Talk:Blood knight/Analysis

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Angry Ogre, you are aware that the only reason the Horde and the Alliance are apposed on World of Warcraft in the first place is because Admiral Proudmoore, A Human, openly violated the peice treaty to mindlessly kill the Orcs. The Orcs, meanwhile, were able to discard there old hatreds and even battle against there former masters all for freedom of there people and liberation from the very evil you call them. Does that, by your definition, make the Humans evil and the orcs good?

Why does Thrall let in blood knights?
Can anyone explain why Thrall has let in(and is even pleased by) evil mockeries of a paladins who obtain through their power through evil(its pratically a class requirement to be evil). Unless anyone can give a Valid reason against it,this belongs in the controversy section. Angry ogre 17:45, 15 February 2007 (EST)


 * I'll just make it clear, this is still lore, and this is still a fact, irregardless of if it's controversial. So yes, it should be brought up under controversy, but it should also be in the main article. Anyways, while i agree with you (not your points at all, just the underlying issue), i'll give you a possible explanation. Thrall, as leader of the Horde, does not have a say in the society and practices of the Blood Elves or any other faction within it. The same argument could be made against Forsaken, but overall he must have considered this moral issues to be minor over that of the benefits an alliance with them could bring. If it's going under controversy, it deserves a counter argument, and that's the best one i can come up with. -- Zeal  talk   contr  web 00:11, 16 February 2007 (EST)


 * I removed these comments because they fall under the same questions we've been going over, and Ragestorm declared the topic closed. However, since at least one sane person thought to respond, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now. ~


 * This has been discussed before, and several options came up. One was simply that Thrall did not care. He's warmed to the Forsaken and their off-beat ways of doing things, what's wrong with some rogue blood elves? The second was that he doesn't know, or doesn't know the extent of their methods. The simple fact remains that this is not addressed in game in any form that we know of yet. The blood elf quest where you speak to Thrall only welcomes the blood elves into the Horde, but it has nothing to say about paladins. At the moment, this is already addressed in Blood elf controversy. I'll put a link to the section pertaining to paladins, but any further information is redundant at this point. 00:24, 16 February 2007 (EST)


 * Taken from Blizzard own website "Although Warchief Thrall and High Chieftain Cairne Bloodhoof openly opposed the blood elves' methods, they recognized the Blood Knights' strategic value. Indeed, it is likely that the group figured heavily in the Horde's ultimate decision to offer membership to the blood elves." The old Thrall would have kicked these clowns out of the horde or killed them like Burx. At the very least,the old Thrall would have freed the leper gnomes and M'ruu,having experienced the evils of slavery,the might of the horde could easily take on a bunch of weak magisters. Personally I think the moron who invented blood knights ASSumed that Horde was evil and that everyone would want to play EVILL paladins. Angry ogre


 * And? That proves nothing except what both me and Montag said. The rest is merely your opions Angry Ogre, and while they are valid concern for controversy, it doesn't change what its, so what are you even asking for? -- Zeal  talk   contr  web 01:06, 16 February 2007 (EST)


 * Thrall has always been a fair minded orc. He gives people a chance before he judges them, because he himself was judged as a child for his difference in appearance from the humans. He went through very diplomatic means before he settled on attacking Admiral Proudmoore, in order to give the humans a chance to retreat and atone. He did not judge the Tauren based on appearance, as certainly the humans would have. He even agreed to work with his sworn enemies at the Battle of Mount Hyjal. Thrall values function over form -- he considers something's strategic worth over pettier things, and apparently the moral ambiguity of the blood elves is one of those petty things. 08:13, 16 February 2007 (EST)


 * By that logic Thrall should ally with Death knights. Face it blood knights were an attempt to make the horde the evil side. Quit denying the truth. Theres overwhelming evidence the horde is meant to be the evil side in Burning crusade.
 * Alliance get a cliche infalliable and holy race who oppose the horde. By comparison alone the horde is now evil.
 * Alliance race gets real shamans
 * Horde race is composed of demonic crack addicts and is called evil by blizzard several times.
 * Horde race creates mockladins by raping an angel.
 * Blood elves have betrayed everyone they allied with
 * Metzen ended up hating his decision to make the Horde good and sympathetic, so hes making them evil in the Burning crusade. In other words Metzen has sent the Horde a valentine with the words "screw you" along with a picture of a middle finger. Thats what Metzen thinks of the horde. --Angry ogre 03:24, 20 February 2007 (EST)


 * All i'm reading is "Hi, i'm Angry Ogre, i like to make completely unfounded asumptions because i'm highly biased and don't bother to do my research and consider all sides of a topic" Just drop it already, you spew nothing but crap most of the time, and you're not gunna get anywhere with it by continuing on that path. -- Zeal  talk   contr  web 04:32, 20 February 2007 (EST)


 * Agreed. Your argument contains no logic. 11:19, 20 February 2007 (EST)

I'd also appreciate if you shared your own definition of "evil." 08:16, 16 February 2007 (EST)


 * those which are deliberately void of conscience, and show a wanton penchant for destruction. --Angry ogre 03:24, 20 February 2007 (EST)


 * That's actually quite a narrow view of "evil" for what you're describing. Nevertheless, are you aware that nearly every quest in the game for both factions involves killing something? ~


 * "Deliberately" is also a very charged word. It invokes the meaning of choice, which I must question in regard to your claims. The destruction of Quel'thalas was hardly the choice of the high elves. The increasingly narrow choice of allying with the naga or suffering under the humans became a choice of life over death, which is hardly difficult to make. In fact, you could even say Kael's decision to ally with Illidan was an extremely selfless and generous act that showed how far he was willing to go to cure his people of their addiction to magic. ~


 * But this brings us to your concept of "conscience." Seflessness like Kael's may not be included in your definition. However, the definition of the word itself is quite vapid. It simply means an inner voice that points one toward right versus wrong, but it suggest nothing about what "right" or "wrong" really is. Following a moral code might work, but that moral code need only be a set of rules -- there's nothing to stop those rules fom being traditionally "evil" in nature. Consider also that Blizzard aligns your perspective with a variety of factions in both episodes of Warcraft III ranging from quite good to quite evil in the traditional sense. It is their specific intention to question the concept of absolute right and wrong. So, while you could graft outside morality onto the Warcraft universe to jugde it, I do not believe it would be appropriate to do so. 11:19, 20 February 2007 (EST)

As much as I doubt this will even be heard by you, here goes the counterarguments against your claims, Ogre.

1. If one can be considered evil by comparison, would that not make angels evil by comparison to say, God? And would that also not make racists, murderers, abusers and the lot good in comparison to say, the Devil? Also, the Draenei are far from being infallible considering they are themselves racists against their devolved brethren, the Broken.

2. How does the Alliance getting 'real shamans' make the Horde evil?

3. Err, correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the Tauren and the Trolls completely against demonic magic? That's already two out of five of the Horde races. Also, the Orcs are now officially against demonic magic. Only a handful still practice it, hence it can't be generalized as something all Orcs do. The Forsaken don't really seem to care what form of magic their practitioners use. And as for Blood Elves, while it is tolerated, they do not exclusively consume demonic magic (rather, any kind of magic they can get their hands on, the Blood Knights are proof of this. If they were indeed only after demonic magic, they would not have cared to steal holy magic.) and are only doing so as a means of survival. As for Blizzard calling the Horde evil, please cite this claim.

4. Simply put, the Naaru are not angels. Also, there are technically no such thing as angels in Warcraft (as of yet). And while it may be true that Blood Elves are stealing the Naaru's magic, I would like to mention that there isn't any evidence of them torturing said Naaru and only that they are keeping him prisoner.

5. As for the Blood Elves betraying everyone they've allied to, I strongly disagree. The Blood Elves never intentionally 'betrayed' the Alliance. Instead, it was Garithos' treatment of them and leaving them ill-equipped to defend themselves which led them to ally with the Naga (an act which was not actually malicious towards the Alliance in its intent). And if you look back to the days they were High Elves, they is more evidence that these people were loyal. They joined the Alliance under the request of Lothar, the last descendant of the Arathi bloodline, a group of people the Elves swore loyalty to millennia ago. And during the Second War, the Elves only left after the Alliance after the war was over despite blaming the Alliance's poor leadership for causing the razing of their forests. If they were indeed traitorous, they would have left immediately rather than continue to serve. mr. peasant 15.50 20 February 2007 (GMT)

1.If Warcraft offered the players a choice of Facists and Demons. So if everyone in Azeroth was a Facist or a demon. The Facist would appear more heroic due to being the lesser of two evils. One never sees Draenei looking down on the broken,instead one always sees Draenei helping the broken and feeling pity for them.

2.If the Draenei had tortured an elemental to steal its powers then that would make blood knights look better. The fact that Draeni got shamans the correct way and the blood elves got paladins through evil. Makes the horde look like crap.

3.The naaru wouldn't give them the power of light when he was captured,so they had torture and take the light from him. What better way for Metzen to blatantly and completly vilify and demonize the blood elves then have to them torture an angel(yes metzen has said Naaru are the angels of Warcraft).The comparison to how Draenei got their shamans only makes things worse. 4.Metzen has said Naaru are the angels of Warcraft

5.The blood elves betrayed the alliance by siding the Naga and Illidan. They then betrayed Illidan by siding with the Burning Legion and then Outland blood elves betrayed Azeroth's blood elves. Also note the blood elves in Azashra betrayed Belgrom(the leader of the blood elves had even been in a relationship with Belgrom) and killed his friends. Also note that Drsyc called Blood elves evil,the blood knights mount was described as evil flavored,and their destiny is described. How much more proof do you need?!?

Simply put Metzen doesn't care about Horde players,he caters to the alliance. Stop licking his boots and see the truth. Angry ogre 15:22, 20 February 2007 (EST)

Angry Ogre is obviously a very pissed off ogre, but he's probably angry for good reasons. The Alliance are constantly shown as idyllic and peaceful and the Horde is beginning to show more of an edge of ruthlessness and evil. Blood Knights in particular are not necessarily evil, although it is suggested many are, but more in the lines of pragmatic. There is definately spite involved in the way they manipulate the Light, but it is also because they feel the old way they have used it has failed them, so it is a power to be taken by force. It is not a faith, but a tool to be studied and modified.

I think overall the Horde is a much more interesting faction with all the forced cooperation and tension between the races, but you have to understand that the Alliance and Horde races aren't comprised by ideas of good and evil. They are comprised by principles. The Alliance are made up of races struggling to survive against a faction that is bigger, stronger and much more menacing than them. The Horde are made up of races who have suffered greatly, and are the outcasts of the world. In many ways blood elves are the reverse of the orcs -- the orcs are an honorable race that have an evil cell within it working to undermine all that Thrall and the Earthen Council have done (Warlocks and rogues, who serve the Shadow Council), and the blood elves are a sinister race that have a benevolent cell within it working to reclaim the virtuous traditions of their past (Hunters and rogues, who belong to the Farstriders).

And according to the Behind-the-Scenes DVD, Chris Metzen states in an interview about the draenei that the naaru are a direct representation of angels in the WarCraft Universe. That was the intended portrayal they wanted to give to the audience. He also admitted to wanting to give the draenei a feeling of flawlessness, and blood elves as brutal but misled. For example, blood elves believed that the Light betrayed them in the Second and Third Wars, but Metzen has stated it is not true -- the Light never left them. So Angry, here's to you and me both hoping the next Horde race will be just as interesting, to add more drama and flavor to our treasured faction.

Those are my two cents, and hopefully, the two cents that will snag me a job at Blizzard one day. If you're reading Mr. Metzen you know how to reach me!

FOR THE HORDE!--Zexx 14:18, 20 February 2007 (EST)


 * Amen, brother. (And in the unlikely event that Metzen is reading this, I would like to make it clear that Zexx is among my finest protegés, and that most of us understand and the lore explanations provided and work with them.) Addendum: and most of us are aware that you are in full support of the Horde.-- Ragestorm  (talk &middot; contr) 18:11, 20 February 2007 (EST)

Here are things Metzen could do to fix the horde problem. Of course he's too lazy to do it.

1.Make the Draenei commit some great crime,this would also distance the draenei from Mary sues(chosen by gods,Infalliable,have fancy techonology,Main bad guy obessed with them,related to the main badguy,have inate powers over the light,physically flawless. These are all traits one finds in Mary sues. Definetly a race of complete Mary sues).

2.Give horde real paladins instead of the idiotic mockladins(its basicaly a class requirement to be evil).

3.Give Alliance a race like the Forsaken and blood elves.

4.Give Horde a non evil race like Mok'nathal or ogres

Too bad Metzen is too busy counting money to do any of these. Angry ogre 21:09, 20 February 2007 (EST)


 * Attempts to salvage conversation.:: Back to the topic at hand. Your original reason for restating the first post after I removed it was because it's about improving the article, which I agree with. In response, I included link to the main article on blood elf controversy, since your concerns about Thrall are addressed there. So, I think we're good on Thrall. 21:43, 20 February 2007 (EST)


 * The point is conceded, and this discussion is closed. Any users wishing to continue this conversation should do so on usertalks. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 23:09, 20 February 2007 (EST)

The Blood Knights and Blood Elf Religion
It seems to me that Kael'thas has been deified in the eyes of his people by Rommath as a savior who wil come and lead them to a promised land. That said, it's no wonder he has a set of Paladins totally devoted to him. The way they probably see it, their Great Deliverer probably went out to Outland to find them a Paradise, and in the process found and subdued the Holy Light which abandoned them and sent it too them so that they could have to power that was rightfully theirs. Of course, these are highborne, they think that all power is rightfully theirs. Why wouldn't their new god give them Holy Power. Meneldir

I dissagree, take the two protectors in Silvermoon. They speak against the movement toward violence and desperation. I believe that the Blood elves as a whole can be viewed along side the High elves they claim are gone. The High Elven race as it was in the First and Second Wars is effectively gone. Even if the Sunwell is restored. Their race as a whole has been awakened to their legacy of corruption. Kael is a figure of that corruption. It's easy to view the races of Warcraft as two dimensional, in truth there are tons of thought and idea poured into them. Many Blood elves are Blood elves only because Kael came home, cleaned house, then disappeared into the nether. These Blood elves face further rejection if they voice their opposition. They would be treated like all High elves are treated within the Alliance. Untrusted by all, including those of your own kind. With the Night elves pointing fingers and Humans shooting unapproving glances, many simply defect altogether. And now point. If Kael was the god-figure head. We wouldn't but discussing the possibilities of any Blood elves rising against him. He would be idolized in their view and the Scryers wouldn't exist. As for the Blood Knights, I see two factions, those who serve Kael and Liadrin, and those who are having second thoughts. It's my opinion that Blood Elves truly can grasp hold of the Holy Light with enough physical force to become palidans, but because of their drive for vengeance. Until now, High elves had little to fight for, thus few would aspire to be anything more then a simple priest of the Light. Time and an Expansion will tell. --Rush 08:02, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Chances are, we will not see the Blood Knight or Lady Liadrin's stance on Kael'Thas until Patch 2.4's Sunwell Plateau Instance, or sub-patches leading up to it. Until this point, all In-Game Lore tells us about the Blood Knights is that their main purpose is the security of Silvermoon, namely kicking Scourge ass. From the TCG quotes I've seen on Blood Elf Paladin cards, many seem to divert their vengence against the Scourge rather than the Legion. Azerothien Blood Knights probably couldn't really care less about Kael, only praising him for sending back M'uru as a weapon against the Scourge. Blood Knights who crossed the Dark Portal will face the similar dilemma all Blood Elf Pilgrims face. Sha'tar or Kael. It is an individual choice rather than that of an entire Order. Also, singing praises about a leader and about how he/she will lead them to paradise doesn't nessesarily mean deitifying that particular leader. Similar claims about "freedom" spread among the Orcish Horde when Thrall came to power, "liberation" among the Forsaken when Sylvanas christened them. Apparently, the slogan that appeared the most convinient for Kael would be "paradise". I'd liken whats happening to the Blood Elves to be more of a "Cult of Personality" than a "Blood Elf Religion". --Invin Dranoel 20:13, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

1st, there is no comparison between the High Elves and the Blood Elves. The High Elves, while stereotypically more sane, are a broken, diasporic people, scattered into the world of Humans more than anyone, their hosts distrusting them, with only the Wildhammers being real friends to them. They are no longer a power or unified people. Arthas pronounced the death of their race, and it will be a slow death as their people and culture are absorbed into either humanity or death. Unless they can find a gathering point they will likely (and slowly) breed into the humans until the last generation of High Elves dies (hundreds of years from now), and then a few generations of Half-Elves until there are families of humans who clame elvish blood. The Blood Elves are fighting this, rallying to Quel'thalas and Outland, to a people and a culture. Rommath's message of Kael'thas, while destructive, has saved the people from the fate of the High Elves, at a very grievous price. The Blood Elves are a unified people, with culture, purpose and power. On the individual level, the High Elves may be better off, but on the society level, the Blood Elves are beginning to thrive.

I agree that we won't know for sure what the BE reaction to Kael's actions are until after 2.4, if even then (I hope so, but there's a deep dark fear in the back of my mind that we won't even report to anyone in the city, hopefully this Shattererd Sun Offensive sends us in). While I do agree that the a Blood Elf (as an individual) can be whatever alignment he or she chooses, as a group, and as a society, the trends in Silvermoon are not entirely positive. Upon reaching Outland, they do make a choice as to where their loyalties lie, the true test of character, and many test well.

Now, I acknowledge that my theory of the Deified Kael is speculative, but it seems to fit the bill fairly well. I would compare it to how the Highborne (and up until the war, the rest of the NE's) venerated Azshara. The titles are there, and they think he's leading them to paradise. Come on now. The church of the Holy Light does apparently still exist in Silvermoon to a point, but Kael's message of deliverance seems to have more of a hold on the public. Likely, this is a more believable to many of the Blood Elves than an abstract belief in the Holy Light, which they believe abandoned them during the war. This is probably an indicator of how spiritual these people are. So you are probably right, this isn't necessarily a religion, but what happens when you stop trusting the religion as much. Meneldir