User talk:Ragestorm/Archive5

Cenarian Outland Hold innkeeper
Not sure where this belongs :

-- K )  (talk) 09:12, 9 December 2006 (EST)
 * He's French? -- T inker  er  10:02, 9 December 2006 (EST)


 * I have absolutely no idea. I guess the Cenarion Enclave page would work.--Ragestorm 10:54, 9 December 2006 (EST)


 * Tinkerer==> no, I've taken the picture on a french beta server.
 * Ragestorm=> Fine, I'll sumbit the picture.-- K )  (talk) 12:14, 9 December 2006 (EST)

here be spoilers
Do not read this if you care about keeping yourself pure of BC-related plot. 19:31, 17 December 2006 (EST)


 * haha, ok then. Here's a quick run-down on what I've learned about Kael'thas and his doings, heh.


 * Kael turned to the Legion to help him build his Manaforges. Said manaforges are a great threat to the stability of Netherstorm and all of Outland, as they are unstable and, if they blow, can take everything with it.  But Kael doesn't really care (outside of keeping them from blowing up, anyway), he just wants his fix.  And reinforcements, so he's lying to the remaining BE about a grand pilgrimage to Outland to join him in order to bolster his forces.


 * On top of that, from a questline in Shadowmoon Valley, it's revealed that Kael'thas has knowledge about the Cipher of Damnation, which is what Gul'dan used to sever the ties with the elements long ago. Khadgar explains that it's extremely dangerous, responsible for numerous tragedies, and not native to Draenor (possibly came from the Legion?).  That's about all I've learned thus far, but when his part of TK finally opens, I hope we learn more :) -- Maenos 23:45, 14 November 2006 (EST)


 * So basically, it's Khadgar vs. Kael'thas out there in Outland? 19:29, 17 December 2006 (EST)

I guess that's what it looks like. Curiusly, though, no mention of the Cipher is made in Rise of the Horde.--Ragestorm 19:31, 17 December 2006 (EST)


 * It could just be another name for something else we already know about. Have you finished the whole book yet? 19:33, 17 December 2006 (EST)


 * What, you mean one of the crystals? (Yes, 300 pages in a day is like a mild snack to me) --Ragestorm 19:35, 17 December 2006 (EST)


 * I'm still in the process of reading it (finally got it today), but no, those would be two of the Ata'mal crystals. As for the Cipher, the scene where the ties are cut (at least I think it is the scene, pg. 278-279) is rather vague, so it is likely there. --Maenos 23:23, 20 December 2006 (EST)


 * I have not read it yet (don't own it, but want to, because author = awesome), but my speculation was that "cipher" is a pretty vague term. Most likely it's not a crytographic algorithm, so it's probably some object or incantation. Therefore, it's possible we've seen it already in the Warcraft universe in some other form or by some other name, but I can't think of any specifics at the moment. 01:42, 21 December 2006 (EST)

Beta
I have a beta account now :), so I'll start adding in a few things as they catch my attention.Baggins 01:32, 20 December 2006 (EST)


 * Get me the text of those holograms in the Exodar- I want to see if these new names are Eredun or proper nouns.--Ragestorm 07:09, 20 December 2006 (EST)

Everything from those holographic emitters are in common. So the race names appear to be proper nouns. A dreadlord is a dreadlord, race nathrezim for example. One of the other creatures is a sub-race of another one of the races.Baggins 12:01, 22 December 2006 (EST)


 * But Dreadlords are sill labeled Nathrezim? if that's the case, then Sayaad, Anihilan, etc. can stay in the infoboxes, but NOT the pagenames. --Ragestorm 12:26, 22 December 2006 (EST)

Dreadlord is a class name, not a race name. Yes, Saccubus is a class not a race. Pit Lord is a class not a race. So yes to be truly accurate we need to create seperate articles.Baggins 12:31, 22 December 2006 (EST)


 * Don't you DARE. You've got your pagenames, just leave it at that until we meet a Nathrezim who isn't a dreadlord or a Sayaad who isn't a succubus or related class. Then, cut loose. In the meantime, feel free to add explanations or address the class vs. race issue in whatever way you think best.--Ragestorm 12:35, 22 December 2006 (EST)

Well, for now we can just have pages redirect back to the main mage, as I have done.Baggins 12:42, 22 December 2006 (EST)

Replying "Outland?"
The point of that post was to find someone who agrees with me and/or (more important) find someone who could change my point of view about those great complains I make about BCrusade. I will reply every topic.


 * "Kilrogg Deadeye, as far as we know, died in the camps."
 * Yeah, I know... that was an error in the original post, I meaned that Kilrogg son's alive =D
 * "Outland is the largest of the fragments- the original continent was much larger"
 * Wow, so the original Draenor must have been VERY VERY big, right? However, it is strange to me how the Hellfire Peninsula, the Shadowmoon Valley, the Blade Edge's Mountain, etc... are in the exatc same place of the time before de explosion
 * "Arator was in Azeroth the whole time- he survived the Third War, not the explosion"
 * That I didn't know... ok, this one I accept
 * "Obviously, Khadgar and his followers did enter one of the rifts- that's where they met the Naaru"
 * This is what the new lore says... but I'm a huge fan of Warcraft II, it becomes clear that they closed the Dark Portal moments after the "kaboom". There were no time for they to have scaped, IMO. Oh gods, I hate these lore-conflicts.
 * "Even more obviously, the explosion wasn't as apocalyptic as originally claimed"
 * Then what was the explosion like? As the lore in the official site explains, it was THE explosion, greater than the Sundering, like a gnab-gib (reverse of big-bang xD) to the planet...
 * "Khadgar being friendly to both factions has a perfectly viable lore explanation"
 * What is this explanation? You see... IMO, the Alliance Expedition did not know about the new orcish way of life... por them, the orcs are still brutal monsters who should die (as Grand Admiral Daelin Produmoore thought on War 3X), and even now I believe they have this same way of thinking (just like I believe that the Forsaken and the Blood Elves think; they did not met the New Horde and I don't believe they would do it)... anyway, Khadgar sacrificed himself to save his homeland for orcish threat; I don't suppose he would so easily ally with them (specially that he can also be friend of Blood Elf, which he apparently hate)... and, if Khadgar became friend of both Alliance both Horde, why Danath and Kurdran did not followed the archmage?
 * "What in the Nether does everyone have against draenei"
 * Well, when I saw the Draenei in the BCrusade Cinematic Trailer, I soon wanted to play with a Draenei Paladin :P (I love paladins, and the draenei in the trailer was awsome!)... however, I liked the "old" draenei (the Broken) more than this "new" ones... this new draenei can't even be rogue! But what I think I most disliked about the new draenei lore is the fact that the Holy Light should be a very complex religion to exist in the same ways in the Humans of Azeroth and the naaru (who later would pass their religion to the draenei). This just didn't make sense to me. And Blood Elves are much more cool :P

Well, thanks for the points.


 * Where can you find this closing dialogue? In WoW? And about the explosion, you can see it in Warcraft II, in the official story at blizz's site, and there are some references in War 3 TFT, specially in Kael'Thas campaing. --Gollum 08:43, 21 December 2006 (EST)

In this narrative, I believe the "rift" is the Dark Portal, right? Oh, I will play War II again for curiosity :P... anyway, does the "Rise of the Horde" book shred some light on this question? (no spoilers please :])

on a complete unrelated note: look at the Burning Crusadeand go to the link "expansion"... I think that need some fixes XD --Gollum 10:13, 21 December 2006 (EST)


 * As for RotH, it doesn't answer anything about what we discussed, but it does answer a lot of our other questions. --Ragestorm 10:16, 21 December 2006 (EST)

Stromgarde and Galen Trollbane
Any chance you could take a look at the Stromgarde and Prince Galen Trollbane pages? They've been changed back and forth between "Galen dies at the hands of Horde agents leaving Stromgarde's future uncertain" and "Zengu wants Galen killed for his sigil" a few times. I think my burgeoning dislike for one of the other contributors may be clouding my judgment, so I'd rather not touch the articles anymore. --Beep 08:19, 21 December 2006 (EST)


 * Sure- As you may have been able to discern above, though, I've got a lot on my plate, so I'll try my best to get to it at some point today.--Ragestorm 09:58, 21 December 2006 (EST)

I think the issue User:Mikaka has is how far should we accept events of quests in WoW that appear to be contradictory depending on which faction you play as, and with lore and established timelines in other sources.

There is no straight forward timeline in wow, as to when specific events take place, some events occur in the future(and have not yet happened in timelines established in other sources), although some have already occured in the timeframe the game has established (4 years after Warcraft III). Some events appear to happen out of order of when they should take place in refrence to other quests in the game.

For example Galen is still alive as of 5 years after Warcraft III (near the start of BC) according to Alliance Player's Guide, he was not killed by the horde yet. Although it is possible he didn't die from his "wounds". Interesting enough the events of the Sunken Temple and destruction of bones of Hakkar has happened, but rumors of Hakkar's resurrection in Zul'Gurub and the appearance of Zandali tribe to stop it, have just started to reach alliance.

Because there is arguement to when this event has taken place or will take place, I have marked it with the new WoW lore template, as well as added info to explain that Galen is yet alive at the time of nearing the Burning Crusade. There is more discussion on this issue in the talk page, Mikaka's arguement is justified imo.Baggins 22:43, 22 December 2006 (EST)


 * That's essentially what I've been saying. I've asked in several places, but no one seems to have given me a clear answer on WoWWiki's policy in regards to cases like this, where one or more faction has a quest to kill an NPC in WoW. Galen Trollbane is one example, but there are hundreds of other cases. Since these deaths have not been confirmed or denied outside of WoW, should we really be saying that they are dead? In my opinion, we should simply make a note on the character's page that states "In WoW, there exists a Horde/Alliance quest to brutally slaughter this NPC, usually with the help of a high level friend or two," and leave it at that. Many pages currently say something along the lines of "A brave band of non-descript Alliance/Horde heroes waded through hordes of freakishly identical minions to meet this NPC in battle and struck him down after a few minutes of clever aggro management." When some budding but naive WoWWiki editor comes across this character in game, after being told the character has passed on, they may become confused, angry, and ultimately self-implode due to the paradox. But I digress. Galen Trollbane's death has not been confirmed outside of WoW, and thus should not be stated as fact, as the events undertaken by players in WoW do not necasarily occur in the canonical storyline of Warcraft. --Mikaka 05:24, 23 December 2006 (EST)


 * Very good points. We can suggest the likely canon, but we can't be sure unless many subsequent important quests rely on a certain plot point (as an example, someone becoming a traitor during a quest line and subsequent parts relying on this change). -- Kirkburn  (talk) 08:04, 23 December 2006 (EST)


 * I'm inclined to agree. A note that says there is a Horde/Alliance quest to kill this NPC is required- in the case of Trollbane, speculation as to what will happen to his nation if the quest is completed could be added if the editor is so inclined. In terms of the official status in the infobox, however (if the character is significant enough to warrant one), we should leave it as "Alive."--Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 09:28, 23 December 2006 (EST)

WoW Template
Alright, I've made a template to fulfill your request. All it needs is a fancy icon and it will be complete. As I recall a fancy template exists for Burning Crusade already, so that can just be modified when the product is released.Baggins 17:57, 21 December 2006 (EST)

Welcome .... admin!
You deserve it :) Not sure what kind of introduction to give you, since I was somewhat thrust into it myself, but hey ... just view it as being able to deal with baad stuff if it arises, but it's not why you're here. You're the same contributer you were yesterday, but you can deal with assholes too ;) Um, yeah. -- Kirkburn  (talk) 18:26, 21 December 2006 (EST)

Gratz, man. As a fellow admin on a different wiki, I can say its a fun and rewarding position :). The feel of power of weekly, and monthly bans for trolls and vandilism is exciting ;). Although it can be annoying if they just change their IPs and keep on coming :p. But I'm sure you'll do well.Baggins 18:30, 21 December 2006 (EST)


 * Woo-hoo ! Congratulations ! At LAST the Head Bookkeeper's work is rewarded ! AlexanderYoshi is no match for you !-- K )  (talk) 19:24, 21 December 2006 (EST)


 * I'd offer a whole "dignity and honor" sort of speech, but I'd like to think that goes as read. I will continue in the same vein as I always have.
 * Woe be to any who dare attack lore...
 * That said, I'll do better than my beast not to be a lore tyrant. --Ragestorm 20:04, 21 December 2006 (EST)


 * "Lore". That's it? That's all you do? ;) C'mon, not very flowery is it? Heh -- Kirkburn  (talk) 21:06, 21 December 2006 (EST)


 * What did you have in mind? "Historical, psychological, and common sense as existing within sources outside of World of Warcraft?" "Non-technical issues specifically pertaining to Azerothian history?" "Rebukes any and all users who DARE refer to Outland in the plural or as non-proper noun?"
 * Actually, that last one has a certain ring to it.--Ragestorm 21:59, 21 December 2006 (EST)

Female Demonic Eredar
Well there is one on Bloodmyst Isle, she's apparently working with blood elves there, and is absorbing energy from a section of the crashed ship, she is no bigger than average Draenei however.Baggins 13:17, 22 December 2006 (EST)


 * Would you be so good as to provide a screenshot? Demonic Eredar have been known to change their size as it suits them, so she probably decided it was simplest to assume that size. Even if she's working for Illidan and not Kil'jaeden, she would hate the draenei.--Ragestorm 14:02, 22 December 2006 (EST)

Here you go.Baggins 14:34, 22 December 2006 (EST)


 * On her size, she does grow much larger when you fight her. At least, she did so when I ran through the quest.  --Maenos 15:00, 22 December 2006 (EST)

Sweet. Where do I find hte quest?Baggins 15:06, 22 December 2006 (EST)


 * I am not entirely sure where the questline starts (it has been a while since I ran my draenei through there), but the quest itself is called "Ending Their World." Definately one of the most memorable quests in my mind. -- Maenos 15:22, 22 December 2006 (EST)

Man'ari
Ok, we have a race/faction name for demonic Eredar.Baggins 15:06, 22 December 2006 (EST)


 * Not per se; man'ari is Eredun for "hideously wrong"- it's used by Draenei to describe anything made to go against it's natural order, be it demonic eredar or Orcs. Silithid, Satyr, and naga would also be "man'ari". Definetly, demonic eredar fall under that aegis, and it's true that some of Kil'jaeden's underlings refer to themselves as such (or not- it appears to be an inconsistency within Golden's narrative)--Ragestorm 16:43, 22 December 2006 (EST)

I only have the quote from the BC;

"Argus...It is where we split from the man'ari: The twisted demonic reflections of ourselves that were "gifted" by Sargeras. Or as they call themselves, eredar". Eredar... this word once held meaning.  Disgusting."Baggins 16:57, 22 December 2006 (EST)


 * Well, this gives us an idea of what "Ered" might mean in Draenei. Golden explains man'ari in RotH:
 * ''His body was now gargantuan, but twisted and distorted. Smooth blue skin was now black and brown and gnarled, like some once-noble tree disfigured by disease. Light radiated from him, true, but not the pure light of powerful, positive energy, but a sickly green. Frantically, he turned to behold his friends, his fellow leaders of the eredar. They, too, had been transformed. They, too, retained nothing of what tey had been but were now...
 * Man'ari
 * The eredar word for something horrifically wrong, something twisted and unnatural and defiled slammed into his mind withthe force of a shining sword.
 * Velen's vision of what he would become- man'ari. It doesn't prevent us from using it as a label, we should just note that it can apply to beings besides demonic eredar.-_Ragestorm 17:06, 22 December 2006 (EST)

Could it be that man'ari means something akin to "gifted" from a negative viewpoint?Baggins 17:15, 22 December 2006 (EST)


 * Hmmm... that would work. It slightly contradicts Golden's description, but it's not entirely in conflict.--Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 17:17, 22 December 2006 (EST)


 * So which words are also part of the "Draenei (language)" so we can list them there as well?Baggins 17:30, 22 December 2006 (EST)

Man'ari, obviously... Shattrath, Sha'tar... probably all the eredun words we currently know.--Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 17:35, 22 December 2006 (EST)

Alright, I added them to current Draenei (language article), as well as noting that they now view the term "eredar" as "digusting".Baggins 17:49, 22 December 2006 (EST)

Half-elf editing
I don't know who added this, but not only is it wrong, mired with speculation, its also not neutral POV; - EasyAble shall add to just how wrong these contradictions are.


 * Contridictions
 * Due to the term "half-elf" comes from lore books (not all are trustworthy) some things need to be clarified. High-elves (rangers) and half-elves cannot become druids or even practice druidism. They lack the Touch of Nature, a gift given only to those who hold affinity for druidism. As they were arcane wielders, high-elves never embraced the druidic teachings of Cenarius.

--- This is not true. Lady Sylvanas Windrunner was a Ranger Lord of Quel'thalas and was a practicicioner of Druidic magics. When she become the Banshee Queen, she had to give up her druidic powers in favor of necromatic ones becoming a Dark Ranger. Half-Elves "may" become druids or rangers as they can posses the affinity from their high elven parents, who shunned, but did not abandon the practice of druidic magic. High Elven rangers are some of the most notable units in any warcraft setting. Did you even play Warcraft 2? Upgraded Archers were rangers. It fightens me to think that "contributors" of this site can be so terribly wrong. - EzekielAble


 * Yes we know it was wrong, that's why we removed, it :).Baggins 02:17, 19 January 2007 (EST)


 * The idea of "planetary cross-breeding" is disturbing since a cat cannot have kittens/puppies with a dog. Biologically, a cross-breed is impossible due to the difference between races.

What the hell? Is a human that far off physiologically from an Elf? A Golden Retrievar can still mate and have puppies with a labrador. Don't try to do some petty thing by trying to be "realistic". Hey buddy, did you notice the walking dead? Did you notice the girl who just threw a fireball? How about the giant dark portal with demons steaming through it?

To me it's just like an oriental person mating with a anglo-saxon. What comes out? A mix. - Easyable


 * Again yes, it was wrong that's why we removed it ;).Baggins 02:19, 19 January 2007 (EST)

To clarify
The book just calls Antonidas "King"(infact it just calls all the human leaders who showed up as "kings", and it referred to the non-humans as "representives".), defacto is really my interpretation. Is that fair interpretion?Baggins 22:40, 23 December 2006 (EST)


 * Yes, of course, I think it works perfectly. We just don't need every variation of his position listed in the infobox and the description of the Alliance meeting. --Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 22:43, 23 December 2006 (EST)

I think it does mean he's most likely the one at the meeting though, that's the implication given in APG, with it stating he was the king, true leader, and public face. Do we really need to list the others?Baggins 22:45, 23 December 2006 (EST)


 * Well, perhaps not name anyone else, but mention that Dalaran might have had an ambassador, not a ruler, representing.--Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 22:47, 23 December 2006 (EST)

Well, I'm not the one has specifically stated that Dalaran's "Leader" and "King" was there. That's Blizzard's wording, :P... Even as far back as the Warcraft II manual. Why should we try to over analyze Blizzard's terminology?Baggins 22:49, 23 December 2006 (EST)


 * I just meant we don't have to list them in places where quicker explanations are all that's needed.--Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 22:53, 23 December 2006 (EST)


 * Ok, so to make it less wordy why not rearrange the sentence somewhat, to something like;


 * "The mage with his back turned is obviously the leader of Dalaran, which implies Antonidas himself."Baggins 23:00, 23 December 2006 (EST)


 * Using leader, keeps it as close to Blizzard's original wording as possible, near direct paraphrase, and keeps it close to the intent from later sources.Baggins 23:00, 23 December 2006 (EST)

How about "the mage with his back turned is obviously the Dalaran representative, likely Antonidas himself." The implication is that he is the leader, like the other humans, and there's a link to his bio just in case.--Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 23:04, 23 December 2006 (EST)


 * Yes, that works, I think is probably the best. I notice we already state that the human representives are the leaders of the human nations, in the first line of that section, and in the image text(along with all sources). I can see where you are coming from. So there is no reason for us to be redundant with the issue.

P.S. Forgive me if i'm stressing you out, before Christmas. I'm not trying to really, :). Have a happy holiday.Baggins 23:07, 23 December 2006 (EST)


 * Stressed it not being bugged by you about Antonidas. I've been stressed at Christmas. This ain't stressed at Christmas. If Blarg the Gnome had returned, then I would have been stressed, as the draenei are competeing with the Night elves for my favorite race. Guess he read RotH, and won't be having a merry Warcraft Christmas. ;-P--Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 23:16, 23 December 2006 (EST)


 * Lol. Well never the less I had to apologize just in case, :).Baggins 23:19, 23 December 2006 (EST)

Fair enough. I'm calling it a night for now- long day. If there are any issues in the meantime, warn them of the Head Bookkeeper's wrath. --23:23, 23 December 2006 (EST)