Talk:Matthias Lehner

Arthas
Anybody got a screen shot of him? Matthias Lehner is anagram of Arthas Menethil, i'm sure it have something to do with the heart he trew awayAzahel (talk) 16:18, 29 September 2008 (UTC)


 * He knows stuff nobody else does, he's arrogant and he's a little blonde boy, well, no doubt that's Arthas' spirit Azahel (talk) 00:33, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I really hoped that the earth was the way to redeem Arthas only killing his lich king part instead of killing both. alas, it looks that we will have to kill arthas as we did with illidan and malygos, as initially blizzard developers clearly stated that(at least with malygos) we wouldn't kill them...-- 19:28, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Requires Citiation (fact check) that Matthias Lehner is indeed, Arthas.

There is no proof that he is Prince Arthas Menethil II.By the mother moon! and the white Stage! (talk)

I've took the Librety of removing it from the page. I'm saving it in The Discussion here.

It is eventually revealed that the strange object is the Frozen Heart of Arthas, and Matthias Lehner is a manifestation of Arthas' remaining humanity. When this information is presented to Tirion Fordring, he believes the Frozen Heart of Arthas can be used to help redeem Arthas and thus defeat the Lich King. Tirion Fordring infiltrates the ceremony where there Frozen Heart is to be destroyed, along with a cadre of his knights. Unexpectedly, the Lich King arrives at the ceremony and immediately identifies Tirion through his disguise. The Lich King beckons Tirion to stare into the Frozen Heart. Tiron decides that there is no hope to redeem Arthas, and destroys the heart himself. This process nearly kills Tirion, and drastically weakens the Lich King. Before the Lich King's minions can overwhelm Tirion, the Knights of the Ebon Blade arrive led by Darion Mograine himself. They subdue the Lich King's minions and flee with Tirion before they suffer the Lich King's wrath.

After the destruction of the Frozen Heart, Arthas' humanity and thus the spectral Matthias Lehner are lost forever.

By the mother moon! and the white Stage! (talk)

What gurantee is there that the destruction of the heart resulted in Arthas' humanity and thus Matthias being destroyed? The quest certainly didn't state the disappearance of Matthias or the loss of Arthas' humanity, and from what it seems, the banishment of Arthas' humanity and the removal of his own heart were two seperate events. Thus, there should really be no reason why the removal of his heart should result in the destruction of his humanity, especially when his humanity is still confirmed to be existing in Halls of Reflection.

Yogg-Saron and Matthias Lehner Related?
It makes no sense, as far as I can see, for Matthias Lehner to be a manifestation or Arthas' Humanity or whatever.

An illusion, that only you can see, that you find in an Old God controlled Territory, that leads you to cripple the Lich King, and destroy his innocence, is an "incarnation of Arthas' Innocence"? Considering that the Old Gods' favorite tools are mental control and illusion to get their opponents to kill each other?

And who, of anybody, would know that the blood of Faceless ones would protect you from Arthas' Sight?

During the Yogg-Saron Fight(Judged by Sound Files on the PTR), he displays many examples of Old God Interference in the past, then says that you are no more likely to defeat the gods then Malygos/Deathwing/Llane/Ect.

Then he shows you an encounter of the Lich King Torturing somebody, which will probably be revealed when more then just SoundFiles are available.(Possibly the same person that Alexstrasza refers to at the wrath gate)

Does it not make sense that Matthias Lehner is an illusion of Yogg-Saron used to allow you to cripple an adversary, The Lich King, by hand guiding you through a process to destroy his heart?

Not going to the page to state this entire thing until someone says something, but I've removed all of the uncited statements on his page about him being the avatar of Arthas' remaining humanity.Drpancake 06:13, 18 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Obviously there is no clear-cut evidence either way, but it makes much more sense for him to be Arthas' humanity than a manifestation of the Old Gods. He is a young, blond child - rather like Arthas. And what best to represent the innocence and good of humanity than a child? Besides, it is stated that when Arthas tosses his heart, he discards his humanity along with it, and you find Matthias right next to the heart. ~My rage bar is blue and I start the fight pissed - Peregrine 23:00, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
 * He also fits the description of the young boy in Arthas's internal mental battle in the new novel. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 00:36, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
 * He seems fairly Suicidal if he is Arthas' Humanity, considering the quest text in the quest, Where he tells you to bring friends to destroy the heart.Drpancake
 * His Humanity is trying to stop the inhumane monster he has become. His humanity knows that the only way to stop the evil he has become, is for those who finally fight him to realize he is lost and not hesitate when it comes time to finish him. And he's already a ghost, its already dead, no need to worry about being suicidal.Anguloke (talk) 07:47, May 11, 2010 (UTC)

Icecrown Citadel encounter
Watching the Ashbringer origin part of Tales of the Past III, something came up to my mind. In the Warcraft Universe, everything has it's polar opposite: Light and Darkness, Hope and Despair, Good and Evil... even the souls of the living beings have their polar opposites fighting eachother to keep a balance inside each individual (the Ying-Yang).

But... what would happen when a dark individual like the Lich King commits his last act of evil and resigns to his vestige of goodness by pulling out and throwing away his heart?... When he did this, his soul finally splitted in two, retaining the Evil part within as the Lich King... and the Good part, the last vestige of humanity on him, taking the form of Matthias Lehner.

Now, for a being that holds within it the consciousness of the most cunning, intelligent, and ruthless individuals to ever live, as described by Darion Mograine, its expected that the final encounter with the Lich King will be against an entity that has control of almost every power existing in the Warcraft universe, powers he got from Ner'zhul, his former life as a Paladin, and the last, but not least important, the souls he absorbed with Frostmourne. The only entity that could defeat another of pure evil and bring order to chaos is it's polar opposite.

Players won't be able to kill the Lich King, not even the wielder of Ashbringer. They'll just weak Arthas enough for Matthias Lehner to merge with his Evil counterpart and destroy the Lich King from within.Orisai (talk) 18:19, 12 August 2009 (UTC)


 * It seems rather doubtful that, if Matthis is the Avatar of Arthas' Innocence, that he's even alive, considering his heart has been destroyed.Drpancake