Talk:Alliance of Lordaeron

A map of the Alliance Kingdoms
That would make everything beautiful :) Cowlinator (talk) 19:43, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Must agree with Cowlinator, it would be wonderful with a map like this one, just covering the Eastern Kingdoms or Lordaeron with all the nations marked in the same way as in the STV map. However I don't got a clue how to make such a map.. -Rovdyr (talk) 13:55, 13 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Just found this map on the german official forum, that's what you thought of, just the names are translated...:

--Hurax (talk) 15:49, 3 July 2008 (UTC)http://mitglied.lycos.de/khyrinda/pics/lordaeron2sk0.jpg

Greymane and Trollbane's Titles
I think it's a mistake to assume they went by the title King, since of the other human leaders, only one was a king. Lothar was the Regent Lord, Proudmoore was an Admiral, Perenolde was a Lord, and of course Dalaran has the Kirin Tor. In any case, unless they are called King in a game or other work, we shouldn't presume.--Aeleas 10:37, 16 August 2006 (EDT)


 * "Proudmoore was an Admiral" Lord Admiral. (wink)


 * "Perenolde was a Lord" Yes, that's the title used of him in Warcraft II, but wasn't he also called Baron (not in the game)?


 * "In any case, unless they are called King in a game or other work, we shouldn't presume" Well, Thoras' son's title is Prince. Of course, that doesn't mean that his father had to be a king. Theron.

I'm not sure about Perenolde's title. If he was referred to Baron in some sources, that can certainly be noted in his article.--Aeleas 18:59, 16 August 2006 (EDT)


 * I'm not sure about Perenolde, but I belive that Thoras Trollbane was a king. Theron.


 * Thoras was a king, see the talk page for him. -rovdyr

Northeron
I'm also not sure I agree with referring to the Wildhammer dwarves of Aerie Peak as the nation of Northeron. If we take Northeron to be an old name for the Hinterlands, it covers much more than the dwarves' territory, which includes only Aerie Peak.--Aeleas 10:41, 16 August 2006 (EDT)


 * "I'm also not sure I agree with referring to the Wildhammer dwarves of Aerie Peak as the nation of Northeron. If we take Northeron to be an old name for the Hinterlands, it covers much more than the dwarves' territory, which includes only Aerie Peak." Are you sure? http://www.wowwiki.com/Northeron . Has it really been stated that the Wildhammer dwarves held only the Aerie Peak? Theron.

In WoW they only hold Aerie Peak, with the rest of the Hinterlands (the vast majority) being occupied by a high elf lodge and many troll villages and monuments. The War2 manual merely says they are from Northeron, with no further elaboration. Unless there is another source which uses the term to describe their nation, I don't think we should use it in that way.--Aeleas 18:59, 16 August 2006 (EDT)


 * Ok, I think you are right. Theron.


 * Its possible that the old nation of Northeron included Grim Batol region as well, as that used to be the Wildhammer's old home, granted they are on seperate continents, or could have been the old name for the Grim Baton region before they moved to the Hinterlands.Baggins 22:15, 1 December 2006 (EST)

Did i get soomething wrong? as i remember Northeron was the mountains surrounding the Hintherlands. -Rovdyr

Lord - not an official title in this case
I don't think that Lord was any human leader's official title, but rather an general naming used of people who were in high position. For example, King Terenas Menethil II was never called King in the game Warcraft II, he was called Lord. Also, the term kingdom is used of Alterac and Gilneas in World of Warcraft. --Theron the Just 16:09, 20 October 2006 (EDT)


 * The term kingdom is also used in the War2 manual to describe Kul Tiras, yet it's ruler is given the title "Grand Admiral". Stromgarde is also a kingdom, but Trollbane is referred to as "lord of Stromgarde". Terenas, as king, may well have been the only one to use that title - he was called both "Lord Terenas" and "King Terenas" in the game and manual - but the others were not addressed as "King".  It's not a question of guessing what their official titles were, or making presumptions about their systems of government, it's just a question of going by how they were addressed in the official sources.  That's "Lord" for Perenolde and, for Greymane, no title was given that I am aware of.--Aeleas 17:35, 20 October 2006 (EDT)

"he was called both "Lord Terenas" and "King Terenas" in the game and manual" I know that he was called King in the manual, but I don't think the title was ever used in the game (By the way, I agree with you now about Thoras Trollbane's title). Regards, --Theron the Just 10:54, 8 November 2006 (EST)


 * Actually in the Warcraft II manual, ruler of Kul Tiras is called "Lord Admiral". He doesn't become Grand Admiral until joins the Alliance.Baggins 22:09, 1 December 2006 (EST)

Leaders and representants of the Alliance nations.
Let's try to identify the people in the picture.

http://www3.filehost.to/files/2006-11-08_03/160709_800px-Leaders_and_representants_of_the_Alliance.jpg

My opinion?

1. King Terenas Menethil II. 2. Representant of Stromgarde. 3. Regent Lord Anduin Lothar. 4. Grand Admiral Daelin Proudmoore. 5. Representant of Quel'thalas. 6. Representant of Alterac. 7. Representant of Dalaran. 8. Representant of Gilneas. 9. Representant of Khaz Modan.

Regards, --Theron the Just 11:05, 8 November 2006 (EST)


 * To be fair to give alternate interpretations, 2, 6, and 8 if not representives, could be Trollbane, Perenolde, and Genn Greymane, and its possible that 4, could just be a representive of Kul Tiras and not Daelin. As that uniform seems to be common for fleet of Kul Tiras.Baggins 22:13, 1 December 2006 (EST)

Also the according to the RPG and even in World of Warcraft, it says that it was the leaders of the Lordaeron were at that meeting rather than just "Representives", for example;

"Lothar met with the leaders of the seven nations of Lordaeron...The Alliance of Lordaeron was formed."

or from the Alliance Player's Guide;

"King Terenas of Lordaeron calls the other human kings together to discuss the Horde and Stormwind."

or from the in-game book in World of Warcraft, The Alliance of Lordaeron;

"the leaders of the seven human nations met and agreed to unite in what would become known as the Alliance of Lordaeron."-Baggins 04:34, 8 December 2006 (EST)

I think the Elf looks too feminine to be a dude, I dont mean to be rude

(Mr.X8 20:34, 25 May 2007 (UTC))


 * That's why the article speculates that Alleria represented Quel'Thalas. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 13:26, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

"Lothar met with the leaders of the seven nations of Lordaeron...the Alliance of Lordaeron was formed."
The man from Dalaran cannot be it's leader. Dalaran is not ruled by a single person, but a goverment body that works much like a senate. Another ane of the errors the "guides" contain. --Theron the Just 21:29, 8 December 2006 (EST)


 * Well actually Alliance Player's guide says that Antondidus is the closest that Dalaran has to a leader, and he is the leader of the council of the Kirin Tor. So by all intents that could be Antonidus.Baggins 21:32, 8 December 2006 (EST)


 * Also, just to make sure are you forgetting the quote from the warcraft II manual;


 * "Recounting terrible tales of destruction and carnage..., the Steward Lord Anduin Lothar convinced the sovereign of Lordaeron to unite themselves against the great threat. Despite much quereling and debate, the lords aquiesced to Lothar and Terenas, and agreed to unite their armies under the general command of Lothar himself." Baggins 21:36, 8 December 2006 (EST)


 * For that matter if you just had one member of council of the Kirin Tor there you would infact have a "Dalaran Leader" there, by all technical definitions. Baggins 21:47, 8 December 2006 (EST)

"For that matter if you just had one member of council of the Kirin Tor there you would infact have a "Dalaran Leader" there, by all technical definitions." Pompey was in high position in the Roman Senate before the civil war between supporters of Caesar and the Republic started, but he was not ruler of the Roman Republic. An member of Kirin Tor can be concidered as one of Dalaran's head of states or "leaders", but not sole leader or ruler. Regards, --Theron the Just 21:56, 8 December 2006 (EST)


 * It can be interpreted that Antonidus was the "leader" of dalaran by being defacto leader of the council of kirin tor by some designers. Besides if you don't like the interpretation made by the creators of "Word of Warcraft" video game, or the rpgs take it up with Metzen if you want to. All I can do to remain NPOV, is only quote what official sources say, not make up my own opinions on the matter.Baggins 21:59, 8 December 2006 (EST)

"It can be interpreted that Antonidus was the "leader" of dalaran by being defacto leader of the council of kirin tor" This is what I meant. We had a small misunderstooding earlier. Still, the reason I prefer my lines, "Leaders and representants of the Alliance nations." is that not all of those persons are leaders. Regards, --Theron the Just 22:05, 8 December 2006 (EST)


 * What do you expect even warcraft II manual called Dalaran "leader" there Sovereign and a Lord. Its not like the designers have changed their terminology since the original source much. The "Human Leaders" quote only truly applies to the human nations at the council meetings though, who were the "leaders" of their respective human nations. The later sources are specific to point out refrence to the "Human" nations. It doesn't really apply to the High Elf or the Dwarfs, which you might know weren't given 7 nations sections in the warcraft II manual. They were more like side-alliances appart from the main alliance. So yes the official quotes are the best in that section imo. Though if you would like to add in a second sentence that mentions that high elves and dwarves were at that council as well, that would be even more accurate.

For example;

"The leaders of the seven human nations met and agreed to unite in what would become known as the Alliance of Lordaeron. While Quel'Thalas and Khaz Modan also sent representives as well."22:18, 8 December 2006 (EST)


 * No offense, but its spelled Antonidas not Antonidus =) -Rovdyr


 * Well the idea that the seven kingdoms were "sovereign" "kingdoms" with "monarch" "kings" and those kingdoms "rulers", actually appears to have originated from Day of the Dragon and not the RPG (though its implied as early as W2Manual as well). Any claims that the RPG "made a mistake" are simply wrong as the RPG was clearly referencing earlier information from the novels and/or manuals. I've added in some of the relevant quotes from Day of the Dragon on the matter and cited the information. Also looks like they are called kings in Tides of Darkness.Baggins 13:28, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

"I will summon my neighboring kings, These events concern us all."-Tides of Darkness. It's geting more interesting.Baggins 08:47, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Initial meeting
Tides of Darkness confirms who was at the initial meeting, and some of the later meetings, including the kings and leaders from the seven human "kingdoms"(yes it calls them kings and monarchs) of Alliance, as well as a few others. I've cited the information, as it really isn't much of a spoiler as it was mentioned in previous sources. But it should allow us to add individual pictures from the meeting table artwork to their related articles, as it is a stronger confirmation.Baggins 23:28, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Something I just noticed
Out of the 7 human kingdoms only the Kul Tiras remains in the Allience of Lordearon. (Azeroth never enterd it since only refugees joined it, Alterac betrayed it, Stromgarde and Gilnease left it after the second war, and Lordearon and Dalaran got sacked.)--The last Alterac 12:48, 9 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually Azeroth/Stormwind was considered a member state even though they were just refugees, they remained in it even to the point they recaptured Stormwind and rebuilt it.Baggins 21:08, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

stromgarde rejoined after third war, dalaran is still in existence and is still aligned with the Alliance Dunnsworth 02:57, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

The template
Should we put the Dwarven citys,Gnomeregan,and silvermoon on the current history of the citys template? 16:31, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Maybe all of the Alliance of Lorderon citys 18:29, 22 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think we should add each city, but rather the nations, so we should just add Quel'Thalas, Gnomeregan, Ironforge, and Aerie Peak -Rovdyr (talk) 16:15, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

The kingdoms that the Horde destroyed during Warcraft II: Beyond the Dark Portal
Well in the Horde Campaign you have to destroy the nations of Azeroth (city of Stormwind), Kul Tiras and Dalaran but in Warcraft III and World of Warcraft they aren't destroyed, also in the table below it isn't show they were destroyed in the interim between warcraft II and III, so this nations are really destroyed? Also Dalaran is destroyed during the Second War and it is told in a mission of Beyond the Dark Portal that it was indeed destroyed still we see in Warcraft III it was totally healthy, so is all the Orc campaign of the expansion retconed??? Benitoperezgaldos 06:05, 30 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, SW is destroyed, and rebuilt between wc2 and WoW (the nation wasn't in wc3 iirc). Not real sure about the Kul Tirasians off the top of my head, but Dalaran was not destroyed per the orc campaign, only raided per the Alliance side of things, iirc. --Sky (t · c · w) 06:17, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * While the events of Warcraft 3 are all part of one single narrative, in Warcraft, Warcraft 2, and Warcraft 2: Beyond the Dark Portal, the two campaigns were separate, mutually exclusive storylines. In choosing the official timeline for Warcraft 3 to follow, Blizzard basically picked a few events from each campaign, and retconne the others out of existence. -- Dark T Zeratul 12:56, 30 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Not "mutually exclusive" exactly there were some crossovers between missions in that missions in one campaign referred to events in the opposing acts missions. But then towrds the end they cease to interweave.Baggins (talk) 16:22, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Ive just read Beyond the Dark portal, and from what ive read, it says that neither Dalaran nor Stormwind nor Kul Tiras were destroyed, instead they were infiltrated/raided. So how does everyone feel about this bit of info? I feel that the Orc campaigns in WC2: Beyond the dark portal may have been slight exagerations, since the way to win in those games is command and conquer and not sneak and infiltrate, and the way they tell it in the book is that the Horde infiltrators snuck in. Unless i read it wrong, but im pretty sure i didnt see anything about the Horde laying siege to Stormwind again. In the book it seems the Horde army itself didnt even get through the blasted lands. Plus I have not found any in-game references to Stormwind being destroyed a 2nd time. So, change it to Stormwind was only destroyed once? Or does anyone have different evidence? Nvd23 (talk) 16:57, 21 August, 2010 (UTC)


 * So....No one?...if theres no responses soon im gonna change it :P  Nvd23 (talk) 13:04, 2 September, 2010 (UTC)