Talk:Emulated server

Propaganda?
What propaganda? I read over those terms and it said right there that they can and will sue for "damages," which usually means "monetary compensation". How is stating solid fact considered "propaganda"? ~ Doc Lithius (U)(T)(C) 16:49, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Because the article is compromised by weasel words. By using words like ‘legality’ and bold text while leaving out important facts in order to promote Blizzard’s view – that is propaganda. Currently, there is no international/national law that gives Blizzard powers to enforce the Eula. The only thing it can do is to sue the owner of public emulated servers for exploiting its software in some countries. You make it look like you’ll get charged and jailed by logging on to or making a server for yourself. Kos 04:41, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * For the record, I was using bold words for emphasis. Not to suck up to Blizzard or some nonsense like that.  I have read over the EULA and particularly Section 12 time and time again.  It reads to me exactly like I said it does.  If it would satisfy you, however, I can send an e-mail to Blizzard's legal department and get their official jurisdiction on exactly what they mean by "appropriate equitable remedies with respect to breaches of this License Agreement".  I don't generally speak "legalese", but I do know a lot of big words in English...and that particular string of words still says to me "Hey.  We'll sue you if you do this.  So please don't do it, okay?"  ~ Doc Lithius (U)(T)(C) 08:59, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Um, did you see my additions? They will take legal action against you, if they aren't satisfied with just ending your account. --Sky (t · c · w) 04:42, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

How can they take 'legal' action against you when they have no laws backing them up? Perhaps in the USA, but this does not apply to all countries in the World. Kos 04:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The ToU says they can. People who set up emulated servers agree to play the game they purchased from Blizzard. It even says "under international law", unless I'm quite mistaken. --Sky (t · c · w) 04:47, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * You're mistaken. Regardless of what the ToU states, what jury is going to award damages to a big corporation when all the user did was connect to a private server? You're taking a very ridiculous stance and actually arguing the merits of it. Reverse straw man for the fanboi win? Raize

No, it says it can under your national law. However, if there is no such law then it cannot. Besides, that is not how international law works. Kos 04:50, 5 June 2007 (UTC) And, for your little edit, how does international law work? --Sky (t · c · w) 04:54, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Section 2 of the ToU states: "The Program and the Service are protected by United States and international laws. The Program and the Service may contain certain licensed materials, and Blizzard's licensors may enforce their rights in the event of any violation of this Agreement. [italics for emphasis]". I'm fairly certain that emulated servers fall under the use of "The Program", correct? --Sky (t · c · w) 04:53, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * No, not correct. Emulated server is not Blizzard's program. It is somebody else's program that emulates same behavior. However, most important is that you're constantly miss a single thing: Blizzard can write anything in their EULA or ToS. They can write that by playing WoW you agree to give your firstborn to them. However, there's no law that would support that claim. Nor there's a law that allows Blizzard to forbid you from using somebody's else program. For example no matter how much Microsoft would like it to, they can't forbid anyone from using WINE. Same here. Blizzard can block you from their own services, but that's all they can do. Please, just remove those "punishable by law" words until some faithful zealots start citing wowwiki on that - they only make anybody at least somewhat familiar with actual laws laugh. --Rowaasr13 11:35, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Irrelevant. We're not talking about how the use of an emulated server is illegal. We're talking about how using Blizzard's WoW client to connect to emulated servers is illegal. There's also the possibility that these emulated servers use copies of the code in the actual servers, which is also illegal, but that's offtopic. Pzychotix 13:32, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Not illegal either. Either you name law that forbids that or ToS/EULA have just exactly same significance than any paper I can write in seconds, because where I connect (or how I reroute connection from my PC) simply doesn't fall under any law I know, no matter what software you use. --Rowaasr13 15:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about? We're not talking about how or where you connect from. I said that you can't use their software in an unapproved manner. Not to mention that this is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT, because this is a talk page about EMULATED SERVERS. Not the inproper use of their game client. Pzychotix 05:52, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

International law is based on treaties between different nations. Like the Geneva Convention. However, there is no 'Blizzard's Treaty '. Perhaps they mean 'and other laws in different countries'?Well, I have to go now. Cya ;) Kos 04:57, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps International_law#Conflict of laws? ;) --Sky (t · c · w) 04:59, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Could you be more specific? Kos 10:56, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Have we reached consensus then? It is evident that neither Pzychotix nor Doc can find any evidence, law or treaty that supports Blizzard's claim. Hence, since the article is compromised by weasel words and certain claims cannot be verified, I suggest a complete rewriting of the Legality section and that we fine-tune the rest. Kos 04:31, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Err what? I haven't even talked about your points. Pzychotix 05:52, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It should be noted that in many states, the EULA is enforceable. Sure, it may not be enforceable in your particular country. Fine. Nothing we can do about that. But it still means that Blizzard reserves the right to sue your butt the moment you do step into American territories (ignore the plausibility of such a thing happening). I would like to mention that this particular topic inside the page actually talks about the use of the Game Client to connect to servers other than Blizzard. This is not the same as running an emulated server.
 * However, in the past, such software has been ruled illegal. See Blizzard vs. bnetd. Certainly, the bold face font is a bit extraneous, and shouldn't be particularly emphasized. Pzychotix 06:27, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, I revised the page. Feel free to comment. Kos 11:20, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Just to start a new topic, yeah I know, violation of their user agreement. I know people who have NEVER played retail world of warcraft, ever, only on private servers. They only bought the game for playing on emulated servers. But the question is, how is this in bad coding of their game? People pay to buy their game, and most people have played real wow so they have payed their ridiculous payment of 15 bucks a month. If theres "over 5 million players online" this means from 5 million players, EACH MONTH, they make 75 million dollars?! Thats insanity and a true success at the same time, but, seriously come on now these emulated servers are gonna make them lose..? The servers are free and the people running them have to go out and buy their game anyway so how much are they losing.Not enough to match up to what they make daily..such stupidness.


 * And this is not a forum. 23:32, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Eula/EULA

 * Note about EULA - wikipedia has it as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EULA and so does Blizzard. 20:53, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * They also have Eula there too. We really should have a policy on this type of stuff. Pzychotix 20:56, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "“Eula” redirects here" is not the same as the page saying "Eula". Pretty much everywhere online, it is referred to as a EULA, not a Eula. . I really don't see a need for a policy on this. We use whatever most people use. A simple Google gives the answer. :) 21:15, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Blizzard simply uses EULA in their documents because all of them were written in the USA. Wikipedia allows both European and American English. I don't have to teach myself a new language in order to edit Wowwiki, right? When you talk about 'the people', who are you talking about? If you search for Nato or artefact, you'd probably find them written as NATO and artifact on most pages, but this doesn’t mean that the others are incorrect or that most people use American English Kos 04:36, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * That's an awfully biased comment. --Sky (t · c · w) 04:30, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * It wasn't finished yet. WHere's the prejudice? Kos 04:40, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "The people" was probably a bad choice of vocabulary by Kirkburn. The bias: "I don't have to teach myself a new language in order to edit Wowwiki, right?". This is a ridiculous statement. No, you don't. But we both speak English here. Systematically changing every word from American English to British English is silly; in fact, wikipedia even has policy against systematically attacking the words in an article due to the differences within the same language. --Sky (t · c · w) 04:47, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm British and I spell it EULA! I cannot recall ever seeing it written as Eula in any UK document.


 * The wikipedia section on it:


 * "Proper names formed as proper acronyms are often rendered in title case by Commonwealth writers, but usually as upper case by Americans: for example, Nasa / NASA or Unicef / UNICEF. This does not apply to most initialisms, such as USA or HTML; though it is occasionally done for some, such as PC (Police Constable)"


 * Is EULA really a "proper name"? 06:06, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * You're citing the wrong section. ;P See WP:MOS#Disputes over style issues, as well as WP:MOS#National varieties of English. --Sky (t · c · w) 06:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I cited the same section Kos cited when changing it to Eula :P 10:51, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

"EULA" is an acronym for "End-User Licensing Agreement". "Laser" is a word somebody in decided to make up because a verb, "lase" was coined in 1962. Either this person or someone else entirely decided capitalizing the acronym for "light amplification by simulated emissions of radiation" didn't feel right after that. What's my point? My point is if you want to get downright technical, "EULA" is "correct" while "eula" is not, much like "laser" is not as "correct" as "LASER". ~ Doc Lithius (U)(T)(C) 07:58, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * When in doubt, use it as Blizzard does. This is hardly a topic worth arguing over. It should be noted that World of Warcraft is still an American game. No one's insinuating that British is inferior to American English, but if we're going to frivolously put both spellings into places that don't absolutely require it, this place could get a whole lot messier. Are we going to do "Terms On Use (TOU/Tou)" now? BWL/Bwl? DoT/Dot? Even DKP/Dkp? This is just ridiculous. We should find better things to do than argue over whether British spelling should be used. Everything on here is spelled in American English. It's an American game. Unless the article has some relation to a British topic (i.e. a UK Guild), just let it go. Pzychotix 08:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * /me coughs and points to Writing policy - "The WoWWiki language is English (all styles)." In descriptions of things it is perfectly acceptable to use UK, US or any popular variety of English - however, when it come to the things themselves, we should use the "official" terminology. Essentially, this is just like the mage/magi discussion of a while back. 10:56, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, but what I meant was that we shouldn't just include every possible variation on a word just because it doesn't accommodate someone's "style of writing". E.g. this page's "EULA/Eula". It's a little ridiculous IMO. Pzychotix 11:23, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * No worries, twasn't really a direct response at you :) 12:29, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

As far as I remember, it was you (like in ‘you all’) who changed Eula to EULA, so you’re not completely innocent yourself. You say my comment was unfair, but when compared to what I can read here... I haven’t seen so much American triumphialism since War on Terror was declared. However, have it your way. It isn’t very important to me. Kos 12:05, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * May I point out I'm proudly British, and I changed it back to EULA. I have absolutely no wish to go live near the US :P 12:27, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I suppose we are 'continentals' and 'colonials' to you then :P However, after we’ve gashed Britain to pieces, we’ll own your insignificant island just like we control America today. Then, you will all willingly embrace EU world domination and the Americans shall feel the true meaning of Deutschland, Deutschland Über Alles! Just you wait, Wowwiki and McDonalds! Soon, you will all be sauerkraut. Muh-haha ha-haha *cough cough* Kos


 * Mmm, sauerkraut! If you bring Diddl, I'm happy =) 12:40, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Himmel! It's Lidel! Kos 12:45, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Specifics
The article should only explain what an Emulated server is. It should not contain information regarding how playing on an emulated server is achieved. -- 20:19, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * It dosn't... What are you talking about. --Punyhuman 13:05, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Consider the date on which the original comment was posted; the article has changed in the past three months. This was posted back in June, which had this article up and included comments that allowed people to infer how to accomplish this.  I think Gryphon was referencing a change he made.   13:34, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

PTR as Legal Alternative
Oh, oh, oh!! I just had a great idea! Would it be worth putting into the article that certain phases of the public test realm can essentially be a "legal alternative" to emulated servers in that the pre-made characters automatically come maxed out at the cap level with some of the best gear in the game? I'd put it into the article myself, but I'm not sure if it's actually noteworthy or just an "opinion piece". ~ Doc Lithius [ U|T|C ] 22:57, 5 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I guess they are in a way, but it is not their purpose. They are for testing content, not for playing around as max characters. 23:25, 5 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Well...yeah. I know.  But I figured it might've been worth mentioning anyway.  :D

~ Doc Lithius [ U|T|C ] 05:28, 6 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Don't you have to have a payed account in order to access the PTR? That would defeat the main purpose most people use emulated servers for anyways...Baggins 02:42, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

WoWWiki's View
How does this site feel about private servers? I know they're illegal but you guys aren't tied to Blizzard so I'm just curious.  Mr.X8  Talk Contribs  02:36, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm of the "live and let live" mindset, myself. I may not participate on or advertise them, but I'll probably answer questions about them should the need arise (again).  I see no harm in that so long as it's simple stuff like "How to I fix my faction reputation if I've nuked it?" or "How do I go to war with my own faction?"  Stuff like that is still ever-so-slightly on-topic of the real World of Warcraft, see.  I'm pretty sure that advertising emulated servers or linking to places and/or resources for them, however, goes against WoWWiki's rules and will get you banned, if not suspended.  Bear in mind, I'm just making an educated guess here and speak not for anyone but myself here. Hope that helps!~ Doc Lithius [ U|T|C ] 03:44, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Regardless of whether or not we are tied to Blizzard, the ToS and EULA say private servers are inappropriate uses of the software (which is, basically, a big violation of copyright and all that sort of thing.). And then, basically what Doc said. Though we usually give a warning first. -- Sky (talk | con | wh ) 04:01, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Legal Response
I'm not a lawyer, and I don't want to get all legalese, but I did want to add to the article that Blizzard has and will take legal action against emulated servers. While I can't find any public cases on a quick google search besides bnetd, which is a bit different, I know for a fact it's happened. Sites I used to be active on were shut down, and an emulator I used to work on got me some lawyers knocking on my door. Obviously don't want to get into details, but just wanted to back up my claims.


 * The effort is appreciated. 03:08, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Very appreciated, in fact. You've done a groovy job of not only cleaning up our mess, Bane, but adding a something of great importance as well.  Thank you. ~ Doc Lithius [ U|T|C ] 15:02, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Awww, gunna make me cry... ;) --Bane 18:57, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I am going to have to call BS on "lawyers knocking on your door" over working on an emulated server. Lawyers don't knock on doors. The fact that you even phrase it that way makes this smell like some serious fanboy attention grabbing. I am a retired attorney, and when I read that it just rankled me. It actually prompted me to create an account just so I could post this. Keltaric 07:09, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Merged from Ctalk:Unofficial Servers
Hey, I saw you created Category:Unofficial Servers, just wanted to ask what for :-P All servers are "official" normally, unless you were talking about test servers etc, which are anyways temporary, so not sure its needed. Thanks :-) --Adys 03:47, 21 October 2006 (EDT)


 * Um Adys, I think you're wrong. There are unofficial servers, run only by players. I have tried playing on them once. They are legal and some are very famous all over the world. Unofficial servers are created by players who can edit the very database of the game (say, mess with the fun, sometimes) and change the loot, the creeps, the NPCs, and sometime, if the game masters really kick ass they can add their own things.-- K )  (talk) 04:23, 21 October 2006 (EDT)
 * They're also known as "Private servers".-- K )  (talk) 04:24, 21 October 2006 (EDT)


 * I know them Kirochi, and yeah there are many well known Private Servers, however they are not legal at all, and I doubt WoWWiki is going to have articles about them any time soon. Blizzard barely allows programs like WoWModelViewer and WoWMapViewer to exist, let alone private servers :) --Adys 06:14, 21 October 2006 (EDT)


 * If that's the intention of the Unofficial Servers category, I'd advise against it.  -- Mikk  (T) 06:25, 21 October 2006 (EDT)


 * I just wish to stress that 'unofficial servers' are completely illegal. Blizzard does not allow access to the server software, and the use of it is effectively stealing. In any case, the wiki is not in the habit of attracting Blizzard's ire. -- Kirkburn  (talk) 07:54, 21 October 2006 (EDT)


 * Adys and Kirkburn, please do not post your opinions on matters you know nothing about. The so-called "private servers" are not using ANY blizzard server software - the emulators were developed from scratch by a huge community of skilled developers. Blizzard is perfectly aware of this fact, and that's why NOT ONE owner of a "private server" was ever contacted (not to mention sued) by Blizzard. And by the way, there are some very popular private servers with over 2000 players - and they are doing quite well despite your claim that their activity is illegal. --sahib 17:48, 08 July 2007


 * The ToU explicitly prohibits connecting the WoW client to any server except that run by Blizzard. Blizzard shuts down private servers whenever it can.  The activity IS illegal. --Pcj (T&bull;C) 19:47, 8 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you, you just proved my point. Running a private server is not illegal - connecting to one is. And please don't spread around lies about Blizzard doing anything in this case - they are helpless, and the fact that every day more private servers appear just proves that whether you like it, or not. --sahib 02:23, 11 July 2007


 * Connecting to a private server is NOT ILLEGAL. It's against the TOS. You will not have police show up at your door for connecting to private servers, people. Quit arguing the legality of any of this, absolutely NONE of it is illegal. Blizzard does NOT create the law. --Raize

Actually, the facts about Private servers are as follows: The "redacted"-type emulator is a "privately legal" project. This means as long as you know personally everyone who connects to it, you're allowed to run it. However, it is in violation of the ToU to connect a World of Warcraft game client to one of these servers, and often requires third-party software to do so. Since patch 1.9, Blizzard have been over-writing the "SET realmlist" variable to their default (eu.logon.worldofwarcraft.com or us.logon.worldofwarcraft.com) to prevent the use of private servers. The "redacted"-type emulator was illegally maintained, and has (I believe) been shut down. Few of these servers remain, and those that do are highly illegal, due to violations of NDAs by developers on the project. I have very little data on redacted-type emulators, so I can't back this up and for all I know I could've been fed lies about it.

If you wish to connect to a redacted server, I suggest you download a redacted client (nowhere near as cool as connecting with a WoW client, I might add, but a helluva lot more legal).

I would like to point out that, although it violates the ToU, connecting to a redacted server is NOT illegal. The most blizzard can do to a redacted community (provided all its members are personally known by the server owner) is ban their WoW accounts, which isn't much because most redacted players don't have official accounts anyway.

As for where wowwiki stands, that's up to the admins - but there's no reason not to include as much information as I've provided, I'd say telling people how to connect to servers is dubious and broadcasting server addresses and user/pass combos (or the addresses of certain illegal "signup" sites) is a big no-no.

I hope I cleared that all up. Yoda  talk  / cont  11:05, 25 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Redacted names. Sorry. 23:31, 26 March 2008 (UTC)