Talk:M'uru

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This talk page has archives referring to speculation M'uru's willingness to be used for the blood elves' experiment at Talk:M'uru/Speculation archive and Talk:M'uru/Speculation talk archive.

Kinda hard to tell
Why is it presumably male? -- 19:49, 19 January 2007 (EST)


 * Should say "presumed". I think it was referred to as a "he".-- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 23:25, 19 January 2007 (EST)

Reasons why I doubt M'uru is a matyr
1.using holy magic does not make one a good person as evidenced by Daelin proudmoore and the scarlet crusade

2.The only thing letting blood elves have holy magic teaches them is that they can steal anything and that its easier to just steal the something rather then the work for it through faith.

3.the Naaru are at all fond of the horde,I mean they'll tolerate them and accept their help but they sure as hell don't like them. After all they are the enemy of their precious army of light

4.Blizzard has stated blood knights are completly evil

5.Blood elves are tainted beyond repair with demon energy. Everything good in them is dead or dying,which is why many blood elves have complete apathy for others, sometimes going as far as taking joy in someone's elses pain. They are not at all friendly with their allies their just means to an end,I can't find a single blood elf who is an actual friend to another member of the horde. A Naaru are probably disgusted by the presence of a blood elf.

6.Blood elves rather then fight their addiction,they chose to suck demonic energy.

7.due to their horrible choice of lifestyle All blood elves will eventually become demons. This is stated by a night elf npc and Blizzard has said Blood elves will be a different race from high elves once they become completly demonic.

8.Lorewise a Naaru would gut a blood knight on sight. Blood knights are a parody of everything they stand for. They don't do this ingame due to the fact that would be unfair to blood elf paladin players. This was stated by a CM.

This whole Matyr theory seems like a sad attempt to salvage a lore trainwreck. Angry ogre


 * I've corrected the placement of your comment. Now, let's take this one by one, and bear in mind that I dont have a strong opinion either way:


 * 1) True, simple use of the Light does not guarantee that one is a good person- but there is a possibility that it might have some kind of gradual impact on the person's ideals- though Proudmoore and the Crusade are overzealous, their ideals aren't evil.
 * 2) Show me your evidence.
 * 3) What hack evidence do you have to support that statement, apart from them favoring the dreanei?
 * 4) Show me that press release.
 * 5) Completely unfounded- if they were tainted beyond repair, then the Horde's blood elves would be betraying the Horde and helping Kael in his Legion-sanctioned efforts, instead of joining the raid to kill him.
 * 6) That's how they're fighting their addiction.
 * 7) Night elf NPCs dislike all other species of elf because of the Kaldorei/Quel'dorei split nine thousand years ago- a statement like that cannot be taken as unbiased. Blizzard has said that Blood elves would be a separate species from the high elves if they become completely demonic- it is not say that this wuld definetly happen.
 * 8) Show me your evidence.
 * I can accept that M'uru is not a martyr- but only with better evidence. -_ Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 08:56, 7 February 2007 (EST)


 * 1. Yes, we can see that, what with the Scarlet Crusade being overzealous and all. You're giving us info we already have.


 * 2. The candy analogy is what saved this from being dismissed.


 * 3. There are several Horde quests involving Naaru. What in the heck are you talking about "The Naaru sure as hell don't like them?" There are more Horde quests involving Naaru than Alliance quests. Take a look at D'ore.


 * 4. Blizzard could easily recant that statement. They recanted Maiev's death in the RPG books, for instance. Also, proof please.


 * 5. That contradicts the fact that the Silvermoon blood elves are in the Horde. The Horde would never side with the Burning Legion.


 * 6. Blood elves are merely finding a different source. Why are you criticising them for fighting an addiction by trying something new?


 * 7. Not all blood elves will become Wretched. Then what? They'd be killing each other (take a good look at Eversong Woods quests)


 * 8. Absolute bullcrap. The "Oh, it's a gameplay mechanic that they're allowed in there" isn't gonna work on me. Explain the Scryers then. They have blood knights, and they're welcome in Shattrath City.

In conclusion, your theory against M'uru not being a martyr is terrible. Garm 21:05, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * If I may intrude, there is a common belief that the blood elves are consuming demonic magic to fight their addiction. However, I believe this is a misconception. From what I've read thus far at their race history on the Blizzard website, I have come to believe that they are consuming all forms of magic, divine, demonic, etc and aren't exactly being choosy. In fact, the only magic specifically mentioned is arcane magic. The only ones actively seeking demonic magic are the blood elves are the Outlanders and not the Azerothian ones. mr. peasant 21.21, 7 February 2007 (GMT)

1.Theres been no evidence of that happening. Infact blood knight Npcs say the light continually tries to resist and escape.

2.If a parent didn't let a kid have a candy until he worked for it,he would learn you have to work for things. On the other hand if the parent(M'ruu) pretended to be captured by the kid(blood elf) and the kid just stole the candy bar(light). It would just teach the kid that its easier that its easier to hurt others and steal things instead work for them. After learning this lesson the kid would most likely grow up to be the Jack the ripper.

3.Theres the fact that Only a small minority in the forsaken believe in the light(a warped version too) the rest of the horde either doesn't care about the light(orcs,tauren,trolls) or abhor(forsaken and blood elves) it. Orcs almost wiped out their favorite subjects the draenei,the Draenei still hold the grudge and I doubt the Naaru really care whether the orcs where tricked into doing its still not something one can forgive and forget about. Also Both Azeroths and outlands blood elves harass the Draenei. They also probably heard stories of horde cruelty from the humans and Draenei. Basically horde is just a bunch of guys they aren't fond of who do favors for them in exchange for tips.

4.One of the Cms said the blood knights would be more evil flavored. Another time they said that a blood knight is the evil counterpart to the paladin.

5.Blood elves are only fighting Kael because he betrayed them and they want revenge. They are not doing because they are good or like the horde. Infact if they had it their way horde races would be used for slave labor

6.That doesn't fight their addiction only warps their mind and steadily destroys their soul. The right way to do it would be to meditate or sate their thirst with moonwells like the high elves.

7.This wasn't just any Night elf. He was a reseacher and wanted you to bring him Satyr brain stems. After you completed the quest,he noted that a satyr's brain is almost virtually to a blood elf brain stemn in that both of them are warped beyond repair with fel magiks. He goes on to say that only a madman would absorb demonic energy theres no way that he would come out without a warped brain. Even their brothers the high elves admit blood elves are a lost cause. Also Blizz said blood elves are rapidly are becoming more demonic and won't be the same race as high elves soon.

8.Drsyc a cm responded to the question "Why are blood knights allowed in Shattar" and he said it was for balance not lore,in the lore, Naaru wouldn't a blood knight enter. Angry ogre

I think Blizzard invented the blood knights because they thought everyone would like EVIL paladins. But then they realised it would take work to change the holy glow of paladin spells ,so they made up some crap about blood elves about blood elves stealing the light,so that people could have EVIL paladins and they wouldn't have to do the backbreaking work of changing the color of paladin spells. They probably thought that people who care about lore would get upset but then realised if they could get away with the draenei they could get away with anything.Afterwards they decided not to change the model of the Draenei's ghostwolf to something that actually that makes sense,because switching models would be too HARD for them to do. Angry ogre


 * Does it sound like I give a damn?
 * Blizzard's done what Blizzard's done, you are never going to swing us to your line of thinking.
 * Back on topic, your parent/candy bar analogy makes sense. For now, I'll add a note saying that the theory has holes. As for you "evidence," I refuse to consider it until you point me to the actual text. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 22:14, 7 February 2007 (EST)


 * oo oo let me give bebunking this a try! :P
 * I've not seen the evidence you speak of after having played through the Blood Knight quests up to level 25, twice. Details please.
 * This is true
 * This shows your complete misunderstanding of the situation. The Horde is not enemies of the army of light, that is never said or even implied. The Scyers, the Blood Elves who changed sides to join the Naaru have been well accepted by the Naaru (though not the Aldor Draenei), and Azerothian Night Elves are invited to join them too. Simply because the Draenei may hold a grudge to the Orcs (something that i've never yet seen expressed in Draenei lands), does not mena the Naaru consider them enemies. That the Dranei and Blood Elves now hate each other thanks ot Kael doesn't say naything of the Naaru either. We've only ever seen the Naaru in a supportive and protective role, never one of leadership, the Draenei act on their own, with council, guidance and help from the Naaru.
 * Even if that is true, a CM's word is never that reliable. Metzen tried to explain why the Blood Elves are not evil, yet sadly all he did was prove they are and that people apparently don't want to admit it because they see it as justified. The why, the how.. all irrelevant, they are evil now. Their actions speak of what they have become, no one on the receiving end cares as to the reason.
 * The same could be said about the Forsaken. The Azerothian Blood Elves, and even the Scryers, saw the line for the first time, saw Kael's path, and decided it's one they don't wish to follow, and not a line they're willing to cross. Kael is well on his way to becoming Wretched himself fro mthe sounds of it. They see what they need to do things border-line evil to survive, but they will only go so far, as not to become like those they consider pure evil. It has paved way for the more sinister types to act out and take power though. Think of it like the Burning Blade within the Orcs, slowly taking back control from within because Thrall's decided to accept Warlocks.. (Go lore failures! ¬_¬)
 * As Mr. Peasent said, they are not solely using Arance magic to feed their addiction from a lore perspective. Weilding and using magic is enough for them, but with the obvious ability to drain and consume the mana of their enemies in order to replenish themselves. The difference between now and succumbing to their addiction? Well the Wretched serve as the example of that, from your description you're implying they're already at that stage of will end up their soon enough, where as in fact, that's exactly what they are not becoming as long as they don't let their addiction overwhelm and take over them.
 * Certainly likely. It's where that path always leads.. You mess with Arcance, you screw up your brain and go insane. ;)
 * Oh.. the amazingly knowledgable Drsyc >_>; What he meant to say i'm sure is, the lore was created to supplement gameplay balance needs as with 90% of the Warcraft lore. The lore is the lore, regardless of how or why it was made.
 * Basically as Ragestorm said. Blizzard's done what they've done. Doesn't matter why, doesn't matter how. It's done, and dislike of it doesn't change what it is. -- Zeal  talk   contr  web 22:47, 7 February 2007 (EST)


 * Zeal, regarding no. 4, I disagree. It sort of depends whether you see it from a deontological or a teloeological point of view. As far as the blood elves are concerned, the ends (satisfying their need for magic to survive) justifies the means (consuming magic of others).
 * And on a separate note, I noticed spells like Starshard (Night Elf Priest racial) are also considered arcane. Does this mean that not all arcane spells are demonic in nature or is it simply in-game limitations? mr. peasant 0914, 8 February 2007 (GMT)


 * Numerous comment by numerous Blizzard reps in numerous situations confirm that certain spell damages are due to game mechanics and have no impact in lore. In other words, Starshards (and any other Night elf spell that does arcane damage) is not an arcane spell lore-wise. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 10:48, 8 February 2007 (EST)


 * I distincly remember a blood elf questgiver saying the light resists them. I'll try to find a source
 * Indeed it seems to be inspired blood elves in outland to steal druidic magic as evidenced by High Botanist Freywinn
 * The army of light is the alliance. The horde is not allowed to join,Naaru blatantly ignore horde,they wouldn't give a damn if all orcs died off. Besides the races of the Army of light(the alliance) wouldn't even accept the tauren. Fordragon ordered the death of blighcaller(an old friend of his) for being dead he'd sooner die then accept the forsaken. The horde does not follow the light and fought with the draenei and the alliance,and the naaru in Exodar are not at all friendly to horde. If they did care about horde races,then they would have told the draenei not to fight the horde instead they seem to encourage as evidenced by the fact that Naaru in Exodar are hostile to horde. The scryeys are probably only there so when they turn into demons due to the demonic they put in themselves. They'll be surrounded by Naaru and the aldor. They probably secret support the aldor. Face it Naaru don't like the horde and would never let them into their army of light.
 * Cm's work at blizzard they know what their talking about. Actually on the collectors addition dvd,the tone of voice Metzen used when describing blood elves seemed to imply that they were evil and hinted they would get their comeuppance. He seemd to be excited about the draenei but didn't like the blood elves at all. Which proves my theory that the expansion simply forgot about horde and was too excited about its precious alliance.
 * Actually they only fight Kael because he betrayed them. Otherwise they would be fighting with him. Thrall accepting warlocks makes little sense but it makes more sense then Thrall letting in the ancient enemy of the horde,composed entirely of warlocks,with decaying souls to boot.
 * All blood elves have an gross amount of energy in them. The fact that they have the same eyes as Doomguards and dreadlords just tells that their all beyond redeemption. All blood elves use demonic energy to sate themselves,those green crystals in their cities are composed of demonic energy for them to defile themselves with.
 * Yup
 * Somethings are only in the game for balance like Druids having Arcane. Blood knights being allowed Shattar is one of those things.
 * I agree with you there whats done is done. Horde is now evil. I also happen to know the person who made this assine theory,he wasn't even a fan of the horde,infact the moron thought Darkspear trolls were evil. I can say without a tinge of uncertainty that every single blood knight is copmletly evil. Blood elves don't desire love or acceptance,they view charity,altruism, and sympathy as weaknesses. Belgrom in Orgimmar fell in love in with a blood elf against his better judgement,she was merely using him and killed his comrades. They disgustingly exploited the horde's sympathy and charity for them while they don't plan to reform and merely want to use them as meatsheilds. Its ludicrous to try and deny that blood elves are evil. Blood elves are in the horde so we can evil elves that lonely men can masturbate over. Nothing you say can change this. Angry ogre


 * Please do.
 * Aye.
 * The Alliance is not the army of light. I've never seen it say this, or anyone associated with Blizzard say this. I didn't realize this was the angle you were taking. Yes it is a step towards it, but the Alliance did not instantly become the army of light, there are plenty of thee alliance, who do not adopt or follow the light, more than those who do in fact. The Naaru that we've seen do not directly interveen, so they would not stop the Draenei from doing what they decide. They only offer guidance and support when asked. The hostility of the Exodar is a game mechanic.
 * Rofl, there is plenty of times they've had no clue what they are talking about. I think you're just being biased here, i picked up the tone expected for what was going with each race, nothing more.
 * None of that is accurate or true. He has not actually betrayed anyone, only failed his people in the eyes of his people.
 * One again, that is the common form it takes, but not the only. They haven't gone over the edge yet.
 * N/A
 * But it doesn't void the lore. What is done is done. Adding them as a faction there is a major story point that supports the rest, it was created for a game mechanic, but it's result is new lore. Nothing less.
 * I don't know how true your story about the theory is, but it is irrelevent, as it does have some ground to stand on, even if it's creater was an idiot, it's out of his hands now and taken on by others. Only place i have a lack of certaintity of evil is the Farstriders, the rangers of Silvermoon.. their lore is lacking, we don't know the details of how they deal with addiction, as they never were as close to magic as the rest. Irregardless, you should not judge on a few examples of evil people, otherwise all races could be judged thus, but instead their actions as a whole. I don't wish to change this keep in mind, merely wanted to debunk some of your points. I honestly don't beleive the theory and do consider it ill concieved throughout as most theories i read. -- Zeal  talk   contr  web 20:16, 8 February 2007 (EST)

It's clear that nobody's opinion is going to be changed, so let's end this now: I'll add a note saying that the theory has holes. If any biased comments make it into the articles, they will be removed. And Angry ogre, you make one more "Horde and/or Blood elves are evil" edit, you will be banned. Otherwise, contribute and discuss as needed. -- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 21:10, 8 February 2007 (EST)

Since no one really believes in the matyr theory anyway. I'm moving on to a discussion of the naaru. http://www.wowwiki.com/Talk:Naaru Angry ogre

Does a martyr have to die, or just sacrifice himself in some way or have a personal loss for another?-- 21:47, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Technically a martyr does have to die for the cause- that's the definition. However, the word is often used for someone who sacrifices something for a cause. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 22:23, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Reaction
In the condition that a member of the Alliance comes in and kills the blood elves sapping M'uru, how does he respond? Does he kill any Horde players that come in the room? Or does he just kinda... stand... erm... float... there...? Hordesupporter 22:27, 18 February 2007 (EST)


 * Well he can't be intereacted with by Horde players in his current state, so i assume nothing happens. No idea if the Blood Elves sapping him are interactable either. -- Zeal  talk   contr  web 04:35, 19 February 2007 (EST)

It would be difficult to know the answer as to whether the blood elves in the room with him are interactable, as when a raid of one faction enters the racial capital of another faction they head straight for the cities racial leader, and generally don't bother with other sections of the city. Hordesupporter 02:47, 5 March 2007 (EST)


 * On the paladin forums it was stated that a raid managed to break into silvermoon and kill the guys channeling M'uru, but nothing much happened. M'uru just floated there. I think he reacts as a friendly green to Alliance players, but I don't recall anything specific being said in that thread. I've lost the link for it though, but it should be there if you search for it. I don't have the time to do that now though, I'll add it later if no-one else does. :-/ Hemical 07:25, 18 March 2007 (EDT)


 * Here we go! http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=69643530&postId=695863247&sid=1#11 Hemical 07:44, 18 March 2007 (EDT)


 * And I was wrong, A slightly edited quote from http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=70848105&postId=707418094&sid=1#12 : "[The magisters binding M'uru] were actually killed on beta. One dude trained the guards/class trainer back out into the city while a 70 rogue walked around and ganked the drainers. Naaru didn't do anything, and was in fact red/hostile to the alliance too." Hemical 07:48, 18 March 2007 (EDT)

Naaru Life Cycle
Just a litle speculation, but I read on the Naaru page that the naaru have a life-cycle that goes from light, to darkness, then rebirth as light. Maybe M'uru is red/black due to old age, which is why it was easily subdued by Kael's supporters? It came up in one of my filthy arrogant bloodelfadin's Arrpee sessions when his wind was taken out of his sails by some wise old grunt. Hemical 07:44, 18 March 2007 (EDT)


 * If M'uru dies quickly enough that the Magister's can't cut off the power siphoning, it could really mess up the Blood Knights, perhaps killing them or turning them into something similar to Death Knights. There's no way this would happen in-game, but it could happen between World of Warcraft and the next Warcraft game (whenever that is). -- Gordon Ecker 21:03, 5 April 2007 (EDT)

Power
This page mentions that Kael'thas could not have subdued M'uru if his level of power was on par with someone like Azshara or Sargereas, well, I can believe that with Sargereas, but Azshara... remember that Kael is no pushover, expecially when it comes to magical power, granted he probably isn't on par with someone like Azshara, should Kael and his blood elves fight Azshara, the will probably lose, but Azshara is going to at least take significant damage as well. Hordesupporter 20:24, 24 March 2007 (EDT)


 * True, perhaps. The section in questions isn't trying to say that a demigod could twitch and they would be repulsed- the section is saying that Kael and a blood elf strike force isn't enough to subdue a demigod (or naaru, if this is the individual power level). It's also heavily hinted that Azshara is much more powerful than Mannoroth, possibly even more powerful than Archimonde, making her about on par with Kil'jaeden (who is the one that the section references, not Sargeras).-- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 21:10, 24 March 2007 (EDT)

I see... just pointing out theat little fact. Hordesupporter 23:58, 26 March 2007 (EDT)

What I would like to know is, if M'uru voluntarily submitted to capture, would it matter how powerful he he is? If he was as powerful as a god but he wanted to be taken prisoner, he would hold back his full strength.Kraas 11:25, 27 March 2007 (EDT)


 * Technically, it matters in the debate of whether he submitted or not- if he is as powerful as Azshara or one of them, then he probably did allow himself to be. If he's only as powerful as the average dragon or hero, then it could go either way. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 20:05, 27 March 2007 (EDT)
 * My own personal feeling is that he is very powerful, otherwise the Blood Knights wouldn't be a force of any consequence. If naaru weren't that strong, it seems to me that they would need a number of them (definitely more than just one) to siphon from in order to get enough energy to create a powerful order of holy warriors.


 * Sign your posts, please. That's also due to a lack of information about the nature of the Naaru: is M'uru's personal power being drained, or are greater powers of the light being stolen through him? It's a question not answered. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 11:20, 30 March 2007 (EDT)

Considering the amount of Blood Knights (i'm refering to blood knight npc's, not player characters) it seems more likly in my opinion that their using M'uru as a "gateway" of some sort to tap into the light. Hordesupporter 17:16, 30 March 2007 (EDT)

Perhaps the fact the Kael'thas has a Phoenix God in is living room in the Eye could help clarify that. M'uru could easily be on that level, with all the Blood Elf strikeforce and the Phoenix God being what it would take to subdue him. That said, I have my doubts as to him being a martyr simply on the grounds that using him to create Blood Knights was not the original plan. The original plan was for him to be consumed by the elves of Silvermoon as a short term way to slake the addiction. Than Magister Bloodsworn got the bright idea to turn him into a longterm source of Holy Power. The question is whether M'uru would have known this was going to happen. Meneldir

If he is a martyr, then I guess once he realized what they were going to do to him (sap him to create the blood knights) he decided to make the most of his situation. Hordesupporter 01:43, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

You do realise...
Kael=Boss lvl M'uru=73...just saying. BTW I think m'uru and Oro need boss lvl, but for now well we can only be so sure.


 * Sign your posts, please. As of yet, there is little indication that levels directly tie to lore power. So far, everything has been game mechanics for what works according to what has been released when. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 22:59, 10 April 2007 (EDT)


 * Why that? I might seem "Stupid, but if one were to kill M'uru, then the Blood Knights would Collapse. Horde/Blood Elves won't kill him, since that'll destroy some of their military Ideals, and why wojuld Alliance players kill a Naaru, considering their favor of the Draenei? Adding a Boss level would seem Obsolete.--User:basher1200

Powers
Seeing that the Blood Knights all of them Siphon power from him, It is possible that he is in a weakened state, That he may have came there under the intentions of showing them the light but failed and was shackled down...

A Study in Power
The quest follow up to "The First Trial" sends paladins to Magister Astalor Bloodsworn, next to M'uru: http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=9681. Bloodsworn states that M'uru is a "gift" from Kael'thas. More importantly, he also says that M'uru "begrudges us its power," making clear that M'uru is there unwillingly; debating whether or not it is a martyr is irrelavent. M'uru is still alive. 14:26, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Huh? Couldn't "begrudges" mean he decides to give them his power, although he doesn't like it? Hordesupporter 16:53, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

More proof that the naaru is choosing to stay there
A'dal has tons of forces at his command and create porta anywhere he chooses.

Now my own opinion. Whether or not the light will cure blood elves. But most of the time the Blood knights spend their time fighting the naaru's enemies the scourge and the Burning legion. While some blood knights are clearly corrupt like Kael'tha's loyalists Liadrin and Magister Bloodsworn. Many Blood knights have taken up the path for opportunity to fight the scourge and other forces that threaten their homeland. Notable is that much of the corruption in Silvermoon points to Kael'thas and his loyalists. With the players eventually defeat Kael'thas presumably ending much of the corruption in Silvermoon. Zarnks 05:47, 19 July 2007 (UTC)


 * This is true. It doesn't come across that way because WoW is open-ended, but had this been a plot device in a normal Warcraft game (where it belonged), that would be the case. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 23:28, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I hope by the next expansion some development will be seen with Kael'thas and Silvermoon. I'll be annoyed if there are still statues of him in stormwind and Blood elves talking about the glories of Outland. Zarnks 08:59, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * It's been said a numebr of times that many of WoW's plots are more suited to campaign-style games, not open-ended ones. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 13:07, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Wouldn't the next patch (With the Sunwell) give some hints towards M'Uru? I think it will, because Metzen will probably have everything cooked up before he releases it.--Pimmeh 17:20, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

M'uru now Exodar faction
Was bored after completing a Zul'Aman quest and decided to do some espionage with my Night Elf druid. M'uru is now shown as friendly to alliance players, and of the Exodar faction. Lady Liadrin, however, did react a bit angry to me jumping down do hole on top of her ;) --Hurax 21:09, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Rofl, i bet she did. I wish we could kill off the magisters draining M'uru and free it. And then, all Blood Knights suddenly see their mana drop to 0...that would be awesome, especially if we do it while some big horde guild is raiding Mount Hyjal or something. That would be a city raid i would sign up for on a daily basis...show the blood elf paladins that they are not the true masters of the light after all.DenimForce 09:51, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It would stop Nihilum in it's tracks... Garm 22:35, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Reasons Why M'uru Probably Willingly Stayed With Blood Elves
1. Should something like a nuclear bomb occur (as per Auchindoun and Oshu'gun), he already has meat shields: Blood elven magisters and blood elf tankadins.

2. M'uru is weaker than the rest of the naaru. If his rebirth cycle got amplified, he'd be stronger than A'dal. Now suppose M'uru was envious of how powerful the others were. He can get back at them and be better, and have allies.

3. Perhaps he is the one training the blood knights as well? He is a being of the Light, so he'd have to teach the Blood Knight leaders how to use it first.

4. Lore would be ganked if the Azeroth blood elves in the Eastern Kingdoms in Quel'thalas became evil. They shunned Kael already because he was an epic failure (in their green eyes).

5. Perhaps there will be a fun quest (in a later patch) where the faction leaders talk to M'uru, like one of those talk shows, only better. There are still incomplete quest chains and several plot holes after all. {points at Missing Diplomat quest chain}

6. If M'uru weren't willingly staying with them, A'dal would've sent people to flat-out kick Silvermoon's butt and rescue him. That has yet to happen.

Any objections/opposition? Garm 22:34, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I applaud Blizzard
I never though they'd make a permenant change like this. I am very impressed how they are avoiding a static world. Zarnks 01:48, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * It is new and interesting. Only time will tell if it is good.-- 02:07, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Point of note, its not a incredibly fancy change, its also not very dynamic. Its going to make that room in Silvermoon look boring at this point.


 * If you really want to see real changes they need to design the game to have characters you can see at a low level but move and change places when you get above a certain level, when you are strong enough to see it in a new place. Basically something along the lines of an npc with triggers that will only be viewable if you meet certain requirements, but dispear after you bypass those requirements. This would allow new players to experience the changes in the world dynamically. Lord of the Rings online does something similar to this, although it does it by loading different versions of a room, so that if you solve a quest for a major character, who must move on, he will appear somewhere else later on (and all new players get to experience the evolution in the story, and see the characters dynamically change positions).Baggins 04:09, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * WoW wouldn't really be able to do that though with the way the game is settup. Leviathon 04:20, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The game has invisible "triggered" npcs and stuff already. They could easily set up the system to make npcs visible or invisible depending on certain conditions. There are for example certain quests where npcs won't appear in a certain area unless you have the quest on you, and if you have already finished the quest you can't see that npc anymore.Baggins 04:32, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Like how Katrana dissapears after being shown to be Katrana and killing Bolvar, but if you come back 10 minutes later, they're both there again.  Mr.X8  Talk Contribs  17:21, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * No i think he means permenant and forever. The technology is already in game (certain quest givers, units invisible to some, etc...) it just hasn't been utilized to its full extent, and old content has remained the same. A great example is the one you just meantioned:Onyxia. The NPC could be programed to appear to those who have not done the great mascarade quest, but afer completion she disapears. In this way the world progresses but old content is not removed.


 * With Mu'ru gone many new Blood Elves will never get to expieirence their origins, draining Mu'ru, etc... i think this is what baggins meant. Would have worked better if he had remained, but at lets say lvl 70, Mu'ru is no longer seen by you and the story advances. NPCs have the newer text, The Matriarch disapears from Silvermoon, etc... It can be done and already has been, just not in these specific places. 06:35, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Ya, Warthok, that's exactly what I meant. Thanks for explaining it in a much clearer way.--Baggins 09:19, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I must disagree I enjoy seeing the story play out arround me even if I cannot participate due to level. Heck I am annoyed you cant even visit sunwell plat. below 70.Scorpx3 19:46, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Old stuff
I think it will be M'uru itself --N&#39;Nanz 20:09, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Won't happen, cause if we have to kill M'uru, the bloodelves would lose the ability to become paladins. Before this Dark Naaru was even mentioned we weren't sure if Naaru even could die...they are simply reborn. Perhaps this "Dark Naaru" is a completely different race...or the fight will end without having it "kill" it. 20:13, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Assuming it is M'uru, the fight might not bee about killing it, but instead healing it, perhaps charging surrounding crystal nodes of some kind with positive holy energies, restoring it to the light half of the cycle, which could lead to the blood elves no longer having to siphon the light, being able to get it the "right way", as it seems to me, that this is primarily about the redemtion of the blood elves more than anything else. Pure speculation, ofcourse.Tweak the Whacked 00:37, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Redeeming Muu'ru would be very drastic and stuff would have to change.  Mr.X8  Talk Contribs  03:18, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Thats a flaw in the timeline of mmo's. For instance, the forsaken are still fighting dalaran mages, and yet Dalaran's going to be a neutral city in WotLK.Tweak the Whacked 05:09, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


 * There is no evidence to suggest that M'uru is currently "dead" or a dark naaru. If it were any of the currently known naaru, it would most likely be Mi'xi, as he is the only known naaru that has yet to appear in-game. -- 16:24, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

True, no evidence to suggest that it's M'uru, though M'uru definatly is fading. Again, its all speculation at this point.Tweak the Whacked 10:20, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I can't see why you can kill the prince of the Blood Elves twice but you can't defeat, kill or restoring to light a martyr of the blood elves because it is involved in other quest/lore. Kael is involved in the lore even more that M'uru but you kill him twice and the quests are neither linked!!! --


 * Got to love timeline issues. Can't remember how many times Onyxia has been killed...its like she has a Sarcophagus in the back room or something. 21:02, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Indeed, game continuity is becoming consistently more befuddled. It doesn't make much sense that players will be able to kill Kael'thas in MT without first "killing" him in TK. -- 17:54, 5 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The continutiy is here. KT gets defeated by "the protagonists" in The Eye, then brought back to life, and again "the protagonists" fight and kill him in MgT. Your character's timeline is irrelevant to the story, it must be seen from the point of view of "the protagonist(s)". WiredLain 18:51, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

On alleigance
Is it not possible that the Naaru are a divided "people" as well, much like the Draenei? Perhaps in some ancient age, a portion of the Naaru defected to fight alongside Sargeras (or something). The remaining "proper" Naaru may feel very guilty about this, which could, to a degree, explain their tireless dedication to fighting the Burning Legion. If the Naaru have shown favoritism to the Draenei, this guilt might also explain this through empathy (same histories). In summary... it could just be a Naaru loyal to the Legion. Or mind-controlled by Killer-Jay (cf. Kalecgos / Vael and Nefarian)

Likely a possibility as any, though it puts the naaru on a much more mortal plane than they've been presented as being so far.Tweak the Whacked 00:12, 4 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Having 2 sides to a coin wouldn't bring them down. And besides the Naaru aren't god like creatures, they are merely made up of energy. They have a deep affinity for the Holy Light of Creation, It's possible the Dark Naaru are the exact opposite ... having a deep affinity for the Darkness of Destruction (or something). They inturn, could be helping the Burning Legion. 00:28, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Frostmourne, Flamestrike & Ashbringer
I was thinking, and for me Flamestrike and Ashbringer are the opposite of Frostmourne:

Flamestrike = Fire

Ashbringer = Light

Frostmourne = Shadow + Ice.

So, for me, in WotLK I think that the Horde may obtain Flamestrike and Alliance the Ashbringer. So the first part for the Horde may be you go and kill Kael'thas and get a piece of a crystal to make the Flamestrike. And for the Alliance you kill the Dark Naaru and get a piece of it to get the Ashbringer.--02:01, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

M'uru as Void God
Since the new M'uru model just has the normal naaru animations it seems thats not what we fight. But the void god sure has quite a large resemblance to a Naaru with the runes on its back and around it So it seems possible we meet M'uru who then goes into the Naaru void state which we then defeat. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w1/leviathonlx10/voig.jpgLeviathon 06:37, 9 February 2008 (UTC)


 * This seems the best explanation. Kael spirits M'uru away to Quel'Danas, and the demons there decide he's not evil enough, so they collapse him into a Void God, which you then have to fight to redeem the Fallen Naaru.  We'll see I guess. NYET! 17:33, 19 February 2008 (UTC)


 * He summons Voidcaller adds... No one has filmed the void god yet.-- 02:37, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Well the only attempts made on M'uru before Sunwell was disabled for a few days involved the entire raid dying a minute into the fight due to some move he did. So its quite possible later in the fight or after that move if everyone survives he turns into the Void God. Leviathon 02:43, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I found a video on world of raids that makes it look like the void god is summoned in. http://videos.curse.com/details/1177/ should get you there. If not that try worldofraids.com and scroll down to the section on Mu'ru. Meneldir 03:42, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Looking at the sound files no, it looks like I was wrong. Meneldir 01:24, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Move
Someone could move this article to "Mu'ru(tactics)"-- 12:19, 13 February 2008 (UTC)


 * No, a new article needs to be made, as this page describes a dark naaru...the instance info needs to be removed though. 20:48, 13 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Either that or move this into the discussion page of M'uru. This is M'uru (tactics) and all the info above has no relevance on the M'uru encounter in Sunwell Plateu. Lindorm (talk) 16:59, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Boss in New 25man.
Looks like the new boss in the 25man Sunwell could be a very corrupted M'uru.

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2008/february/muruentropius2.jpg

Verduria 13:15, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Entropius
M'uru is Entropius the Void God during Velens speech he says this while speaking to Liadrin. In the end the blood elves are fully redeemed and M'uru will eventually be reborn.


 * Velen: 'The creature Entropius who you were forced to destroy was once the noble Naaru M'uru. In life M'uru channeled vast energies of light and hope for a time a misguided few sought to steal those energies, then fortunate it is that I have reclaimed the noble Naarus spark from where it fell. Where faith dwells hope is never lost young blood elf. Gaze now mortals upon the heart of M'uru unblemished bathed by the light of creation just as it was at the dawn. In time the light and hope within will rebirth more than this mere fount of power mayhap they will rebirth the soul of a nation. Salvation young one it waits for us all. Farewell.'.


 * Liadrin: 'Our arrogance was impardonable we damned one of the most noble beings of all we may never atone for this sin.'. Response to a question: 'Can it be?' The last bit of speech she says is ' Blessed ancestors I feel it, so much love, so much grace... there are... no words... it is impossible to describe'. I'd imagine she is given the shard. Leviathon 04:27, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I saw SK Gamings video of what you describe, and while you are pretty close, it seems more like Velen takes out the crystal and purifies it with the newly purified sunwell, or purifies the sunwell with the shard, I couldn't quite tell, but the two seem to be linked now. Meneldir (talk) 16:03, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Can Negative Energy shadow damage be absorbed?
The main article on M'uru (tactics) says that M'uru's Negative Energy beams do "unresistable Shadow damage."

Can this damage be absorbed by, say, a Warlock using Shadow Ward on himself?

-- WoWWiki-Tracer (talk) 02:10, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

M'uru and Múru
There may be a connection between the two after all: Múru means Primeval Night (in Quenya), and Ungoliant was known for spreading darkness. Of course, this only works if Blizzard intended for M'uru to become Entropius all along.  Xavius, the Satyr Lord  17:40, October 3, 2009 (UTC)