Talk:Related race ideas

'''Please, no silly races, only sensible choices. Though the rules of this page are minorly different to the future race ideas page, some races still do not qualify. Use your common sense - the Man'ari eredar, for example, are now impossible as a playable race, as are fel orcs.'''

Lost ones and trolls
If Broken are here then their more diverse and interesting cousins deserve to be here as well. Zarnks 03:18, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

The troll subspecies should be listed especially the forest trolls which have a unique model. Zarnks 03:17, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Edit: I apologize - at the moment, the page is too young and bare for the consensus guideline to really be needed. Go ahead and add them. -- 17:06, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Point of note, forest trolls use two sets of models depending on the area they are found, the skinny standard type, and the 'berzerker' style.Baggins 17:12, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Consensus guidelines aren't needed for the "subspecies" page, however, the page must follow the rules of listing only humanoids, and making sure that the material contains fully citeable information, and no hard "speculation". The same system used on the main page.--Baggins 18:07, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Don't worry, I haven't removed any of the other guidelines. -- 18:36, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the main difference in guidelines is that for something to appear as a subspecies on this page, the main species/race has to appear on the other page first, or represented by an already playable race.--Baggins 19:02, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


 * We might need a consensus for certain things, like I highly doubt that the Highborn elves would be playable, as there is no physical appearance differences to night elves, only racial ability differences.Baggins 19:06, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Hmm I think I'll add Mag'har too. Zarnks 19:08, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Mag'har isn't a race.Baggins 20:52, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Neither, technically, are the blood elves. And here lies the problem: what makes the high elves, of whom the blood elves are just a faction, any more justified in appearing on this page than the Mag'har? They are both equal in their claim: Mag'har are the high elves of the orcs; uncorrupted and clearly different in appearance. If neccessary, we should rename the page again ("future factions"?) to denote the type of "race" we should expect to see.
 * I think the Mag'har should be added. Unlike the future race ideas page, I have less reservations about what goes on this one... -- 21:29, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


 * First see species for how Blizzard defines species, subspecies, and race, in contrast to various real world definitions.


 * Mag'har are more of an organization than an actual 'race/species', from what I can find. Not even sure if they are a culturally an "ethnic group". To be fair no one has put up a valid specific definition of what Mag'har are exactly, no cited references to them being called a seperate race or not. BTW, modern orcs can come in a range of colors between brown and green, and still be "base-line" orcs, see orc's appearance section.


 * "Neither, technically, are the blood elves."
 * Not quite actually. Blood elves are officially said to be seperate races both culturally and biologically (see eyes, and some skin issues). So by Blizzard's use of the words, race/species they are seperate races, specifically and technically (although I suppose they would have been better off using the term "seperate ethnic groups"). See Monster Guide, and handful of other sources, the citations are already in the blood elves article in the appearance section. From an anthropology background, I personally despise the term 'race' in general, its imprecise, anthropologically unsound, and implies "species/subspecies" differences between different ethnic groups. You can read alot on the issue over in species. Technically, yes the various elves are said to be seperate "species/subspecies" and the various dwarves different species/subspecies. But I wonder how much of a difference there are between say wildhammer and bronzebeard. There is at least some major differences between the former dwarves and Dark Irons (major skin change, and eye change). However, species/race, and subspecies are the terms Blizzard uses, and we are stuck having to work with how they use them (even if they often use them interchangeably and give them all the same meaning, with the few times they misuse the terms and use the wrong context).Baggins 22:16, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


 * On a related note, a "future factions" page would not be a good idea, otherwise people could put up Scarlet Crusade, or Argent Dawn, or any number of factions as wanted "playable", and its obvious many factions are made up of more than just one race.Baggins 23:43, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree. Blizzard often like to take words and pretend they're synonyms and retcon lore 'til the retcons have been retconned... and we're left trying to untangle the resulting spaghetti. But anyway, this was not intended to be a discussion on terminology,
 * As we agreed previously, it's better that the high elf lobby have a page where their arguments are represented than have another drawn out war on Talk:Future race ideas. I'll give it to you straight: I don't believe any of the races on this page will even have the chance of making it and that's why I prefer them here, out of the way. I would like the Mag'har to be added because a) it'll keep Zarnks happy and b) Blizzard, being unclear on many things, makes it especially difficult to categorise all the types of orc. All I know is that corrupting influence + orc = green; and that the Mag'har managed to avoid that equation and stay a nice healthy shade of dark brown.
 * Edit: Obviously we'd need a clear indication of what we meant by "factions". The Wildhammer faction and the Defias Brotherhood faction are two separate things. -- 23:51, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


 * In anycase, while "Mag'har" is not a race, it would be more accurate to create an "Orc (uncorrupted)" or an "uncorrupted Orc" section as a seperate race (if it is supported to be a seperate race by citations). "Mag'har" appear to be a small faction of uncorrupted orcs. Their backstory isn't much different than the Frostwolves as far as the so-called "uncorrupted" status, infact, many of the members of the Mag'har are actually Frostwolf orcs. So its very unclear why they are even still brown, when all other orcs became green for just being around other orcs, and the change of the world by fel magic). Yes, there are some plot hole issues surrounding them, and other explanations made in other sources. The answer might actually be partially touched on the rpg in that there are still some "brown orcs" around within the main Horde, that were always brown.


 * Like half-ogre, the article should be named by the race name, not by any factions within the race (specifically the reason why we changed that section from "Mok'Nathal" to half-ogre). As noted previously, not all Mok'Nathal are half-ogres, and not all half-ogres are necessarily Mok'Nathal.


 * Also, imo if someone wants to put up, "fel orcs" and has a good reason behind it, by all means, I say allow it.--Baggins 00:02, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

As a matter of note, dispite the fact this was passed up a while back, forest trolls infact use three models; the skinny one that supports all armor, the berserker that suports everything but head armor, and an npc model for which there are forest, jungle, ice, and dark troll varieties, that does not support armor at all. While I seem to remember several troll mobs throughout the game using that model before(currently almost all of them use the skinny one), currently only the forest trolls of the ghostlands use it now, unless that's been replaced with the beserker model since 2.3.Tweak the Whacked 10:29, 19 December 2007 (UTC)


 * There are no dark trolls in game. Jungle trolls come in a wide range of colors including dark purple. The main three models are actually, berzerker, dire troll, and skinny model. The skinny model comes in two varieties with tattoos and without. Only Amani trolls in Quel'Thalas use the berserker model, all trolls in hinterlands use the regular skinny model.Baggins 18:14, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

If we are going to consider forest trolls, I think it should be noted that 1. The Horde already has a race of trolls so it's unlikely that blizzard will give them two of them, and 2. The Horde has Blood Elves. Remember Zul'Jin's reaction to that particular development? Meneldir 17:23, 22 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Meneldir, most of the ideas on this page are unlikely for that very reason: they are all only subdivisions of a playable race. However, I agree that longstanding enemies of a Horde race are unlikely to back down. -- 10:18, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Dwarves
I'll be putting Wildhammer and Dark Iron dwarves on the page. Just so you know. ;) Edit: Uhh... at some point. :S -- 21:46, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Point?
What is the actual difference in this page and the future race ideas page? To give ideas of other races/factions of currently played races? 23:37, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Future race ideas lists specifically unique races (that have never been playable in WoW), that might make interesting playable races. Where as this page covers races that are already variations of already playable races.Baggins 23:40, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


 * This page was a stroke of pure genius. It keeps the arguements about High Elves and Broken and Wildhammers from cluttering up the future race pages.  To whomever established this page, I bow with respect. Meneldir 17:49, 22 January 2008 (UTC)


 * It was Baggins's idea to begin with. -- 10:18, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Just generally, wasn't it stated somewhere by a Blizzard employee that any races similar to the playable ones such as High Elves and Wildhammers won't be introduced as a playable race later on? Doesn't that make this page slightly redundant? Anuragsahay 10:34, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes it does. However, if you'd have seen the future race ideas page several months ago you'll see why we created this page. I like to think it allows fans to vent their steam. -- 11:03, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Outland
I don't think having strong ties to outland should necissarily be a mark against a race. Rather, races with strong ties to outland would be a good way too keep outland involved in the story instead of saying "Ok, we went there, we're not doing anything else with it". As for where their starting areas may be, I have two words for you; Floating Islands.Tweak the Whacked 10:16, 19 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Floating islands, and also portal worlds. I agree with you.Baggins

Possible trend
With discussing races that are already close to what are available, it might be a good idea to look at the other similar races that already are in-game and see how they were handled, specifically in regards to factions. For instance, Humans and forsaken are very similar, with the sole difference being the forsaken are dead. Night Elves and Blood Elves are also quite similar, and before the expansion came out, this similarity was the leading arguement as to why the BE's shouldn't be included. Both of these similarities were overcome by simply making sure they were on opposite sides. However, this may be a moot point, as it's hard to put forest trolls with the alliance or High Elves with the horde. Something to consider though. Perhaps instead of sending them to separate factions, separate continents will be enough.Meneldir 17:44, 22 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, I definitely can't see High Elves on Horde, but Forest Trolls on the Alliance side (at least Amani, or a similar faction) can be possible. As mentioned on the page itself, they could ally against their mutual enemy, the Blood Elves.Bill 20:13, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Racial abillities
To be honest, I would love to see High Elves in the game. I actually would prefer them over Blood Elves, and I would switch mains if they were available. When I found out that Blood Elves were the race for the expansion, I took it in stride. The bird in the hand is worth two in the bush so they say. I figured that Blood Elves pretty much preempted any possibillities of the High Elves.

Something about this page momentarily made me forget my resignation. For a moment I thought that the High Elves were a possibillity. I started to get excited and come up with all sorts of ideas. This very burst of ideas and thinking brought me back to the reality of my resignation. To get to the point, in order to get a race in, they have to have unique racial abillities. Forget about all the other similarities which while important, could be made to work, the racial abillities have to be unique to the race. There could be some similarities, but they must be unique.

This would be a bit difficult with High Elves and Blood Elves. Some parts of it would be easy. High Elves would obviously not have Mana Tap or Arcane Torent, probably replacing that with some other abillities (my idea was a meditative trance to bring back Mana/Energy/Rage). However, the Arcane Affinity and Magic Resistence are a bit more difficult. Can you take them away from High Elves, who probably would still have these? It's not all that difficult to overcome this, but it would take some work.

Now to take this issue a step further, Forest Trolls are even more difficult. I am not a fan of forest trolls, but if High Elves were put in, I'd love to see their old rivals on the other side. They are just too similar to Darkspear. You can't take Berserking, throwing weapon speacialty, or heaven forbid, the famous regeneration from trolls, yet to have two races with the same racials is just a bit redundant. With High Elves I could see some changes in the racials, but not with trolls. As physiologically different as the various troll races may be (possibly more so than the High and Blood Elves), the racials are inextricably troll. Meneldir 23:10, 22 January 2008 (UTC)


 * This really is not a forum. Blizzard would make it work if they added HEs.-- 23:12, 22 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Acknowledged, however the idea should be represented on the page. Besides, I already admitted the HE's could work, although it would take some work.  It would be a miracle if the trolls worked.  Sorry if I took too much space in saying it.  Just the writer in me I suppose. Meneldir 23:17, 22 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Lore can be made up for anything. Forest trolls wouldn't have to use the same old abilities; especially with the emission of any distinctly voodoo abilities in the Darkspear racials. -- 10:18, 25 January 2008 (UTC)


 * *sob* You took the words right out of my mouth, Meneldir, High Elves are a MUST! I would change my Blood Elf to a High Elf if I could, but i can't sadly. Their main forces, i thought, would be on Theramore though, as they have about half as many humans as high elves there, so maybe they could be on Kalimdor. But then i thought that there were already 2 island races on Kalimdor, so why not make an island near Gilneas or something! Garridan 18:15, 02 February 2008 (UTC)

Retcon: perhaps some cataclysm could make the forest trolls lose many of their tradtional abilities; after all, massive retconning worked with Draenei ;)

Trolls
Shouldnt all types of trolls be in this category Ice, Sand, Dark Troll(altrough i wouldnt include Zalandar, Jungle(the darkspear tribe is an island troll which is too similiar too the jungle troll),steppe troll(because its page makes it look like theyre rumors)) --Ashbear160 22:05, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Be BOLD!!! You can add them yourself, if you can.-- 22:09, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


 * im new at this and dont know exactly what to do--Ashbear160 22:17, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


 * It's easy once you get the hang of it - just copy and paste wikicode from other sections and always preview your changes. -- 11:00, 9 March 2008 (UTC)


 * hmm okay great tip ill do it once i know more factors--Ashbear160 21:32, 9 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't know if the sandfury trolls deserve to be on here because they are only seen in Tanaris and they don't have much of a civilization besides that in Zul'Farrak but can I add them?--Coolperson1 15:02, 19 January 2009


 * Put a trial version of what you want to add here in the talk page. If you don't have enough content, I wouldn't do it, but maybe other folks will think it is good enough after you preview it. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 6:12 PM PST 19 Jan 2009

I love trolls so I might add it.--Centaur77 (talk) 04:22, October 24, 2009 (UTC)

Leper Gnomes?
Does anyone think it would be at all possible to put Leper Gnomes on this (probably as Horde)? Just asking. Bill 19:03, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * You can if you want to. ;) -- 22:55, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


 * leper gnomes i dont think they would fit as theyr not a subspecie rather more like irradiated gnome if a human was on gnomeregan at the time of radiation it would probably turn into a leper human or something, and gnomes are already searching for the cure to the radiation well that what i think at least.--Ashbear160 23:16, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I think I might put them in, then...if anyone is opposed, though, you can feel free to delete or edit it.Bill 00:34, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * They were made their own race in Monster Guide actually.Baggins 04:49, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Fel Orcs
-   - Fel Orcs: Can I add them? There are some pros/cons, so consider it.Bill (talk) 21:27, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Certainlly falls into the scope of this page.Baggins (talk) 21:32, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Might be a good idea to add mag'har, too. In that case.Tweak the Whacked (talk) 21:40, 15 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Mag'har are somewhat diffent in that they are still orcs. They avoided turning green (perhaps due to the red pox), and kept their original eye colors. Infact Beyond the Dark Portal Geyah even claims they are all the same race. Generally speaking this is a case if people want a brown skin, all Blizzard would have to do is add that option to the current orc player options.


 * Fel orcs are drastically different in that they have mutated to the point that their bone structures are different. Demonic horns, spines, etc coming out of their flesh. Its a completely different model.Baggins (talk) 23:32, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

As a character creation option
"Subspecies" or "subrace" can also be included as an option in the character creation, similar to the skin color, that would change the character render model and customization options sightly (for example, an orc that can select orc, fel orc, blackrock orc or mok´nathal) and have specific racial habilities. Dr.M.Ginius (talk) 11:05, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, this could work with several races, but probably not with high elves or leper gnomes, due to the hatred between the races and their relatives. High elves hate blood elves and would never work with the horde unless necessary; and leper gnomes...well, hate everything... especially gnomes!


 * I don't see why you can't choose certain skins for trolls- already you can make them green and blue kinda like forest and ice trolls, and wildhammer dwarves, while not cosy with their Ironforge brothers, could work. Maybe dwarves can get the option to have wildhammer tattoo's in the barber shop.--Blayaden (talk) 18:25, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Half-elves and half-orcs
There are already half-ogres on the page, so what if we could add half-elves and half-orcs? Arator the Redeemer could serve as half-elf picture and Garona as half-orc. What about that? Severin Andrews 21:21, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Arator doesn't have a proper "image", he's just another blood/high elf model, not even kalec is perfect. Actually artwork form of a half-elf would be slightly better, kalec would be an option. As for half-orcs you'd basically have to use artwork. ...or use the full size fan images that the wowwiki, half-orc, and half elves icons are based on.Baggins (talk) 21:27, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Vrykul are not a sub race
Hey, I just noticed that the Vrykul aren't under suggested races, but they're under this subspecies stuff. What makes you guys think that the Vrykul can't be considered a full blooded, new race? I have seen nothing that suggests them being a subrace of any kind, people say it's because they are just an offshot of human, but, in reality, they are what made humans. For example, the Elf hierarchy lists Troll's as their progenitor race, and Troll's are a completely full blooded race, not a Subspecies, so, if Vrykul are progenitors of Humans, that doesn't make them a subspecies. I feel as if Vrykul should be updated/moved to the actual new race page, while Frost Vrykul should be left here. -Lordrayken 15:42, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * If anything humans are an offshoot of vrykul.
 * They look waaay too human, though I'll grant you that they're a good few feet taller, which isn't necessarily good: shrink them down to playable size and you're basically playing a neanderthal. So, in fact because of their progenitor state they belong here along with the Earthen. The trolls you say? Well... look at the trolls, then at the elves. But for some females, there's very little resemblance at all. -- 01:59, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Forest Troll models
Unless Blizzard goes about replacing all forest trolls in games don't remove the model used by the reventusk. To do so gives misleading information that implies that they have a unique model.

Also if they have been updated already, then someone go about updating the screenshots of the reventusk characters then.Baggins (talk) 20:15, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Types of trolls
I have gone to a few websites and on each one there is a troll type missing or one added. I'm wondering if the Sea Trolls do exist in-game, or if there are rumors from blizzard. I think they would be good because the would be able to hold their breath a lot longer (like the undead), but would be the same model, and probaly blue, but so are the darkspear trolls

Also, if i have done anything wrong, forgive me, tell me what they are, never done this before. Lord loss210 (talk) 19:02, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Taunka
I'm not sure if they're considered tauren, or a sub species of tauren, but shouldn't they also be listed on this page? --1201 (talk) 05:40, 4 July 2009 (UTC)