Talk:Titan

First?
If the troggs were one of the two evolutions of Earthen, Dwarves being the other, then they couldn't have been one of the five original races. That should be fixed, but then I don't know where the information came from so I can't really fix it without taking out the whole bit.
 * The Troggs aren't an evolution of the Earthen. The Titans, in fact, created the Troggs first to be their helpers, but the Troggs came out to be vicious brutes.  And so the Titans imprisoned the Troggs, and then created the Earthen.  This is all told by the Discs of Norgannon in Uldaman.  --Adonzo 20:14, 11 May 2006 (EDT)
 * Actually, scratch that, I was mistaken. Yes, the Troggs were an undesirable abberation of the Earthen.  Another thing I didn't notice was that while the racial statues were well designed, the Trogg statue was crudely carved out of a rock formation.  In my opinion, the aberration happened early enough that the Troggs could be considered an original race of Azeroth, if not necessarily a creation of the Titans.  --Adonzo 20:24, 11 May 2006 (EDT)
 * I agree they came early, but only as early as the Dwarves, which are not listed as one of the five 'original' races. So, in my opinion, it would make more sense to say that the Earthen were one of the originals and the troggs and dwarves equal derivations thereof. Leave it to me to be a stickler. :) Also, while I'm on the subject, where exactly does it say that the Trolls were created by the titans and evolved into NightElves? Not to say I disagree, I'm just curious where the actual info comes from. --Iavas 23:01, 11 May 2006 (EST)
 * cough* Yeah, so I just noticed that this whole discussion, although fascinating, is quite pointless. The article doesn't list the Troggs or the Dwarves as one of the five originals. Unless somebody edited it, then I must admit that I was mistaken and apologize. --Iavas 23:07, 11 May 2006 (EST)
 * Yeah, I edited out the Troggs as an "original" race. The five races there now (Earthen, Trolls, Giants, and Tauren) are the only races native to Azeroth that do not seem to be directly descended from another race.  As for Night Elves being descended from Trolls, I will point you here.  --Adonzo 15:55, 12 May 2006 (EDT)
 * And even if they're not descended from trolls, they're descended from something non-kaldori (a nocturnal race that found the Well of Eternity). Saimdusan 22:21, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Azotha perhaps? :) -- Ravenore, the Necroshadowmancer 20:05, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

The "original race" issue is tricky at best. There is no way to "number" it ("I.E" concept of "five original races"). There is implication that furbolgs and murlocs were races that may have predated the coming of the titans as well. If so that would toss any Titan created races from being valid for the "original" race list. For the record Furbolg were living in Northrend at the time of the coming of the Titans and direct encounters were rare, if any (The furbolgs just have legends of the seeing the coming of Titans to their world, but not any references to any specific encounters). Murlocs on the other hand lived under the seas at the time, and never came to the surface to encounter the Titans as far as we know.

As for Trogg history, they were created at different times at different facilities. The same or similar accident occured at various points in history at different titan facilities and slightly different ways (for example at Uldum, and Bael Modan facilities). So its very hard to put a specific date as to when troggs appeared, or in specific way they appeared.Baggins 22:34, 20 July 2007 (UTC)Baggins 22:31, 20 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I thought before the titans came the world was primordial chaos ruled by the old gods. Must not have been pleasant for them.-- 22:42, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * That's why the kodos of that time were so huge, also for the huge animal survivors who were labbeled as "demigods" by the lesser races. You need power and size to survive that chaos mon *roll eyes* ---- Ravenore, the Necroshadowmancer 20:09, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

'Racelink'
Ragestorm, what do you mean by 'racelink is only for playable races'? --Vorbis 17:25, 18 Dec 2006 (GMT)


 * The banner across the top (racelink template) is only to be used on the pages for the ten playable races (Draenei, dwarves, gnomes, kaldorei, humans, sindorei, Forsaken, Orcs, tauren, and trolls) listed in the template, and perhaps the Horde and Alliance pages. Titans are not listed and not playable.--Ragestorm 13:56, 18 December 2006 (EST)

Ah right... whoops. Think I may have just missed that. -_-   --Vorbis 22:59, 18 Dec 2006 (GMT)


 * Playable Titans....now that would be something to experience. --Nurizeko

Other Beings
Besides Moonhounds (or w/e they're called), do we know of the Titans having any mounts, other pets, and/or just any other species of life from their homeworld, or used by them?

Combat styles???
Do we really care about combat styles for the individual Titans? I know WoWWiki isn't Wikipedia, but come on, they seem out of place and just plain... unencyclopedic. I can't help but think they don't belong in the article. I mean, it's all just fluff written by the RPG designers, not actual Warcraft lore. Hekirou 18:18, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Anything written by offical Blizzard RPG designers is official lore. If someone on WoWwiki just went and manufactured these "fighting styles" for them, then they don't belong in the article at all. ~Don't say Retnoob, say Peregrine 20:20, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Being official lore doesn't make it belong. He's right, whether its official lore or not, it is very messy and irrelevant to the entry. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by.

Race Picture?
Could we get some verification that the picture used the represent the race is an offical blizzard representation, or at the very least recognized fan art? ~My rage bar is blue and I start the fight pissed - Peregrine 23:39, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

What are the Titans?
I've made up my mind about the Titans. I looked through any information about them, including any site that is currently available on Azeroth that is somehow related to them. I get the impression that the Titans didn't actually "leave" Azeroth. It looks more as if somebody puts down anything he has in his hands and leaves the planet in a hurry.

What about the gate at Uldum for example. Clearly the gate was built to keep something "inside". I mean....the Titans had the ability to imprison the Elemental Lords to another dimension. And then they build a wooden gate in front of Uldum? All im asking is if somebody who reads this also has the impression that the Titans are not what the legends make us think about them. Metamagic 03:31, 08 February 2008 (CET)


 * What are you getting at here? Who said they were made to keep something inside? -- 02:47, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The reason is quite simple. There are big iron brackets on the outside of the gate. (One is actually missing) They are sufficient to hold a big log to hold the gate shut. Now the point is: With these brackets to hold a log on the outside of the gate...it is clearly made to hold something inside... Metamagic 04:09, 08 February 2008 (CET)

He's right about one thing, those gates are meant to keep something in, not out. If you look on the uldum page there's a lot of information relating to it. Now, there's no reason to think that it was the titans that put that gate up, could be the giants out side of it, or one of the ancient races of azeroth that we may or may not know about. I really don't know what this guy's getting at, he needs to stop beating around the bush and come out and say it, in my opinion.Tweak the Whacked 03:26, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

All I'm trying to say is that some things that the legends say about the titans don't really fit to what "ancient items" can be found around Azeroth which were supposedly made by the Titans. Maybe Tweak is right....maybe there are more ancient races we have not seen anything about yet. Let me give you more examples exept the gate I mentioned. When I went to Uldaman and I opened the chamber holding the Disks for the first time....I asked myself....They keep gold here? A race of beings of unimmaginable power keep gold in their vault? A being of such power should be beyond that. Sargeras for example surely was. And what about the Troggs? In the Wowwiki article about the Titans they are described as reclusive. Watching that they don't interfere with natural evolution. Creating a race of beings and just leaving that race untended is a quite severe interference with natural evolution, isn't it. Somebody who doesn't want to interfere with the "natural way things are" shouldn't be doing things like that at all. They must have known that the Troggs (and the Dwarves for that matter) would come out of their "captivity" one day. And the Disks of Norgannon? Kept in a vault that is easier to access than Scholomance.... It almost seems that they were rather meant to be found. The architecture of Uldaman shows many things about whoever built it. Structure, symetry, order. That doesn't fit a race of powerful beings which keeps one of its failed experiments untended. And what about Un Goro Crater? Somehow the Titans managed to halt the natural way of evolution. Hence all the dinosaurs in the crater. How does that fit into that? And the elemental lords like Ragnaros? According to legend they were banished to another dimension by the Titans. Somebody who is able to achieve that shouldn't be building gates to keep something from being robbed. Imho I think there are a few ways to explain that: Either the Titans and the builders of Uldaman etc. are not the same race or the mysterious Titans were much more "down to earth beings" that the legends make us think. Secondly all these various facts show that this progenitor race may be quite intelligent, but certainly not the very wise. However there is also the simple explanation that the designers of the game just didn't think about such details. Whatever...what do you think? Metamagic 07:14, 08 February 2008 (CET)

Well I think a few things. Firstly, the the ease/difficulty of reaching the disk cannot be compared to say scholomance, as lore power and game mechanics don't always mesh well, just because they're a certain ingame level does not mean that is their actual power.

Secondly, not interfering with natural evolution could be part of the myth to explain why they left, they might just not care about us. Then again, as they are presumably the creators of most if not all intellegent life(the furbolg myth doesn't hold a lot of water as far as i'm concerned), natural evolution could simply refer to how the races they create develop. As far as they're concerned, the troggs, dwarves, and earthen are natural creatures of the world, and since they were formed from the very stone of azeroth itself, they are in a way. Its possible that the other creatures are also creations, or the decendants of titan creations.

Its also worth noting that the dwarves and troggs weren't imprisioned in Ulda by the titans, the original troggs were destroyed for their savage nature, and the earthen who chose to seal themselves away beneath the earth destabalized, some into troggs and some into dwarves.

Its also possible that the titans did want those disc found, as if they didn't, they wouldn't have left a construct there to translate for those who found them. Still, its a vault, and you take security measures in a vault. The presence of coins could have been a design oversight by the devs, or it could mean that dwarves, who value things made from the ore of the earth, inherited this trait from the earthen.

Un'goro could simply be an annomally caused by the unique geography of the region. As there is a near identical crater in northrend who's name escapes me right now, it could be as simple as the act of "landing" on azeroth by the titans had an unforseeable side effect that resulted in these crators. The dinosaurs remaining their might not be because of halted evolution, they may simply have been unsuited to survive in other enviroments. In places like Un'goro, they could thrive without predators such as humans and trolls hunting them.

Binding the elemental lords and old gods wasn't done with the wave of a hand that most people think it was, it was a war that waged on for thousands of years. And since their prime enemies had been banished, it stands to reason that they didn't see the need to expend the energy to bind their structures to another realm, especially since they may have wanted their creations to one day gain entry. Earthen were definately able to open and close the gates of titan structures when they chose, as they sealed them selves in to escape the legion.

And I maintain that the gates on Uldum are not of titan construct, and are in all likely hood only a few hundred years old, as even wood that thick would rot away after much longer. The War of the Ancients trilogy confirms that there are many unknown races that have gone extinct in ages past, predating even the trolls and elves, as a dragon mentions that the night elves wouldn't be the first race to destroy themselves with the power of the well of eternity. The rpg also list several races not shown in other sources of lore.

The titans may not be all knowing and all powerful, but several things are unforseeable, and or have other explainations. The titans being a major creator race isn't legend, infact most people on azeroth have never heard of them, its what actually happened according to blizzard. So there are a few inconsistancies, doesn't mean the whole myth is a lie.Tweak the Whacked 22:09, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm....interesting. Maybe you're right. However your argumentation holds some inconsistencies.

Iwasn't actually refering to game mechanics when I said that Scholo is harder to access. In other words I don't think about the levels of beings inside, because I understand that lore power and game mechanics don't mesh well. What I mean is that you have to forge a key to get to Scholo. In Ulda basically every group of three people is able to open that vault. Theres no key at all! Shouldn't somebody who is able to put others away to other dimensions have better ways to achieve that? I mean ok there are a lot of guardians in there thats for sure....however that doesn't fit to a vault door that doesn't really have a secure lock. I don't know how to say it...it just doesn't ... feel right...it feels more...so...set up.

And about the Non-Interference? What you say means basically that it is ok to meddle in affairs of the "natural way" as long as you don't use means to achieve that which are "not of this world". This also feels...not logically....it feels more like a bad ecuse for what you do. I mean a geneticist wouldn't argue like that. That he justifies what he does beacause he is able to do it.

About the discs...I still claim that they were rather meant to be found. Much the same way as the dwarves found that Great Anvil they have in Ironforge.

And Un Goro? If a race of beings manages to survive by whatever means ( benevolent environment, lack of predators etc.) that doesn't mean they don't evolve. I mean look outside....you see birds, lizards, snakes, frogs. They are basically the "dinosaurs" of our time. These are the animals the remaining dinosaurs evolved into. Just managing to survive doesn't halt evolution. Now the question remains if this was done on purpose or not. Well...at least the obelisks around the perimeter of the crater were clearly put there on purpose not coincidentially. And they still work. The space between them has remained a lush forrest while the area around them is dry, desert, a barren waste. Coincidence? I don't think so...

About the gold in Ulda. Well the easiest explanation is that the devs simply oversaw that detail. Ok the Earthen locked themselves in there. However...if you put yourself away in a vault to endure some kind of cataclysm outside. Would you take money with you inside that bunker? Surely not...

And about mythology and truth? That is always a tricky thing. Because I think mythology and truth dont mesh that well. The truth in a myth lies hidden and is not that easy to see.

Whatever....here is my version of what happened. The Titans were in fact quite "normal" people. Like humans....but very advanced in things like technology, magic or science. It is also possible that they evolved to such a state and that they were like todays humans when they arived on Azeroth. At some point something they did went incredibly bad. Some kind of "cataclysm" which they were not entirely inocent about. At that point they decided to leave the planet. However they left something here. Once these things are found the Titans would know this world is hospitable again. Populated by thinking beings. Now once they know that...they will return here for good or bad...that remains to be seen. Metamagic 22:52, 10 February 2008 (CET)

Problem is evolution doesn't apply within this game. Lore has established that, for the most part, the races of this game are the result of intelegent design. Wether from the old gods, titans, elune, or demons, every creature is the direct result of one of these beings, or mutation from another source. Considering that life on azeroth started 140 some odd thousand years before the game started, it would be impossibe for the kind of evolution we see to happen naturally. Thats the kind of stuff that happens over millions of years. Lore has offically established that elementals ruled azeroth under the old gods before the titans came, and then the titans shaped life as we know it.

And as a matter of point, evolution will stop if a creature is perfectly addapted to its enviroment. Sharks and crocodilians have barely changed over hundreds of millions of years because they are so well adapted. The dinosaurs of un'goro are the same, so long as the enviroment doesn't change theres no reason for them to change either.Tweak the Whacked 22:23, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Hm...hm...hm....well...I'd rather say evolution does apply here. I mean the night elves evolved into Naga. The Earthen evolved into Dwarves. The "fantasy" element means this happens very rappidly. I don't claim that evolution started millions of years ago as far as Azeroth is considered. It happens more like mutation. However what is mutation? Nothing more than a sudden rapid step in evolution. Brought about by magic in this case.

In the end...lets just say that you have your opinion and I have mine. Both correct in its own way. Cause nobody knows what really happened. Metamagic 23:55, 10 February 2008 (CET)

Children of Old Gods?
Anyone believe that the Titans were children of the Old Gods, but Titans decided they should have been killed. Similar to Greek Mythology were Olympians over through Cronus and the other Titans. Also connects to Twilight hammer belief


 * The Titans "discovered" Azeroth after many years of creating the universe. So... no, not really. ~My rage bar is blue and I start the fight pissed - Peregrine 18:56, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Well they had to have had parents, considering Sargeras, and Aman'thul are brothers, and what other known beings are powerful enough to have titan children.Geeko 19:55, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * A previous generation of Titans? A race we haven't yet seen? Or, they simply could have popped out of the ether at the same place. Note that this discussion is non-editorial and should be concluded or moved. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 20:01, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Can't have been a previous generation Aman'thul is oldest and wisest of his race. Geeko 23:21, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Heed the Ragestorm!-- 23:24, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Dark titan icon?

 * As eredar have different race icons to draenei - including female eredar, of which only three are known - I move that we therefore also have a suitable dark titan race icon; for example:
 * [[Image:IconSmall Dark Titan Male.jpg]]
 * Even though there is only one dark titan known so far (though others apparently exist); as he is the prime antagonist of the Warcraft series I do not believe it superfluous to allow him an icon. -- 11:12, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Other Dark Titans exist??


 * Link, please. ~My rage bar is blue and I start the fight pissed - Peregrine 01:52, 16 June 2008 (UTC)


 * dark titans was used as a plural term in Magic & Mystery.Baggins (talk) 02:18, 16 June 2008 (UTC)


 * If there are other dark titans, maybe one of them could be behind one of the many plotlines in WoW. Although if any of these dark titans have the strength of Sargeras, Azeroth is going to have a big fight on thier hands.        (talk  - contr ) 02:24, 16 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I keep picturing an expansion to WoW, "World of WarCraft: The Travellers" or some such name, featuring the return of the Titans... and, the return of Sargeras. ~My rage bar is blue and I start the fight pissed - Peregrine 17:02, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

The image of Titans
Okay what are Titans supposed to look like? There a lot of pictures on here of them looking like humans or superhumans. Then there are the pictures of them looking like Stone giants or Stone guardians. (talk - contr ) 06:34, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
 * There are pictures in both the main Titan article and those of the individual Pantheon members. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 11:43, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I know that. That is why I am asking, what do they really look like? Thier individual pictures or the pictures of them looking like stone giants? Both type of pictures are different in depicting a Titan.       (talk  - contr ) 12:02, 13 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what you mean. By definition, the titans are gigantic humanoids made of metal. I think every image we have tries to convey this.-- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 13:00, 13 June 2008 (UTC)


 * He means this looks more like this than this.-- 23:45, 13 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh. Well, I'd say that this is the in-game rendition of this. You can see light reflecting off his skin in the latter. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 01:24, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

The main titans look like their artwork. If they appear in-game they will be forced to use a stone giant model, as a short cut. Also there are other pictures of titans ingame presented in bas relief on the walls of Uldaman. Not sure if anyone has bottered to upload the textures though. It would be nice. It makes them look like greek dieties.Baggins (talk) 01:32, 14 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes what SWM said was what I was trying to say. If they look like the greek dieties, then they look human — just more grand and strong. If they look like metal humanoids or guardians, then that is more like the in-game model. I was just wondering, are they metal-skinned gigantic statue sized guardians or are they huge greek type idealic looking humanoids who might even be related to humans. Like the saying goes:


 * if a lower technological society ever met a higher technologic society, they would think the advanced society are magical and gods, when in reality they are just more ahead in thier civilization technology.       (talk  - contr ) 04:32, 14 June 2008 (UTC)


 * They look like metal-skinned greek dieties, and the named ones look like they do in their artwork... Its not that difficult.Baggins (talk) 04:37, 14 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Ok well to me the named ones in the artwork don't all look like metal-skinned giants. Just look at Khaz'goroth and Aman'Thul.        (talk  - contr ) 05:15, 14 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Its easy to tell which skin color they'd have based on their subrace vanir, and aesir. However, how do expect to tell base on just a black and white picture? Put two and two together. Certainly a black and white picture isn't going allow you to see "metalic" colors.Baggins (talk) 05:26, 14 June 2008 (UTC)


 * That is true. Although I do think that the Titans are probably more similiar in looks to humans then we think.LOL I don't know if it was them or the people who first met them. Someone just made them look a little better, like we use airbrushing nowadays.         (talk  - contr ) 05:32, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Its offical lore that they have metallic skin, platnium(sp?) and bronze, respectively, except for Sargeras, whos skin is of molten metal.Tweak the Whacked (talk) 05:38, 14 June 2008 (UTC)


 * What was Sargeras before? A vanir or aesir?        (talk  - contr ) 05:41, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Point of note the majority of information we know about titans and the artwork for them comes from the same book, Shadows & Light. Additional information is in the warcraft III manuals, and Warcraft encyclopedia. Most of that information is in the various articles. If you want to learn about the individuals look at those. Also look at the pictures of Sargeras (point of note one more still needs to be added). Also I believe its said sargeras skin is like molten bronze, its mostly solid but apparently has cracks of molten liquid leaking out.Baggins (talk) 05:44, 14 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Well I know Sargeras looks way different after he turned evil. He looks like Deathwing did when he turned evil, like you said cracks in his skin with molten liquid leaking out. Also he has a tail, is very tall, and just looks plain evil.        (talk  - contr ) 05:59, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Where is it said he has a tail? Haven't seen a picture or read a discription of him to suggest he has a tail, though one picture does show him with goat like legs, which seems to be the biggest difference between him and the other titans, besides the flaming skin and molten flesh.(And its largely believed that was simply an avatar of Sargeras, anyway. Note it uses a spear, not his shattered sword)Tweak the Whacked (talk) 11:19, 14 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh in the novel, The War of the Ancients. They described the real Sargeras when he was on the other side of the portal getting ready to come into Azeroth, and it seems like a lot of the demons have tails. He changed a lot from the former Titan he was. The novel says he makes Archimonde and Mannoroth look like fleas. The power of 100 dragons was nothing to him. He has molten armor that actually makes your eyes seem to burn, a very loud voice, his eyes look like the abyss, he has fangs now, a long tail, and his hands end in wicked talons. It would make a great drawing I think.         (<span style="" title="'s Talk">talk  - <span style="" title="'s Contributions">contr ) 11:31, 14 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Roland, I don't think we've been specifically told, but we can extrapolate that Sargeras was a Vanir. The "molten bronze" description would hold true for other Vanir, the molten thing being the what metal skin would give the appearance of.-- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 12:54, 14 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh ya, I was just telling Tweak the Whacked about where I found the inormation about Sargeras' tail, and added some extra stuff I found on that page.        (<span style="" title="'s Talk">talk  - <span style="" title="'s Contributions">contr ) 12:58, 14 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Point of note, Sargeras is specifically confirmed to be vanir in Shadows & Light . Also I think its implied that Sargeras has shape-shifting abilities so he could appear any way he wants too, and his appearance seems to vary between sources. Here is his Shadows & Light descripton which also confirms his tail;


 * The being is huge almost beyond comprehension, and is fully clad in a burning suit of molten, black armor. Wildly dancing flames surround its head and form a thick mass of hair and a sweeping beard. A pair of horns extends from the being’s forehead and a burning tail sweeps behind, leaving a trail of glowing embers in its wake. One of its arms hefts a massive, etched lance that is lined with a series of viciously hooked barbs.

--Baggins (talk) 17:53, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

strength of titans
Why is it that in many ways the Titans seem very superior and strong, and in other ways just an average race? On one hand, they created the Azeroth we know now. On the other hand, they had to create giants and earthen to fight just the soldiers of the Old Gods. (<span style="" title="'s Talk">talk - <span style="" title="'s Contributions">contr ) 01:52, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Earthen and giants were made after the old gods were defeated. Not a discussion for a talk page, regardless.Tweak the Whacked (talk) 10:01, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Quotes?
If it is a quote from a source, shouldn't there be quote marks around the sentences? This way I don't grammar check it, then get blamed for touching a quote. (<span style="" title="'s Talk">talk - <span style="" title="'s Contributions">contr ) 09:59, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Greatfather Winter
Greatfather Winter is thought to be a titan. "They consider him to be the personification of one of the ancients of Azeroth - the Titans." Rolandius ( talk  -  contr ) 04:11, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Has anyone ever thought that Hodir might be Greatfather Winter? He is the guardian of the Temple of Winter. User:Thio


 * Being considered to be something doesn't make you one. Cenarius is considered the son of Ysera, but that isn't the case. Deathwing considers himself a god, but he certainly isn't. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 22:51, 26 December 2008 (UTC)


 * We could say that about a lot of characters. On WoWWiki, we consider the watchers of the temples, like Hodir, and statues, like Maiden of Virtue, as all being Titans. Rolandius [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] ( talk -  contr ) 02:44, 27 December 2008 (UTC)


 * There is significantly more evidence for Hodir being a titan than Greatfather Winter. It is more than possible that Freya, Hodir, Loken, and the Maiden aren't actually titans at all (particularly in the case of the latter individual), but is is clear, though visual appearances, location, and text, that they are titan-connected or created (again, except for the Maiden). Aside from that one line of text, however, there isn't anything connecting Greatfather Winter to the titans. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 03:34, 27 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I think it fits because the whole category is called "Others" and is speculation. All the entries have "presumed" after the characters. Rolandius [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] ( talk -  contr ) 03:42, 27 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The so called statues like maiden of virtue, etc, are actually unclassified or classified as unknown-type of giants. They are "titans" in as much that that they use the model named titan. Not sure what Freya's model name is however, but she is apparently an aspect/avatar of freya (something akin to Sargeras avatars, which have been referred to as titans as well). Assuming they are "statues" is probably higher leap of speculation than just classifying them by their model names.Baggins (talk) 04:43, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Return of the Titans?
I read a long time ago on the WoW forums that the Titans would return to Azeroth, and sort of "remake" the world the way they originally created it. I was wondering if this is real lore, or if it's just fanfiction? Any sort of input would be gerat. --Zentyr (talk) 21:01, 8 January 2009 (UTC)


 * That the Titans will one day return is a certainty. That they will "remake" the world or anything to that effect is a rumor. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 21:07, 8 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The Stone Watcher of Norgannon hints at it in, but he is vague.-- 21:11, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Ah yes. I totally missed that the first time. It is really vague, though. It's tough to get their meaning by "forces both internal and external." External certainly implies the Legion, but internal is a tough one. The Elves and the Sundering? The Old Gods? Who knows, but I'm guessing the Old Gods. The Titans will want to crush them once and for all. Then, I'm guessing, the Mortal races will help them and the Titans will probably be on their way (or just remain on Azeroth to keep the peace).

--Zentyr (talk) 00:18, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I read on WoWWiki that it seems the titans already came to Azeroth twice. So wouldn't that be more of a second "return". It is not like they left and never came back yet. Rolandius [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] ( talk -  contr ) 06:33, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Where did you read that? And when in the Warcraft timeline did this take place?

--Zentyr (talk) 20:58, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

It's mentioned in the Tribunal of Ages. The titans came and shaped Azeroth. Then the Old Gods put the Curse of Flesh on all the titanic creations, so they came back, imprisoned the Old Gods and redesigned the earthen. 21:16, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Come to think of it, it really depends on when Uldum was made. The Stone Watcher of Norgannon specifically mentions Azeroth being "rescheduled for visitation". If Uldum was made at their first coming the forces mentioned might have been the Old Gods and the visitation would have been their second coming. If however it was made at the second coming the revisitation might not have happened yet. 21:25, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Also, "Scheduled for visitation" just means they might return to check up on things then leave. If they planned to remake Azeroth, I'd think that it would be scheduled for "reordering" or something of the like. Besides, it's not like we know when Ulduman and Uldum were built. If they were built before the Titan's return, then, perhaps, the Stone Watcher is speaking about a visit that already took place. It's hard to make sense of this stuff.

--Zentyr (talk) 23:29, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Booyah! Jackpot! "Uldaman is an ancient Titan vault that has laid buried deep within the earth since the world's creation." I found this quote on the page on Uldaman. The quote itself was originally from Blizzard. It seems our friend the Stone Watcher is behind on the times.--Zentyr (talk) 07:14, 10 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It would have been nice if the titans had just visited the one time and not done all of this Tribunal of Ages redesigning. Although Stone Watcher could be behind the times, it confuses some people too. Reading the lore and books before the expansion, it seemed like there was a war between the titans and their creations versus the Elementals and the Old Gods. The titans then left Azeroth with their creations to watch over everything. Now it looks by the Tribunal of Ages info that they only fought the Elementals, so why even create those races since the titans are strong enough to fight just Elementals, and then left Azeroth with their creations only to come back and have to fight the Old Gods. So if that is true, then creating those early races, making the different Giants as guardians, giving the Dragon Aspects power, etc. was for nothing. When they did return, they didn't seem to mention to some people like the Stone Watcher anything and also didn't wonder if the different Giants and Dragon Aspects didn't do their job. I like the previous lore where it slowly got bad for Azeroth. That way it looks like the different Giants and the Dragon Aspects did something for Azeroth at least for awhile before the Old Gods slowly turned things bad for Azeroth. Also, is there enough room in the timeline of Azeroth for the titans to have created the lands and left Azeroth, then return and fight the Old Gods, and then for the Olds Gods to already start covertly influencing Azeroth for a second time in events like the Troll Empires versus the Azj'Aqir Empire, the War of the Ancients, and the War of the Shifting Sands? Rolandius [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] ( talk -  contr ) 08:43, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

The titans might have been able to deal with the elementals themselves, but when they were gone there was nothing to stop the elementals from coming back again, as indeed happened. So they would have had to leave some sort of guardians behind to stop them in future. However they didn't expect the Old Gods, and did not make their creations powerful enough to deal with such a threat. So they had to come back and do it themselves. Once the Old Gods were locked away they left Loken, who might have been one of their own, to oversee the defense of Azeroth against any such future threat.

And yes, there is room in the timeline. The titans came to Azeroth for the first time about 150,000 years ago. In the 140,000 years between then and the War of the Ancients, which is the first detailed recorded event in history which is known to be based exclusively on truth, there is time for anything to have happened. 09:50, 10 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I thought they sent the "major" elementals to the Elemental Plane? I guess they might have thought they could escape one day and left the guardians. I am wondering though, unless it is answered in a quest, how did the Titans even know that something was wrong on Azeroth and that they had to come back to deal with the new problem of the Old Gods? Especially since the second visit was an "unscheduled" return. Rolandius [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] ( talk -  contr ) 11:22, 10 January 2009 (UTC)


 * That's what I meant. The titans locked away most of the elementals in the Elemental Plane, but later on they escaped again. As for how the titans knew there was a problem, perhaps one of the dragon aspects could communicate with them telepathically? Or maybe they left behind little cameras or something so that they could monitor Azeroth's progress while working on the next world. Who knows. 12:19, 10 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Or some of the "titan watchers" sent an SOS. Rolandius [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] ( talk -  contr )

To interject, Rolandius, you read speculation on the non-primary source WoWWiki (Talk:Ulduar earthen) that it seems the titans already came to Azeroth twice.-- 00:36, 11 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Ah I see. I thought they said Tribunal of Ages was their source or something. Rolandius [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] ( talk -  contr ) 03:47, 11 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It is, but it seems to be a bit unclear. I just wanted to point out that the info is not for sure.-- 04:05, 11 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Hopefully we will see a Tribunal of Ages 2. LOL Rolandius [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] ( talk -  contr ) 04:36, 11 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Right, so does this mean that we've got a new, preferably short speculation section here? -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 19:38, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Okay, just to clarify, the Titans probably won't come back, right? Or is it not as clear as that? --Zentyr (talk) 01:50, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The Titans are definitely returning, it's just a matter of when. And there aren't any indicators of that. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 02:16, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


 * vaguely says yes. The Tribunal of Agess too bombarded with fan speculation to conclude much from.-- 02:23, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

And the stuff about them reshaping Azeroth is just a rumor? (It would screw up the gameplay, after all) --Zentyr (talk) 03:30, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * More or less just a rumor, yeah... Though the concern about gameplay being screwed up is moot if they were to do it in another game. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 10:19, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Algalon
Well, listening through Algalon the Observer's sound files (which are INCREDIBLE by the way, I truly love his voice acting) them "reshaping" Azeroth doesn't mean reshaping. It means the complete obliteration of all life on the planet in an effort to purge a perceived "taint". Apparently they have even done this multiple times on countless worlds, and even entire solar systems, killing millions in the blink of an eye. Basically, what they've done right now is to actually send Algalon to check up on Azeroth's condition, due to the death of Prime Designate Loken (from what I've gathered). His mission is to see if Azeroth is "tainted" or not, and if it is, he is going to send the "Reply Signal Omega", which is basically a call to the titans for a complete planetary purge. If all is well, he'll send reply signal Alpha, which is basically All is well.

I'm going to directly quote first the Archivum, and then Algalon himself here.

Archivum: Initiating query. The Algalon failsafe is an automatic emergency signal, following a prime designates demise. Affirmative, time stamp of Prime Designate Loken's destruction coincides with signal activation. Destruction of prime designate is considered the first warning sign of systemic planetary failure. Algalon Observer entities arrival is followed by planetary diagnostics, resulting in one of two possible reply signals. Reply code Alpha, signaling all is well, and Reply code Omega, signaling planetal reorigination, the decomposition of the planet and it's living organisms into base elements. Metals, rocks, gases. This is followed by a period of reconstitution of each element into the original planetary blueprint. Algalon diagnostics assess danger of systemic Old God corruption in planetary vital functions. Calculating chance of Omega reply code... 99.99%. Repeating, of course. (Leeroyyyy Jeeeenkiins!)

Algalon: Translocation, complete. Commencing planetary analysis of Azeroth. Stand back mortals, I am not here to fight you. It is in the universe's best interest to reoriginate this planet should my analysis find systemic corruption. Do not interfere.

Presumably, this part is what he says if you fail to stop him in time: Analysis complete. There is partial corruption in the planets life support systems, as well as complete corruption of most of the planet's defense mechanisms. Begin uplink. Reply code: Omega. Planetary reorigination requested. Farewell, mortals. Your bravery is admirable.. for such flawed creatures. You are..... out of time.

If you defeat him, now: I have seen worlds bathed in the makers flames, their denizens fading without so much as a whimper. Entire planetary systems born and razed in the time that it takes your mortal hearts to beat once. Yet all throughout, my own heart, devoid of emotion, of empathy. I. Have. Felt. NOTHING. A million, million lives wasted. Had they all held within them your tenacity, had they all loved life as you do? Perhaps it is your imperfection, that which grants you free will, that allows you to persevere against all cosmically calculated odds. You prevail where the titan's own perfect creations have failed. I have rearranged the reply code. Your planet will be spared. I cannot be certain of my own calculations anymore.

Do not worry about my fate, Bronzan. If the signal is not transmitted in time, reorigination will proceed regardless.. SAVE YOUR WORLD!

Anyway. Whoo. That took some time, and I hope you'll excuse me for posting this here, I'm certain it's already common knowledge. Anyway, the reason I posted it in the titan article rather than in the Algalon one is that this shows us just how Neutral the titans really are. I believe Algalon, like the titans, have been unable to see the people. You can't see individual beings on a map, and I suspect that's what this "reorigination" is. A planetary purge from above, or possibly from within (dun dun dun). He only realises this as the end approaches, though, and redeems himself at least partially of the millions of death's he's caused.

Anyway, sounds like a bad drama now. What I wanted to say was: The titans aren't the all good creators of the world. They are blind in their search for perfection. This doesn't suit very well with them considering Dwarves a valid mutation of Earthen, however, as Dwarves are a deviation and thus would have been destroyed. If ever, I'm more confused!

Anyway, I'm very much new to this, so if this is the wrong place to post in feel free to scold me :D Crawl Through Knives (talk) 21:52, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Uldaman reliefs
Could someone get a good picture of the titan reliefs in Uldaman? They would good for the article.Baggins (talk) 03:24, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Fate of the Titans
Why are we still doubting as proof of Thorim, Mimir, Freya, Hodir, and Tyr are titans and not titanic constructs? Loken is likely one, as he is their superior officer. As it is now, the non-pantheon list is entirely based on model.-- 22:30, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The only reference in the quest itself is the name of the quest; aside from that, all other references calls them Watchers, and Loken is called a Sentinel. However, if Thorim is a titan, then Loken must be, as they're called brothers and act like they're biological/blood brothers. Aside, they may indeed be Titans, and simply be one of the "lesser" branches of these demigods. --Scieran (talk) 19:28, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The titans are explicitly NOT gods or demigods. One other thing to note is that the "incredibly power" thing everyone thinks of when they think of the titans really only refers to the Pantheon, who are the most powerful of the titans. Your average titan would be considerably less powerful. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 22:19, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The quest dialogue for refers to Freya as a "daughter of the titans", and Algalon has a line about the failure of "the titans' own perfect creations". Furthermore, the boss bestiary preview refers to Ignis the Furnace Master as one of several titan creations in Ulduar who now serve Yogg-Saron and refers to Hodir as a giant. I don't think we have enough evidence to conclusively prove or disprove the theory that the watchers are titans, and I don't think the article should be written with the assumption that the theory is correct or incorrect. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 08:26, September 11, 2009 (UTC)
 * I've split up the known titans section into a known titans section (which currently only includes the Pantheon) and a suspected titans section. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 08:32, September 11, 2009 (UTC)

Tribunal of Ages / Shadows & Light
I think we have enough evidence to conclude that the Keepers of Ulduar are titans, based on these two sources.

Relevant quotes from the Tribunal of Ages encounter:
 * Brann: If they killed the Old Gods, Azeroth would have been destroyed.
 * Kaddrak: Correct. Creators neutralized parasitic threat and contained it within the host. Forge of Wills and other systems were instituted to create new Earthen. Safeguards were implemented and protectors were appointed.
 * Brann: What protectors?
 * Kaddrak: Designations: Aesir and Vanir, or in common nomenclature, Storm and Earth Giants. Sentinel Loken designated supreme. Dragon Aspects appointed to monitor evolution of Azeroth.

Relevant quotes from Shadows & Light:
 * "There are two presumed types of titan, the stronger, smarter, more agile Aesir, and the tougher but less powerful Vanir."
 * "The Aesir are platinum-skinned giants that once crafted the oceans and skies. Their sphere of power is storm, frost and water."
 * "The Vanir are bronze-skinned giants who crafted the mountains and deep places of the world."
 * "Titan flesh is metallic, and their veins pump molten iron and precious metals for blood."

Comparing the two:
 * Kaddrak says Aesir and Vanir were appointed to watch over the imprisoned Old Gods. S&L says Aesir and Vanir are types of titans.
 * Loken is named as the leader of these, suggesting he's either Aesir or Vanir himself. The other Keepers (save Mimiron) look to be of the same race, and Thorim is even said to be Loken's brother.
 * Kaddrak says Aesir and Vanir are also known as Storm Giants and Earth Giants. S&L says Aesir titans are giants with storm powers, while Vanir titans are giants with earth powers.
 * Each of the Keepers is a metal giant with powers that relate to storms (lightning for Thorim and Loken, frost for Hodir) or earth (plants for Freya).

Egrem (talk) 07:39, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * There are other possibilities, such as Aesir and Vanir referring to both titans and the giants under them that share a sphere of influence. Also, this info may mean that the information from S&L has been retconned (keeping the nature of titans mysterious), even though I would like to avoid that assumption.-- 21:20, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't see evidence of a retcon here. Kaddrak said the Keepers were Aesir and Vanir, and their depictions are consistent with the Aesir and Vanir from S&L.  It said Aesir were commonly known as "storm giants", but what else would a commoner call a 30-foot man who shoots lightning from his hands?  Loken or Thorim clearly aren't mortal storm giants (like Gymer), given their distinct appearances and greater power. Egrem (talk) 22:43, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Kaddrak did not say that the Keepers were Aesir and Vanir. It said that Aesir and Vanir were appointed as protectors, and placed under the command of Sentinel Loken. The Keepers are protectors, and were under Loken's command, but it is also said that the Aesir and Vanir went to war with each other. Nothing has ever said that the Keepers went to war with each other. Loken and Thorim were sort of in a war, but Loken is platinum-colored, and Thorim hurls lightning, so they are both Aesir. Also, Thorim and the ice/frost giants went to war, but the ice giants seem to be some form of Aesir as well (not matching S&L's description, but seemingly being a form of "storm giant"). It was not said that the Aesir and Aesir went to war. Loken or Thorim clearly are not mortal storm giants, but they also have not been actually said to be Aesir either, while storm giants should (in theory) be "storm giants." Interestingly, the Tribunal refers to the Aesir and Vanir as giants, but lists giants under "seed races" also including the earthen and vrykul. So, by my interpretation of your reasoning, the Tribunal regards the Aesir and Vanir as giants, but not (mortal-ish) giants... which may (confusingly) be correct. I do not know. I also do not know why there are two types of storm giants. It seems reasonable that a storm-based giant would be a "storm giant," and by extension a "storm giant" would be an Aesir. It also seems reasonable that based on S&L's info, an Aesir would be a titan. We both dismiss the idea of the storm giants like Gymer being titans, but you readily apply the same reasoning that makes them Aesir to the Keepers based on power scale (and a single quest name, even if you did not mention it).-- 23:26, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I may be misinterpreting, but I don't think "The Aesir and Vanir went to war" necessarily means the war was "Aesir vs. Vanir" - just that they were all involved in combat.
 * Marnak: Data suggests that impetus for global combat originated with prime designate Loken who neutralized all remaining Aesir and Vanir affecting termination of conflict.
 * Could that not refer to Loken's betrayal of the other Keepers? "Fate of the Titans" revealed that major battles took place at the Temples of Invention, Winter, and Life (resulting in Mimir, Hodir, and Freya being captured).  Tyr and Thorim were also "neutralized" because the former disappeared (for some reason) and the latter was driven into a stupor (as a direct result of Loken's actions). Egrem (talk) 00:52, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Confirming the Statues of the original races in Uldaman
In the titan trivia section it is stated that According to some statues scattered around Uldaman, the original five races of the world were trolls, earthen, tauren, mountain giants, and sea giants.

I can only suspect that this is a Source book quote as i can find no such statues in game. It seams to me that such a statement is of monumental importance in Warcraft's history and is in dire need of a citation.

Marbo1 (talk) 03:54, 13 January 2011 (UTC)


 * As discussed here and here, that note is based on unused statues scattered around Uldaman's model files. It should probably be removed. Edit: I have removed the trivia note, along with the rambling that followed it. I kept the cited furbolg comment.-- 04:00, 13 January 2011 (UTC)