Talk:Kil'jaeden/Lore

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'''Some fans have debated as to whether Kil'jaeden or Archimonde is the greater of the two. These primary arguments for Archimonde as the stronger were posed recently. Counterarguments (for Kil'jaeden not being any inferior) are in italics (Counterarguments for these are bracketed in italics).'''

Position
''Kil'jaeden was chosen to seek out the "darkest races" in the universe, while Archimonde was chosen to lead the armies of the demonic Burning Legion. This was so even after the banishment of Sargeras to the Abyss at the death of Medivh. That Archimonde maintained his position of military power was proof of his ability to wield demonic magics better than any of the other eredar, including Kil'jaeden. The initial choice may have been based on intellectual ability- Kil'jaeden's role was as important as Archimonde's, and Archimonde's postion simply means that he has more skill as a field commander, or that deception is Kil'jaeden's stronger suit.'''

Role in the Second Invasion
'''While Kil'jaeden took a backseat in the second invasion of the Burning Legion, Archimonde carried on to raze the entire city of Dalaran to the ground single-handedly and subsequently led his armies to nearly defeat the entirety of the combined legions of night elves, humans and orcs. ''While this might be true, we have never seen Kil'jaeden's powers in practice. As stated, Archimonde's army gained strength from him being commander. Such a force, regardless of their leader, is a one to be reckoned with, and their near-success is probably not an indication of their leader's power, but the entire Legion's potential for destruction.'

Defiler's End
'''Archimonde required the full primal fury of the World Tree and countless night elves' ancestral spirits to finally be able to defeat him. ''Again, we have never seen Kil'jaeden utilize his powers- for all we know, only the Aspects or Elune herself could vanquish him. (A counterargument for this would be that if Kil'jaeden had been so powerful, he would probably have attempted to destroy the Frozen Throne himself, and not call upon the cunning and powerful half-demon Illidan to do the work.)'

Legion's "Defeat"
'''Even though Kil'jaeden had remained alive after the Battle of Mount Hyjal, the Burning Legion was considered to have been "defeated" at the death of Archimonde. ''To be technical, it was- the Legion was defeated within the confines of Azeroth- no one maintains illusions that the Legion actually ended their Crusade in general. (Yet, such a defeat despite Kil'jaeden remaining alive and present in Azeroth would mean Kil'jaeden did not have the means to continue this Invasion, thus implying that Archimonde had been the stronger of the two.)'

The Threat
'''Despite what others might say, Kil'jaeden was not considered as much a threat as Archimonde during second invasion. ''Largely because he was not present in Azeroth at any point during the Invasion- actual invasion was the job of Archimonde, and Kil'jaeden had fulfilled his role in the Invasion by creating the Horde, and later, the Scourge. (Yet if he had been more powerful than Archimonde, surely he would have chosen himself to be the one who gets to drain the World Tree's energies for himself instead of letting a 'weaker' Archimonde have it. One must note that both had not expected Archimonde's fall in the end; Kil'jaeden mentioned that the consumption of the Skull of Guldan sealed their defeat in that world, but it might then again be a deception so that Illidan would fear his vengeance upon him and thus act quickly to destroy Nerzhul)'

The Lich King
'''While Archimonde just only had to snatched the reigns of the undead from the Lich King, after his death, Kil'jaeden had to deceive Illidan into destroying the Frozen Throne for him. ''Actually, their goals were completely separate. Archimonde removed command and gave it to the Dreadlords as a practicality for invasion- the Lich King was a moot point. Kil'jaeden was actually trying to destroy Ner'zhul, and the greatly depleted Dreadlord presence on Azeroth was not enough, while Illidan's lust for magic (and the powers of the Skull of Gul'dan) provided an excellent pawn for the destruction of a loose cannon.'

Let's open the debate!
Please continue to discuss and debate below:

Rank
As stated in the official Warcraft history on the Blizzard page, Kil'jaeden had authority over Archimonde. It is stated that Archimonde led the invasion into Azeroth "Under orders from Kil'jaeden himself." Given the treacherous nature of demons in general, don't you think that if Archimonde had the ability, he would have killed Kil'jaeden and taken control of the Legion himself? GenMalSis

The same argument can apply to Kil'jaeden: Why Kil'daeden did not kill Archimonde and take full control of the legion pior to the Second invasion. I think Archimonde led the invasion into Azeroth " under order from Kil'jaeden himself" as Kil'jaeden planned the invasion. The invasion by Archimonde is just the next step in the plan after the creation of the Scourge. Kil'jaeden was in charge of the special misson. A 'First time failure of a invasion' pretty much falls under special mission. Thus under the charge of Kil'jaeden.LoreFanBoy 04:39, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Warcraft RPG
I'm no expert on pen and paper RPGs, but I saw on a site that Kil'jaeden has a significantly higher challenge rating in the Warcraft RPG than Archimonde. Archimonde's challenge rating is 50, while that of Kil'jaeden is 59. I know that challenge ratings aren't 100% indicative of who is more powerful, but I would assume that a difference that large must mean something. GenMalSis

If you bothered to check more carefully: Grom Hellscream had a CR of 20++ while Mannoroth had a CR of 40++. The diffirence in CR is much higher but Grom Hellscream was able to slay Mannoroth? CR rates mean Challenge Rate which means the difficulty a player would have in facing the said INDIVISUAL. Example : A monster of a CR of 100 would be alot more difficlut to deafeat than a monster of say CR 50. Thats all it means. CR has no relevence to whos more powerful. LoreFanBoy 04:40, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Kil'jaeden vs. The Lich King
It has been stated several times that if Kil'jaeden were as powerful as Archimonde he would have destroyed the Lich King himself. What people who make these arguments seem to forget is how hard it is to summon a being of that power into Azeroth. Let's assume that Kil'jaeden is roughly the same power as Archimonde (not that big of an assumption). In order to summon Archimonde, Kel'thuzad, himself a being of tremendous power, had to die and be reborn as a lich. Arthas and Kel'thuzad then had to retrieve the Book of Medivh, a powerful magical artifact, and bring it to a specially prepared summoning circle in Dalaran, a nexus of powerful magical energies. Once everything had been prepared it still took a lengthy ritual to actually summon him. Considering that the Lich King is no longer supplying servants for the Legion and most of the Legion's servants on Azeroth are dead, Kil'jaeden is unable to make his way into Azeroth. It's very possible that if he were able to come to Azeroth, he destroy the Lich King himself, so him not killing Ner'zhul himself isn't an indication of his power. GenMalSis

But Kil'jaeden is present on Azeroth AND Draenor in The Frozen Throne, and seemingly came and went as he pleased. And since Illidan still feared his wrath, I doubt he was powerless whatever the explanation is. --Austin P 09:13, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Seriously, how could you not notice that? His only two appearances in game show him in places he should have to be summoned to, but apparently didn't have to. --Austin P 11:19, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * They could simply have been very powerful shadows; regardless, it's all but confirmed that Kil'jaeden is the most powerful demon around, barring Sargeras. Note that the conversations at the top of the page were made by someone who had some kind of pathological problem accepting Kil'jaeden's power. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 13:07, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The fact that KJ was slightly transparency on Azeroth might have been a hint that he wasn't actually there. :P Also, I don't recall much, but I think when he appeared in Outland, he had a smokey cloud underneath him, plus his image instantly vanished when he had finished his conversation with Illidan. --Raze 09:52, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

To reallt determine whos more powerful we must look at the feats they both did. After reading the pages on both Archimonde and Kil'jaeden i found out that they are many assumtion on Kil'jaeden and most are biased toward Kil'jaeden as they looked upon Kil'jaeden as a perfect, cunning conquerer making all the right decision and thus is the primary villain in WoW. Example(quoted) : "Kil'jaeden seems to have no problem keeping his ego from dominating judgment." and " his vengeance upon the draenei perhaps more terrible than that visited upon any of the Legion's other foes". Remember that the Lich King had out smarted Kil'jaeden and have gone out of Kil'jaeden's control. This have obviously been unanticipated by Kil'jaeden. Thus the Deceiver have been 'deceived'.

Lets us look at the feats of the two had accomplished :

1.) Kil'jaeden enslaved the DreadLord " a feat that would have required immense cunning and awesome magic" . The DreadLords had already bowed down toward Sargeras powers when Sargeras freed them from their prison. Archimonde had enslaved the PitLord. No solid evidence had proved that Sargeras had enslaved them before hand.

2.)Kil'jaeden had enslaved countless number of races into the Legion while Archimonde strategic mind had led the Legion to victory over countless worlds. There are evidence of Archimonde enslaving races like Kil'jaeden : Tyrande mentioned while in her imprisonment in the palace in War of the Ancient:The Sundering, 'enslaving her to his will and that of his master', while Archimonde fight against the Defenders in the same book: ' these Taurens would become splendid additions to the Legion'

As Archimonde had participated more actively, his power are more actively demonstrated.

1.) Single-Handed destruction of Dalaran.

2.) Slaying of Malorne

3.) Slaying of a full grown dragon just through a single gasping action of his hand.

4.) Mental assualt on Malfurion but did not slay him

Apprently his powers are soo terrifying that in WotA: DemonSoul Krasus mention him as ' the One who sit on the right hand of Sargeras' and Ronin and Brox was afraid of him as well. He struck absolute fear into Mannoroth as Mannoroth descibe ' Any single action, however minute, that could be constructed as defiance might mean his painful demise.' ' Almost as much as he fear Sargeras he feared this one' refering to Archimonde.

Kil'jaeden while did not participate actively in Azeroth have shown to have incredible ability.

1.) Creation of the Lich King however lost control of him.

2.) Planned the Second invasion

3.) Velen descibe : ' Kil'jaeden was his, as well, as Archimonde's superior in matters of the Arcane BEFORE Sargeras grant them both immortality and immerse powers.

However with all these arguments, there isnt any solid prove of who is more superior. All the argument, however intresting are just argument.

LoreFanBoy 05:22, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I would say that Kil'jaeden would be more powerful then Archimonde simply because of this, Even if Archimonde had greater magic then KJ. KJ Still has his brains and cunning, he is basically a top performer at what he does. But with his brains and cunning he probably has the knowledge and mental power at his disposal to seek out magics for himself. As for Kil'jaeden and the I want the World Tree's power instead of Archimonde, Kil'jaeden himself is not going to be there on the field, and he probably see's that even though It COULD be an upgrade for his power, that power is better served with Archimonde - As even if Kil'jaeden had more power, he is better off serving as bringing in new races to the Legion... They both are put where they best belong... --Shiniki 18:29, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

If i where blizzard i be working on a story of warcraft 4 after wotlk is finished. If warcraft 4 came they could show people that has not been killable yet like Lich king,anub'arak and kel'thuzad(if not they die in wotlk ofc) and kil'jaeden if he not die in BC. It would be very cool If we could see kil'jaeden and Lich King fight in a gigantic battle in wc4 end cinematic where they both get destroyed. LKHighlord 10:34,13 April 2007 (UTC)