Talk:Knights of the Silver Hand

Silver Hand?
This was the Order of Warcraft III. But how is the Order called that you server as Paladin in World of Warcraft? -(unsigned)


 * According to several NPCs, the order you join is indeed the reformed Silver Hand. See the Paladin Lore page for the direct quotes. -(unsigned)


 * I've updated the article to reflect the conflict, as well as removing the sections which were duplicated between Knights of the Silver Hand and Paladin lore.--Aeleas 13:11, 15 September 2006 (EDT)


 * You do NOT join the order of the reformed Silver Hand. The game considers your paladin character to be a remnant of the OLD order - and as such certain NPCs refer to you by this. Just think about it: do you think Silver Hand paladins would train someone in the powers of the Holy Light that has not even joined their order? Besides, the WoW timeline advances individually by the quests you do. You could hardly do quests for the reformed order of the Silver Hand if you would later witness its creation, could you? - Tulon 11:30, 08 Nov 2006


 * I'm not sure I entirely agree with this edit. Before, the article explained that there was a conflict between what the paladin trainers say ("Welcome to the Silver Hand"), and what the Fordring quest line implies (that the order doesn't exist anymore), and offered a speculative explanation to reconcile the conflict.  The current article doesn't address that conflict, and takes the speculative reconciliation as proven fact.--Aeleas 20:25, 8 November 2006 (EST)


 * I know that the lore in WoW by itself can be confusing at times, but think about what I mentioned above. In -my- opinion it would be wrong (or at least unnecessary) to let the old speculations/implications of the order still existing remain in the article. The lore is not conflicting here, it is rather pretty clear on this matter when you count it all together. Above all, you also never see a paladin with some  tag next to his name (where some should have it, would the lore be conflicting), with the sole exception of Tirion Fordring, who is about to restart the order. Also, the paladin trainer doesn't say "Welcome to the Silver Hand", he merely says you're one of them and have to do your job - that IS a difference. However, let's gather some more opinions. It's never too late to re-insert that into the article. -- Tulon 09:30, 09 Nov 2006


 * If you're one of the Silver Hand, how does that not imply that the Order exists? Also, the dwarf trainer does say, "You're a Knight of the Silver Hand now." I don't think we can say with any certainty whether that is simply a mistake in the lore, represents some vestige of the old order, or has some other explanation.--Aeleas 10:33, 9 November 2006 (EST)


 * The problem here is that the old Silver Hand has never been officially dismantled, just scattered all over the two continents with no leadership and reduced to a fraction of its former size - so every Knight of the Silver Hand who wishes to do so can still call himself and his brethren like that, even when everyone in the world would know they are no longer members of a real order (since they are all working on their own now). This does not affect the fact that the Silver Hand is officially reformed by Fordring later on. That's complicated, but it is not conflicting. I just think it is better to assume the most likely situation (which is backed up by the Alliance Players Guide, too) than to continue to list several conflicting theories, and thus confusing the readers, since the lore really is NOT conflicting here when you add it all together. We can explain it, and thats what we should do here. No one mentions conflicting lore with the Scarlet Crusade just because Brother Crowley tells you they are the good guys. But you have a point, maybe we should explain this matter in the article. I just do not want to see these outdated theories anymore. -- Tulon 16:00, 09 Nov 2006


 * If the Alliance Player's Guide has specifics on the current state of the Order, then citing them would certainly be sufficient. Otherwise, I think any assumptions or speculation should be clearly marked.--Aeleas 15:43, 9 November 2006 (EST)


 * I can quote a dozen articles over the various RPGs that are all in agreement that there is still a "Knights of the Silver Hand", it just isn't as strong as the original order. I've listed a few of the sources in the article those obviously aren't the only ones.Baggins 15:25, 3 December 2006 (EST)

I was sitting in Lights hope and noticed the dialog going on in there, and it just so happened I was reading this article. This is a quote from Commander Eligor Dawnbringer "Now be silent and note where you are, lest I inform Lord Fordring and his knights that you are no longer here on amicable terms. I am certain he would take great pleasure in seeing your 'atonement.' Apparently the order has something to do with the brotherhood of the light if one Commander Eligor Dawnbringer would report this kind of thing to Fordring. - Zanzubar

If you think back to WC3 (those of you who have played it), Arthas officially disbands the Silver Hand. But they continued to function even though they weren't "official". It's kinda like a underground organisation to help people. But now, Tirion is officially "undisbanding" (meh) the Silver Hand. - Garridan

In response to Tulon: Yes, the Order of the Silver hand WAS officially disbanded. Arthas himself did it before the battle of stratholme in WCIII


 * On, the other hand it might be important to point out, but technically, perhaps only the active king at the time could have truly disbanded the Silver Hand. At that point in time Teranas was alive and well, and it wouldn't be for a few months later that he died. As I recall, even Uther says as much that Arthas didn't truly have the authority to disband them, during that scene. Additionally the Silver Hand is actually under the authority of the Church of Light, as stated in other sources, such as Tides of Darkness, which according to that book was its own ruling entity separate from other leaders of the world (actually it was originally based out of Northshire in Azeroth). So it may be questionable as if Terenas actually had the authority to disband them as well. Actually if it was the Archibishop that banded them in the first place, it may take an Archbishop of the Church to disband them.


 * However, more importantly, while Arthas may not have had the the true authority to disband them, he effectively did by destroying their leadership after he returned as a death knight. But it can still be argued that they existed in some form after that. Calling it "underground" might be reasonable description.Baggins 19:55, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

human paladins are usually to stubborn to let things just die if you think about it as long as one paladin is alive he or she will believe that the order lives on with them, so the order may not have had a purpose or a leader the order of the silver hand it selth did NOT disband even if one man sad it is. jettz 12:32, 6 may 2009 (EST)

Notable Members
Should this section include player characters? I've noticed that there are a few on the list and I think the section should be for paladins that actually appeared as units/NPC's in the Warcraft series. --TM41 11:06, 21 February 2007 (EST)

New Order of the Silver Hand
I don't know much of the Silver Hand lore in Outland, but atleast in the coming Northrend expansion it seems that the Order of the Silver Hand has been re-established with Tirion Fordring, wielding the Ashbringer, as their leader.

Source: http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=632.0 16:30, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


 * the new order still should be alliance, not a cenarion circle(horde destroy nature, killed cenarion and still canarion is friend to horde.... crap lore beak) several reasons: blood elf(uther's tomb/epic mount Blood knight quest... you kill farmer of hillsbrad to get their heads..) sorry but horde had and has several evil acts so its not: hey man any race can be part of it now! But to be part you have to be good, not take evil actions, well you know... so its not about horde can't enter because of race, its because situation. and please don't come like: hey but horde helps a lot with scourge and argent ... no man you can help but you still are horde.. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by.

This argument is fail. Not all the horde is evil. Tirion Fordring judges people based on their honor. If a hordie is honorable and brave, he accepts them. You claim its not about race, yet you say "you can help but you still are horde."

It has also been confirmed that based on your class, the quest text is going to be slightly different. That is, if you are any class but Paladin, you'll be an "honorary" member of the silver hand. If you're a paladin, you're officially in. It remains to be seen if blood elves will see different quest text.

About Horde Killing Cenarius, After Grom Hellscream Drank Manaroths Blood He Turned Into A Fel Orc And Lost Contral And Killed Cenarius Because He Was A Fel Orc, And I Personal Think Aliance Is Evil "AT TIMES" But Most Of The Time There Not Nat 06:54, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

For one thing, not every member of the Alliance is good. And if you think Tirion would discriminate against the Horde, think again: Eitrigg. 'Nuff said. Bherethor (talk) 23:28, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Blood Knights of the Silver Hand
Tirion Fording is one of the few characters in the entire game who sees past race and history. Uther Lightbringer himself acknowledges the Blood Knights and even encouraged an enraged Blood Knight to continue to work for the glory of Silvermoon and Quel'Thalas. Now that Tirion will take up the mantle of the Silver Hand's Leader, how feasible will it be for the Blood Knights of Silvermoon and the Knights of the Silverhand to join forces? Both are politically motivated by the same reason. Arthas, the destruction of their homes, and culling of their friends and comrades. They know they are going to need all the allies they can get to bring the fight up to Arthas. But will it happen in Wrath of the Lich King? Will Tirion Fording initiate an alliance or even more, intergration of Blood Elf Paladins and Alliance Paladins? I hope with all my heart, I do hope that the Knights of the Silver Hand will be a neutral faction that we can Rep-Grind, with some extra treats for both Horde and Alliance Paladin Community. It would make sense considering the Druids have their Evergrove. Will Paladins our SilverHand ^_^ --Invin Dranoel 13:35, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes i think it would be awesome, the last expansion had the cenarion expedtion with stuffed geared for druids, if blizz made the silver hand a faction with stuff geared torwards paladins, i would love to run around with a silver hand tabard and a kick ass pally mace(druids got earthwarden)--User:Dunnsworth


 * What about the true masters of the light chain? They destroy the founding site of the KotSH.-- 22:56, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, they DID desecrate Uther's tomb as well but the man/ghost forgave them. I'm willing to believe Tirion is more than willing to forgive them for destroying a church in the middle of an already destroyed city if they are willing to help out. "What would Uther do?" --Invin Dranoel 04:58, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * In the "True Masters of the Light" quest the player is not only destroying the founding site of the Silver Hand protected by the Holy Light, they're also supposed to kill five members of Tirion's new Silver Hand in order to complete the quest. Note their faction tag which is identical to the one of Tirion Fordring after he vows to restore the order. Effectively, that's a declaration of war. --Tulon 20:15, 25 October 2007

the problem is, it doesnt say in any of the quest texts "tirion's new order of the silver hand." says that they are paladins.... thats about it.

The Blood Knights see themselves as the only true paladins, and all others as vile heretics that they believe they have the right to destroy wherever they find them. Joining the Silver Hand? Yeah right. --Xavius 08:03, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

The Blood Knights are now aligned with the Naaru. [] I'm pretty sure they will join the Silver Hand with the Naaru vouching for them. They need a new source of holy energy now that Mu'ru is gone.

Tirion seems like a very forgiving guy, with the war fresh on his mind, he still helped an aging orc, no one else would have done this. That and the Blood Knights allying with the Naaru now, there is no doubt that they will join the Order. Now Draenei, they may refuse beacuse they already have an orginization, which would anger me greatly.

there's to much hatred between the humans and the blood elf's thay will never let one anver join there orders, the horde and alliance have tried working together before but the truce's never lets due to old hatreds for the first,second and third war.

Grayson Shadowbreaker
Just why is Grayson Shadowbreaker mentioned as a member of Tirion's New Silver Hand? There's not even a hint anywhere to support this claim. As of now, the only official members of Tirion's order aside from himself are the five paladins who show up in Stratholme during the Blood Knight quest. --Tulon 20:15, 25 October 2007


 * He was a member of the old Hand.-- 21:17, 25 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The Knights of the Silver Hand hasn't died, its just got a leadership issues right now.Baggins 21:24, 25 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Apparently it died enough to allow the remaining members of it's leadership to found the Scarlet Crusade - and allow Tirion to establish the Silver Hand anew. To quote Fordring himself: "I now take my place as Highlord of the new Order of the Silver Hand."


 * It's members still hold the organization in high regard, but it is these leadership issues which basically led the order to become scattered, seperated pockets. Grayson Shadowbreaker is the leader of one of these pockets - nothing more, nothing less.


 * Grayson Shadowbreaker was a member of the old order and may have held that title back then, but there's no connection of him to Tirion Fordring or the New Silver Hand. At least not yet. Especially not considering his rank in the new organization. Remember that Stormwind and the Plaguelands are two different "time zones" in the static world of WoW. Also, Grayson is missing the faction tag which Fordring and the five other members of his order do have. --Tulon 00:10, 26 October 2007


 * By the way - I think it's quite likely that Uther's 2nd in command was Lord Commander Saidan Dathrohan, one of the five founding members of the Silver Hand and apparently also lord of Stratholme, the city which housed the order's headquarters. --Tulon 04:30, 5 November 2007

High Elves
Were there ever any HEs?  Mr.X8  Talk Contribs  03:19, 16 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Mehlar Dawnblade was Uther's apprentice before Kael renamed his race in Blood Elf. Thus he was a High Elf paladin. --N&#39;Nanz 09:09, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

It may be an old topic, but I think that it deserves mentioning that Champion Isimode is currently the only known High Elf Paladin ingame. Quel Dragon (talk) 21:25, November 14, 2009 (UTC)

If you count half-elves, Arator the Redeemer also qualfies. Deepred (talk) 02:18, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

Tabard/Sign?


Is there any official tabard/sign of the silver hand? I remember seeing the Lordaeron symbol used but ever since I've been to Old Hillsbrad I started to wonder if the tabard on the pic is the official sign.. -Rovdyr 22:48, 13 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I think the sign's just a silver mailed fist. At least that's what a lot of item descriptions pertaining to Uther and the Silver Hand say in the WRPG manuals.  Not sure what the tabard you showed was for...  --Super Bhaal 23:27, 13 February 2008 (UTC)


 * A silver fist would make sense.. but this tabard really got me thinking.. could it perhaps be some branch of the silver hand that the guys there was part of? Maybe what later turned into the Scarlet Crusade.. -Rovdyr 01:32, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I pulled up the model viewer-- it's the Southsore tabard. Could be that Mograine was charged with...paladinning...Southshore, and wore the tabard because he liked how it looked or something.  It'd be kind of neat if Alliance paladins could get a Silver Hand tabard, but I guess your actions  ( healing the sick, giving Richie a home, food for the homeless )  are supposed to speak louder than words, and if people see you performing miracles they know you're a paladin. --Super Bhaal 03:40, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah that would be cool.. maybe they're going to make something like that for wotlk but who knows.. Seems kinda strange that the founders of the Scarlet Crusade is all apparently hailing from SS.. -Rovdyr 00:35, 15 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Not strange on the contrary I think that it adds some more clarifications about the Scarlet Crusade. The Ashbringer/Old Hillsbrad Event is set in Hillsbrad between the Second and the Third War. In the Second War Southshore was razed by the Old Horde. In old Hillsbrad the council of the Silver Hand fears an undead holocaust. They fear the Horde and the Undead, what's the difference with the Scarlet Crusade? This is the start of the Scarlets' fanaticism --N&#39;Nanz 19:05, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Here it is!!! Old Stratholme picture. --N&#39;Nanz (talk) 10:53, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd like a source for that. 10:56, 17 June 2008 (UTC)


 * What kind of source do you need!? It's from a picture of what is now known as Scarlet Bastion (in fact now it bears the sign of the Scarlet Crusade) that before the culling was most likely led by the Silver Hand --N&#39;Nanz (talk) 11:11, 17 June 2008 (UTC)


 * From what site did you get the image? If it's from a site that provides alpha info, and not an official source, it needs to go away. 11:14, 17 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The image is on the Stratholme page of wowwiki too. However I think it comes from blizzcast --N&#39;Nanz (talk) 11:25, 17 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Checked! Here it is --N&#39;Nanz (talk) 11:26, 17 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I stand corrected. Good find. 11:29, 17 June 2008 (UTC)


 * It's very similar to Stromgarde flag --N&#39;Nanz (talk) 11:53, 17 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The Ashbringer disk has that.-- 18:13, 17 June 2008 (UTC)


 * No, it's different. It has the shape of a open hand, not a fist. [[Image:AshbringerWOglow.jpg|thumb|right|Ashbringer model without glow.]] --N&#39;Nanz (talk) 12:18, 18 June 2008 (UTC)


 * N'Nanz was right,the Ashbringer got an open hand.. Anyway I added the banner with the symbol to the article.. -Rovdyr (talk) 22:33, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it's different but I think it's only a placeholder, a retextured banner of Stromgarde (blue, white crossed background instead of the red one). The laying on hand of the Ashbringer is the Silver Hand --N&#39;Nanz (talk) 12:00, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Well we can't decide on wich one should be official ourselves, unless there is a description of their symbol in the RPG, however I don't own them.. -Rovdyr (talk) 16:09, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Surely we can't. I was only pointing out that the disk of the Ashbringer has a unique image while the tabard in Old Stratholme is a reused texture. --N&#39;Nanz (talk) 14:57, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Maybe the Ashbringer symbol is of Tirions new, reformed Silver Hand? -Rovdyr (talk) 23:03, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think the rpg describes the Knights tabard. Now if you go back to Warcraft II artwork the paladin had alot of Lordaeron emblems ove rhis armor, and lion of Azeroth symbol over his midsection.Baggins (talk) 23:09, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Looked around on Uther the Lightbringers page, and discovered that "A silver hand emblem rests in a bed of gold design on either side" is mentioned and sourced from S&L, but it doesn't look like there is any description of the symbol itself.. However in the artwork on the top of the page his hammer is shown with a crown as the only kind of emblem. Could that be it, or simply some mistake? -Rovdyr (talk) 16:59, 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The rpg isn't the only source for lore... --N&#39;Nanz (talk) 17:13, 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I know that, I've never even seen a single Warcraft RPG book and I think that if there is any prime source of lore then it is the novels. However The RPG is the place where you would have the best chance of finding lore on different organizations and such. -Rovdyr (talk) 17:56, 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * "A silver hand emblem rests in a bed of gold design on either side". It says silver hand without capitalization? Can anybody check? Maybe it means that the hammer had the emblem with the shape of a silver hand and it represents the emblem of the Silver Hand. --N&#39;Nanz (talk) 13:38, 10 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The article writes it without caps, but yeah someone should check the book for the exact quotation.-Rovdyr (talk) 16:03, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

The open palm on a silver disk is the symbol for the Argent Crusade. 21:24, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Q: Who is the leader of the Argent Crusade? A: Tirion Fordring --> Q: What weapon does he wield nowaday? A: the Ashbringer --> Who was the original wielder of the Ashbringer? A: Alexandros Mograine --> Q: When the Ashbringer was forged, what paladinish order Mograine was part of? A: The SILVER HAND --> Q: Does the Silver Hand and the Argent Crusade share the same tabard/sign then? A: OBVIOUSLY!!! --N&#39;Nanz (talk) 21:44, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm.. I suppose that makes sense, but I guess it'll still remain speculation as there isn't any good hard evidence to either side. -Rovdyr (talk) 23:09, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Draenei Vindicators/Hand of Argus.
Would Draenei be considered part of the order? Or do you think they will have the ability to become one? I don't want the order to become a class only faction similar to Rogue's with their Ravenholdt, that Draenei cannot join.


 * I would think that they are independent of each other, thus a draenei paladin would not be considered a member but should (in theory, at least) be able to join, like High/Half Elves, dwarves and anyone else that belongs to the Alliance, and believes in the Light -Rovdyr 12:07, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Yea. the Draenei paladin is considered "The Hand of Argus", not particularly sure it fits within the timeline of draenei arrival on azeroth, VS order of the silver hand years ago. only time will tell, as im willing to bet the new order will be another rep grind. Tbgtr34 (talk) 23:19, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Current status
I added a quote from WCIII to play up the difference with a paladin in WoW. It's a translation from the Italian version of the game, don't know the exact quotation. Should somebody add it, please? --N'Nanz
 * I really don't think the "luxury/sloth/vanity" quote should be considered a basis for "purity" comparisons between Warcraft 3 and WoW paladins. The quote was clearly intended just as a joke. For this reason, I am removing that section--it just doesn't have the weight to make that kind of lore-related conjecture based on a single "unit is annoyed" joke quote. Laith Arkham (talk) 08:09, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

Symbol
With regards to "no source ever claimed that this fist is the Silver Hand symbol. All of this is assumptions": How much more evidence do we need before it's safe to assume the symbol of the Silver Hand is, in fact, a silver hand? Egrem (talk) 20:20, August 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * When asked what connection the Silver Hand had with Tyr, Blizzard said it was because Tyr replaced his missing hand with "a closed fist made of the purest silver".
 * The banners in Stratholme featured a closed fist, made of silver, on a light blue background.
 * The Tabard of the Lightbringer features a closed fist, made of silver, on a light blue background.


 * I agree this appears to be obvious, but this is not "confirmed explicitly". Maybe I am too hard on the topic, so fell free to ask other people opinion.
 * 21:59, August 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I think calling this "unconfirmed" is splitting hairs. We have a symbol of a silver hand that's been shown to be used by members and structures of the Silver Hand. I think it's rather clear that it's supposed to be their symbol. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 22:12, August 11, 2010 (UTC)