Talk:Varimathras

Quest Timeline Considerations

 * 1) Hmm, one of the most recent additions has got me thinking.  It mentions that Varimathras has in his possession the books from RFC after an agent of the Horde delivered them to him.  This prompts me to ask the question whether any big events really "happen" in WoW.  There are world events, of course, but besides that the player doesn't have an impact on the world of the game since after all everything respawns for the next player.  Therefore the books will always be dropped in RFC, Naralex will always be asleep in WC, Van Cleef will always be alive waiting for somebody to make introduce him to the business end of a sword, etc.
 * 2) IOW, my question is should we who contribute to these entries write from the perspective of somebody looking back from the future and assume all the quests got completed?  Or should we write as though nobody's completed any of them?  The Mug'thol entry, for example, doesn't list him as dead.  It merely states that he found the Crown of Will and is now a free ogre again.--Illidan Rocks 08:16, 1 Feb 2006 (EST)
 * 3) G C: What I'm thinking of doing right now is differntiating between the physical status and background of a quest NPC (for instance, writing their background and stating that they can be found in the Scarlet Monastery doing that and that, and waiting to be killed) and the Lore status (which states that the NPC has been killed by on the orders of such and such). The way I understand it, should Blizzard ever want to develop on any of these ideas (be it in a WoW expansion or in a separate game), it will naturally assume that all the quests affecting the game world are completed.
 * 4) I think that a measure of dichotomy is inevitable if you're dealing with a quest-driven storyline in a MMORPG. However, I feel it is safe to assume that the game world as we know it is shaped by the mere existence of these quests, since existence implies completion. To use the Van Cleef example, it is probably reasonable to assume that the Defias quest to build a weapon of mass destruction has been foiled, since otherwise we'd be looking at a world event involving a wheeled battleship literally rolling over Stormwind!
 * 5) Makes sense to me. I'd kinda like to see that world event, actually. :p --Illidan Rocks 08:46, 1 Feb 2006 (EST)
 * 6) that's not wheels. If you played warcraft 2, they were juggernauts and those are like the (cant remember name) wheels that spin to make power, but instead row the boat. how the defias got ahold of it, no idea, maybe the horde on thier side, plans, captured or reconstructed. TirisfalMage 00:58, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Varimathras + Balnazzar
I can't remember exactly where I heard this for the first time, but by now I've heard this idea thrown around numerous times: when demons die, they don't actually cease to exist, but simply transport back into the Twisting Nether. Unless, of course, someone goes through the trouble of ensuring the demon dies, such as using an artifact or some great spells or what have you.

That has been presented in the past as the explanation for why Varimathras would say he can't kill another Nathrezim, because he knows even if he does, Balnazzar will simply go back and wait to be re-summoned into the world.

--Wasted 06:13, 2 July 2006 (EDT)


 * Yah, I thought that when a Demon Dies, he just falls asleep and bleeds for a couple of days, then when he is assured he's safe, he comes back from the Dead, sort of like that one snake that I forgot its name. Thats why I also think that Tichondreus is alive. --Quinn' Tonster


 * He doesn't actually say, "I can't kill this guy." He says, "But, Lady, it is forbidden for one of the Nathrezim to kill another." So, it's most likely possible. Whether he actually did it or not is still up in the air.


 * On Tichondrious, he's definitely dead. To my knowledge, there's never been a case of a demon being resurrected in Warcraft. Sargeras doesn't quite count, because he's not a demon, and I wouldn't count Warcraft III hero resurrection since that's a game element and never really used in the plot. Also, Tichondrious was killed using the Skull of Gul'dan, a very powerful demonic artifact, so he didn't just trip and break his neck in a freak accident. Illidan decimated him. 13:00, 14 November 2006 (EST)


 * But to be add to the list is that Mal´Ganis was killed by Frostmourne in WC3 and still he came back as Grand Admiral Baeran Westwind and what i know about Frostmourne is that it´s a really powerful artifact weapon that might be powerful enough to stand next to several other allmighty weapons of diffrent gods and heroes. (User:wowsjostedt)

Varimathras Quotes
Not quite sure who is in charge of the upkeep of this Wiki, so I loathe to step on any toes by adding anything to the main pages without permission. But perhaps those in charge could make use of the following Quotes, spoken by Varimathras in World of Warcraft(if you go to the Royal Quarter and click on him):

"I'm Always On The Winning Side." <---exact quote. "None Can Stand Before The Might Of A DreadLord."<---not an exact quote but it is very, very close, i'll come back with the exact verbiage after my game session tonight.

The actual quote is "You dare challenge the might of a dreadlord?!" --Angellic 11:27, 14 November 2006 (EST)


 * He may say that in W3, but I'm pretty sure in WoW it's "You think you can match the might of a dreadlord?" 12:29, 14 November 2006 (EST)

Another 'click' qoute of his in WoW is "How will this benefit me?" --Wormsborough 10:10, 29 December 2006 (EST)

He also says "Don't waste my time." Hordesupporter 19:51, 16 February 2007 (EST)

If you click long enough he says "Wake up, time to die!" - The_Lore_Nerd

I Don't Like It
I don't like that thing that suggests that Varimathras has betrayed the Forsaken simply because it would have every racial capital having a major traitor, I should point out that the Ironforge traitor, is not a traitor perse, she was put under a spell, so the theroy of all capitals haveing a major traitor/defector falls short. Hordesupporter 14:07, 30 January 2007 (EST)


 * Also, Fandral isn't a traitor to his people by any means, just at odds with Tyrande- unlike some of the others, he's not going to open the gates of the city to their enemies. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 09:48, 17 February 2007 (EST)

Note that, although Varimathras is a demon, and therefore is very untrustworthy, if he in fact betrayed the Forsaken who could he ally himself with? He has commited treason against the Burning Legion, he would never be accepted into the alliance, the only reason he is allowed to be in the horde is due to his forsaken alligences, no way in hell would he be in the Scourge, and he likly wouldn't be accepted into any of the other factions on Azeroth (or outland for that matter). I'm kinda n00bish dealing with lore but I believe my statement was accurate. Hordesupporter 18:06, 19 February 2007 (EST)


 * Well, he could go to his brother with the Scarlet Crusade, I suppose, and the Shadow Council would take him if the betrayal was destructive enough. But everything you've said is true. Based on this, and the fact that Staghelm is not a traitor (well, he is, but only to Malfurion's ideals, an not to his race), I'm removing the statement. Addendum: Grimtotem is also not truely a traitor. Though she dislikes Cairne, she is not likely to betray Thunder Bluff to the Tauren's enemies. -- Ragestorm  (talk &middot; contr) 19:01, 19 February 2007 (EST)

You know... I put that in my comment but it just occured to me... Varimathras is only allowed in the Horde due to his Forsaken alligences right? Hordesupporter 13:35, 21 February 2007 (EST)


 * Of course. Even Sylvanas wouldn't have let him in if he didn't work for her. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 14:02, 21 February 2007 (EST)

Yeah, Sylvanas prob wasn't too sure if she should allow a demon into her army, of course Sylvanas and Varimathras are my two favorite warcraft characters, so it's nice to see them on the same side. Hordesupporter 20:54, 21 February 2007 (EST)


 * No, Sylvanas was probably pleased by his defection (because of the powers at his command), but just because she loves employing them doesn't mean she actually likes them. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 21:15, 21 February 2007 (EST)

Ive comed up with this idea. Could hes master be Sargeras? All those mobs you kill have Legion in their names. It refers to Burning Legion right? And Sargeras is supreme leader of the Burning Legion. Bosteir (talk) 13:52, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Given that WoW has some sense of time now (the very fact you can kill Varimathras and he's supposedly gone for good) would probably imply that his was something lead into by recent events. That in mind I'd be more likely to believe his master to be simply Kil'jaeden, and that assuming Varimathras was in fact ever considered an enemy of the Legion in the first place, this status has been revoked in lieu of Kil'jaeden's embarrassing defeat at the Sunwell previously. This assumes that in WoW's sense of time Sunwell happens before Varimathras' treachery. In any case to me it smells distinctly of "retaliation" or "last ditch effort" due to its timing, like how some movie franchises devote the opening 10 minutes or so to reminding us of the villain of the last film before moving on to the film's main plot. This is unfortunately mostly speculation, and we will have to wait for definitive proof of Varimathras' master. For now however it seems pretty certain that his master is a leader within the Burning Legion. Given that Sargeras isn't the current leader of the Legion due to being "dead", we could assume the most likely candidates are either Kil'jaeden or Mephistroph (who would presumably have always been Varimathras' direct superior as a dreadlord). It's not even impossible that Mal'ganis is in fact his master given his return. We simply lack the facts to say for certain. Damned Blizzard for being ambiguous! Heljak (talk) 18:59, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Forsaken Loyalites
This page mentions there are some Forsaken who rever Sylvanas, and some to are loyal to Varimathras, this doesn't make any sense in my opinion, any Forsaken quest that mentions thw two makes it clear that their loyalty is to Sylvanas, granted, that may just be because the Forsaken player character is implied to be loyal to Sylvanas alone. Hordesupporter 13:48, 23 March 2007 (EDT)

Varimathras's Plan?
I think that Varimathras gained a plan when he was pinned up, and that somehow, Balnazzar and Dethorac new. Varimathras is a demon, who are only loyal to the Legion or to a Warlock, and even Doomguards don't stay to loyal for long. Varimathras is most likely still serving the Legion. Here is why I believe it:

--Balnazzar, Alive--

Varimathras did attack his brother, but he wasn't dead. Scince we do not really know the code of the Dreadlords or Nathrazim, we do not know if it is just code that Dreadlords attacked by other Dreadlords come back. But, there is another factor... He could not have actually been killed. If Varimathras is still loyal to the Legion, then it was all an act that Sylvanas fell for.

--Balnazzar picking the Scarlet Crusade--

Balnazzar picked to hide ast the leader of the Scarlet Crusade. Now, most people think this is to take revenge on the Forsaken... or my possibility, it is for sacrificing. When the Legion comes back, and if Varimathras is loyal to the legion, it'll most likely be that Varimathras will get help from the Legion to reconquer the freed undead. Then, the Scarlet Crusade will be attacked and gained as new recruits.

--Varimathras's loyalists--

Like this one says, some Undead will actually loyally fallow the Legion under Varimathras.

--Apocitharies, Legionists themselves?--

The Apocitharies are a group of Forsaken created by Sylvanas to cause the new plague. But, are they still loyal? I read somewhere that the Apocitharies don't allow the others. But why? Well, my theory is that they are secretly legionists that are sending messages to the Legion to let them know when they can come...

--The New Plague--

The New Plague could be the opportunity for Varimathras and his fallowers to strike.

WC3 info
How about removing the Warcraft3 info at the bottom?


 * Why? El le th wen 13:53, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Size
would it be relevant to add that he used to be just a bit taller than players, but after a patch (can't remember which) we were up to his knee? (forsaken) i'm crazy, arent i? TirisfalMage 01:04, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Your not crazy, he did get a resize in a more recent patch. Seems better this way (Valnar 16:05, 31 January 2008 (UTC))

Varimathras betrays the Horde?
I think many of you have ran over this one: http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?quest=13266 No clue if this is a hoax or not.. --RocketBrother (talk) 10:35, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Looks real to me Warchiefthrall (talk) 11:47, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, it was taken off Saurfang the Younger's page, so I just took it off Varimathras' page. I STILL wanna know what happens to the Forsaken though >_<. Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart (talk) 12:24, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * well i hope someone finally do something about those damn forsaken who are clearly as evil as the scourge and a taint for the horde. But just to make it clear if someone is confused, Thrall is not dying! Azahel (talk) 15:31, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Varimathras has been implied to be working against the Horde from within since HPG. -_ Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 19:15, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Haven't people had suspicions before then? I could have sworn I remembered something like that...  --Super Bhaal (talk) 21:08, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Suspicions have been around since before then, but I think HPG was the first time something concrete was implied could be wrong. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 23:29, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Still, it's been a long time coming. (SPOILERS AHEAD) And incidentally in the Ashbringer comic series, the first issue ends with the reveal of Varimathras being in contact with Balnazzar, so more confirmation of his betrayal. Warchiefthrall (talk) 23:52, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, a big demon for the horde was a little... unlikely. Anyway, those rumours were confirmed by many of us when we saw Balnazaar alive. Azahel (talk) 00:28, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

maybe it was a lie from varimathras about a nathrezim killing another, something which came up, from the very beginning he lied to the elf but his brother nor he could do anything to kill her, so decided to fool her by coming some story up about code between the dreadlords, it must be something like that a lie nothing more. User:Manuelwow

Did the quest the other day on my shaman. You aid Sylvanas and Thrall in retaking Undercity and at the end you 'kill' (wonder who he will take over -.-) Varimathras. Afterwords Varian comes and declares war on the Horde before being teleported out by Jaina. Must admit it was a very epic questline like many in WotLK. Leviathon (talk) 04:11, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

whoa whoa whoa. Your telling me the forsaken lose their damn city for a quest line???? was it a instanced version cause seriously i can see many problems with that..--Whitedragon254 (talk) 06:15, 21 September 2008 (UTC)


 * It's phased. Players not on the quest will see the city as they always do. Like the Blade's Edge Mountain quest with the mana cells. There might be an epic battle between dozens of end level players, Thrall, and Sylvanas against Varimathras and his demoic horde happening on the very spot you are standing, but your level 44 checking his mail or turning in that quest won't even know about it. 06:30, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Distant Voice
In there is a distant voice that speaks to Varimathras. Any hint on who it is? Surely not Balnazzar because Varimathras addresses to the voice as Master and not brother. The remaings are Mephistroth, Kil'jaeden or the big bad guy himself at least. Does anybody know something? --N&#39;Nanz (talk) 09:34, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * No. It's a mystery. 09:38, 13 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Anywhere we can refer to for speculations? i am aware of the talk page's purpouse so... Amirw (talk) 09:39, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * No, speculation about this "Distant Voice" is pointless as there are no facts right now about who it might be. 09:51, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's why i was wondering if there is any forums in which it's allowed to speculate inside the wiki domain. I know talk pages arent ment to be the subject of speculation fests so i'm looking for a forum/postboard/whatever, assuming something like that exists in the wiki. Amirw (talk) 21:15, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Wowhead, official forums, etc...

I'm thinking its Mal'Ganis. And if you just thought "Mal' Ganis is dead nub", you have some more questing to do

i would think that it would be KIl'jaeden because he seems so eager to get to Azeroth, but since we all know kil'jaeden then it might would have sayed Kil'jaeden instead of a distant voice. it could be Sargeras himself but thats just me talking. I dont think that it would be Mephistroth talking to him

For a split second I though that it may have been Arthas, but after reading that he summoned Legion portals I decided that it was Kil'jaeden. --Morec of Gilneas (talk) 19:08, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

The 3.2 ptr patch seems to have recorded a line of the voice... the filename is...Sargeras!--Gurluas (talk) 13:25, 1 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Future will let us know the true :)
 * 13:31, 1 July 2009 (UTC)


 * He's Sargeras or Mephi,or atleast i think so.

Varimathras: Tactics
I'm removing the part where it says that Varimathras is a faction leader. He is NOT a faction leader. User:Extremedeath

Varimathras During Alliance Attack
As of about three weeks ago (when I participated in a run for my black war bear), Varimathras does not react at all when you fight Sylvanas. I did the run at 73 BEFORE I did the chain leading up to Battle for the Undercity - and while we were beating up on Sylvanas, he did not move an inch. A glitch, or indicative of his true loyalties? --Joshmaul (talk) 12:43, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * As I recall, this has always been the case. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 23:31, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * According to the tactics section of this page, he has, at least at some time, engaged players in combat. [[Image:INV Misc Orb 04.png|20px]] Xavius, the Satyr Lord  17:49, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
 * This was prior to the expansion, since 3.0 Varimathras does not engage alliance players, regardless of if they completed battle for the undercity.--Saphiredragon89 (talk) 21:18, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not an Alliance point of veiw,but player ones.The Horde Players that have completed the Battle for the Undercity does not see him anymore(and i still needed to do "Into The Scarlet Monastery" =/).If an Horde player in defense will see that Alliance players dies killed by an invisible creature.../gasp.Anyway i think the Alliance players that does not have completed the Batle for the Undercity can challange Varimathras.(Anyway,now UC is the easier capital to be downed,as Sylvanas can be easy faced alone,while previous in her tactics was Varimathras a formidable opponent along with the right lvl guard,that are 65 now instead of 75).The tactics of Varimathras were previous of patch 3.0 (just look at his Wow-typicall classic HP).Should we write it?

Replacement
As of patch 3.2.2., lots of players trying to get achievements involving low level quests given or completed by Varimathras have asked Blizzard about a solution for the missing questgiver. Kisirani, world designer, answered using a "letter" written by someone supposed to be taking care of Varimathras bussinesses in patch 3.3, signed as B.. Now I'm not trying to start a debate about what is that B supposed to mean, but maybe something could be written about it in the main article. --Morgaur (talk) 15:10, September 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * What a neat thread. That answers a lot of questions.  Thank you.  Is this worth adding to the page (yet)?  --Super Bhaal (talk) 17:30, September 24, 2009 (UTC)

I too was thinking this, the question is how to put it in his article, I'd imagine under the WOTLK section. The wording would have to be careful though to not confuse anyone, I'll leave this to someone else.--Saphiredragon89 (talk) 19:20, September 24, 2009 (UTC)


 * I figure it would be better to add it under the "speculation" section, something like: it's now (as of patch 3.2.2) been confirmed that someone whose name starts with a "B" is going to take the place of Varimathras in the Undercity in the upcoming patch 3.3; then add the original quote from Kisirani, and maybe some of the speculated meanings of that "B". --Morgaur (talk) 19:31, September 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * Broxigar has come back from a most horrible death in the Twisting Nether to fester in the Undercity next to a dead elf to accept quests from Horde players who can't stop hitting the spacebar, or maybe...well, I don't want to say "Balnazzar" accepts the quests because that'd just make me look like one of those more annoying speculative types who like to turn discussions about apples into discussions about oranges. --Super Bhaal (talk) 21:23, September 24, 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually I'm one of the guys that think the B stands for Blightcaller. Why? He is already a trusted advisor for Sylvanas, and also an undead hunter, so it would serve 2 purposes: replacing Varimathras AND helping introduce this new class - race combo in particular. It needs to be confirmed if Nathanos is dead or not from a lore perspective, althoug being an undead it wouldn't be very difficult to justify his return. P.S.: can you believe some people actually suggested Bolvar as the meaning of B? --Morgaur (talk) 18:13, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

Move to Burning Legion
Shouldn't Varimathras be moved from the Horde section of the Past and present major Warcraft Universe characters box and placed in the Burning Legion section of the box? --Sairez (talk)

Help
I was trying to remove the Horde Symbol that's next to his image in the npcbox and I wasn't able to, so can someone who can please remove it... --Sairez (talk)