Talk:Backstab

Rank Table
Can anyone take a look at the way I've linked to the rank table in the first paragraph? I marked it with a comment to make it easy to find. I can't figure out how to link to the table without reloading the entire page. I tried just using the '#' with the heading name, but it seems not to work that way. I know the page isn't really long enough now to even worry about it, but I'm anticipating that users will add more later. ;-) -- Campbelld 11:48, 25 Nov 2004 (EST)

150% or 180%?
Backstab was listed as only doing 1.5 weapon damage, this is incorrect as it does 180%(ie. 1.8). Updated the page to reflect this. Xenli 2156, 3 December 2006 (JST)
 * This is actually incorrect. The tooltip changes to 180% if you put talent points in opportunity, but this is just blizzard trying to reflect your talent choices in the tooltip.  The base adjustment is indeed 150%. - Taliafears 13:04, 1 February 2007 (EST)

Surprise Attacks
Does anyone know how surprise attacks stack with opportunity? Additive or Multiplicative? - Taliafears 13:01, 1 February 2007 (EST)

Yes, it's additive. So, (1.5) * (1 + .1 for Surprise Attacks + .2 for 5 ranks in Opportunity). Also, Surprise Attacks and Opportunity only apply to weapon damage, not to the fixed damage bonus [255 at max rank]. I did some minor editing to clarify a few things and fixed the damage formula. You can test it yourself, next time you respec, go to a Level 1 area, grab a starting dagger and backstab a few rabbits as you add your talent points back in. You'll see. I didn't change any real content except to fix the damage formulas and clarify some issues. For example, what talents and attack power the example 68 combat rogue would have. I also removed the misleading Average Hit formula as it didn't not take into account that attacks could be dodged. - Dontmindme 15:15, 7 March 2007 (EST)

Bonus Damage Is Included For Opportunity/Surprise Attacks
I've done some testing and found that the "Bonus Damage" of Backstab is actually affected by Opportunity and Surprise Attacks. This means that these talents do what they say they do. They increase the total damage of that ability by a percentage, rather than just increasing the part that comes from your weapon.

I used a level 70 undead Rogue stripped of all gear except a white quality vendor dagger with a damage range of 1-3. My attack power in this situation was 370. I had 5/5 Opportunity but not Surprise Attacks. My target was level 9 Elder Mottled Boars in Durotar. After a total of 27 Backstabs, I observed a damage range of 374-378 for normal hits and 861-867 for crits.

Assuming that the 255 bonus damage from Backstab is not affected by Opportunity, my damage range (not including armor) should have been 336-342.

BackstabMin = (1 + 370 / 14 * 1.7) * 1.5 * 1.2 + 255 = 337.67 BackstabMax = (3 + 370 / 14 * 1.7) * 1.5 * 1.2 + 255 = 341.27

As you can see, this is below the observed range, even without accounting for armor. If I include the 255 bonus damage inside of the Opportunity multiplier, I get

BackstabMin = ((1 + 370 / 14 * 1.7) * 1.5 + 255) = 388.67 BackstabMax = ((3 + 370 / 14 * 1.7) * 1.5 + 255) = 392.27

Which would correspond to about a 3.7% reduction due to armor. I think that this is reasonable for a level 70 vs. a level 9 Boar. Certainly more reasonable than the first calculation which implies a 10.9% increase in damage. I'm going to move some parenthesis around on the main page to fix this. Anyone is more than welcome to change it back if they have better data.

--Hykns 03:26, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I double-checked by backstabbing some Ragged Young Wolves (Level 1) who show a full 110 and 220 crit on a kick test showing essentially 0 armor. I confirmed your findings a couple days ago. Yes, it appears Blizzard has stealth fixed the bonus since I did testing months ago. The testing also showed that Surprise Attacks is still additive with Opportunity. So this formula seems correct until Blizzard changes something again...

Slayer's Armor 4-part bonus additive or multiplicative?
The tooltip to Slayer's Armor says "Increases the damage dealt by your Backstab, Sinister Strike, Mutilate, and Hemorrhage abilities by 6%". Where does that enters into the formula?

Multiplicative (as one would suspect by reading the tooltip):

HitDmg = ((WeapDmg + (AttackPower / 14.) * 1.7) * 1.5 + AdditionalWeapDmg) * (1. + .04 * Opportunity + .1 * SurpriseAttacks + .02 * SinisterCalling) * (1. + .06 * Tier6_4SetBonus)

or additive (makes sense because of consistency with talents):

HitDmg = ((WeapDmg + (AttackPower / 14.) * 1.7) * 1.5 + AdditionalWeapDmg) * (1. + .04 * Opportunity + .1 * SurpriseAttacks + .02 * SinisterCalling + .06 * Tier6_4SetBonus)?

-- Alc 15:31, 18 January 2008 (UTC)