST)

Blood Elf Demonhunters?
There are a number of Blood Elf Demonhunters residing inside the black temple. Whether this class is to be included in the job list, it is not sure (but probably it is safe to assume that it is not.)

Blood Elf demon hunters were mentioned in Alliance Player's Guide as well, :).Baggins 18:01, 8 December 2006 (EST)


 * Er.. i can only assume this is datamined or from a private server, as you can't access it atm, so such information and images can not be used on the wiki, regardless of their existance. The APG however, sure. -- Zeal  talk   contr  web 10:49, 26 January 2007 (EST)


 * Actually, there are a number of BE Demon-hunters walking around outside on one of the terraces of the Black Temple (it's not in the place itself). Varedis is one of them (though I think he has a NE skin now).  --Maenos 15:06, 26 January 2007 (EST)

Change to racials
Someone change the Arcane Torrent racial. It triggers the Global Cooldown.--Grid 19:55, 30 November 2006 (EST)

Controversy
Seeing how long the section is on controversy alone would it be a good idea to create a seperate article Blood elf controversy, and then have this page link to it? We could do a similar thing with the Draenei controversy too.Baggins 18:52, 4 December 2006 (EST)


 * I agree--Ragestorm 18:55, 4 December 2006 (EST)


 * ::Cheer.:: Thank God. That section was incredibly ugly. 01:20, 9 December 2006 (EST)


 * Well I'm glad I made some people happy this week :p.(Baggins wimpers and crawls back into the doghouse)Baggins 01:40, 9 December 2006 (EST)

Who are the playable Blood Elves?
I'm a bit curious about who the Quel'thalas Blood Elves actually are. I have heard an explaination of the mayority of us playable Blood Elves being part of former Kael'thas army that was sent back (along with Rommath) to Azeroth with the purpose of helping the Blood Elves left in Quel'thalas with the re-taking. This makes real sense at least. Another theory is that it was only Rommath that was sent back to Quel'thalas, although this sounds a bit strange. Considering almost every Blood Elves followed through the Dalaran-portal with Kael, it would only leave a teeny-weeny minority left in Quel'thalas. Those wouldn't be enough to make up a playable race. So, is the playable Blood Elves a mix of former Kael'thas army, aswell as Blood Elves that never left Quel'thalas?--Odolwa 18:35, 15 December 2006 (EST)


 * Technically, I suppose they could be a mix. Personally, I think it's more likely that only Rommath and a few others returned, and that the playable elves are the ones who remained the whole time. I find the whole "90% eradicated" figure a bit inflated.--Ragestorm 13:02, 15 December 2006 (EST)

Elves are a very long lived race, so it isn't too unbelievable to assume the 90% wipe out, especially humans also numbered in the millions and now fraction of them are remaining. 10% of several million is still considerable. I'm under the impression that the blood elves that Maiev and Tyrande encountered with Kael'thas were a strike force accompanying Kael'thas while the majority of the blood elven military was still busy reclaiming Quel'thalas. Speaking strictly though it is impossible that any blood elf we can play as is a blood elf who followed Kael into Outland, since all of us of every race start off as fresh initiates who just signed up for the war effort.--Grid 16:10, 15 December 2006 (EST)


 * My point about the numbers is that the death toll seems abnormally high for any war, even one against the likes of the Scourge and the Burning Legion. For Lordaeron, they make sense, as they were forced to contend with the Scourge and then the Legion, and then the Scourge again, but Quel'Thalas? The same thing goes for the 80% figure for the Draenei.
 * Anyway, back to elves, it seems like most of the playable ones would be those who remained in Quel'Thalas the whole time. A note about Kael's faction is that Dalaran, as the most important magical center on Azeroth, would have been populated by large numbers of high elf and gnomish mages in addition to humans, so Kael's servitors could just be most of all elves living in Lordaeron and Dalaran at the time of Arthas's invasion, and would not be included in the surviving ten percent. --Ragestorm 16:52, 15 December 2006 (EST)


 * The strangest think regarding playable Blood Elves is: how they can be Sha'tar friendly, or Narru friendly in general, if they imprison and torture a Naaru in Silvermoon city for the mere purpose of draining power? Regarding Blood Knight they even take directly from the imprisoned Naaru!!! --N'Nanz 19,24, 16 December 2006 (Rome)

Horde?
I have some serioulsy questions about the inclusion of the blood elves in the Horde. First of all, it is well know that the blood elves were shunned from the Alliance by their practice of demon magic. Well, if that is correct, then the Alliance should also shun the Humans and the Gnomes, they also use demon magics! Ok, they were shunned by the Allied for warlock magic... if that were true, the Horde should also shun them... the horde doesn't accept warlock magic! Other point: The only Alliance faction who know about the orc's cultural changes are the Theramoore's humans, high elves and dwarves. Kul Tiras, Stormwind, Stromguarde, Dalaran, Gilneas, Lordaeron's survivors, Khaz Modan's dwarves and Quel'Thalas elves did not followed Jaina in the Battle of Mount Hyjal, thus they theorically does not know about the New Horde. And the Quel'Thalas elves are now the playable Blood Elves. It would be unrealystic if the blood elves could forget the years of war with the Orcs (in the Second War). They should not care if the Horde is now shamanist; the orcs are invasors and should die (as Daelin Proudmoore thought). Well, they may join the Horde through the Forsaken, which are dead high elves, but these undeads also should not be part of the Horde; I read somewhere that Sylvannas' parents were killed by orcs... would she forget all that? Would she forget the war with the orcs? And even so, I don't see a reason for the Horde to accept the blood elves... with the undead and elves, the Horde get two races who are certainly to betray them in the future. Who agrees? --Gollum 10:29, 24 December 2006 (EST)

Of course the Eastern Kingdoms-people know about the New Horde! They aren't completely isolated, you know. Thrall isn't exactly a stranger around the world. Also, the Undead Forsaken consists mainly of dead Humans. The undead High Elves are only the ghosts and banchees.--Odolwa 16:41, 24 December 2006 (EST)

Check the controversy stub, please.--Grid 10:57, 24 December 2006 (EST)


 * Even in the highly unlikely event that Jaina didn't tell her allies about Thrall's reformation, it would be impossible for the Night elves not to mention it at some Alliance council meeting. Also, the Forsaken and Blood elves are much more rounded than Marketing lets us think- the Blood Elves aren't mindlessly draining everything to feed their addiction, they are practicing some restraint (this is what sets them apart from Kael's blood elves).--Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 11:29, 24 December 2006 (EST)


 * Well you haven't read the lore tidbits about warlocks in the alliance in the game? If you remember the old description when you first choose the class in the game. They pretty much state that their existence is fairly underground, and usually you find their trainers in the darkest areas, inside of basements, in alley's etc. See Hidden Knowledge for a better idea on this fact. Though they are becoming a fairly common problem, so Alliance is starting to take notice according to the Alliance Player's Guide.


 * If you didn't know its mainly the humans, high elves, night elves and now the draenei that are the members who are usually behind anti warlock/necromancers rule. They are the ones that try to get rid of them as they learn about them.


 * Now the fact you see so many in WoW and they can get into parties with their greatest foes, night elfs and paladins, and priests. That is merely a gameplay contrivance. Even the character selection screen in current patch says that Alliance loath all things demonic.Baggins 11:33, 24 December 2006 (EST)


 * Leave it.--Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 01:09, 30 December 2006 (EST)

you know why the kicked blood elves? cus blood elves are WAY better warlocks than both humans and gnomes trust me i know. the only thing we arent the GREATEST at is being a rogue but weve got undead in the horde that are the best in pvp hahha. humans just couldent take it that we live super long, look awsome,are rich, and much more powerful albeit low in number.--Rahnumed 20:24, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Infobox
Should we say "children of the Blood" to bring it in line with the Night elf infobox? While it works, it sound a bit repetitive to say "blood" twice. Perhaps "survivors of Quel'thalas" or something different, but happen to feel that "blood elves, children of the blood" doesn't flow very well. --Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 20:33, 25 December 2006 (EST)

Am I right in saying it's 'Children of the Bloodline' rather than just 'blood'? I'll have to find the source... --Vorbis 11:47, 26 December 2006 (GMT)


 * No, it's children of the blood, according to the Thalassian primer. And that doesn't flow much better.--Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 09:12, 26 December 2006 (EST)

It may sound a bit awkward, but I think it flows better and has more poetry to it than saying "Sin'dorei" which would basically be like saying "Blood elves, the blood elves". The advantage is that it will link them with night elves, but I am open to other suggestions. What about "Blood elves, Risen from the Ashes?"--Zexx 12:07, 26 December 2006 (EST)


 * That works. "Bloodline", though is simply a completely false translation.--Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 12:38, 26 December 2006 (EST)

Changed it to "in Honor of the Perished". Sounds much more accurate.--Zexx 17:12, 27 December 2006 (EST)


 * Sounds odd, what is in honor to the perished? The change of name? It's not very accurate. I would prefer the original line, where "Blood Elves" were translated into Thalassian, simular to "Night Elves" being translated into Darnassian. That would link the two races together in a good way.--Odolwa 23:22, 27 December 2006 (EST)


 * It should be a rough translation of Sin'dorei, should it not? -- Kirkburn  (talk) 17:26, 27 December 2006 (EST)

We decided "Blood elf, the Children of the Blood" doesn't have the nice kind of flow the night elf info box does. I suggested at first that it be changed to Children of the Blood but I saw what Ragestorm meant. It links them, but it doesn't really do anything to make them sound cool.

And Odolwa to your first question, blood elves renamed themselves blood elves in honor of their dead. Also I definately think taurens need a new hook, and Darkspears and Forsaken should be given ones in the first place.--Zexx 17:30, 27 December 2006 (EST)

Yes I know, just thought it sounded a bit unspecific in that situation. And I agree, Troll and Undead need a much better line.--Odolwa 01:01, 28 December 2006 (EST)


 * I added lines for Trolls and the Forsaken. Feel free to critique and change. For blood elves, "In Honor of the Perished" is accurate but not the same pattern as the other lines. "Children of blood" and "risen from the ashes" is a bit vague. "Survivors of Quel'Thalas" sounds nice, but "remnant of Quel'Thalas" might be better. 03:16, 28 December 2006 (EST)

Not bad at all. For forsaken, I'd favor something like "champions of the Banshee Queen" or something more... undead. Still, this works quite well.--Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 11:25, 28 December 2006 (EST)

I like the Undead-line, but "islanders of the Darkspear tribe" doesn't fit very good for Trolls, considering all of them nowadays living on the mainland of Kalimdor.--Odolwa 17:30, 28 December 2006 (EST)


 * We are about to launch a rehash of the troll article, so leave off for now.--Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper

I'm going to adjust the tauren and Forsaken ones. The Forsaken need a line that doesn't describe them as undead, but Forsaken -- most importantly the fact that they are free of the Lich King, of course. The tauren one feels too similar to night elves. As for the troll one, I'm still trying to think of something clever.--Zexx 14:07, 29 December 2006 (EST)


 * Excellent one for the Forsaken.--Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 14:31, 29 December 2006 (EST)


 * There are some good alternate descriptions for the Forsaken in the RPG as well, Gutterspeak for example goes into a little of how they view themselves, the "outcasts", "abandoned by everyone", etc. I'd have to go back to the book to list a few more discriptions given.Baggins 14:42, 29 December 2006 (EST)

Why even have these Azeroth blood elves?
I am confused as to why we have these Azeroth blood elves. Their intentions don't seem that bad in comparison to those of the blood elves in Outland. Apart from using a bit of demonic magic, the Azeroth blood elves actually seem to have pretty much the same values as the Alliance high elves. It's sort of weird how we have these blood elves who are evil in Outland, we have the good high elves true to the Alliance, and these Azeroth blood elves which are sort of in the middle. I think that the playable race should have been one or the other (alliance high elf or outland evil blood elf), not this weird happy medium between the two. -Jenalla


 * Why? Read the lore. Anyway, many people are not happy about the choice made by the Blizzard (I still think that the Alliance should get the ugly Draenei (like the Broken Ones), and should never make the Draenei the way they look in BC, and thus not connecting them to the Eredar race, leaving them just as ancient inhabitants of Draenor (the land which is named after them - how the heck did Draenor got the name after Draenei, and not Orcs, if the Draenei were there AFTER the Orcs?), and blah blah blah... I know, I know, they're nice, but still the original ones (from W3) or "Broken Ones" would suit much better). Still, we gotta take what we're given, I just hope that when the next expansion is out, we won't get anything like it. --Sul&#39;jin 07:07, 4 January 2007 (EST)


 * Basically, tensions arose between the newly formed blood elves and the Alliance when the working relationship between Lord Garithos and Prince Kael'thas went sour over receiving aid from naga against the Scourge. In the end, the Alliance declared the blood elves traitor, set to execute Kael'thas who was subsequently rescued by Lady Vashj. Kael'thas and Vashj fled to Outland with Illidan, but the trust between the Alliance and the blood elves left in Outland had forever been broken. Combine this with the rising nation of the Forsaken, which are led by the former high elf Sylvanas, and allying with the new Horde starts to looking much more attractive. -- Varghedin (talk · contr) 09:04, 4 January 2007 (EST)


 * And one major problem with having playable high elves is that they're (almost) all dead. 09:34, 4 January 2007 (EST)

Agreed. Besides, while it's a weird medium, it's not a happy one, and you'll find that it works alright lore-wise; the Azeroth blood elves still have a few high elven ideals which make them fit into the Horde, while their Outland cousins have adopted Illidan's dogma in relation to magic, which wold not fit with the Horde. And like Montag says, most of the high elves are dead.-- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 11:19, 4 January 2007 (EST)

Indeed High Elves would never work as a playable race. They are too few, havn't got their own homeland, and even as we speak, the process of High Elves converting into Blood Elves occur. I wouldn't blame them for leaving the Alliance. I would miss my homeland and former brethren a lot if I were a High Elf.--Odolwa 17:25, 4 January 2007 (EST)1


 * Actually they could, except for one thing. Too few? Well there are still enough to make up a playable race (look a the darkspears, they all came from that teeny island where they were being attacked by Murlocs.  I mean sure, they are scattered, but if they organised themselves better, they would be a force to reckon with (they have large numbers in Theramore, the lodges, and now Allerian Hold)  They haven't got their own homeland?  That's easily solved.  The Orcs didn't at the start of Warcraft 3.  Besides, supposedly the Theramore  alliance elves are looking for a new place to settle in Kalimdor. No, those aren't actually the real reasons.  It's because they are the same species as blood elves, and blizzard wouldn't want to make two races using the same model.  I think it would be better if there were more factions than alliance and horde, and within some factions we could play as a race that is the same species as a race in another faction, but slightly different.  (example, an evil Illidan faction that would include blood elves and fel orcs, while the alliance would have high elves and the Horde would have regular orcs.) --Jenalla
 * Actually they could, except for one thing. Too few? Well there are still enough to make up a playable race (look a the darkspears, they all came from that teeny island where they were being attacked by Murlocs.  I mean sure, they are scattered, but if they organised themselves better, they would be a force to reckon with (they have large numbers in Theramore, the lodges, and now Allerian Hold)  They haven't got their own homeland?  That's easily solved.  The Orcs didn't at the start of Warcraft 3.  Besides, supposedly the Theramore  alliance elves are looking for a new place to settle in Kalimdor. No, those aren't actually the real reasons.  It's because they are the same species as blood elves, and blizzard wouldn't want to make two races using the same model.  I think it would be better if there were more factions than alliance and horde, and within some factions we could play as a race that is the same species as a race in another faction, but slightly different.  (example, an evil Illidan faction that would include blood elves and fel orcs, while the alliance would have high elves and the Horde would have regular orcs.) --Jenalla


 * To use a real-world example of your homeland suggestion, look at people of Jewish descent. Did everyone of Jewish ancestry go flocking to Israel when it was founded? Of course not, many had lives of their own in countries around the world. Same with the high elves- those that live in Stormwind or Theramore are at home there.
 * There are also more Darkspears around than you suggest.
 * Finally, WoW is about marketing to those who don't really care about lore, and marketing advised Blizzard that a PvP dichotomy works better.-- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 12:15, 4 January 2007 (EST)

Ultimately the answer is this: They're cool.

Lore, for the most part, is always created to adapt around the sake of gameplay. We are, afterall, playing a game. The lore is just a nice bonus for the geeks in all of us to get into and play around with. Like the Forsaken the blood elves joining the Horde is an Alliance of convenience. Although I like your idea of different races swearing fealty to different political affiliations, it's just unrealistic at this point in WarCraft history. Maybe when the two factions have cooexisted long enough for there to be a breakdown of racial association with each political philosophy, and become more of a personal decision, it could work. Also it would be too confusing in PvP (Trust me it's why I play this game), and being part of a certain faction or face loses some "flavor", if you will.

There are still plenty of high elves if you put it in comparison with a race like the draenei, who are practically extinct. In the aftermath of the Orc-Draenei War (Historical rule of thumb -- when a war is named after the two nations that went to war together, the victor's race comes first) only a few dozen of them were left alive. In the end it becomes a matter of gameplay balance.

The Forsaken were initially heavily distrusted, and even though the Royal Apothecary Society still schemes and tortures, it would appear the Horde has warmed up to see them as trusted allies. Atleast from Thrall's perspective chronicling Rise of the Horde.

My opinion is that in time, the Forsaken and blood elves will both learn from much wiser races who have experienced the same things they are experiencing before.

And that is all he wrote.--Zexx 14:56, 4 January 2007 (EST)


 * I agree. Besides, I imagine that once you start playing, things will become much clearer- I've met a number of people who were violently opposed to the draenei and blood elves, but after they started beta testings, all they've been able to talk to me about is how much the races work! Once one of the most vehement, my best friend's new favorite race is draenei!
 * Often, all this whining is for nothing.-- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 16:51, 4 January 2007 (EST)

The blood elves didn't leave the Alliance because of the Garithos incident, they left the Alliance BEFORE the Third War. The playable blood elves are almost exactly like high elves, play them if you like high elves. Saimdusan 03:11, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Infobox/Banner placement
I find with both Firefox 2 and IE7, placing the BC banner template after the infobox causes display problems in the article. In Firefox, the text of the banner is placed beside the infobox, with the text about 2-3 words wide running the length of the box. In IE7, the banner gets bumped to after the infobox, leaving the left side of the screen blank. In neither case does any of the lead section appear on the screen when the article is loaded. Both of the above are assuming a maximized browser with a bookmark pane open at 1024 by 768 resolution. The same occurs on Draenei. If the banner is placed before, then both banners appear at the top of the article, and while they take up a fair amount of space, both the top of the infobox and the lead section are visible.--Aeleas 18:17, 5 January 2007 (EST)


 * Ah, I see the problem in IE7, when the width is quite low. I'll take a look at the BC template later, see if I can reduce it a bit. It needs updating anyway, and a new icon might be a good idea. -- 18:28, 5 January 2007 (EST)


 * Sorry, I didn't take IE into account- it scanned fine in Safari and Netscape.-- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 20:51, 5 January 2007 (EST)


 * I didn't notice until I made the screen really really teeny, anyway. I've reduced the template size now, should help! On a side note, we need to reduce the number of bc template uses, and it will need to stop categorising pages soon, the BC cat is far too large and unusable. -- 21:10, 5 January 2007 (EST)

Reinstate Eluna's images of blood elven children
The blood elf female beta pictures are taken using the model viewer. The blood elf children are not restricted content. You can see them in-game at the Caverns of Time.--Zexx 10:29, 14 January 2007 (EST)


 * Then the picture of them should be from there. Model Viewer is only to be used in exceptional circumstances. 10:57, 14 January 2007 (EST)


 * By that reasoning half the images of models retrieved through Wowmodelviewer have to be removed. Are you going to get around to do that? [[Image:IconSmall BloodElf Male.gif]] APΘLLΘ (ZEUS)  11:29, 14 January 2007 (EST)


 * Are model viewers allowed under the ToS and EULA?--Aeleas 11:58, 14 January 2007 (EST)


 * Yes, model viewer is akin to datamining. However, Blizzard don't appear to mind, so there's little point us having a strict policy against it. In-game screenshots are usually much better (and more appropriate) anyway, thus they are much preferred. The only stuff from model viewer that should be deleted without question is unreleased content. (so yes, I am saying the pictures would be acceptable if there wasn't a better place to get them - i.e. in the CoT) 13:24, 14 January 2007 (EST)


 * First post! Anyway, In the blood elf starting zone there's two female elven kids. Nova was one of their names. Want me to get a screen? - Xeros

Ya, would be better than putting up dragons in elven form.Baggins 21:24, 16 January 2007 (EST)

Perfect.--Zexx 02:26, 17 January 2007 (EST)

Blood Elf facial hair
A question for those with the expansion, what are the facial hair options for Blood Elf males, I know there is the goatee, but what else? Mannerheim

The only other I've seen is a soul patch, which my belf pally has.--Zexx 09:47, 26 January 2007 (EST)


 * Just a wide array of stupididly small hair patches on and around the chin, that's it. It's hardly noticable and a ridiculous attempt at adding character customization imo : / -- Zeal  talk   contr  web 10:25, 26 January 2007 (EST)


 * Stupid allright... I would have liked facial paint or runes, etc. Heaps more, it would add to the demonic lust thing, using your body to channel power better... And would look wikid! --Double Fury 28 April 2007


 * ...agreed. Aren't High Elves, and for that matter Blood Elves supposed to be hairless, or are those just D&D Elves?  It could be a side-effect of the fel energy on the Blood Elves or something, because none of the High Elf NPCs I've seen have facial hair.  --Super Bhaal 11:29, 7 May 2007 (EDT)


 * Nah, it's because they're just getting hairstyles that weren't really used much in HE times. Looks like the BE *can* get a bit of facial hair, just didn't in HE times because it was socially wierd (like having earings in your hair or something). Saimdusan 03:15, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, the facial hair is pretty lame. Why cant my blood elf mage have a big beard?. --Nurizeko