Wowpedia talk:Village pump/Archive09

Build Revisions
Due to the new 41-point talents, Wowhead's link code has changed, invalidating all the build links. Plus, new builds are needed now. Hopefully I can get some work done on the Priest builds page, but not being another class, wouldn't know where to begin with the others.

Qii 11:02, 7 December 2006 (EST)

Edit: Most, but not all. Strange... Qii 11:17, 7 December 2006 (EST)

Quest Templates
I honestly think how quests look now are terrible. Why not just have a little infobox in the corner that explains the level obtained, the level of the quest, the reward (exp only, I think items might get a bit hectic) and possibly who to hand it into and who gives the quest? At the moment they are large, bulky headings with one number/word underneath them. Change it up, I say.

Edit: An example quest: Brutal Armor--Suspchaos 06:37, 22 November 2006 (EST)


 * I like the idea. If we could come up with a sexy looking infobox, I say we should start going for it.--Hobinheim 07:45, 22 November 2006 (EST)


 * You mean like a quest tooltip? :-)  09:51, 22 November 2006 (EST)


 * Am liking that tooltip! 13:07, 22 November 2006 (EST)


 * I orginally created the Quest:Brutal_Armor page a long time ago when there was an old quest boilerplate. There's a new quest boilerplate that includes the tooltip box. All new quests should use this new boilerplate. - ClydeJr 12:34, 23 November 2006 (EST)


 * I'm working on a questbox template for the quests.--Hobinheim 21:49, 23 November 2006 (EST)

To see what it would look like in use, check out (Horde),  (Alliance), and  (Neutral). Also, that's as sexalacious as I could make it. I don't think we have support for conditional templates. And I did sorta kinda think of a solution for that, but the difficulty of use far out-weighed a couple of "None" stubs. See the actual template Template:Questbox to see what happens when you don't specify values for certain fields.--Hobinheim 23:43, 23 November 2006 (EST)


 * Actually, we do have conditional templates -- check out,  , and  .  This would be good for lines like:


 * This would display any text provided as a quest link, but would omit that line entirely if one isn't specified.  10:25, 24 November 2006 (EST)


 * Slowly folding it in since the syntax is a little finicky, but I wanted to say it works amazingly well! We now have conditional gold and I can definitely make these templates more sexalacious. I tried reading up on how they work, but it just boggles the mind really. Either way, it's fantastic. --Hobinheim 17:59, 25 November 2006 (EST)


 * Conditionals and infoboxes are sooooooo nice. Dark, there's some minor issues with your syntax, mostly because of the dual role | plays.  Here's a better version of the same thing: --Tekkub 18:51, 25 November 2006 (EST)

|-


 * I'm liking the tooltip. Suggestion - add a Repeatable (Yes/No) line. - Phelddagrif 01:46, 1 December 2006 (EST)
 * I've started using this tooltip in a few Hillsbrad quest chains, in particular the Elixir of Agony quest line. Looks great so far. I also think there should be a way of marking the quest as repeatable, and maybe a location marker as well. --Mikaka 22:10, 2 December 2006 (EST)


 * I'm working on the repeatable part... But what did you mean by location marker? There are start and end fields, which link to NPCs or objects. That should be enough to specify locations. Anything more detailed that than should be in the article's body. Also, I added a field for heading, which is the precise heading that the quest appears under in the questlog. Usually a zone, dungeon, or class. --Hobinheim 21:01, 7 December 2006 (EST)


 * The field "repeatable" has been added. The only value it should have is "Yes". --Hobinheim 21:43, 7 December 2006 (EST)


 * By location, I meant the region in which the quest is filed under, so I guess the Heading. More precise detail obviously should be located in the article, but the region or dungeon or whatever should at least appear in the tooltip. --Mikaka 04:17, 8 December 2006 (EST)


 * Right, use "heading". All the most up to date documention for the template can found at the template page. See questbox. --Hobinheim 07:39, 8 December 2006 (EST)

Tradeskill categories
Okay I've been reworking and rethinking a lot the tradeskill item categories... my main idea was to make the category subdivided into Items needed for the tradeskill, Items obtained by the tradeskill, Tools needed for the tradeskill, Recipes for the tradeskill. With the exception of mining which has an additionnal category splitting Category:Mined Items and Category:Smelting Product.

This should go as such, in italic names needing rework:

Any ideas, proposals? --Adys 13:31, 22 November 2006 (EST)


 * Nice idea, but whos idea is this, no signature! 13:15, 22 November 2006 (EST)
 * Gha, sorry ;) --Adys 13:31, 22 November 2006 (EST)
 * I see who it is now, yeah I think it is a nice idea. 16:33, 22 November 2006 (EST)
 * Looks good to me. I do think you need to have additional cats for all the production specialties like armorsmithing, weaponsmithing, etc. I know I already created cats for those (example: Category:Armorsmithing) but you might want to change the name to something that works better, maybe something like Category:Blacksmithing:Armorsmithing or something like that.
 * Just curious but how are items supposed to fix in the cats? For example: Peacebloom. Would it would go under all 4 of Alchemy, Alchemy Ingredients, Herbalism, and Gathered Items? - ClydeJr 16:14, 23 November 2006 (EST)
 * No, something that is in a subcategory shouldn't go in the category of the subcategory (example: Category:Items has as subcategory Category:Equipment, which has as subcategory Category:Weapons, which has as subcategory Category:Ranged Weapons, which has as subcategory Category:Guns. Even though Gurubashi Dwarf Destroyer would fit in all these categories, we are letting it only in Category:Guns. :P
 * Peacebloom would go in Category:Alchemy Ingredients (subcat of Alchemy) and Category:Gathered Items (subcat of Herbalism). However, I'm trying to figure out a better name for the Gathered Items category. Something that would make sence I mean :-P --Adys 19:35, 23 November 2006 (EST)
 * Category:Gathered Herbs? Although I can only think of one Category:Herbs that isn't gathered... --Karrion 21:07, 23 November 2006 (EST)

Help:Item articles
Okay... Well the truth is Help:Item articles is completely buggered after the edit for some small tooltip thing. You cannot use   because of what has been changed, and when you copy and paste it, for some reason it has   tags all over things. It really needs to be sorted, sorry for this rant and rave... 11:03, 22 November 2006 (EST)
 * Might be me, but I can't see the problem. The no-includes make things, well, not included when subst'd, so you can just delete them. -- T inker  er  11:17, 22 November 2006 (EST)
 * Yeah, that is what the no includes are supposed to be for, but the   doesn't work; it shows a small tooltip, and not the full template. 13:00, 22 November 2006 (EST)
 * Logical, because of the tooltip thing invented here. If you want the Boilerplate, just copy and paste the whole thing. -- T inker  er  13:01, 22 November 2006 (EST)


 * Which defeats the object of  , what I am trying to say is, why wasn't the tooltip invention on a new page? Like Help:Item articles/Tooltip or something to that effect? 13:06, 22 November 2006 (EST)
 * How about that? Use and it copypastes the code there. You will just have to remake the noinclude tags. --Adys 13:43, 22 November 2006 (EST)
 * Bull3t: Because that'd destroy the tooltips. One loose subst doesn't destroy them all :p -- T inker  er  13:47, 22 November 2006 (EST)


 * Meh, I see, thanks for doing that though Adys! 15:39, 22 November 2006 (EST)
 * The whole shebang can be redone without noincludes if you guys want... and it might be a better route in the end. Simple solution, move the tooltip to a seperate page Cyclone Shoulderplates/Tooltip and transclude that into the main item page.  This means if someone wants the tooltip in their page they have to grab that subpage instead of the main item page.  Mikk and I decided on this route because it's easier to manage with a bot uploading data dumped frm the game.  You'll notice all the T4 set items I've put up used this method... and yes I think it's working quite well.  In the end it just means you'll have to create more than one page for an item.
 * Also, we're trying some other subpages, like /Icon and /Price. This lets pages and templates get specific data they need about an item.  For example Quartermaster_Davian_Vaclav's item table is built from these transcluded pages.  It's a really nifty way for us to built a database of item info, instead of just static item pages that are hard for a bot to add/update.  --Tekkub 21:50, 22 November 2006 (EST)


 * Yeah, I think transcluded pages are a very nice idea, but at the moment the transcluded pages are not categorised, I am currently debating whether I should add them all to Category:Transcludable pages and make a template called transclude, so that it adds a bar on the transclusion pages, " " and "  " can both be added to the bot exception list (so that it will not read those lines for anything), shouldn't be too hard. 10:47, 23 November 2006 (EST)


 * Oh boy. The next time I see a transcludable page with nothing in it but 8g (see: Transcludable/Alchemist's Stone cost) I'm going to scream. Qii 17:41, 15 December 2006 (EST)

Server Crashes?
Well... The Wiki was going rather slow earlier, and was, at times, not loading pages. Was wondering whether we had server crahses or errors? 15:41, 22 November 2006 (EST)

Attack Power for Druids
Looking at the wowwiki info the following formula is given for Druid Attack Power in Cat form:

AP = (STR * 2) - 20 + (Character Level * 2) + AGI

So for my level 55 Druid with all equipment removed and in Cat form I should have an AP of

(68 * 2) - 20 + (55 * 2) + 60 = 286

Looking in the Character Panel, can anyone explain why I see my Melee Attack Power value as 368? A difference of +82

The discrepency also continues when I have my equipment in place. The value, according to the wowwiki formula shoud be:

(122 * 2) -20 + (55 * 2) + 266 = 600

The value in the Character Panel under Melee Attack Power is now 682

Again a difference of +82

Well, at least the difference is constant!

BTW - no Buffs, Potions, Blessings etc. were in place when these numbers were recorded other than the bonuses introduced by my equipment in the second set of figures ofc.

Is it the case that Attack Power is not the same as Melee Attack Power and I am looking at this the wrong way?

As is obvious, I am somewhat confused......

.....but no longer! Prompted by Tinker's thoughts (below) I went and checked my Talents. I have 3/3 points in Predatory Strikes which: Increases your melee attack power in Cat ... Forms by 150% of your level 55 x 150% = 82.5, which appears to supply the additional (constant) +82.

---Ych 09:17, 23 November 2006 (EST)
 * Someone who has a druid would need to double-check, but if it's +82 everywhere it's quite easy to solve, right? :) Also, did you spec something before testing? -- T inker  er  09:36, 23 November 2006 (EST)

Transcluded Pages
I think transcluded pages are a very nice idea, but at the moment the transcluded pages are not categorised, I am currently debating whether I should add them all to Category:Transcluded Pages and make a template called transclude, so that it adds a bar on the transclusion pages, " " and "  " can both be added to the bot exception list (so that it will not read those lines for anything), shouldn't be too hard. 11:01, 23 November 2006 (EST)
 * Template might be a PITA, because you're going to want it to not transclude from your transcludable page :) Perhaps we should make more specific categories, like Item Tooltips, Item Prices, etc?  --Tekkub 14:00, 23 November 2006 (EST)
 * PITA? I don't follow. 02:33, 24 November 2006 (EST)


 * Pain in the ass.--Hobinheim 03:37, 24 November 2006 (EST)
 * People for the Insane Tickling of Animals --Tekkub 09:50, 24 November 2006 (EST)
 * Pwning Instances Totally Amazingly.-- K )  (talk) 10:25, 24 November 2006 (EST)
 * Okay, I think I get the message... Anyway, I never thought of transcluding the parts you don't want, I suppose would not work? Hmm... Maybe it wasn't such a good idea. 10:28, 24 November 2006 (EST)
 * Hum, I guess you could just wrap the template call in noincludes...  ... that would prolly work... --Tekkub 11:06, 24 November 2006 (EST)
 * Yeah, noinclude works! Woo, I might go ahead and make that template, and start adding it, unless anyone has an objection? 11:35, 24 November 2006 (EST)
 * Okay! The template is created: mother page name/page it is used on it will always have to look like that, unless someone else, or I can figure out a better way to include the page name. Use   to add the template safely. The category is Category:Transcludable pages. 11:48, 24 November 2006 (EST)
 * Looks great, I'll make sure I add that to new pages I put up. --Tekkub 14:31, 24 November 2006 (EST)

Guild
Hello=) I would like to join The guild Iam a 60 warrior full protection specc and im intressted to raid and meat friends :P and get a good gear. I think our guild is intressted and i like the name;:P --Smaskig 14:42, 23 November 2006 (EST)--Smaskig 14:42, 23 November 2006 (EST)Smaskig
 * Eh? -- T inker  er  14:50, 23 November 2006 (EST)
 * Eh, is exactly what I was thinking, Smaskig this is not a guild recruitment website, it is a Wiki. 14:58, 23 November 2006 (EST)


 * Like the name? What name? 00:02, 24 November 2006 (EST)

Reading and Editing Public Notes
Im trying to make a Guild addon that will tell me if a member of a certain rank in the guild has his Public Note set.

What wonders me is that if i take the GetGuildRosterInfo(index) on a member and print it directly i will get all informations on him. (Name RankAsNumber Level RankAsText PublicNote) But if i store it in a Variable before printing it will only contain his name ??

I have also set a members Public note with GuildRosterSetPublicNote(index, "note") and that works fine but isnt there a Get function also?

so summasumarum How do i get the Rank and Public Note of the indexed Guild Member?

--Mirania 17:28, 24 November 2006 (EST)


 * local name, rank, rankIndex, level, class, zone, note, officernote, online, status = GetGuildRosterInfo(index); will assign the values to the variables name, rank, note etc... --Karrion 18:21, 24 November 2006 (EST)


 * Alternatively, "local data = {GetGuildRosterInfo(index)};"  23:29, 24 November 2006 (EST)
 * That method is rather wasteful however, and can cause a lot of garbage generation if used too much. Karrion's method is better if your using this on more than a handful of calls.  --Tekkub 08:58, 25 November 2006 (EST)

Thumbnailer Bot
Okay, as many of you may have seen the Recent Changes list is being spammed by me, that is because I have made an application that acts as a bot to thumbnail all the images under the NPC sections. It works very well as of now and is fast, so basically if you see my edits on the Recent Changes list, you know they are going to be legitemate, so just skim over them if you are RC Patrolling... Hehe. At the moment it does around 15-20 pages a minute, fast! 06:26, 25 November 2006 (EST)
 * Might be nice to mark it as a bot ;) -- T inker  er  11:10, 25 November 2006 (EST)
 * Hmm.. How would I do that, also, it logs in as me at the moment... 11:44, 25 November 2006 (EST)
 * Well, it's done now, so I presume it isn't of much use at the moment.. You can, however, make an account for the bot and make it log in on that :) -- T inker  er  11:49, 25 November 2006 (EST)
 * But then I wouldn't get the contribution count, haha :D! How would I go about adding it as a bot anyway, because I can use it elsewhere too, once I had added more to the program I may release it... 11:50, 25 November 2006 (EST)
 * Wowpedia:Bots -- T inker  er  12:00, 25 November 2006 (EST)
 * It says don't bother applying if you are not going to be making massive edits, but I think it is a little late to create a new one now, because I have finished one of the main massive ones, not sure whether I will be doing more edits like that, but I doubt it, my bot will probably be used for small edits that I am too lazy to do myself, heh. 12:11, 25 November 2006 (EST)
 * Alright :) *getting cuious about the bot now* -- T inker  er  12:26, 25 November 2006 (EST)
 * Hehe, well I will give you a shot of the scripting you can do so far:

Browse("http://www.wowpedia.org/index.php?title=Special:Userlogin&action=submitlogin"); SetInputField(0, "wpName", "USERNAME"); SetInputField(0, "wpPassword", "PASSWORD"); Submit(0); Pause(2000); Browse("http://www.wowpedia.org/Main_Page"); Pause(1000); Browse("http://www.wowpedia.org/index.php?title=User:Bull3t&action=edit"); GetInputField(0, "wpTextbox1", ""); SetInputField(0, "wpTextbox1", GetInputField & "User:Bull3t Was ere!"); Sumbit(0);
 * 1) Script: Initialized
 * 1) Information: Logging in...
 * 1) Information: Logged in.
 * 1) Information: Running script...
 * 1) Script: End
 * Basically, this logs into the Wiki, by navigating to the WoWWiki login page, enters your username and password into the boxes, submits the form (logs in) waits for 2 seconds redirects to the Wiki Main Page, waits for 1 second and begins the script. The script browses to the edit page of User:Bull3t (this bit I need to automate more) reads what is in the source code box and adds "User:Bull3t Was ere!" to the end of it all, then saves it. I need to automate more of these features and functions before I can release it though. 13:05, 25 November 2006 (EST)
 * Very nice. Should give this a shot myself sometime :) -- T inker  er  13:17, 25 November 2006 (EST)
 * Forgot to say; That script is read by a Visual Basic coded program that I wrote, it then carries out the commands on the script as if they were part of the program itself. 14:08, 25 November 2006 (EST)

Hmm more after the fact stuff... I did pretty much the same thing, to assist with his project... Now would be a really good time to apply for a bot account. I'm already tired of me nuking the recent changes list... =( But my edits are clearly marked, especially when I just let the bot go wild. Normally I sit there and approve each change. --Hobinheim 17:41, 25 November 2006 (EST)


 * I just realized something... If all the mass edits I make get counted towards the bot, I won't get those post awards as fast, haha. --Hobinheim 17:50, 25 November 2006 (EST)


 * Okely dokely, I created a new account. Could I get it flagged as a bot? The name is Hobinbot. --Hobinheim 17:50, 25 November 2006 (EST)


 * Get it tagged by applying, here: Wowpedia:Bots. I just had a thought aswell... The problem with making my bot as easy as it is too code, if it gets into the wrong hands then it is easy to vandalise 10+ pages per minute! Hmm... 03:26, 26 November 2006 (EST)


 * That's what mass reverts are for :-p --Adys 03:33, 26 November 2006 (EST)
 * I see... Didn't know you could do mass reverts. Hehe, that's good. 03:44, 26 November 2006 (EST)

I just got User:Hobinbot approved for the bot group. In fact, I made some edits right now, but they should be hidden, by default, from the recent changes list. --Hobinheim 20:46, 28 November 2006 (EST)

Image Linking
Is there not a way to embed an image into a page, that does not link anywhere? 09:07, 25 November 2006 (EST)
 * I don't think so, no - why would you want that? -- T inker  er  11:09, 25 November 2006 (EST)
 * For Template:Wowbox it has the corners, but they are linked to the image, which is quite annoying. 11:45, 25 November 2006 (EST)
 * Ah, yes, I can see that.. I have no idea about how to solve it though, except for making it script-based (without images)... That'd make it look worse, though. -- T inker  er  11:48, 25 November 2006 (EST)
 * Meh, I will leave it then. 11:52, 25 November 2006 (EST)

Class-specific epic quests
I started a new category: Epic_Quests to collect all the information on the class-specific epic quests like Anathema. I'm wondering if it might have been better named Category:Class-specific Epic Quests, though. Thoughts? Also, if there's more epic quests I didn't know to link in, please add to them.--Bobson 23:05, 25 November 2006 (EST)
 * There are so few of those "epic quests" that you might as well combine them all together. Seems okay like this :-) -- T inker  er  13:00, 26 November 2006 (EST)

Lua and Mysql
So i know it is not possible to write in Realtime OUT of world of warcraft. BUT!

Is it possible to read?

I want to write an addon that compares online members to a forum memberlist on a website. ie. i wanna check if my guildies have registered on the guild website.

ive been searching around and found MyLua and LuaSocket and LuaSQL. Only LuaSocket seems to be able to but im not that hardcore that i can tell for sure.

So. Can i access an external DB for READ purpose only and store what i read in variables?

Tx.

sry for double post.. no headline.. --Mirania 08:18, 27 November 2006 (EST)


 * Not possible. In order for you to read something, it has to be written out. WoW makes copies of all the saved variable stuff in memory and uses those until you make a clean shutdown. If you've ever had your client crash (and skip the saving phase), you'll notice none of your preferences have been saved (except for the ones that are stored online). --Hobinheim 10:39, 27 November 2006 (EST)
 * You can delete the 2nd post... its a wiki. I removed it for ya. --Colinstu 16:12, 27 November 2006 (EST)
 * What you can do is write an external application that accesses your db and writes the results as a lua file into the directory of your wow mod, and when you reload your ui it will load whatever you wrote into that lua file (in your example assign a variable all members of your forum) and then you can work with the stuff that came originally from your db --Pupapaya 18:24, 27 November 2006 (EST)

Battleground Ranks and Honor
I'm not sure if you all have seen this, and found it unreliable, but the page on Ranks and Honor (requirements on points to make ranks) are incorrect. Before I signed up I actually used them, they didn't seem correct so I contacted a GM and he explained to me that there are no requirements. Which would mean we should remove that information from the page. You don't have to, but that's my best suggestion.

--General Zeus 08:24, 27 November 2006 (EST)
 * Can you link the page you're referring to? I don't see what you're talking about. --Bobson 08:46, 27 November 2006 (EST)
 * I believe this is what he is referring to Formulas:Honor System. --Dracomage 11:54, 27 November 2006 (EST)
 * I'm not sure how much worth it will be to try to fix this since the next patch is going to do away with the current honor/rank system. I would say just hold off until the new system appears, document the new system, and then archive off the info on the old system. - ClydeJr 16:05, 27 November 2006 (EST)

WoW TCG Adding the cards?
So, recently the World of Warcraft TCG has been released. I myself have gotten pretty strongly in it and am really enjoying it, but I need a source to get a list of every single card.

Now I can do the work it takes to add every card to the wiki, with a scan and a retype of the text. Currently we only have an incomplete setlist with information which is in many cases even wrong.

Many players will enjoy this, because it does happen to have new small snippets of lore.

However, how much am allowed to scan in due to copyright rules? Your thoughts on this please!

--Patrigan Lvl 60 lock EU-Shattered Hand 15:35, 27 November 2006 (EST)


 * I'd think no pictures and no rules text. Just the card name and any flavor text, maybe with a short description of the ability if it's relevant to the lore. --Bobson 08:12, 29 November 2006 (EST)


 * That seems so Useless... I mean, we have things from Warcraft3 and Warcraft Books, so why not the cards as well? --Patrigan Lvl 60 lock EU-Shattered Hand 17:55, 29 November 2006 (EST)


 * My thought is that we don't have enough information on here to play WCIII or the RPG, and we don't have the full text of any of the books. Thus we put up info on the cards, but not enough to play without actually owning them. --Bobson 13:21, 29 November 2006 (EST)


 * What about adding a rulepage then? Also holding every rulechange and individual errata on the cards? Some cards have gotten errata already and visiting the WoWwiki pages about it should clear things up for them. --Patrigan Lvl 60 lock EU-Shattered Hand 21:44, 29 November 2006 (EST)


 * Ya got me. I know there's sites out there with databases of all M:tG cards.  Someone else weigh in on this issue, please? --Bobson 08:27, 30 November 2006 (EST)


 * I'm not a lawyer; this is not legal advice. AFAIK it is ok if you give them credit.  Go ahead and put it up, the worst they will do is ask you to take it down.  Don't really see that happening though, it is free publicity for them to have it posted. --Emit 13:02, 1 December 2006 (EST)

Database error... to the face!
I've gotten a bunch of these. Something going down on the server? Any note on how long it'll be? 13:50, 28 November 2006 (EST)
 * Editing or something seems to help. This is the error:

A database query syntax error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software. The last attempted database query was: (SQL query hidden) from within function "MediaWikiBagOStuff::_doinsert". MySQL returned error "126: Incorrect key file for table './wowwiki/objectcache.MYI'; try to repair it (localhost)". -- T inker  er  14:28, 28 November 2006 (EST)


 * I get the error after editing sometimes, but I can still look at and edit the source. ::Shrug.::


 * It has completely gone down now, what is going on? 14:32, 28 November 2006 (EST)


 * I've had a bunch of these errors as well, Usually refreshing the page, or finding a different link to it works for me. --Fusk 16:30, 28 November 2006 (EST)

Profession Guides
1-300_Profession_Guides Does anyone think it would be more productive to delete this section, and put the guides under the already made profession pages? I have been working on a bunch of Prof guides, and imo it would be easier if they were listed under the profession page. Let me know what ya think, I'll start typin out the guides so I can just Copy+Paste to where ever you think is best.

--Fusk 13:54, 28 November 2006 (EST)


 * Agreed. Best to keep this info on the relevant pages instead of centralized. 16:37, 28 November 2006 (EST)


 * I'll second that. There's no informative reason to have information on 1-300 in alchemy along with 1-300 in blacksmithing. No one is ever going to need to read both in a row (they may want to because they have both a blacksmith and an alchemist, but that's a different story). We may not want to dump the whole guide onto the profession page, though.  Better to just separate them each to their own page and provide a link. Then we can link to multiple guides. Yours, the current ones, anyone else's... Or we could just have one page with all the alchemy guides, like we have one page for all of each class' builds. --Bobson 08:27, 29 November 2006 (EST)

I'm not very good at laying things out on my own. If someone wants to create the pages and links off of each Prof page, I can fill in the guides. Or atleast for 1, I can do the rest after that. Fusk 9:54, 29 November 2006 (EST)

Calling any BC beta testers!!
Terror Guard Greaves It shows double +stam on those. Is that how they are supposed to be, or is one of them supposed to be a different stat? Just trying to keep everything as up to date and correct as possible.

-To any BC Beta testers: your doing a great job on putting in info on the BC!!

--Fusk 16:26, 28 November 2006 (EST)


 * I think one of those is probably Agility. But, I'm no beta tester, so I won't change it. 16:40, 28 November 2006 (EST)
 * Yes, one was supposed to be agility. I will change it now. Sam Weber 17:10, 28 November 2006 (EST)

Thanks! 10:21, 29, November 2006 (GMT)

Powerleveling
OK, whats the communities feeling on a series of pages on powerleveling? In other words something similar to the guides that are available across the net?

I know the alliance side pretty well, have a few of the guides handy too, and figure that by combining my experience and the information from many of the guides, thotbot, and others, we could have a pretty good series of pages.

The only part I am confused about and would need help with is, how to format it. Should it be a category of its own? Something like Powerleveling.Alliance.Levels X-Y. I could create pages for specific level ranges or by area, though some areas are best revisited at different levels.

The quests would have to of course exist in WoWWiki with a little more detail that we have now. The main missing ingredient is that for most quests is the map coordinates for various parts of the quests.

Comments?

--Sharlin 05:49, 29 November 2006 (EST)


 * I'd love to see it. As far as naming, I'd suggest a Powerleveling page, with sub pages Powerleveling/Alliance and Powerleveling/Horde, unless you'd rather break it down by race.  Level ranges can just be sections of those pages.  If that would make the pages too long, you can break it down further, maybe with Powerleveling/Alliance/1-10 and the like. Don't forget to use Breadcrumbs! --Bobson 08:22, 29 November 2006 (EST)


 * Nice idea, not sure what the rules are on posting guides like this, I have compiled a small Gold Guide that I am unsure of whether it can be added. Meh, they can always be deleted if it isn't right, or is frowned upon. 10:37, 29 November 2006 (EST)


 * I dont see the problem if the ways are legal oO --Adys 10:48, 29 November 2006 (EST)
 * You might want to read this if you haven't used subpages before. --Bobson 12:09, 29 November 2006 (EST)

Be sure to define powerleveling in its own page, and use existing material before creating your own. And I don't think powerleveling is expansive enough to merit its own category. There's a guides category, it can go there. --Hobinheim 11:55, 29 November 2006 (EST)


 * Didn't know Category:Guides existed, meh Powerlevel Blacksmithing and Powerlevel Tailoring exist so I don't see why Powerleveling shouldn't, go ahead and create it. May also add my gold guide later too. 13:35, 29 November 2006 (EST)


 * If your information is specific to a class, you might want to put it in each class's respective page. General powerleveling tips can go in Powerleveling, though. If the guides for each faction become expansive, try Powerleveling (Horde) and Powereleveing (Alliance) as main articles for those factions and keep general tips in Powerleveling. 15:14, 29 November 2006 (EST)

Sounds like a great idea, i have some guides I have written for leveling :) Although i feel it should be called Leveling Guides, not powerleveling... Powerleveling sounds too much like chinease power levelers --Thursday 20:47, 29 November 2006 (EST)
 * Well I started with a new Powerleveling page. The discussion portion was marked too quickly for my taste stating that a merge of it needs to take place with an exisitng page, Power Leveling.  I would prefer to hold off until the page has been properly established (I haven't the time during work to make a real run of it)


 * Too be honest the style of your "powerleveling" is not actually powerleveling, because it is legal and no money is asked for. Thus making it a Walkthrough not a powerleveling guide. Just thought I would let you know. 13:03, 30 November 2006 (EST)


 * Well this is where we differ. Its a play style.  To me powerleveling never involves doing anything illegal, let alone paying for service.  That is a whole different process.

Sharlin 08:23, 1 December 2006 (EST)

The point is... Why make a page with the same name, and add new info there, if you could simply grab the original page, and edit that? now we'll have to make 1 of the pages a redirect. 06:41, 1 December 2006 (EST)


 * Should I just overwrite the old page? How do we want it displayed?  Powerleveling or Power Leveling?  Doesn't matter to me.  I did it as one word. Sharlin 12:40, 1 December 2006 (EST)
 * Used Power_Leveling as the main page, and merged the 2 pages. just needs cleanup, and duplicate info (which was in the old article) removed. from there on it should probably be easy to expand upon your original idea. 05:12, 4 December 2006 (EST)

Extremely slow page loads
This is most likely just a problem for me, but I've been getting some really, really slow loads on pages, and often get timed out. I think it might be due to the fact that I'm making a lot of minor edits (page moves) in a short amount of time, and the server might be trying to block me because it thinks I'm a bot. Is there a way to stop this from happening, or will I just have to move between short edits and long edits to waylay the server's fears? 15:24, 29 November 2006 (EST)


 * Personally, I don't think that's it. I've made tons of edits in a short amount of time on both a flagged and unflagged account, no difference. I think the server is just having some personal troubles this month. Hopefully he'll get over it soon. --Hobinheim 15:43, 29 November 2006 (EST)


 * I've made edits to 4 commonly used Templates that used the Exists conditional, each time it brought the server to nearly a standstill for several minutes; I am sure it was directly related to those edits. This is understandable, but the more dynamic articles get, the more it will slow everything down. --Gryphon 17:55, 29 November 2006 (EST)


 * Yeah edit amounts is nothing to do with the lag, I did exactly what Hobinheim did, and it doesn't make a difference. The server is just overloading itself and slowing down sometimes. 12:59, 30 November 2006 (EST)


 * It's not the 'amount', it is the 'what' you edit. I guarantee you edit Template:Epic and the site will slow down. As a test I will do it right now. --Gryphon 13:29, 30 November 2006 (EST)


 * Why is that then? 13:44, 30 November 2006 (EST)


 * It is using dynamic templates that have to be re-cached, most articles are just what they are, others (like the recent influx of 'if then else' articles) have to determine a bunch of factors to create them. --Gryphon 13:47, 30 November 2006 (EST)

Move the search box up? Move the ads down?
Could the search box on the left side of the screen be moved up? My monitor is at 1280x1024 and I still have to scroll down to get to it. Or that big old google ad w/ wow gold be moved down? TY --Colinstu 16:25, 29 November 2006 (EST)


 * The google ad probably can't be brought down too much. I'm guessing there's some policy about keeping it "above the fold" as web designers call it, above a certain threshold. --Hobinheim 16:37, 29 November 2006 (EST)


 * There is no Google policy about where you have to place them. --Gryphon 17:58, 29 November 2006 (EST)


 * While I disagree about the Google ads (they are in prime location), I do think that the search box could be moved above the ad box. Style it so that the table is smaller, remove the Google image, and make it default to only WoWWiki. Sam Weber 17:16, 29 November 2006 (EST)


 * To be honest all of the addverts should be set so that they do not display any powerleveling or gold selling at all, because I thought WoWWiki was supposed to be with Blizzard/World of Warcraft and powerleveling/gold selling is not... 12:58, 30 November 2006 (EST)


 * That has been responded to, it is impossible to keep them clear (I do it for my own sites), it is a job you have to manage daily. --Gryphon 13:23, 30 November 2006 (EST)


 * For that matter, how about replacing the Google search with the internal search? Or at least making it an option on the radio select?   21:34, 2 December 2006 (EST)

Lore Status of Quest Target NPCs
I'm not sure if this has been addressed before, but... what's WoWWiki's policy in regards to the death of named NPC's in World of Warcraft? For example, I've come across several articles for NPC's that state the character has been killed by "an unknown but heroic and super sexy Alliance/Horde party". This doesn't seem particularly correct. Should these statements be replaced with "members of both the Horde and the Alliance are seeking this NPC's death" or something similar? I've noticed a few pages that stated something along these lines have changed, but I just wanted to get a more official confirmation before changing any others I might see.

There are a few specific cases that seem to be exceptions, like when a character is killed as part of a significant lore event enacted by a quest, for example, Taelan Fordring's death and the subsequent refounding of the Silver Hand by his father. Edwin VanCleef's death also seems canon, as the events following his kicking the bucket result in the need to go into the Stockades. Scarlet Commander Mograine is an interesting case, as there is both two quests to kill him, and an event where he is slain by the vengeful spirit of his father.

I guess what I'm asking is, how much evidence do we need before we can write off a WoW NPC as dead? Is it enought that one or both sides has a quest to kill them, or does there have to be an important lore event that is set off or involves their death?

--Mikaka 20:40, 29 November 2006 (EST)


 * My opinion is that "Canon" is what would be the case if there were no respawns and you only did quests (and in the optimal order). i.e. one kill of each boss, quest events only happen once, etc. So VanCleef is dead, the leaders of the Stockades revolt are dead, the Dark Iron emperor is dead, etc.  When there's different quests for both sides, you have a bit of a problem, but you can resolve it the same way that WCII's opposing storylines were resolved. --Bobson 07:11, 30 November 2006 (EST)


 * I've seen a number of such articles, and in my opinion, the statements are completely useless. "X has recently been killed by adventurers, leaving the future of Y uncertain," could be said of every mob in the game.  "Countless Timber Wolves have recently been killed for Eagan Peltskinner, leaving the ecology of Elwynn Forest uncertain." "Lord Falconcrest and Prince Galen Trollbane have recently been killed, leaving us to wonder who will clean the bloodstains off of Stromgarde's walls." Are such comments true? Sure, but do they help any reader of the wiki? No. "Z wants X killed, to achieve W," is almost always sufficient to inform the reader. --Beep 11:29, 18 December 2006 (EST)


 * The following statii are used for infoboxes:


 * Alive: all living NPCs who are not killed for quests or plot
 * Undead: all undead NPCs who are not killed for quests or plot
 * Active: Gods and Titans
 * Killable: All beings killed for quests and plot
 * Deceased: died before WoW; explanation usually provided
 * Unknown
 * Special: comatose, captured, etc.
 * I'll agree with Beep's suggestion for in-article text. --Ragestorm 11:36, 18 December 2006 (EST)

New editions proposed for BC article
I've proposed two possible new editions for the Burning Crusade article. I've started a thread on the talk page detailing my reasoning and linking the two editions. Please comment!

The two new editions are here:
 * User:Montag/World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade
 * User:Montag/World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade (shorter)

Please make your comments on the Burning Crusade talk page instead of here. You may also comment on my own talk page if you like.

Misdirect not needed?
Maelstrom%E2%80%99s_Wrath Shows that it's misdirected from Maelstrom's Wrath  I think the first link needs to be deleted, since there are 2 pages with the same item/info. It gets misdirected when you try to click it from the set box on Maelstrom's Wrath That prob doesn't make very much sense, but if you play around with the links to the item,  some of them go to the first link (which gets misdirected to the 2nd) and some of them go to the 2nd. So I don't see a need for the 1st page. 16:06, 30 November 2006 (EST)
 * Same Problem with Renataki’s Charm of Beasts and Renataki's Charm of Beasts, should be fixed now--Pupapaya 09:37, 1 December 2006 (EST)

Analysis Template
Template:AnalysisMenu

What category should I add Rare trinket analysis and Epic trinket analysis/ ? Armor category maybe? And also Rare relic analysis Epic relic analysis ? Armor again? And also Rare necklace analysis Epic necklace analysis  Armor again? :)

Also, I think Rare thrown analysis should be deleted. Since there is only 1 rare throwing item in game, does it deserve it's own page+analysis?

16:25, 30 November 2006 (EST)
 * There will be more good throwing weapons in TBC, so I'd keep it. If you're making a lot of analysis pages, just make a new category; (I presume that's the plural of the word?). -- T  inker  er  16:30, 30 November 2006 (EST)

Template:Elinksmob needs fix
I'd love if someone could either unprotect or edit this template so it used second level headings and looked more coherent in documents with proper formatting. 21:41, 30 November 2006 (EST)


 * Same for --Adys 21:52, 30 November 2006 (EST)


 * Well, judging what happened to the servers recently, only an admin should do it and on offpeak hours. --Hobinheim 12:13, 1 December 2006 (EST)


 * Why is that? 13:59, 1 December 2006 (EST)


 * If it was left wide open, then regular users, even anons, could make crazy edits on it, bringing the server down again. I'm pretty sure bringing down the server = completely unwanted happening. I suggested offpeak hours because the server would still probably grind to a halt, even if it was one or two edits. --Hobinheim 14:07, 1 December 2006 (EST)


 * I see what you mean, it is protected because it is used in so many pages. 15:23, 1 December 2006 (EST)


 * No, editing them doesn't cause that much of a server issue as they don't use crazy if/else workarounds. The reason that they are locked is because the [edit] link for the External Links section links directly to the template and Wiki newborns unknowingly edit the template instead of the article. So instead of fixing the external link for just the article they set every article to the same external link. --Gryphon 16:58, 1 December 2006 (EST)


 * I was thinking, perhaps we should add some generic search links into these templates as well. Maybe even use some of those "crazy if/else workarounds" so that editors aren't required to add the item numbers.  If the number for thott isn't given, make a link that includes the pagename as the search value on thott.  Template:BC Itempage Placeholder has an example of what I'm thinking of.  --Tekkub 19:45, 1 December 2006 (EST)


 * Hell, why not drop the numbers completely? If we can make search links to every major datamining site why even bother hunting down item numbers for direct links?  Make our lives easier :)  --Tekkub 19:49, 1 December 2006 (EST)


 * It doesn't really need to be permanently unprotected. The heading just needs to be edited, which any admin can do. 17:29, 3 December 2006 (EST)


 * and have been fixed to use level 2 headings.  -- Mikk  (T) 09:24, 10 December 2006 (EST)

analyze this
What's the purpose of all the Rare axe analysis pages.. 99% are just lists of all epic / rare items,, with no info. shouldn't the pages just be named "Rare whatever" instad of "rare whatever analysis", some exceptions here n there. don't we have thottbot for a full list of all rare axes n such? i think daggers is the only page with any sort of "analysis" incorporated into it. 06:35, 1 December 2006 (EST)
 * Good question. They'd probably be better off as a Category:Rare_whatever as well, instead of a page that will have to be manually kept up to date. --Bobson 08:40, 1 December 2006 (EST)
 * It started with the Epic dagger analysis. I then created all the other pages, since it allowed for a nice list of items to track "outstanding" item pages. Dropping the "analysis" from the name-space is fine with me. --Dracomage 09:54, 1 December 2006 (EST)
 * Can always use Template:Stub/Item for outstanding pages. 10:46, 1 December 2006 (EST)
 * SO your proposing we change Rare axe analysis to something like Rare axes? My current wiki project is adding all items to the data base, and these are the lists that i'm using.  I personaly don't see a reason for the "analysis" at the end,    I'm all for changing it(if your proposing changing it like I showed)   11:17, 1 December 2006 (EST)
 * I'd rather see it as a category, and just create stub pages for the ones that don't exist yet. The problem with any hardcoded list is simply "Who's going to keep it up to date?" If Blizzard adds a new epic axe, who's going to think to add it to the list? Sure, anyone can add it, but they have to notice it missing, first.  If you're planning on adding details about the axes to the page, that's a different story, but straight lists should be categories.  I think you can include the items from the category into a page other than the Category: page, if you want to do that. --Bobson 11:52, 1 December 2006 (EST)
 * Yeah should all be categorised, but other than the category I don't care about the page names. I might create a category now and move/rename the pages then? 12:35, 1 December 2006 (EST)
 * There are already categorys such as Category:Axes. The think I like about the analysis pages is it split it up between rare and epic. Do you mean making categorys like "Category:Rare axes"  and "Category:Epic axes"   and delete the overall axe category?14:44, 1 December 2006 (EST)
 * That would be something very long to do that would not be that useful. A list is much easier to keep up, imho. --Adys 14:52, 1 December 2006 (EST)
 * May aswell just keep it as it is, but I think the Analysis Equipment bar needs a little cleaning, might do that. 15:04, 1 December 2006 (EST)
 * I say we leave it as is, and maybe someone can dig up some of the same type of "Analysis" info like in Rare dagger analysis. And we can just keep filling it in. Once I get the lists complete, I'll look into doing that.15:21, 1 December 2006 (EST)
 * I'll reserve judgement until I see the analysis completed, but I still oppose non-automated lists on general Wiki principle. --Bobson 10:26, 4 December 2006 (EST)

BC quests
I can't seem to find any quests with a BC tag on them. are the beta testers putting in quests? Does Thottbot or Ala have any BC quests? I'm just doing some research, and need to find as many BC quests as possible. 12:52, 4 December 2006 (EST)


 * Looks like there are two on the Wiki, Archmage Vargoth & City of Light. Thottbot has data here. --Gryphon 13:05, 4 December 2006 (EST)


 * WowHead has a collection of Burning Crusade quests here, we need to start adding them to the Wiki though. 18:23, 04 December 2006 (GMT)

warrior stances
I am a level 35 warrior and just realized that I do not have defensive stance. I went to trainers in orgrimar, thunder bluff and UC and none of the trainers have a quest for me to obtain to get the stance. Is this a linked quest and where in the world do I get the quest? Please help, Hard for me to get accepted as a tank anywhere without Defensive stance.

--Savejim 07:17, 5 December 2006 (EST)


 * From Defensive Stance "Gained: Level 10, quest from Warrior Trainer." If it's like the other Lv10 ability quests this means you need to head to the trainer that's located at the first town with an inn in your race's starting zone.  --Tekkub 08:21, 5 December 2006 (EST)

Talent and Build Pages
Oh well, looks like it will be time again to revist each class's Build page, let alone Talent pages. Question for future major changes. Is there a way to build pages not for viewing? This way something can be built and brought in when the change it reflects occurs? --Sharlin 06:04, 6 December 2006 (EST)


 * Just build the page elsewhere, like in your user namespace. User:Sharlin/Necromonk talents --Hobinheim 07:58, 6 December 2006 (EST)


 * Can we start replacing the tables with the new one? Sample BeastMaster Table

Sharlin 06:54, 7 December 2006 (EST)


 * I would immediately suggest template-izing the page before proceeding. --Hobinheim 08:08, 7 December 2006 (EST)


 * I have no idea as to what that means. Sharlin 08:26, 7 December 2006 (EST)


 * The talent table you propose is just one of many. They should all look the same. The talents within the page itself all look the same. They should all use the same code, without actually including markup related to tables/layout/color. Each talent should look something like the following, and nothing more

--Hobinheim 10:48, 7 December 2006 (EST)


 * The page I created is a copy of the one it replaces. The "template" and my new page are identical, I didn't introduce anything new as far as editting.  If anything tables just annoy me when it comes to updating them.

original ] new]

Sharlin 11:51, 7 December 2006 (EST)
 * Are we gunna delete all the suggested builds? since most of them no longer apply. Let me know if I can delete all old ones, and start working on writing the new Hunter ones.12:56, 7 December 2006 (EST)

I created a couple talent templates (like Hobinheim suggested) that we can use to build the talent tables:


 * Template:Talentheader
 * Template:Talentrow1
 * Template:Talentrow2

Using those you get (without having to mess with all the table code):

Talentheader}} Talentrow1|Improved Heroic Strike|none|5|Reduces the cost of your Heroic Strike ability.}} Talentrow2|Improved Charge|Arms 5|2|Increases the amount of rage generated by your Charge ability.}} Talentrow1|Impale|Arms 15 Deep Wounds 3|2|Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your abilities in Battle, Defensive, and Berserker stance.}}
 * }

Key thing is to make sure you include the |} at the end. That way it doesn't mess up any pages it gets embedded in. - ClydeJr 13:04, 7 December 2006 (EST)


 * To be really really annoyingly technical, I think there should be a talentfooter template. That stray  just baffles the mind... But I see what it does. It closes the table that was created with the templates. Blah, so yucky. --Hobinheim 15:07, 7 December 2006 (EST)


 * So how about those out dated builds pages? We clear to delete and re work those?13:22, 7 December 2006 (EST)


 * Outdated builds shouldn't be outright deleted. If you spot one, maybe post a tag saying that the information may be outdated. If you can, update the build appropriately to fit the new talents. Just because something is out of date doesn't mean it's completely worthless. --Hobinheim 15:04, 7 December 2006 (EST)

I was thinking about doing some myself. Builds need multiple inputs. I'll see what I can do for the Priests. Qii 15:14, 7 December 2006 (EST)


 * For the talent pages, we were kind of working on something different already --> Boilerplate:Talent_Tree, check there and comment on the talk page.
 * As for the build pages.. can probably delete those, or move them to a "classic" page or whatnot. 07:45, 8 December 2006 (EST)


 * I think the cell ideas suck. Sorry but I looked at the page where the table is and I would never want to try to edit it. Simple, concise, displaying of the talents is what we need.  We don't need some artsy method, leave the fancy stuff to the talent builder websites.  The alternating row colored entries works fine, we just needed a simpler way to achieve the same effect as the page I copied; beast mastery table; was very annoying as well to change.


 * Really guys, make what he have even easier to edit. We are already days behind the change and talents, abilities, and whatnot are all something that should have been updated beforehand.  We need to probably use the same look for abilities as well. Sharlin 08:02, 8 December 2006 (EST)


 * Try User:Hobinheim/Talents. It's reasonably easy to edit. Comments? --Hobinheim 15:57, 8 December 2006 (EST)


 * Page is too wide. Do we have guidelines as to what the max page width should be?  At my 1600x1200 that page barely fit.


 * Is it really? I'm sad panda this isn't getting any love. =( --Hobinheim 17:27, 14 December 2006 (EST)


 * Page looks fine for me at 1440 wide, and I can take it down to about 2/3 that width before it overflows. I hate to be a jerk, but creating tables with template for every link/cell is very ugly to me.  Put the style in a template until we can get the access needed to create new CSS classes, and apply that style using  {| style=""  ... |- style="" .  In the end that'll make the transition to proper CSS a lot easier, and it won't rely on templates to create a table.  The wiki syntax for tables is damn simple anyway :P   02:46, 15 December 2006 (EST)

WoWWiki performance problems
I finally got through to Rustak and he says he thinks he's fixed the performance problems everyone has probably been noticing. He's been pretty busy, so he hasn't visited WoWWiki recently and his monitoring scripts were not working right. -- Fandyllic (talk) 4:17 PM PST 6 Dec 2006


 * Well, at least you got through to him, just need to wait until he is free to edit some things, such as the logo. 15:29, 07 December 2006 (GMT)


 * Get through to him again and make him get more admins in with root access. There's plenty of things Mikk could fix on his own (CSS, logo) but he needs access damnit!  --Tekkub 10:43, 7 December 2006 (EST)


 * Not to mention apache restarts when the monitor scripts aren't reacting... -- Mikk  (T) 10:58, 7 December 2006 (EST)


 * Yeah, I vote Mikk to be root! Hehe. 18:18, 07 December 2006 (GMT)

Changed content Cat?
The Wiki has a Category:Added content.. Maybe we need a Changed or Update content Cat??? Thinking of the recent Honor changes... --Dracomage 10:50, 7 December 2006 (EST)
 * I actually think that'se just "added", too. -- T inker  er  10:52, 7 December 2006 (EST)


 * about 90% of wow is "added content", im not sure how crazy that would end up as. Perhaps limit it to "big" changes only. 08:03, 8 December 2006 (EST)
 * Most of the 1-50 game is still the same as it originally was (talent updates aside), although there've been a few quest hubs and one or two instances added, some more flight paths, and the battlegrounds. There's a lot more level 60 content than there was originally, but I don't think it really compares to the amount of pre-60 content (think of all those quests in all those zones for both sides...). --Bobson 09:14, 11 December 2006 (EST)


 * Maybe instead of just a generic "Added" this should be broken out into sub-cats for each patch? There could event be a simeple template... toss a    and it'd stick in a note "This content was added or changed in Patch 1.9" and the proper category.   18:03, 11 December 2006 (EST)


 * That'd be nice. --Bobson 07:32, 13 December 2006 (EST)

Capitalizing Classes
Sort of in the same lines as capping races, although we've covered that... Are we supposed to cap class names in sentences? Like, Warriors make great tanks. And I hate Mages. Or being a priest is rough. Good job slaying the dragon, young warlock. I figured since Blizzard narratively keeps it lower case... I dunno. --Hobinheim 21:29, 7 December 2006 (EST)


 * Well, I thought of an answer to my own question. If we're talking about a class, as in the abilities for a certain class, then we should capitalize it. But if we're talking about something lore-wise, then we can just lower-case it. There are many elven priests. But only Priests can cast Lesser Healing. --Hobinheim 00:31, 8 December 2006 (EST)


 * Personally I capitalise them (unless I cannot be bothered) because they are nouns. 15:31, 08 December 2006 (GMT)


 * Like German? O_o --Hobinheim 10:33, 8 December 2006 (EST)


 * I don't capitalize them for the same reason you don't capitalize "director" or "producer" -- unless they are used as titles, they're just jobs ("the priest heals" versus "Priest Gilbert heals"). However, in some cases in dialog, you might see someone say, "Do this for me, Warlock," in which case it should be capitalized, because it's being used as a name. Blizzard isn't always consistent with this. 12:52, 8 December 2006 (EST)


 * Consistency is due to lazyness. 09:01, 09 December 2006 (GMT)


 * I keep them lowercase myself. "Can we get a Cleaning Person (sic) to fix this?" ;-) -- Mikk  (T) 18:01, 9 December 2006 (EST)
 * Yeah, they should usually be lowercase unless it is a proper noun. E.g. The best priest I know is Priest Gilbert.  WhiteBoy 20:30, 9 December 2006 (EST)

IRC Channel
For those of you interested in chitchatting outside of the pump here, Mikk and Kirkburn have started us up a channel on FreeNode. Hop on and join us in #wowwiki --Tekkub 18:42, 8 December 2006 (EST)

ItemRack
Trying to create an event to where i am disarmed that it auto switches to a fist weapon can anyone come up with an idea or know what script i should type in to get this to work?


 * I'm not sure it'll help. I haven't tested, but I'm pretty sure I've had fist weapons disarmed off of me in the past. Anyone know for sure? --Bobson 11:00, 11 December 2006 (EST)

Quest Namespace (Req: Admins)
I have zero idea what other repercussions this might cause, but... How about we add a "Quest" namespace. I realize that we already namespace all of our quest articles manually, but in terms of technical namespaces that are supported by this wiki, "Quest" isn't one of them. So I propose we upgrade it to the real thing. Namely, what this will give us is the ability to say and not have the "Quest:" prefix show up. And I guess there would be other goodies. Or not. Who knows. --Hobinheim 19:50, 9 December 2006 (EST)


 * I second that. It would make editing them a lot easier. Quests as a whole are rather sub-par at the moment. 14:18, 11 December 2006 (EST)


 * Thirded 17:57, 11 December 2006 (EST)

I would actually advocate removing the quest namespace completely, since it doesn't serve a purpose other than to keep separate a large part of the wiki from the global namespace. Quests are already connected and organized by Category:Quests, and removing the namespace would remove the need to have the admins add it as a technical namespace and make linking more intuitive. It's a large change, but something we could certainly facilitate with several people. Overall, I don't think WoWWiki should be bloated with organization in the article titles, and I see a lot of that. 12:10, 12 December 2006 (EST)


 * Hrm... you mean only disambig when needed, with the general "Page name (quest)"? I have to say that's not a bad idea either, and more fitting of the general style the wiki should probably aim for.   Tekkub 01:13, 13 December 2006 (EST)


 * I agree with this general standpoint.  -- Mikk  (T) 01:41, 13 December 2006 (EST)


 * The thought of how to go about this makes my head hurt... For now, I'm gonna have to say no, I don't agree with this. But I have thought about it before and I'm gonna mull on it for a while... --Hobinheim 13:30, 13 December 2006 (EST)


 * PS, no, this is a dumb/repetitive task, perfectly suitable for a bot. Specifically an admin-enabled bot, actually. Just saying. --Hobinheim 13:32, 13 December 2006 (EST)


 * A lot of "create this [THIS ITEM]" quests are actually named Quest:THIS ITEM, so that would require disambiguation pages for a whole lot of articles, i think... --Hobinheim 13:33, 13 December 2006 (EST)


 * Still looking over the quests... I'm really apprehensive about such a large, large change and I also hate disambiguation pages with the heat of a thousand suns.... So the argument for item-quests goes the same for npc-quests. Did you mean Hobinheim (NPC) or Hobinheim (Quest)? Blah to all of that. // Ooo, okay, let me put in another way. If this was an encyclopedia, the part that would least represent encyclopediotic content are quests. Don't we usually write strategy/POV in those? I would rather read about Hobinheim the NPC under the title Hobinheim rather than the quest or disambiguation page that just says "go talk to hob". --Hobinheim 13:39, 13 December 2006 (EST)
 * I'm with Hob. I'm for moving all quests into the Quest namespace. --Bobson 15:25, 13 December 2006 (EST)

Addon
--Egunon 00:22, 10 December 2006 (EST) hi i am mike i was ussing one of your addon for many time (Sacredbuff) and i was downloaded today the new one from curse gaming and it doesent works, it´s say me that "The library bubble-(i couldnt remember what)-2.2 is missing. I really love this addon, if you could sen it to me the new one to could continue playing with it or any solution whith that i´ll be so happy. thanks  a lot and sorry for the inconveniences.


 * Egunon, this is not an addon site and who is this addressed to? Use a forum to ask things like this, WoWWiki's Village Pump is not a forum... 09:06, 10 December 2006 (GMT)
 * As SacredBuff is an Ace addon, the best place to look for such information would be the WowAce Wiki. In your case, you can try to download and install Babble as a separate library.
 * Consider reporting this error message to the author of SacredBuff. --Teomyr 06:48, 11 December 2006 (EST)

Makuta: Lord of the Universe, and Dark Side Makuta
Removed spam. Please revert if this is not the correct proceedure. 14:21, 11 December 2006 (EST)

New PvP gear prices
Since Blizzard seems to be lazy in updating the prices (honor and tokens) of the new PvP gear, why don'twe do it ourselves? I think it would be an amazing addition to the site =)   --Miniv

Item Tooltip and Game IDs
Gahhhhh the item tooltip is bothering the crap out of me... I like how we're including it on lots of pages, but I don't like none of its templated! I'll try to work on something today... I realize it's a little rough since item attributes are hardly standard/widely varied....

PS - Very important question. What things in the game are identifiable by ID? Is it just items? Are there other things in the game that can be linked back to a global unique identifier? No, Thottbot IDs do not count. --Hobinheim 08:13, 12 December 2006 (EST)


 * Are you complaining about the Help:Item articles template? There's a lot of stuff on that, but if you think there needs to be more, just add it to the Boilerplate.


 * Although now that I think about it, I think you're wanting to have something like in there. Would having a template really make things better or just more confusing? Right now the current boilerplate is pretty confusing, especially with the code to make a small tooltip if its embedded.


 * As for the IDs, I know thott's item IDs are completely fubared. However, Alla's and Wowhead's item ids match and I think are the same ones used by WoW. Also the quest IDs and the mob IDs match between all 3 sites so I imagine that is some number used by WoW as well. - ClydeJr 09:40, 12 December 2006 (EST)


 * I had this wacky idea in my head... Indexing everything by ID. I know item links have their ids exposed by the API. I guess people are mining the quest and mob ideas from the cache files... But those aren't exposed, I don't think. --Hobinheim 10:35, 12 December 2006 (EST)

undefined

That's my proposal as to what tooltip templates should look like. Currently working on it at my user page. Feel free to take a look.--Hobinheim 11:46, 12 December 2006 (EST)

If we added the "canonical" ID (wowhead, alla) to the tip, we could construct the reference link automatically... if that is desirable. Also note that items have up to 3 damage slots (damage,dmgtype), and that weapons may also have an armor value. Oryx 9:46, 12 December 2006 (PST).


 * Very much desirable, so much so that I'm in the process of adding such a fold into the Questbox template. And in regards to the specific fields, the above was just an example. Of course we'll address all the possible fields for weapons, armor, trinkets, items, etc in one monster, sexalacious tooltip. --Hobinheim 13:55, 12 December 2006 (EST)


 * The tooltips I've been posting I dump from the game with a lil addon. If you're going to go the route of constructing a generic template, I think the best option is to look at the WDB files and just post all the info up to a page.  There's a crapton™ of information in there, and with a smart (but not exactly small) tooltip template, we could generate a replica.  The WDB could be parsed and posted by a bot, just like how alla/thott/wowhead get their data.
 * This brings up another point however. What information do we want in the tooltip?  I personally think it should appear exactly the same as in-game, minus the set bonus details (link to the set and have a similar tooltip for the set bonuses).  Are we gonna go all apeshit and start linking spell effects and crap like thott does?  Personally I hope not, we're not trying to be an all-encompassing, provide every bit of data that's in the client type of site are we?  Sometimes I think Thott's data is such a mess because they try to present more data than is needed.  We can always provide external links for people that want to dig more.  Shouldn't we focus on taking the in-game data, mirroring it, and providing a wiki page with extra info that 90% of the visitors would find relevant to that item?   23:30, 12 December 2006 (EST)


 * Personally, I wouldn't mind this wiki being like Thottbot, so long as it was accurate. I like item IDs and I like keeping things nice and orderly. But uhh... Yeah, if I knew how to properly read WDB files, I would. I was actually looking into it yesterday and the grunt work is largely complete.
 * Should the tooltip look like the one in game? Yes. Should it link spell effects? Maybe. If spell effects really are generic and repeated and shared throughout different objects and bound to an accurate effects ID, then I think it'd be really nice to link to them. It just makes multiple pages easier to maintain in the long run, if the effects ever do change.
 * Thott is such trash... I mean I love it to death and I use it often but I can't figure out why they don't just sanitize their data once in a while with very very obvious queries. --Hobinheim 13:28, 13 December 2006 (EST)
 * I wouldn't object to a single mass import of data, but I don't think we should keep the database up-to-date that way. I wouldn't be surprised if ID numbers changed every now and then (it would explain why Outfitter couldn't find items which were sitting quite happily in my backpack post-patch), which may explain some of Thott's problem (not all, by any means, but some).  But one big dump of things as they are now, then manually updating them when they become incorrect would work, and be wikiish. --Bobson 15:23, 13 December 2006 (EST)
 * Unfortunately we can't do an import from the WDB files. If I'm not mistaken, that's considered data mining and is considered a big no-no by Blizzard as well as WoWWiki. - ClydeJr 18:24, 13 December 2006 (EST)
 * Uhm no, wdb imports are perfectly legal, else they wouldn't be readable. It's what Allakhazam and Thottbot use afaik. --Adys 18:29, 13 December 2006 (EST)
 * You positive about that? Thottbot uses the Cosmos addon to collect info. Allakhazam uses Wowreader. Wowhead has its own client. I don't think any of the data is mined from the files. That's why new content is released, that data isn't updated immediately on the sites. Someone with one of their addons has the actually see the item/mob/quest and then upload it.


 * In my experience, itemID's don't change. If an item is replaced, like the epic mounts were early on, the old item is depreciated and a new one introduced with some means of upgrading.  Once an item is created it retains the same ID.  That doesn't mean that the item's stats might not change, just that the change is applied without changing the ID.  As for "data mining", there's only so much data that can be attained in-game, and saving out all that data for every item you see would have drastic effects on player's load times.  Having looked at their clients I know that alla and wowhead pull data from the WDB files.  Looking at the detail of the information on thott, I'd wager they do as well.  I do believe that the "data mining" policy is aimed at people that try to get data from the server that's not been seen yet.  People used to use LootLink to try to brute force the data out of the server, that's why disconnects were added to the client.  If the client, and therefore the server, has seen the data then it's okay for us to grab it's info.  Item data won't be in the cache if it hasn't been seen in-game.   23:52, 13 December 2006 (EST)


 * You very well could be right. I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that the sites got all their info from the addons. They could be mining the WDBs. Well, if you are interested in that kind of thing, check out this site. They seem to have a lot of info on the file formats. I found it on the Fansites link here. - ClydeJr 10:37, 14 December 2006 (EST)


 * What might be an interesting project for someone to do would be to create a wowwiki version of these to collect data. Then maybe one of the bots can read the data and create the new wowwiki content based on it. - ClydeJr 21:06, 13 December 2006 (EST)


 * I was absolutely thinking about it... But I'm not sure I have the time. And I'm getting a little sick of WoW at the moment. =) --Hobinheim 07:16, 14 December 2006 (EST)

Epic armor's armor rating buffed?
I was updating some of the class sets yesterday to use the new rating system and I noticed something...

It looks like some epic/purple armor had its armor rating increased. I checked out Tier 1 - 3 warrior sets:
 * Battlegear of Might: 4306 -> 4916 (14% increase)
 * Battlegear of Wrath: 4925 -> 5623 (14% increase)
 * Dreadnaught's Battlegear: 5672 -> 6475 (14% increase)

The blue pieces is Battlegear of Heroism stayed the same but the purples were buffed.

I started looking at the Warlock gear:
 * Felheart Raiment: 584 -> 655 (12% increase)
 * Nemesis Raiment: 666 -> 760 (14% increase)
 * Plagueheart Raiment: 764 -> 873 (14% increase)

Was there anything in the patch notes about an overall boost in armor for epics? I looked but couldn't find anything. - ClydeJr 09:30, 12 December 2006 (EST)
 * The epic PvP weapons had their DPS increased (or might just be ranged weapons). The Grand Marshall's bow got a DPS boost.--Dracomage 12:15, 12 December 2006 (EST)
 * It was just ranged weapons.13:46, 12 December 2006 (EST)
 * I checked class sets, random drop purples, crafted purples, all purple armor seems to have had a 14% increase in armor rating. Of course, all the extra armor doesn't mean jack to my warrior when he's being cooked alive by some freakin' mage... - ClydeJr 13:57, 12 December 2006 (EST)

Category:Player characters sorting problem
I've been moving a lot of PC articles to user subpages recently, and I noticed that a lot of these pages are getting listed under U in Category:Player characters because the articles start with "User." However, PC puts the page in. PAGENAME returns the page without "User:" (e.g., PAGENAME for User:Montag/Nariana = Montag/Nariana) yet these pages are still getting listed under U. ~

Anyone have an idea why this occurs? 11:35, 14 December 2006 (EST)


 * I don't see it occuring anymore, although I did right after I read your post. I stupidly edited the actual PC template to test something, but I guess that trigger'ed a resorting of all the articles in the category. Try taking a look now. --Hobinheim 14:41, 14 December 2006 (EST)


 * Awesome. Seems fine now. 16:14, 14 December 2006 (EST)

just wondering
Hey im new to the forum and i just wanted to see what you guys though about this combo im making for my lvl 60 rogue... Some of this is in macros and some other not, ill try to make that clear

MACRO!!!!!

/caststealth(7) /cript PickupInventoryItem(#); PickupInventoryItem(#) {pick up daggers}

/castambush(rank #) /ConsumeInvetoryItem(#) {thisle tea}

NOT A MACRO!!!!

gouge

MACRO!!!! /Cast Backstab (rank #) /ConsumeInventoryItem(#) {thisle tea}

NOT A MACRO!!!!

Stinster Strike

MACRO!!!!!!!!

/cast Sinister strike(rank#) /consumeInventroyItem(#) {thisle tea}

/cast ColdBlood(1) /cast Everiserate(rank #)

thats it, just wondering if it sucked or not.

--Mandangalow 09:30, 15 December 2006 (EST)
 * I'm not sure how useful it is, considering the cooldown on thistle tea. I also don't know why you'd cast SS by hand, and then macro it right after. I'm not even quite sure what the point is (5-combo, then CB-Evicerate?).  All I can say is, if it works for you, then great - use it! If it doesn't, you might want to consider looking at the addon called "LazyRogue" --Bobson 10:01, 15 December 2006 (EST)

Plus damage and Plus healing page rewrite?
Hey I have been gone a while but it looks like the rework of the Formulas:Plus_damage_and_Plus_healing page was a hit and lots of people have been adding and correcting data.

I see that someone has noted that everything was to be changed after the patch but I was very surprised that I didn't see any changes yet! Is someone working on this or...

--Mynia 15:44, 15 December 2006 (EST)

The great PC move
After a long (and rather arbitrarily chosen) quest of moving all the PC articles to user subpages according to WP:PA, I set my keyboard down and rest. Most, if not all, articles in Category:Player characters should start with User: and be sorted by username and then by character name. There are a couple stragglers whose owner I couldn't divine from the user history. Many have already been moved by their authors with only one left: The following PC article is also up for deletion, so please vote if you can: I'd like to say I'm supremely impressed with Selenium's character list and the Feathermoon server's dedication to roleplaying.
 * Tarquin ap Danwyrith
 * Vanderlei

Thanks to all the authors who moved their own pages after I nagged them on their article talk pages. The global namespace should now contain fewer articles on user-created content and be a lot cleaner. 01:06, 17 December 2006 (EST)

TCG Sets added
I have now added the 2 TCG sets, Heroes of Azeroth (http://www.wowpedia.org/TCG_Heroes_of_Azeroth) and Onyxia's Lair (http://www.wowpedia.org/TCG_Onyxias_Lair). Some Formatting must still be done, Afterwards I will be adding the cards themselves.

Take note, I am using TCG as a prefix to all links. Refrain from using TCG_ for anything else. As an example, the page for the Warchief Thrall card will be TCG_Warchief_Thrall. This way, we do not need to add this information to the already overloaded Warchief_Thrall page. I will add a link on the Warchief_Thrall page to show that there is a card of him. I am still thinking on how I am going to format the Card Pages themselves, but that's a worry for later. The naming will most probably be TCG_abreviation of the set_Card Name With the Abreviations being HoA (Heroes of Azeroth) and OL (Onyxias Lair).

Currently there is still the page "http://www.wowpedia.org/World_of_Warcraft_Trading_Card_Game_card_set" I will be deleting that one or perhaps redirect to another page, one with General Card Game information. Reasoning behind this is because that page makes it look as if there is only 1 set, which is not right. Also that page has a really lousy formatting and has tried to clam every single bit of information on 1 single page, which makes it look really overloaded. The new general TCG page will have information about the game itself, a link to rules and errata, a link for each set and ofcourse a link to the UDE WoW website. I'm not sure what else to add yet.

Now are there any remarks about these points, or ideas to improve these things? If I get no replies on this, I assume everything is allright and am going to finish it.

--Patrigan Lvl 60 lock EU-Shattered Hand 10:52, 17 December 2006 (EST)


 * I would recommend using the format Cardname (card) or Cardname (TCG) instead of prepending everything with TCG. Generally, paratheticals are better for disambigs. You could also go to the Thrall page and put a disamgig statement at the top that says "For the article on the Thrall card, see Thrall (card)." Other than that, the pages look great. 11:42, 17 December 2006 (EST)


 * Hmmm, think I'll go with the cardname (TCG) then. Reason why I was thinking prefixes, is because not every card has an ingame equivalent. Some are complete new names... --Patrigan Lvl 60 lock EU-Shattered Hand 12:07, 17 December 2006 (EST)

Out-of-date EU realms!
Adding Burning Steppes to the realm list (first new PVP realm in the EU since April o_O), I noticed that many realms were missing from the list. I don't have time now, but it could use updating...

--Jeeves the Mole 05:26, 18 December 2006 (EST)

Some questions about Fan Fictions and WoWWiki
Hello there, I'm new at editing and creating pages at WoWWiki (thought I'm a great fan of it's contents). Now, I have created a fan fiction and I want to post it here. But I have some questions about it: 1 - I don't know if I classify the fanfic as a fanfic or as an observation... it tells the story in my point of view of how the Humans learned the religion of the Holy Light, but without changing the actual lore. The story is not obligated to be an official story... in which category should I mark it? 2 - How do I make 'advertismenet'? You see, there is no point in creating a fanfic if nobody's gonna read it ;) Sorry for grammar mispellings (if any).

--Gollum 11:44, 18 December 2006 (EST)


 * Even though I'm not anything near this kind of stuff, my work lies in the TCG section, I suspect that  it is actually fanfiction, seeing that your goal is a real fiction with probably a few made up characters. If it is actually what YOU think the real Lore wants us to think, then it should be classified as an observation. Therein lies the difference, Fanfiction if you have made even the slightest part up. Observation if you clearly make it come across as your idea about how things went. Ok, I suck at explaining. As an example: If you're having a famous person sayy a sentence, which isn't dictated by any of the official lore, then it's fanfiction. Safest bet will always be fanfiction, you might be able to move it afterwards. --Patrigan Lvl 60 lock EU-Shattered Hand 12:27, 18 December 2006 (EST)


 * Well, "what YOU think the real Lore wants us to think" is the perfect explanation for this story =D. Thanks for the help.


 * WoWWiki does allow fan-fiction, including your take on Lore and player character histories. These go in your user subpages. That is, if your fan-fiction is called Holy Light, it would go in User:Gollum/Holy Light. Place the tag at the top of the page to notify people that the following is fan-created content. This also places the article in Category:Fan fiction where people interested in fan fiction can go to see all the fan-fiction articles on the site. You can also advertise on your user page or add a link to your work on the not-so-oft-used WoWWiki:The New Place, Warcraft Creativity Center page. For more specifics, you can check out WP:PA, WP:FANFIC and the fan fiction guidelines article.  16:19, 18 December 2006 (EST)

AddOn Developer Guild?
I thought I saw once that someone from this site setup a guild for addon developers, but I can't find that. Does anyone know what server it is on? It would be nice to work on an addon for unit and raid frames without constantly bugging friends that don't care to group/start a raid with me, and to have others to chat with while I'm developing. --Jgoemat 19:37, 18 December 2006 (EST)


 * I don't remember what server they are on in Live, but in TBC we're on Hellfire (the PvE realm). You're not gonna get a lot of chatter though, for that you should hit up the channels on FreeNode.  The people there can hook you up with the live guilds if you need.   20:26, 18 December 2006 (EST)

Tier 5 pages?
Now that Tier 5 stats seem to be out there would it be possible to start on the Tier 5 pages?

http://www.worldofraids.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2298

--Parridion 08:55, 19 December 2006 (EST)
 * Not until you can provide a link to a Blizzard page with those stats. Otherwise, it's datamined. :/ --Bobson 09:19, 19 December 2006 (EST)


 * Not Datemined, the tier5 vendor is up on BC beta. follow the link he showed. I would do it myself, but I'm rather busy with 2 projects. --Patrigan Lvl 60 lock EU-Shattered Hand 13:38, 19 December 2006 (EST)


 * I'll accept that they're up in the beta, and should thus be posted. The link provided doesn't prove that either way, though.  I might play with creating them later, if no one else gets to it first. --Bobson 08:37, 20 December 2006 (EST)


 * If you look "through" the tooltips you can see the vendor window behind many of them...  22:30, 20 December 2006 (EST)
 * Aye, the T5 vendors are in and letting people window shop... so we just need to start dumping tooltips :P  03:07, 20 December 2006 (EST)


 * Haha, Teza is hot. If that is her in the avatar! :D 10:04, 20 December 2006 (GMT)


 * I've started working on the Shaman T5 sets. That's probably all I'll be able to do today, so if someone else wants to pick up the others, that'd be great.  I'm copying formatting and stuff from the Shaman T4 set.  If someone's got a better template to use, let me know! --Bobson 12:34, 20 December 2006 (EST)

Code Formatting options and look.
When setting up a Wiki Page that needs code blocks. i.e. Macros. There are two ways to get the code set. One with a leading space exp This is an example of a simple way to do a code block.

But, on some pages the code is quite lengthy, and cause the page to get very wide when using the above example. The other option is to do a code block that automatically does a word wrap to allow code to wrap. This is an example of the other way for long lines of code. So they WordWrap arround to allow for a beautiful looking page

Now, look at the completely different looking code blocks. Id like to recommend / suggest a standard Font set / size for both those options. To allow pages to have a similar look and flow with in. Some pages have both ways of doing code, but look just off. Thanks for the consideration.

--Lewzephyr 09:55, 20 December 2006 (EST)


 * This was under some discussion here Talk:Useful_macros, I removed them when I cleaned up all of the articles recently for a few reasons. Macros are generally much shorter now, you have to add nowiki code when doing things like #show and the template themselves clutter the article source. Also the code box is only as wide as the page for me and scrolls if the code is anything beyond that, what browser are you using that extends it beyond the width of your screen? Personally I dislike the readability of the varying code box sizes when using the templates. --Gryphon 14:09, 20 December 2006 (EST)


 * Using the most recent FireFox. In fact it had an update today. But yes, it does not wordwrap, and some macros are still long (I modded one with the code brackets, sorry not trying to step on toes).--Lewzephyr

Discuss lore
Is there any plance here in WoWwiki to discuss abou Warcraft's lore?

--Gollum 14:20, 20 December 2006 (EST)


 * Everywhere. Just find the article related to the topic you want.  Or check the Lore page linked from the main page. --Bobson 15:04, 20 December 2006 (EST)


 * Generally, you can use an article's talk page to talk about the article, but keep in mind that straight up Horde-bashing or crying about the draenei being too sci-fi isn't appropriate for a talk page. Talk pages sometimes have an "Analysis" or "Lore" subpage where that kind of discussion can happen, but keep the actual talk page just to discussion aimed at improving articles. 01:35, 21 December 2006 (EST)

Mineral Node spawn times
Is there any know spawn time on certain mineral nodes, (Copper Vein, Mithril Vein, etc.) I know there is one, I personally haven't been able to test yet(planning on it today)  This would be usefull information to have. If anyone has a link to somewhere saying anything about it, I would apreciate it.

15:00, 20 December 2006 (EST)

Automatically enter wiki code
i want to know why when you click "edit this page" on some of the wowwiki pages the wiki coded on the page isn't automatically entered on to the editing page? --Champion 10:14, 21 December 2006 (EST)


 * Not sure what you mean. Could you give an example? --Hobinheim 11:02, 21 December 2006 (EST)

what i mean is when you edit a category it doesn't come up with the articles in the category edit page example:http://www.wowpedia.org/index.php?title=Category:18_slot_bags&action=edit --Champion 10:40, 24 December 2006 (EST)


 * The articles that belong to a category on the category's page are automatically generated; we do not handle that code. To edit which articles belong to the category, refer to the article itself and the category tags usually located at the bottom of the article. --Hobinheim 11:43, 24 December 2006 (EST)

Verification on drops?
I've been trying to add as many BC items as possible, personally I detest external links if their not needed. And I stumbled upon this this morning.

Curretnly it show Pandemonius dropping Boots of the Skystrider, which isn't even a real item. It should be Ethereal Boots of the Skystrider. But according to WoWhead, those boots drop off of Nexus-Prince Shaffar, which is the same instance, just 2 bosses down. Also on the Nexus-Prince loot table it shows him dropping things, that are dropped by others and vice versa. WoWhead is the database I go off so I trust them 100%. Shall I go threw all the bosses and check to make sure things arn't swapped around?

P.S. Marking Boots of the Skystrider for speedy delete, seeing as how the item doesn't exist, and i've made the real one. or should I just redirect it? (seems pointless to crowd the wiki with useless re directs imo) 12:44, 21 December 2006 (EST)


 * BC pages often need revision and revision (and revision), as things change in beta. Try not to burn out attempting to hit a moving target.  --Beep 14:28, 21 December 2006 (EST)


 * I never miss moving targets, so thats not a problem. Just making sure it was alright if I ran threw em all to see what else is messed up. 15:36, 21 December 2006 (EST)

Doing a little bit of PR
I wonder if we should create a post on the Europe forums regarding the WoWwiki. Nowadays, many players seem to miss the fact that WoWwiki is existing, even though it is getting more and more a great source of information for ingame related things. (It used to be mostly Lore based LOOONG ago :p)

If you like I can work on this, it will be great to give the site a small boost for the better. --Patrigan Lvl 60 lock EU-Shattered Hand 12:31, 23 December 2006 (EST)


 * Sure, why not :) It would be important to mention we are in no way commercial, it's just a wonderful community resource :) -- Kirkburn  (talk) 12:55, 23 December 2006 (EST)


 * Agree, but we are not just any community source. The simple fact that everybody can create their own character page, the fact that they can keep their server stuff updated (instead of always having to wait for that 1 player to do that 1 update) and much much more should make the WoWwiki Project very appealing. I think that the PR of our Website can be greatly improved. --Patrigan Lvl 60 lock EU-Shattered Hand 12:58, 23 December 2006 (EST)


 * We should definitely emphasize the server and character page features, but we should probably have some examples of high quality server and character pages to offer as examples. This would also be useful in gathering resources to improve the guides on creating these types of pages. 16:06, 23 December 2006 (EST)


 * Well, we could use my own server, I have been working my ass off today to fix the page Server:Shattered_Hand_Europe see for yourself :p Perhaps if I added a good Roleplay Server (where people have a nice list of their characters and stuff) then we would get a broader view. The Battlegroup thingies are great as well, makes it very easy to look up who else is in your Battlegroup so we should aphasize that too. I'll also point out the links to the Crafter Pages and Guild Progression pages. Then we should have targeted every player. --Patrigan talk 16:12, 23 December 2006 (EST)
 * Lookin good, here is what I have done with my server article, Mal'Ganis_US :) --Gryphon 16:46, 24 December 2006 (EST)

Stub/Category
Anyone think we need a new Stub type: Category? It would be put onto categories which needed to have more things tagged into that category. Category:Nature Spells, for instance. (For the moment, I have a Other stub on the Category:Spells page, which covers all the sub pages, but I'd rather have a specific stub for it.) --Bobson 15:03, 20 December 2006 (EST)
 * While we are at it, we might make a Stub/AddOn too --dotted 08:37, 3 January 2007 (EST)

This seems as good a place as any, but could someone update the Burning Crusade content stub and remove the reference to beta testers? Thanks. Qii 15:29, 19 January 2007 (EST)

Reverting malicious page moves
I noticed a lot of these happening. For future reference, is there a quick way to revert a malicious page move, or do you have to copy and paste manually? 03:07, 21 December 2006 (EST)
 * For a move, you should be able to just move it back. For an in-place edit, you should be able to load a previous version from the history, then click "Edit" and "save". There may be a better way, but I don't know it. --Bobson 07:06, 21 December 2006 (EST)

New vandalism tool
To help fix with malicious moves, I've created the template. It works the same way as the move template. Its use is as follows:


 * where DestinationPage = the page's home.

It puts maliciously moved pages into Category:Maliciously moved pages where they can be moved back to their destinations by users or admins. If someone copied and pasted the contents back to the home page and then added new edits, be sure to merge those edits with the older version before you move it. This helps preserve the history of each page. 13:10, 21 December 2006 (EST)

Official WoWWiki IRC Channel
For all talk WoWWiki, visit the new official IRC channel, set up solely for your WoW + Wiki needs :P Several of the admin frequent the channel, and you are invited to discuss issues with us or notify us of important developments there!

Visit: irc.freenode.net, #wowwiki

-- Kirkburn  (talk) 18:46, 21 December 2006 (EST)

New admins!
I cordially invite you to congratulate the new wave of admins! (who had better behave or so face my wrath =)


 * Adys
 * Ragestorm
 * Gryphon
 * Tekkub
 * Varghedin
 * Hobinheim
 * Montag

Promoted this very evening, they have been added to the ranks to aid to wiki as it grows and grows and goes from strength to strength. If you feel left out and deserving of adminship, do not despair. We certainly are not ignoring your efforts, but we can't induct too many at once. Too many cooks and all that :P

Admins, I expect you to do your best and always think before doing! -- Kirkburn  (talk) 18:58, 21 December 2006 (EST)


 * /doom  20:25, 21 December 2006 (EST)
 * rm -rf wiki --Gryphon 21:38, 21 December 2006 (EST)
 * /cast [target=wowwiki] Inferno --Hobinheim 21:58, 21 December 2006 (EST)
 * I really don't want to deal with the controversy surrounding your retcons. ;-)--Ragestorm 22:00, 21 December 2006 (EST)
 * Cool; "OMG!!1!11!1oneone!1 gz! u mde lvl 60!!11!!!one!! h4x lol" that's all I can say. 08:57, 23 December 2006 (GMT)


 * Hahaha! ::Drunk with power.:: ...Hic! 16:10, 23 December 2006 (EST)


 * Good job all! Now I feel bad that I couldn't be active for the last weeks :]> -- T inker  er  16:12, 23 December 2006 (EST)


 * We're doomed ! :P 10:12, 3 January 2007 (EST)

Small note concerning the Guild article page
Atm, I'm trying to work on my Server page Server:Shattered_Hand_Europe to use it as a representative for the PR. For this I wanted to force some guilds on my server to make a guild page, but while writing an assistance post on how to do this, something vital struck me. Help:Guild_article has no information whatsoever on the name you should use for the page of your guild. You can't just allow guilds to just take a page like any other page. Eventually that would create problems for guilds with the same names...

So do we have any policy on how to name the page of your guild? If we don't, shouldn't we urgently create one? I can see many guilds using the wowwiki as an easy way to get a guild Homepage, a lack of a naming policy can become devastational (especially now that I'm writing on a PR post to get more players and guilds to do this)

So your thoughts on this?

--Patrigan 20:25, 23 December 2006 (EST)


 * I suggest taking a cue from User: /, Something like


 * Server:/. Baggins 20:28, 23 December 2006 (EST)


 * So I can take it that there isn't a policy yet? It is quite important that this policy gets set in stone. --Patrigan 20:37, 23 December 2006 (EST)


 * I've made an example here;

Server:Shattered_Hand_Europe/Order_Of_The_HammerBaggins 20:40, 23 December 2006 (EST)

That brings up the problem that http://www.wowpedia.org/Category:Shattered_Hand_Europe_Guilds got completely fucked up... which is something that should be avoided. Any solutions? --Patrigan 08:46, 24 December 2006 (EST)


 * I don't think there is any hard fix for that issue. However, the guild name should still be alphabatized so its still fairly clear to see the name of the guild.


 * I suppose another alternative is reverse it to Order Of The Hammer/Server:Shattered Hand Europe. But yes we would have to put that kind of change to a vote I think. We could ask which of the two forms that people prefer.Baggins 11:59, 24 December 2006 (EST)


 * That might actually work for the Guilds and then make Order_Of_The_Hammer a disambiguation(? Spelling XD) page, where a link can be made to the right realm. It solves the sorting problem, the guilds with the same name problem and it just works in general! So still put a vote up for it? If yes, then can we speed it up a bit, because my PR post is nearly fully written >.> :p --Patrigan 15:51, 24 December 2006 (EST)

This discussion should probably be held on the Wowpedia:Guild pages policy talk page because the pump gets archived and the discussion starts over in another couple months, this has been brought up numerous times before. The problem with using servername/guildname or some other combination of server and guild name is that not all guilds are confined to a single server. --Gryphon 16:40, 24 December 2006 (EST)


 * Just making sure it doesn't get forgotten, made a note on the talk page as well. We REALLY Must make it a rule in stone that a guild should ALWAYS be followed by it's server. At the moment, people just need to do that when it collides with another article. That can just give us extra work in the occasions that Blizzard decides toi do something with that word. Per example, Storm has been brought up. Those guilds have been changed and the page is now a disambithingy page, with the server between brackets behind it. Imagine that this disamthingy wasn't done, then we would most probably be facing a problem, seeing that the BC brings quite a lot of "Storm"s. So we have to change the Guild Policy article into saying that ALL Guildpages must be followed by a Servername in Brackets (what the guild policy page tells us to do now WHEN it collides). No more vague thingy aboutwhen colliding this and colliding that. No, it's simple to me. EVERYTHING must follow the Guildname (Servername) rule. Sorry, if I sounded harsh btw, but it's getting quite important now --Patrigan - Talk - SH (EU) 19:11, 26 December 2006 (EST)


 * Write a policy proposal. I'd certainly vote for the Guildname (Server) style. 11:02, 27 December 2006 (EST)


 * Patrigan has appended a vote to Wowpedia talk:Guild pages policy. Some more discussion there. Vote early and often, as they say! Luci 03:36, 6 January 2007 (EST)

Featured article
Wowpedia:Featured articles. Are we going to do anything with it anytime soon? Personally, I think it would be a great idea because it motivates many people to increase the quality of their articles. That could in turn earn WoWWiki a reputation for being a high quality WoW resource.  APʘLLʘ (ZEUS)  11:08, 25 December 2006 (EST)


 * Fantastic idea! I totally support this. We should first come up with a rubrick, similiar to Wikipedia's, about what makes a good-ish article. Or even just bullet points that have to be satisfied before being a featured article. I'm totally down. --Hobinheim 11:46, 25 December 2006 (EST)


 * Fantastic, but will anyone maintain it. If we have someone actually keeping it up to date, then yes. If that's not guaranteed, it'll just fail again :/ -- Kirkburn  (talk) 16:41, 25 December 2006 (EST)


 * Update what? The featured article? Bot that. Besides, it doesn't have to be like... Weekly or daily or anything. Let the bot sort all that crap out given a pool of articles. =) --Hobinheim 18:20, 25 December 2006 (EST)


 * In preperation for this project, I've made some reference/citation-related templates. Details on how to use them to follow one day... --Hobinheim 18:20, 25 December 2006 (EST)


 * I'm glad you like it. We still need to figure out how articles would be able to obtain this 'featured' status. Are we going to entertain a nomination process similar to Wikipedia's or will a board consisting of a few members handpick articles? [[File:IconSmall BloodElf Male.gif]] APʘLLʘ (ZEUS)  04:48, 26 December 2006 (EST)


 * Too early/slow to worry about a committee like that... How about something really low barrier like 1. must pass the rubrick for a featured article. 2. must be nominated for featured article status. 3. must be approved of by five positive votes within a week without major contention (just an example) --Hobinheim 11:18, 26 December 2006 (EST)


 * I like that idea. So the procedure you're suggesting should actually be identical to the deletion process? [[File:IconSmall BloodElf Male.gif]] APʘLLʘ (ZEUS)  11:26, 26 December 2006 (EST)


 * Similar, not identical. I dunno, just perused through it really quickly. Maybe something pruned down and easier to grasp. --Hobinheim 11:33, 26 December 2006 (EST)


 * Why picking something which would be easier to grasp? I'm fairly confident the system you proposed will do fine; your system lets people judge articles individually, but is still pretty basic. And if we are going to pick articles which could be considered Wowwiki's finest, we should do so carefully. I think we could pull this off. And to address Kirkburn's Christmas concerns; if you guys need a person to 'worry about' the featured articles, I'd be more than happy to become that person...but I'm aware that honour would probably be better off in some admin's hands.[[File:IconSmall BloodElf Male.gif]] APʘLLʘ (ZEUS)  02:52, 27 December 2006 (EST)

To all the users participating to the Burning Crusade Beta Test
Feel free to add yourself to the Category:Expansion Beta Testers. This should help updates on BC content and users wishing to work on this stuff. --Adys 13:22, 25 December 2006 (EST)
 * That should be Category:Lucky bastards. ;) [[File:IconSmall BloodElf Male.gif]] APʘLLʘ (ZEUS)  04:48, 26 December 2006 (EST)


 * Being Beta tester does have it's downsides... --Patrigan - Talk 13:15, 26 December 2006 (EST)


 * Yea it does.. kinda ruins the whole new feeling... --Asphyxiate 10:04, 24 January 2007 (EST)

Mmm, Navigation Bars
Hey all. Just wanted to make a short announcement... Been a long time coming. But, according to Mikaka, there are now navigation bars for all pre-Burning Crusade zones and subzones! I just want to thank everyone for being supportive of the project, and to those who have helped out, especially Mikaka, who would just go nuts and do lots of pages. I encourage everyone to check out the bars, jump from zone to zone, and really get a feel for how much detail there is in the Warcraft Universe. And, if you feel like other collections of pages should be bound together using a nav, be bold and create one! Again, thanks to everyone and Mikaka. Bar Boy Project a success! --Hobinheim 20:14, 26 December 2006 (EST)

Commercial external links in Wiki articles?
While reading the article about Alterac Valley, I read a recently added section about joining an AV game as a raid. In itself, this could be an exploit, so I clicked the external link at the end of the section to find out more. Turned out I couldn't verify the source, since the link pointed to a commercial website (www.multiplayerstrategies.com or www.mpsgames.com). A subscription is needed to read the content there.

I checked who added the section and when, and found it was user 'Sqren' (link to contributions) on December 25th. I then checked his list of contributions, and found that he has been very active. Randomly clicking some of his contributions revealed that all of his contributions include a link to this commercial website.

I'm adding this to the village pump because I'm irritated by this behaviour, as I feel it doesn't belong on a Wiki. Linking to a commercial website in each and every one of your contributions makes it highly likely that you are the person benefiting from that website.

However, I couldn't really find a policy about commercial content. I did find information on how to flag someone as a vandal, but I'm not experienced enough with wikis to be confident to do that. Who knows how to proceed with this? You can respond here, or on my user page. Many thanks in advance.

--Grudgebearer 05:55, 27 December 2006 (EST)


 * To be honest, I'm not sure the policy on linking to commercial sites either, but in the general spirit of "free information" I doubt many here will approve. However I did notice that every one of those links are to the same URL.  Looking at "?acode=2028" I got a sneaky suspicion that he's trying to generate affiliate linking revenue for himself.  A quick 2 min of detective work proved to we that he was (I signed up for my own affiliate and got a similar link, different number to use).  On the other hand, he has posted some useful info from the histories... so I guess we'll be nice and ask him to remove every one of those links.  If he won't, ban and revert :)  That is unless another admin wants to step up and take harsher actions, that's fine by me.   06:36, 27 December 2006 (EST)


 * Remove the link and put fact next to it, if there's no citation for it. That should help get some real citations for the information, if needed. 10:57, 27 December 2006 (EST)


 * Unless the info points to an accurate, important and relevant source about the page it is linked from, I am against such links. The WoWWiki is not for making money or gaining free hits from. :) -- Kirkburn  (talk) 11:12, 27 December 2006 (EST)


 * Thank you very much for dealing with this in such a swift manner! Grudgebearer 12:01, 27 December 2006 (EST)


 * If the wiki staff want me to remove links to my source, I will indeed do so. I have no intentions on pissing anyone off.
 * I do need to get an answer on a few things though. If my source was a online newspaper or any other source form the net, that requires a signup fee to use, Will that also being seen as an act of vandalism.
 * I am seriously trying to post information regarding different articles on this page, and it is by no means my intention to post spam. According to all known rules, its good behaviour to post your source of your information.
 * All my contributions will be removed within 48 hours.
 * --Sqren 12:38, 27 December 2006 (EST)sqren

Go Vote!
Just a reminder to everyone to go vote! --Bobson 08:31, 27 December 2006 (EST)

How is Illidan alive? He was killed by Arthas
How is Illidan alive? He was killed by Arthas --Colinstu 18:17, 27 December 2006 (EST)


 * Queries to the Lore department should be referred to the Wowpedia:Bookkeepers or the specific page involved. --Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 18:20, 27 December 2006 (EST)

Permanent or Indefinite?
What's the difference between Category:Permanently Blocked Users and Category:Indefinitely Blocked Users? 03:38, 28 December 2006 (EST)


 * If my translations are good: Permanent = Forever and indefinitely means for unknown time. With other words, the first group can't be unblocked, the other still can... Considering this is just a translation, don't take my word for it! --Patrigan - Talk - SH (EU) 07:39, 28 December 2006 (EST)


 * Hm... I think thats more a community management and procedure stuff, maybe right restrictions too (eg. only true admins can perma-ban and buerocrats can only indef-ban) - but afaik all banned users can be unbanned for obvious reasons (e.g. the typical "oops") -watchout 09:23, 28 December 2006 (EST)

Top Link Template
Is there a top link template? The one I specifically want is Wikipedia:Template:For. --Voidvector 10:57, 28 December 2006 (EST)
 * Wikipedia:Template:For uses the parse function (#if), which we do not have. Would be nice... but good luck contacting of Rustak to get them installed...   22:42, 28 December 2006 (EST)
 * Template:If, it looks like we have a working substitute. --Voidvector 09:50, 29 December 2006 (EST)


 * I just created Template:For, gonna play around with it a bit. --Voidvector 09:50, 29 December 2006 (EST)

Also, did someone host Navigation popups? --Voidvector 11:01, 28 December 2006 (EST)

Legendary two handed axes
Well ya see i am a lv.27 warrior and i use two handedaxes and my freinds told me that no legendary weapon is a two handed axe this warrior i hav i know I can get him to lv.60 in lik a year and i was wondering if it is true that no orange weapons are two handed axes? Please answer with links to the weapon (if it is true)?

--Lilolah 13:37, 28 December 2006 (EST)
 * Take a look at Category:Legendary Items - no 2H axes listed. But what you use at 27 has very little to do with what you'll use at 60 (you can't even consider using a Polearm at the moment, for instance), and a year is a long time - they may add one by then. Plus, most 60 warriors have at least two, sometimes three sets of weapons, one for each stance (2H for Battle stance, Dual wield for fury, 1H+Shield for Defensive, from what I've seen). --Bobson 14:52, 28 December 2006 (EST)

Comment your changes!
Not for the first time, I just stepped on someone's mass editing because they removed something from a page I happened to be watching without putting in a comment about the change. It's not hard to paste the same "Consolidated on page X" line onto every change, but without that comment, there's no easy way to know why you're doing it. --Bobson 08:36, 29 December 2006 (EST)


 * Usually I coimment everything, but the changes on my server pages~and user pages... -Patrigan - Talk - SH (EU) 08:48, 29 December 2006 (EST)


 * Commenting on every change if you are editing a few hundred pages gets very annoying. Jeoh 14:12, 30 December 2006 (EST)
 * Well yeah, but if it's the same change on each page, and it doesn't involve any copy/pasting, then it's easy to just paste the same line in on each page. If that's not feasible, putting in a comment can be an issue, I'll agree. --Bobson 20:37, 30 December 2006 (EST)
 * I feel if the diff speaks for itself (small changes), it's not really worth the comment. If it's a big change, or something I feel I need to justify my reasons, I'll comment.   23:41, 30 December 2006 (EST)
 * As long as you're not removing information, then yeah, the diff can speak for itself. If you're removing any significant chunk of information, without replacing it with a link to it's new home, then it still needs to be commented, I think.  --Bobson 06:04, 3 January 2007 (EST)

Best Duo
What is the best Alliance Duo (class combination) for pvp, my friend and I want to play pvp together with possible a third person what are the best class combinations and why. Thanks Hayliam

--Hayliam 19:37, 29 December 2006 (EST)

pally + mage. Pally with BoSacrifice can't be crowd controlled. Mage has the best crowd control in the game. Replace pally for priest is fine if the enemy doesn't have sheep. Replace mage with lock is fine too. Locks can't crowd control and blink, but otherwise is better against certain combos. --Voidvector 21:13, 29 December 2006 (EST)


 * Locks can crowd control better than mages... Fear, Seduce... oO Locks > mages also in damage nowadays and they have SoulLlink if they go for real PvP --Patrigan - Talk - SH (EU) 05:55, 30 December 2006 (EST)

Preferences page style problems
The Preferences Page has some severe visual style problems that make it difficult to use. Backgrounds are white with white text, tabs are poorly styled. It looks like the correct stylesheet isn't being applied here. --Ziana 18:01, 30 December 2006 (EST)


 * Known, and we're working on sorting it out. For now, select the text to see it :) -- Kirkburn  (talk) 18:21, 30 December 2006 (EST)


 * Sorting it out? We CAN'T fix it, we don't have access to the CSS and Rustak is MIA.   23:52, 30 December 2006 (EST)


 * Perhaps some other(s) should have full administrative access to the server? I saw the delay in updating the logo mentioned elsewhere too. --Ziana 15:30, 1 January 2007 (EST)


 * It's kind of a cyclical problem, since we'd need Rustak in order to do that, too. Although I certainly agree. 15:32, 1 January 2007 (EST)


 * I don't mean to sound alarmist, but hearing about this just worries me a bit. WoWWiki has developed into a fantastic resource. I'm concerned about issues like are backups being made regularly, is the ISP bill being paid, should there be an attack on the server can anyone respond, etc. The domain name expires in 2010, so that at least isn't an immediate concern. --Ziana 15:40, 1 January 2007 (EST)

Community teams suggestion
Check out Wowpedia talk:Community teams please! -- Kirkburn  (talk) 18:53, 30 December 2006 (EST)

Template:Screenshot
I was thinking of a new Todo template the other day... Something like Template:Screenshot. "Hey, you know what this article/section needs! A screenshot of the content in question! You can help WoWWiki out by taking a screenshot, converting it to JPG/PNG, uploading it, and including it in the article! See guidelines for taking screenshots for more information." // What do you think? I think... A lot of articles could be improved with a screenshot of an object or an NPC or a sub-zone or whatever. A template or todo tag like this could help us zero in on what articles need help. --Hobinheim 11:37, 31 December 2006 (EST)

Template:Elinksmob and Template:Elinksitem
As a matter of style, shouldn't the L in the word 'Links' be written in lowercase?  APΘLLΘ (ZEUS)  11:42, 31 December 2006 (EST)


 * Yes, yes it should... --Hobinheim 12:23, 31 December 2006 (EST)


 * The templates have since been updated. --Hobinheim 12:37, 31 December 2006 (EST)
 * Template:Elinksquest still has the uppercase L. --Beep2 12:46, 31 December 2006 (EST)


 * The template has since been updated, and I feel like testing out my new signature. -- Hobinheim  ( talk ·  contr ) 12:57, 31 December 2006 (EST)


 * So do I, but I have nothing to add to the conversation. As ever. -- KB < User talk:Kirkburn · Special:Contributions/Kirkburn > 15:26, 31 December 2006 (EST)


 * Thanks for the update guys :) and on a sidenote: happy new year :). Hobinheim, I like the signature, by the way. [[File:IconSmall BloodElf Male.gif]] APΘLLΘ (ZEUS)  16:11, 31 December 2006 (EST)


 * Up yours, Apollo! =) Actually, no I do like his sig's colours more, but he got them first, so I can't copy :( Happy New Year! --  17:35, 31 December 2006 (EST)


 * Template:Elinksspell. Just spotted that :P [[File:IconSmall BloodElf Male.gif]] APΘLLΘ (ZEUS)  06:30, 2 January 2007 (EST)

More templates!
In the spirit of making as much as possible follow the same style, I was wondering if we should turn disambig notices into a template like I did with Warcraft III hero.

For example, from the Kel'Thuzad page, there's the following (emphasis added):
 * For information on how to defeat Kel'Thuzad in World of Warcraft, see  Kel'Thuzad (tactics). 
 * Are you looking for Kel'Thuzad's Warcraft III statistics? See Warcraft III Units. 

You'll notice that the italicised parts can be interchanged easily. I've seen other formats for these in-page disambigs around, though I don't remember where. If we wanted to standarize them, we could add one of two templates (or both, to give a choice):
 * Template:disambig1
 * ::For information on, see .
 * Template:disambig2
 * ::Are you looking for ? See .
 * ::Are you looking for ? See .

They'd be useful on individual pages as well as on real disambiguation pages, but it may be template-overkill. Thoughts? --Bobson 15:57, 31 December 2006 (EST)


 * I recently made For which is copying Wikipedia:Template:For. I haven't got the time to use it yet. But it is a disambiguation template as you described. --Voidvector 16:42, 31 December 2006 (EST)


 * Good work! -- 17:38, 31 December 2006 (EST)
 * Cool! --Bobson 16:21, 1 January 2007 (EST)

I think I drank too much... hic!
Shorry guysh... at leasht I didn't throw up all over the wiki... hic! 01:04, 1 January 2007 (EST)


 * Don't make me set the dogs on you. Off with ye!-- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 01:11, 1 January 2007 (EST)
 * Wiikkiiii goooonneee craaaazeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! ...hic! -- T inker  er  06:48, 1 January 2007 (EST)


 * < Ragestorm (talk · contr) sets a number of Felhounds on the useless drunks>

Format For Zones...
I just started to edit here in WoWwiki and noticed that the Quest area's in the Zones had differnt formats Mulgore and Durotar seem to be in a Quest guide type format but Ashenvale (what I've been working on) just has a List of quests. Basically I'm just wondering which way is the standard method I personally just like the Quests to be listed and wouldn't mind a link to a area guide at the top of the Quest list. My Thought is the Guide just makes the Page look to crowded. Anyway.. Just wonder what is the standard format. --Yelmurc 18:08, 1 January 2007 (EST)


 * I'm probably most at fault for that. I like writing quest guides, mainly because I hate walking around. Sometimes two quests can be done at the same time, and you'd never know that without the aid of a guide. I favor an annotated list versus a straight up list lik the one in Ashenvale, but I realize my format makes it look crowded. I've thought of forking out all my quest guide contributes into seperate pages, especially since they're very POV; maybe you disagree with my play style. I'm completely open to suggestions, leaning towards whatever makes the zone articles look cleaner.-- Hobinheim  ( talk ·  contr ) 20:07, 1 January 2007 (EST)

Well Personally I'm not sure if its just me but I do think there is a need for a walkthrough style guide thats easy to find I just don't think it should be on the main page for the Zone. I'd rather just see a List there. But I do think we need walkthrough type guides and I won't have a problem if the Guide is the first link on the quest section. But thats just me.

--Yelmurc 1 January 2007 (EST)

I've been going over some zones lately and "improving" the quest listings by adding missing quests and providing links to thottbot. When looking at a zone, I really just want a list of which quests are available there, to make sure I haven't missed any. A very quick line about what the quest needs you to do is also handy, and I've added it on some quests, but it can quickly get cluttered on smaller display sizes so not quite sure if I should keep doing it. As for walkthrough format on quests, maybe have a separate article called "Questing in Zonename" linked from the start of the Quests section for that zone? --Tarkeel 05:44, 12 January 2007 (EST)


 * I'd ask that we not at TB links via the questtb template... Like... We should emphasize the fact that we have our own articles. And TB links should only be included inside the quest article itself, not in links to the article on other pages. -- Hobinheim  ( talk ·  contr ) 07:09, 12 January 2007 (EST)


 * I would agree, but many quests don't have an article here, and those that do usually don't say much more then the in-game questlog. I personally like the elegant way that allakhazam and thottbot links are handled in the links. If i want nice and elegant data, I use the wiki, but if what I'm interested in is the raw stats behind it, I go to tb. Thats my opinion atleast :) --Tarkeel 02:35, 15 January 2007 (EST)

Spelling mistake on front page
There are two spelling mistakes on the front page of WoWwiki.

Shtarted in 2004, wowpedia.org now hash over 21,002 articlesh. ^                                                  ^   Here                                               and here

--Thrax 20:42, 1 January 2007 (EST)

AGI=1% crit at level 70
How much agi do you need to get 1% crit at level 70? 20 is needed at level 60... --Colinstu 22:49, 1 January 2007 (EST)


 * Best place to ask would be on the Attributes talk page. Could also be incorporated into the article. 20:41, 2 January 2007 (EST)


 * I posted a response there; mathheads please review. Luci 09:39, 6 January 2007 (EST)

Swords v Daggers
My character recently obtained the dual wield capability. I can't decide whether to have two swords or a dagger in off-hand and a sword in main.

I have noticed that the amount of DPS done by swords and daggers is roughly the same and this begs the question 'why should I bother with a sword'? Someone once told me that although a sword and a dagger might have exactly the same stat's, the sword will do more damage due to extra bonuses that swords get. Is this true?

P.s. I'm aware that daggers have a greater speed than swords but that's not why I'm asking this question. Fundamentally I'm asking whether swords have a different formula or different bonuses than daggers.

--Cdfreelancer 02:19, 2 January 2007 (EST)
 * I don't claim to know all the advantages of one over the other, but there's a few I know of off hand, and they're mostly concerned with Formulas:Instant_Melee_Attacks|instant attacks. Since there's very few abilities which give you an instant attack with the off hand (Stormstrike and Mutilate are the only two I know of), it's less of an issue for the offhand weapon than the main hand.
 * Daggers use a 1.7 speed multiplier for instant attacks, swords use a 2.4
 * Daggers are usually faster for the same DPS, and thus have less base damage for instant attack calculations (conversely, a +damage enchant might help them more)
 * My impression is that swords usually have better stats and/or procs
 * Anyone else want to chime in? Is there enough material to make a whole page? --Bobson 07:59, 2 January 2007 (EST)


 * Unless swords use a different formula then surely daggers must be the better choice as they are faster? I've been checking in the auction house and both daggers and swords of a comparable level appear to have roughly the same stats. --Cdfreelancer 21:59, 2 January 2007 (EST)
 * I think the general rule of thumb is daggers are faster and have more even damage output; swords are slow but hit big so have burstier damage. It may also depend on your class; for example, Rogues have a whole bunch of skills that are dagger-specific. Swords vs daggers is one of the great Rogue debates (though itemization and talents seem to be swinging the pendulum back towards Daggers at the moment) Luci 09:21, 3 January 2007 (EST)
 * That's always the question - speed vs. damage. A crit from a sword will hurt more than a crit from a dagger, but the dagger will crit more often (more attacks -> more crits).  If you have on-crit abilities, like Flurry and Unleashed Rage, or on-hit abilites like Shamanistic Rage or Windfury, you may want to go with more hits/crits.  If you have instant attack abilities like Windfury and Stormstrike, you may want a weapon which does more on those hits.  I don't think rogues have any on-crit abilities, but their poisons are all on-hit.  They have a lot of instant attacks too, including Sinister Strike.  Best thing to do would probably be to get a fight DPS meter and a sword and a dagger that are roughly equivalent, then go see how it works for you.  --Bobson 10:21, 3 January 2007 (EST)
 * I know a lot of rogues will go swords while leveling up. The reason for this is that there are a lot more good swords out there in the mid levels than daggers. Once rogues hit the cap, they'll often switch to daggers since there are quite a few good high level daggers plus they can use more of their abilities. - ClydeJr 12:17, 3 January 2007 (EST)
 * Its a big debate among rogues. Swords V.S. Daggers!!   From my in game experience, they both have their uses.  Swords is DEFFINATLY the better lvling spec,  seeing has how you don't get a good dagger move unless you stealth every time, or are behind your target.  When I lvl rogues, I don't bother with steathing until 20-22. (Minus sneaking for a quick quest)  Daggers is the stronger PvP spec,  2-3k ambush on clothies seems to have a bigger impact rather than a 4sec CS stun.   When Raiding,  Either is a viable spec,  both bring dif things to the table, and both put out huge dmg.  Whatever you feel comfortable with at a raiding lvl is the best spec for you.  If your happy with your spec, and can remain attentive/have fun during raids,  You'll do more dmg than the bored rogue who doesn't want to be there.  Thats why guilds requiring classes to spec a certain way is SOO stupid!!!!!(Minus the MT of the guild,  sorry bro you MUST be prot)

MediaWiki Markup
Does anyone know of an editor with MediaWiki Markup syntax highlighting? Kate's seems to trip up on some symbols. --Amro 03:59, 2 January 2007 (EST)

Discussion on featured articles
Wowpedia talk:Featured articles. Please share your thoughts. APΘLLΘ (ZEUS)  06:22, 2 January 2007 (EST)

Icon!
Yup, it's changed. Three cheers for Rustak!

See people, this is why the IRC channel rocks! He's back from a holiday and says he'll try and do some other stuff soon. -- 20:30, 2 January 2007 (EST)


 * I think getting the CSS wiki pages working is his next priority *grin* 21:00, 2 January 2007 (EST)


 * If he does, consider this temporary category: Category:Pages needing margin removal. Along with maybe killmargin. 21:02, 2 January 2007 (EST)

Stub/NPC vs. Stub/Mob
Link to my unanswered stub-policy question: Wowpedia talk:Policy/Stub. --Beep2 10:12, 3 January 2007 (EST)

What would you like botted?
One day, soon, maybe... I'll be launching a bot to roam unassisted to demote all instances of the first level heading (the one that looks = Like This = ) in articles, as per an earlier discussion we had about the fact that we shouldn't use them. The bot won't touch guild and fan site articles, unless you want it to... Anyway, my question was, did you have any other requests for really, really common tasks you feel you want botted. Don't mention converting honor token templates, that's already on my list. -- Hobinheim  ( talk ·  contr ) 16:25, 3 January 2007 (EST)
 * Double redirects, misspellings, links to Thottbot/Alla/Wowhead when internal links available, category merges. --Voidvector 16:52, 3 January 2007 (EST)
 * Item/Quest link formating. --Voidvector 17:29, 3 January 2007 (EST)
 * Auto-correcting Category assignments? Example, if the Weaponpage is a Mace, check is Category Waepons & Maces are tagged? --Dracomage 16:54, 3 January 2007 (EST)
 * If the Weapon is a mace, is should not be in Category:Weapons since Category:Maces is a subcategory of Weapons. -- Adys (talk · contr) 19:39, 3 January 2007 (EST)
 * Aye. it'd be silly to stick items in 1000 categories, just because they fit in all of them. while. a dagger is a weapon as well as a one handed weapon. doesn't mean it should fit go in all 3 of those categories ( as sometimes happens ). 02:52, 4 January 2007 (EST)
 * If you do demote any = = headers, make sure to check to see if there's any 2nd level (or lower) headers on the page and demote them all equally. Otherwise, it could mess up the TOC boxes. --Bobson 07:11, 5 January 2007 (EST)
 * Your bot broke any headings which had "<font color=" in them. I'm about to fix Warcraft II Units, but you might want to check to see what other pages got affected. --Bobson 14:01, 7 January 2007 (EST)

Jennala, Elunaia and Hanalee
Can anyone tell me about Jennala, Elunaia and Hanalee? They are relate to the High Elves. The key of three moons is made from them. --0998042 02:17, 4 January 2007 (EST)

Class Quests
I just wanted to know if there is a reason the class pages do not have a link on them to lead you to their class quests.--Yelmurc 11:31, 4 January 2007 (EST)


 * No reason. Add it if you like. 11:40, 4 January 2007 (EST)

Manual of Style
I've put a Manual of Style up for discussion as a proposed guideline. I'd like to emphasize that I'm not suggesting that the content as it is now be adopted; it's just my individual opinions on what makes an article look good. Rather, what exists now can be used as a starting point for community discussion and the development of a style guide through consensus.--Aeleas 15:32, 4 January 2007 (EST)


 * I love it! Would be greated to have this linked in both the editing help, and maybe right from the edit pages. --Ziana 17:55, 4 January 2007 (EST)

'Special' page beautifying!
You may have notice several mediawiki/special pages getting a bit of a facelift recently. It's me :)

Does anyone have any suggestions for improvements or know of other pages to fix up? Tell me here! -- 15:37, 4 January 2007 (EST)

Subpages Guideline?
Wondering if one of the admins or someone who's been here a while could add some info to Wowpedia:Subpages? Currently in a discussion with someone else regarding the Server:Silver_Hand page, and whether it's better to have content on one main page, or break it into subpages. --Ziana 17:56, 4 January 2007 (EST)
 * I put my comments on Talk:Server:Silver Hand. Edit: Going to work on Wowpedia:Subpages sometime in the future. 12:29, 5 January 2007 (EST)


 * I've put a little work into Wowpedia:Subpages, but more is needed :) -- 17:32, 5 January 2007 (EST)

Hunters Mend Pet
How much does +healing gear effect the Hunter spell Mend Pet? I know it does, but haven't been able test it very well. I use my Boar to tank 5 mans, and wanna get my Mend Pet ticking for like 5-600  (I've gotten it up to about 300) 16:53, 5 January 2007 (EST)
 * Unless you are plan to tank in a raid, it is not worth it. I haven't done any research but I can bet with fair certainty that any healer class would be able to have better mana efficiency or time efficiency with their heals than Mend Pet. In addition, you won't be able to shoot while mending pet, in a 5-man group, that would be a huge loss of damage output.
 * That said, you can calculate how much more heal you are getting from +heal equipments. Remove all equipment, see what is the base heal per tick for Mend Pet. Then put on your equipments, see how much you have improved. Count all the +heal you have from your equipments. Divide the improvement over the +heal you have, and you would get the Mend Pet coefficient. --Voidvector 22:37, 5 January 2007 (EST)
 * Anyway, to answer your question, since Mend Pet is a channelled spell that lasts 5 seconds, it will receive a 42.86% (rounded up) bonus. So if you have +100 healing, your heals would tick for (1225+42,86)/5=253,57 per tick :) (Double check requested ;)) --Jeoh 03:46, 7 January 2007 (EST)
 * My cat tanked Broodlord for about 6 sec, only cuz he didn't get healz.  And with my Boar, I've been able to tank MC trash fairly easy.  Just the constant stream from Mend Pet helps the healers.   Thanks for the info, I'll have to test it out. 15:41, 8 January 2007 (EST)

Renaming a page?
I'm rusty, sorry. I managed to categorize Raid/LootRow but realize it should be named "Template:" and I've forgotten how to change page names / don't trust myself to do so without screwing something up. In addition, there may already be an existing template which will serve better, but this is not something in which I'm wildly expert so I thought I'd kick it up to all y'all smart people. The template is used exclusively in Karazhan Loot. Luci 20:40, 5 January 2007 (EST)


 * Use a redirect? I did that w/ some of my T4 pages. --Colinstu 01:35, 6 January 2007 (EST)


 * Would that work with included templates? I assumed not, but then again what do I know. Luci 02:30, 6 January 2007 (EST)
 * I did manage to move Thorm Skywatcher to User:TheMonkeyKing/Thorm Skywatcher, citing the WP:NAME policy, so I have at least figured that one out. Templates are... just not something I'm comfortable with slinging around as easily. Luci 03:18, 6 January 2007 (EST)


 * There are several solutions to your problem. The first would be to write a ":" in your template link. (Behind the {{ but before the actual link) This will have the same effect as a normal template, but due to the ":" it will not put template: in front of it. Other way is to use the move button on top of the article and move it to the new page. Make sure that there isn't already an existing template on the page you want it to be. Hope this helped --Patrigan - Talk - SH (EU) 05:46, 6 January 2007 (EST)

Nice looking server articles
I know you guys were looking for nice looking server articles for PR, or something like that. Server:Mal'Ganis US is a nice one. Beautification work done by Gryphon. It's more complex than most server articles should be, but it's damn pretty. 22:27, 6 January 2007 (EST)
 * It is damn pretty :) --Colinstu 11:24, 7 January 2007 (EST)


 * Myeah, I'm probably going to take that one for the looks, though it just has the most basic of all content, that's what saddens me a bit ^^ But, I'll just work with several Server pages I guess. --Patrigan - Talk - SH (EU) 12:13, 7 January 2007 (EST)


 * I could see incorperating some elements into many server articles, but certainly not all. I'd certainly rather see a wiki page rather than a full table-defined structure. 17:12, 7 January 2007 (EST)

Where do Book items in game go?
Before I go off on a cat tangent, which is not my job and I'm notorious for doing it wrong lol, I'd like to bring up the question of where In-Game books that cannot be read should be placed? For example, I'm currently adding wowbox templates to novels and written sources, and going through the Books category I keep running into books such as Garona: A Study on Stealth and Treachery which aren't quite in-game books as it cannot be read, but they're not real books either.

So I was just wondering what the qualification of the Book category is, whether its real life books or any book relating to Warcraft that doesn't qualify as an In-Game book. Thanks in advance! --Magnus 16:03, 7 January 2007 (EST)

is 2.0 considered BC?
2.0 included a lot of stuff that was initially promised for BC, such as the reworked honor system, redone talents, etc. Is that content considered "BC"? I mean, you don't have to have bought the expansion to have the new talents. Just wondering whether there is a general rule of thumb on whether things like Combat Potency should be included in Category:Burning Crusade. Obviously things like Blood elf are definitively on the BC side, but there is kind of a middle area of things that are in-game now. --Luci 20:36, 7 January 2007 (EST)


 * By my books, talents are not BC content, since it is already available. However, some stuff are borderline, e.g. Arena, which is already available but its ranking and reward system are not. --Voidvector 20:55, 7 January 2007 (EST)


 * Only major content that is exclusively available to those with TBC should get the T:Bc template. -- 22:19, 7 January 2007 (EST)


 * This brings up two interesting questions. If an item is found in Outland, can it be traded to someone without a Burning Crusade account? And two, if a treant falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound? -- Hobinheim  ( talk ·  contr ) 23:17, 7 January 2007 (EST)


 * Regarding your first question, this should answer it. Regarding the 2nd question, because no one is there, the server won't even populate the treant. =) --Voidvector 23:51, 7 January 2007 (EST)


 * And for practical purposes, anything that someone could not go and get or do by themselves without purchasing BC should get the BC tag, even if it can be traded to people who don't have BC. 01:07, 8 January 2007 (EST)


 * Just saw this, and dicussed it in the chat briefly before. If it is viewable and usuable by a non-BC player, it is not BC only content. The article would still have relevance and great importance to those without BC and still accesable by them. Theoreticall, no article is ever BC only, but parts of an article can be. This was part of a dicussion on the difference between article and inline templates. -- Zeal ( talk  -  contr  - web) 21:45, 10 January 2007 (EST)


 * This is why I suggest it is only used for (major) articles like Zangarmarsh, Shattrath, etc... 22:04, 10 January 2007 (EST)

Realms (Server) page out dated
The last update to the pasge was August 2006. Since then a load of new servers have been added to the Realm list. Could I ask that the people that perform the maintenance on this page update it? Thank you. --Dracomage 06:52, 8 January 2007 (EST)


 * You could always, you know, update it yourself... -- Hobinheim  ( talk  ·  contr ) 07:31, 8 January 2007 (EST)


 * I would, but had limited time to devote to helping the Wiki past couple of weeks. I hope to return soon. --Dracomage 10:00, 9 January 2007 (EST)

Speculation
Can we make sure that all speculation is clearly marked with speculation. I've just had several high-profile instances pointed out to me (on the radio!) where speculation was not clearly marked and had become part of the main article. This will not do. If we are to be respected as a good source of info, opinions must be marked as such with no exceptions. Do not forget to use cite as well! Thanks, 21:34, 8 January 2007 (EST)
 * It is not an easy line to draw. For example in Origin of the Races, it is a known fact that most if not all trolls descended from the Zandalar trolls. While the theory elves descended from trolls is a speculation that was created by Blizzard. --Voidvector 22:16, 8 January 2007 (EST)
 * And while most inspiration sections in lore articles have a certain amount of ambiguity in them, others don't. You can't mark the Wyvern or Naga inspiration sections as speculation, because those are either discussed or directly copied, but you can apply the tag to dwarves and elves. -- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 23:47, 8 January 2007 (EST)
 * I disagree one that point. The word "inspiration" indicates that the one is inspired from the other. Since the comparison is with real life counterpart, it is obviously the text is trying to say real-life element inspired Warcraft element.
 * I agree with the resemblance in most cases. However, unless Metzen/Blizzard come out and say "I thought about (insert real-life stuff) when I created (insert Warcraft race)." We have no way of proofing the inspiration (hence by definition it's speculation on part of the fans). The best we can do is show the similarities. If we were to keep that section, I recommended changing the name on the ground that the word "inspiration" is misleading. --Voidvector 00:18, 9 January 2007 (EST)


 * I don't think it's that hard of a line to draw, if we develop some standards. To me the question is, "What can I cite this claim to?"  If the answer is, "Nothing," it's speculation.
 * I wouldn't consider discussing uncertain lore to be speculation. There are various competing theories expressed in the lore regarding racial origins, but those theories can simply be described and cited.  "According to night elf beliefs, they are descended from Elune, while certain sources suggest they evolved from trolls."  A chart merely needs to clarify which theory it is illustrating.
 * Speculation comes into the picture where we have theories that have no official source, for example (as far as I know) "gnomes may be descended from mountain giants". To me, in a complex article like Origin of the Races, the competing official versions are complex enough without any fan-made theories.
 * I'd consider Old Gods and Old Gods speculation an example of where the practice of separating speculation from official lore is working well. We have a strong, clean article on a complex topic.  Where the lore is contradictory, the various sources are described.  All speculation is relegated to a single line in the "See also" section.  (The fact that Old Gods speculation is something of a mess just demonstrates how unmanageable speculative articles inherently are, IMO.  On what basis do you judge the likeliness of someone else's theory?)
 * WP:LORE recommends that speculation be placed in a separate article, but allows it in separate sections of the main article. That could probably be strengthened, to disallow all speculation in main articles.  It tends to creep from it's section into the intro, into the infobox, and before you know it, it's a full-blown infestation.
 * Of course, there is no way to separate the chaff from the wheat, the speculation from the official information, without just about everything in an article being cited.--Aeleas 00:13, 9 January 2007 (EST)


 * There is no problem with speculation being in the main article when correctly displayed under a seperate heading (no you don;t need to go round citing every thing to show it as fact, it's all fact except when otherwise noted). This is lacking in many articles, and recent realization brought to his attention is why Kirkburn he has brought this up. Speculation has been slipping into history sections etc. It's very easy to draw the line between official lore (with in-universe and official speculation), and speculation from fans. There is never a reason for this to become blurred. Any place where speculation is not clearly marked is essentially false information and should be treated as such. Speculation details however do need to be moved off page where needed. Preferablly a sub-page about the theory itself, and the talk page used to discuss it's validity, is what should be aimed for. Origin of the Races, as i've pointed out in its talk page, is an awful article. It should not be used as an example of speculation gone awry, but wiki articles gone very wrong. Old God Speculation is an article that's taking the road of Origin of the Races fast.. there are so many conflicting theories going on there and random peices of lore, that it's a complete mess. Those theories need their own pages and properly explained so the page is understandable and has a reason for existing. What's the point of stating theory if you're not going to explain it for people to understand it? -- Zeal ( talk  -  contr  - web) 04:54, 9 January 2007 (EST)
 * We were on the radio? Cool! --Bobson 08:35, 9 January 2007 (EST)


 * Yes and I was (unfairly) insulted live on air. Not best pleased was I, hence my above comment. Zeal has the right of it - when people scan-read articles, anything that's in a 'factual' area will be taken to be true because of where it was. This has lead to people believing that we're a bad source for info ... despite all the examples I was pointed to already saying they were speculation! 09:50, 9 January 2007 (EST)


 * The only way that a wiki can generate any sort of confidence in the reader is by making extensive use of citation in every article. Unless I can see where the info in an article came from to confirm it, I am going to disregard it as unreliable, as should anyone reading a wiki.
 * In practical terms, without extensive citation, unless an editor has a perfect and complete recall of the content of all official sources, he or she isn't going to be able to distinguish between situations like "night elves evolved from trolls" and "gnomes evolved from mountain giants" unless one is cited and the other isn't.
 * As I said earlier I agree that Old Gods speculation is in a terrible state. Revise it, add subpages, but personally I think speculation articles and sections naturally devolve into that sort of chaos, with theories, counter-theories, and objections constantly being added.  I think a lot of editors are turned off by the prospect of trying to regulate someone else's opinions, and readers by reading them.  Keeping a main article completely speculation-free sets a clear, higher standard, and improves the likelihood someone will be encouraged to both read and improve an article.--Aeleas 11:01, 9 January 2007 (EST)


 * Citation is honestly the worst idea ever imo (especially as most of it is paraphased, taken out of context or misinterpreted so you're not actually citing true information). Yes all sources for what is said in the article should be listed, but citaing every quote and peice of information in an article is not only imposible, but messy. When you get to that level, you'll find you're breaking copyright laws with the amount of information you're having to quote directly just for "confidence", which is ridiculous. The reverse, is no citation, no sources, no quotes, so people consider it false information and unrelialbe. Neither are desirable.
 * It's better to simply have the most obvious approach for the reader. Everything factual on the page except under the speuclation section, sources (as categories imo) given for the entire page, and speculation with off links under it's own section on the page. I don't agree speculation should be removed from articles, it's clear enough to just say they exist under a speculation header. It's the theories themselves that belong on other pages, they should be linked to. -- Zeal ( talk  -  contr  - web) 22:34, 9 January 2007 (EST)


 * I agree that speculation should definitely be contained as much as possible. Articles are resources and should be kept up-to-date and tidy. However, I also agree with Aeleas that it's nearly impossible to regulate the multitude of theories and opinions that crop up -- not just with giving each opinion its own equal voice, but also in regulating the emotions that go along with it. (People hold pretty tightly do their pet theories.) I think most, if not all, additions to speculation pages should go on the talk page first. Theories are only ever useful if they're well developed. I'd rather not have any hard and fast rules for that sort of thing, like requiring an okay from an admin or something ridiculous, but I'd definitely suggest a guideline that substantive additions to speculative pages require a discussion first. P.S. I like citations, personally. Primary sources ftw. 00:40, 10 January 2007 (EST)


 * Just to clarify myself, Talk:Origin_of_the_Races were i've talked about how speculation should really be handled. It means they're managed easily and without effecting the relevent articles intergrity. If someone feels strongly about a theory, they should be able to write up and article on to explain their theory. Let the community then decide if it's valid. Linking to it as speculation doesn't damage the main article in any way, but allows such theorizing and speculation to still take place. -- Zeal ( talk  -  contr  - web) 00:51, 10 January 2007 (EST)


 * Copyright hasn't been much of an issue on this wiki, though perhaps it should be. Since our entire content consists of information from Blizzard sources, good citation would be a critical component of establishing fair use.  (I'm assuming the wiki servers fall under US law).
 * Citation is not the same as quotation. Citation is giving the source of a piece of information, like so.  To the extent that we do use verbatim quotes from official material, citation is obviously required to avoid plagiarism.  But even where we are not using the original wording, the reproduction of specific aspects of Blizzard's works, such as character descriptions and storylines, should still be well-cited.--Aeleas 02:33, 10 January 2007 (EST)


 * I know it's not. Thing i was trying to get through, is citation doesn't work, and why quotation is better, but not posible. It's more common than you think, to cite something which actually is an interpretation of what is said, not what is actually said (which can usually only be maintained by a direct quote). That is providing false information as fact, and it has the potential to change things greatly. Why i favour 'sourcing' over citation, and why i hate copyright laws.. -- Zeal ( talk  -  contr  - web) 02:50, 10 January 2007 (EST)


 * What you describe is, in my experience, a problem with the lack of citation, not the use of it. Without citation, loose interpretation and faulty information remains in the article, but is harder to identify, and it is extremely difficult to find the original source to correct it.  With long and complex articles pulling from half a dozen different sources, editors lose the ability to identify and correct errors, misleading statements, speculation, and editor POV.  It's only if a statement is cited that an editor can verify that the statement is a correct and accurate reflection of what is stated in the source.
 * I think this is a problem that becomes more apparent the longer one spends here, and watches the way some articles evolve, a few devolve, and some stagnate.--Aeleas 11:00, 10 January 2007 (EST)


 * I can only assume you misunderstand me, i can't exaplin it much better. Citation gets plonked on the end of interpretation resulting in false information. Eventually this gets checked and you see quotes used instead, to make sure terms and other things are accurate. Then you realize, the page looks like an overly cited mess of quotes. That's how i've seen it evolve on the wiki, and that is how citation always ends up. -- Zeal ( talk  -  contr  - web) 18:57, 10 January 2007 (EST)


 * But without citation, how does the false information get checked at all? How could I, for example, verify whether or not Garona's last name really is "Halforcen" if it isn't cited?--Aeleas 22:36, 10 January 2007 (EST)


 * I've talked this through with Kirkburn after recent events i wasn't happy about being sparks from poor citations. He understood where i was coming form and i beleive agreed with me on the matter. Basically, only quotes should be cited. Any paraphasing or interpretations should be refrenced (i was calling it sourced if it helps clear up everything i said previous). Ideally, in the future, this will be through the refrencing module, but for now, a refrence section with a list of the sources used on the page. Only important and key things should ever need cited this way and they must be 100% correct and be a quote to receive a citation. Where as refrences should strive to be as accurate as they can, without neeeding quotes, and provide a source for users to check the finer details themselves. Generally any web source would be more easily refrenced than cited, where as products would be best cited where needed and refrenced where not. -- Zeal ( talk  -  contr  - web) 22:46, 10 January 2007 (EST)

Google ads and wow hacks
Google ads selling gold, power leveling and hack software. Is this something you intended to be advertised here?

I was just reading some pages in here as was quite disapointed to see links to WoW Hacks exploits and WoW Glider.

If you are not indending displaying these kinds of ads suggest you filter them out of your google adsense. --Mehuge 11:06, 9 January 2007 (EST)


 * Gernally this is why Blizzard don't accept fan-sites with Google ads, you can filter them out, but there are new ones you miss added constantly. Can't really do much about it other than continue to retroactively filter them out when they appear. -- Zeal ( talk  -  contr  - web) 22:21, 9 January 2007 (EST)

User Page Allowed Content?
I did some searching, but did not find anything which answers my question, so here you go. What is allowed/not allowed on our own USER page. Can I list things which I find useful, such as my preferred talent trees, strategies, etc? A (non-wiki-linked) list of the characters I have? Would I basically give an overview on the User page and add that type of content to my User Talk page? Just wanted to verify what's proper before I did anything. Thanks.

--Recluse 07:36, 10 January 2007 (EST)
 * You can put anything you want that doesn't violate policy (i.e. links to gold sellers, links you get paid for, datamined images, bug exploits...) onto your own user page. The talk page is more for people to discuss changes you've made or want to make, or for getting in touch with you.  My impression is that it's bad form to edit someone else's user page, but their talk page is fair game (and generates a notice on the top of every page they load until you go look at it). --Bobson 08:03, 10 January 2007 (EST)
 * As for editing others' user pages, I don't think you even can - Haven't tried, of course, but on Wikipedia, for example, you don't get the option to - but that could be in the MediaWiki's config files, not sure. Thanks for the other info there about what content I can have.--Recluse 08:50, 10 January 2007 (EST)
 * Nope, not protected here. I just "defaced" your user page ;) --Bobson 09:01, 10 January 2007 (EST)
 * A lot of the user pages have move locks so you can't move them to something else (helps in cases of vandalism). I'm pretty sure my user page can't be moved by anyone but an admin. I think most of the admins (like Kirkburn) have their pages edit locked as well. - ClydeJr 11:02, 10 January 2007 (EST)

Copyright policy
I've put a draft policy for discussion (another one!) at Wowpedia:Copyright policy. The above discussion on speculation in articles got me thinking about the subject, and the more I thought, the more concerned I became, since this isn't a topic in which we want to attract Blizzard's attention. Have a look, and after some discussion, it can be put up for a vote.--Aeleas 13:55, 10 January 2007 (EST)

Post-patch updating
I had a thought - whenever Blizzard releases a big patch that changes a bunch of things (any 2.x patch, and this most recent 2.0.3 patch, for examples), a lot of information goes out of date, and it takes a little while until it's cought up. Maybe we should have a banner we can add to pages quickly to say they have information invalidated by the newest patch and are awaiting updating? Sure, it'd be better to just make the changes, but the changes aren't always easy and/or fast and/or obvious at first. Adding a little "See the patch notes for changes" banner could be useful. --Bobson 15:30, 10 January 2007 (EST)


 * You would suggest using accuracy, though the template may require some editing to make it 'fit' better. Good idea, however. Too many templates spoils the broth. 20:52, 12 January 2007 (EST)

Raiding
Welp, the cap is rising to 70. I dunno if this is the right place to ask, but what's going to happen to onyxia and naxx? All that good stuff. Is it all gonna be BoE and will be farmed easily once a week? Or are they just going to be abandoned? Personally I'll still want Dreadnaught, if only for looks. :) --Kwertz0r 01:54, 11 January 2007 (EST)
 * Since the Village Pump is more for discussion about the wiki, this isn't the best place to ask. I'd suggest doing some research on the forums or posting on the general forum. However, your best bet might just be to ask friends whose opinions you respect, because everyone's going to have a different answer to that. 02:27, 11 January 2007 (EST)
 * From what I've read, tier 1 items will start being replaced right away in level 61-62. Tier 2 gear can last until around the mid-60s. Tier 3 can last all the way up until 70. We might even see an increase of raiding in places like Blackwing Lair and Naxxramas due to the fact that a lot of smaller, less hardcore guilds can tackle them with higher level characters. Speaking from personal experience, my guild has only made it halfway through the Molten Core due to the fact that we have problems filling out an entire 40 man raid. I can't wait to get to higher levels so we won't need as many people. - ClydeJr 10:11, 11 January 2007 (EST)
 * Of course, if you've spent all the time to aquire all of a given set (especially 0.5), you may want to hold onto it for the set bonuses even if something marginally better individually comes along. And keeping in mind the usual difference between green and blue items, there shouldn't be anyone replacing any Tier gear with random greens until they hit 64 or so. Quest rewards and new instance drops are a different story, of course.  On the other hand, I haven't looked at any of the items so it's quite possible that a 61-green is equivalent to a 59-blue (instead of a 50-blue). --Bobson 11:00, 12 January 2007 (EST)
 * Blizzard clearly stated that they do not want to see the current raid dungeons to become farming places for 10-man grps, so they made the bosses match their level to the level of the highest player in the raid.--FallingDown 11:09, 12 January 2007 (EST)
 * Source it and I believe you. Otherwise to me your information is false, as Blizzard stated otherwise last time I've checked. Current instances will NOT be touched. --Patrigan - Talk - SH (EU) 14:18, 12 January 2007 (EST)
 * I don't have a source, but Blizzard has stated that current instances will be left alone. They're planning on using the Heroic difficulty level to encourage players at 70 to go back to old raids and get 70-level epics. 15:56, 12 January 2007 (EST)
 * I'm pretty sure about that. I either read it on one of the news-sites or the blizz forums. I'm searching for it right now, unfortunately blizz disabled the text search for their forums so it might take a while. --FallingDown 00:26, 13 January 2007 (EST)
 * Sorry about posting this at the top, and thanks for the input. I'll ask around and see what others will be doing as well. Seems as if some would do it with 60's still if only for nostalgia. :) But I dunno. --Kwertz0r 04:18, 13 January 2007 (EST)
 * From what I understand, raid bosses act as (player level)+3 for the purposes of hit table generation. That means that regardless of your level, the hit/crit/miss/glancing/cruching and spell resist rates will be the same (eg you won't avoid crushing blows or spells just by being higher level). However the bosses will still have the same number of hitpoints as they do now, and hit for the same amount, whereas you'll have significantly more hitpoints and hit much harder, making the bosses easier. --Karrion 18:15, 14 January 2007 (EST)
 * If anyone has any blue/official links for this information I'm sure it would be greatly appreciated. Karrion's info seems to be the general consensus on the Raids & Dungeons forum, but I've yet to see where it comes from? --Anaea 09:24, 23 January 2007 (EST)
 * Here's a recent blue post verifying that boss mobs act as (Level)+3 towards a particular player in terms of hit table generation. --Blackspirit 15:21, 26 January 2007 (EST)

I see the new armor sets, but missed on
I see that someone added the new dungeon sets and the rest of T5, but one is still missing... Grand Marshal armor (or High warlord for you horde I guess). It is not the arena armor.... arena and gm is different specs. BCspy's site has the gm specs, they also had the gm armor vendor in SW for like a day on the PTR. --Colinstu 18:13, 11 January 2007 (EST)


 * We know, however, if you feel like it, try making a similar page to what we made (with the right information, posting false information will most likely get you banned) If you do that, we'll make sure it looks nice. The wowwiki supports on everyone visiting it, if you make 1 small change once in a while, then everyone is already happy ^^ Either way, we'll get to it :) --Patrigan - Talk - SH (EU) 05:03, 12 January 2007 (EST)


 * Is there a way to me to make copies of multiple pages and change some things (names)? Who ever made the T5 pages just copied all the info from T4 and changed the names (stats not yet). Is there a way I can do that with a couple clicks vs, make a new page, new window, ctrl+a, ctrl+c, back to new page, ctrl+v? It takes forever to do that. --Colinstu 16:22, 12 January 2007 (EST)


 * You could do your editing off-line and copy a text-file as a model for the pages you want to create. Then you can just paste the contents into each new page. Not sure if that's exactly what you're going for. 19:02, 12 January 2007 (EST)

Article move
I am trying to move all the Blizzard employee articles to their real name (if known). However, there are a few which I can't because the destination pages had prior content but was later converted into a redirect. (Shane Dabiri and Tom Chilton) Need admin help on those. --Voidvector 23:25, 12 January 2007 (EST)


 * Sorted! 11:48, 13 January 2007 (EST)


 * Much thanks --Voidvector 17:10, 13 January 2007 (EST)

Should I go with Fire, Frost, or Arcane?
I'm a mage and I have been saving my talent points so I can go with just one talent. So, the question I am asking is which talent should I go with Fire, Frost, or Arcane? --Candris 11:57, 13 January 2007 (EST)
 * Official Mage Forums. They can help you. --Sky2042 00:27, 14 January 2007 (EST)

Alliance Arcane Magic Use: In the context of the Blood Elves
With the addition of the Blood Elves to the Horde, there has been an intense focus, which stems an intense hatred for the Blood Elves on the basis of their use of Arcane Magics. While its been well documented that the Blood Elves are extremely interested in Arcane Magic, and some would say completely addicted, the reaction to the Blood Elves seems a little off base when the other races using Arcane Magic are looked at.

Specifically I am talking about the relationship between the Night Elves and Humans (Gnomes would fit in with Humans as well). I do not understand, from a lore basis, why the Night Elves don't explicitly look down upon Humans for their reckless use of Arcane Magic, which in the past has drawn the Burning Legion back to Azeroth. Everyone picks on the Blood Elves because they are "reckless" with their Arcane Magic, but it seems to me that there are other races belonging to the Alliance that are not looked down upon.

If anyone would have anything to add as to why this is such, I would greatly be appreciative of hearing about it. I'm new to the in-depth lore discussions, and only recently have been completely enthralled with the Blood Elves. Personally I'm trying to form the basis of why the Blood Elves are merely the "picked on" race, the downtrodden member of the greater Azerothian "family", that are necessary sometimes but normally deemed unworthy, just as Illidan is in my opinion.

--CodyJ1286 06:36, 14 January 2007 (EST)


 * The depth of the hatred stems from when Night Elf elitist Highborne, led by Azshara, were the first to become careless with their use of magic. Azshara's high councilor Xavius, directed them in tapping into the Well of Eternity and thus attracting the attention of the Burning Legion; thus bring wrath and devistation upon the Night Elves. The Highborne had already created a rift between themselves and the common Night Elves, but their hand in the Legion's invasion sealed that divide; their deep addiction to the magic that nearly detroyed thier world was a final staw that the rest of the Night Elves could not tollerate. The surviving Highborne left the Night Elves, migrating to Lordaeron, and over time became the High Elves.


 * Years of change seem to have increased the Night Elves tolerances, but that memory of what the High Elves once were, and what they did cannot be forgiven. They essentially see Human's and Gnome's use of the arcane arts, as just that, a use; but the High Elves are additcted and viewed as a danger because of the things they are willing to do for that addiction.


 * Also keep in mind that Blizzard is trying to wrap the lore around game functionality and playability.


 * --Bao 09:00, 14 January 2007 (MST)


 * I think the difference really stems from their use of magic. Just like any other tool (... that can potentially attract horrible demons) magic can be  used or abused.  Humans use magic to protect themselves, that's a very noble cause.  But the Blood Elves go too far, they're downright addicted.  Nothing embodies the abuse more than a quick run around their city.  There's magic brooms and floating bookshelves everywhere, that's a total inappropriate use for such a dangerous power, if you ask me.


 * Magic is a lot like morphine, it's powerful and can be used for good... but if you take it too far it becomes harmfully addictive. It seems to me that to the Night Elves, Blood Elves are just that grandparent who is addicted to perscription drugs that noone in the family really likes.   22:37, 16 January 2007 (EST)


 * I'm mostly with you on this, it's why Warlocks should never have been allowed for most races imo. As a race, Orcs, Humans and Gnomes do not except warlock practice (screw the weak atempt of justifying this by RFC quests, it fails to). Blood Elves and Forsaken do however, and with the Blood Elves they are very reckless even in their basic arcane use. This is why both of those races are generally considered evil races, as despite the hows and whys they became that way, they continue to follow that path. It makes very little sense for the Night Elves to condone the use of arcane from their allies, and the same goes with Horde races, it's simply ignored in WoW, some cases for the sake of allowing people to have a class availalbe to RP or for game mechanics. Basically reckless arcance use bad, good use accepted but still frowned upon by non-arance users. --<span style="background-color: #111; border-left: 1px #444 solid; border-right: 1px #444 solid; padding: 0 0.2em;"> Zeal  talk   contr  web 03:14, 17 January 2007 (EST)

Interesting pictures from WoW alpha days
I found this blog by someone who posted some pictures from WoW alpha days. Have a look. I am not gonna bother uploading them, since some of the pictures are borderline data mining or whatever. --Voidvector 21:31, 14 January 2007 (EST)


 * The Noggaholic team is not something WoWWiki wants to be affiliated with i'm sure, Blizzard has enough hatred towards then as it is, and i'm sure anyone who considers themselves a legitimate explorer does too. And yes, they are datamined and/or from private servers. --<span style="background-color: #111; border-left: 1px #444 solid; border-right: 1px #444 solid; padding: 0 0.2em;"> Zeal  talk   contr  web 21:45, 14 January 2007 (EST)


 * Yes, please do not upload these pictures. However, despite Noggaholic's negative comments, they're actually quite interesting to look over, since old farts like me might remember the changes they mention. 09:30, 15 January 2007 (EST)

New policy vote
This one is on the lore policy, and how to handle such source as D&D creatures used in the RPG. It's located here.--Aeleas 12:14, 16 January 2007 (EST)

Resistance gear update

 * Template_talk:Resistlinks : posted a concept, and planning. 05:50, 17 January 2007 (EST)
 * WTB Feedback some more 09:29, 19 January 2007 (EST)

What did you think?
So now that BC is out, what are everyones thoughts?

Suprizingly enough my server was stable for 80% of the day, then EVERYONE logged into Outlands and it went down hill from there.

Also, what did you do the first day? I Cleared From questing and selling stuff I made 250g and managed to hit 62. (Was on for a strait 22 1/2 hours :)  )
 * Hellfire Ramparts 8 Times
 * The Blood Furnace 3 Times
 * The Slave Pens 1 Time

Also 90% of the boss fight strats on the Wiki are only partially right, some leave out MAJOR fight componets!! I plan on fixing those as more testing with my 5 man group goes on. 14:05, 17 January 2007 (EST)


 * What do I think? I think we have too many Draenei Shaman Jewelcrafters! *hides own draenei shaman jewelcrafter under a rock* Also, don't bother questing in Hellfire, it's too damn clusterfu**... hit Zangar or run Hellfire instances (3-4 runs and you get a level, and shots at some nice gear.  03:24, 18 January 2007 (EST)

Fan Fiction? Is it not allowed to be nominated?
I asked a question like this when I first joined, I made some fan fiction and to myself I think they are good and would want them to be nominated, is this not allowed or can it be as long as its good? Or is it just actual lore stuff that happened in the warcraft series liek right now its Medivh?

Just wondering

--Melean 00:46, 28 September 2007 (UTC)