Talk:Rogue builds/Archive01

Untitled
I made a big re-tooling, I'm thinking of creating a boilerplate and applying it to standardize the builds across characters. --Bhodi

Mutilate 2.4 update
The PVE build for mutilate should be updated now that puncturing wounds replaces imp. kidney shot for the cookie cutter pve build. -- Bokeh

Massive Update
I just performed a massive update on this page. There is a lot of opinion mixed in, I admit, but much of it was just fixing bad wowhead links (due to updated talents on that site), and tweaking builds to account for the recent talent changes. I'd love to have a discussion about any of the posted builds, just put your comments in here. I have this talk page on my watchlist now. - Taliafears 16:44, 2 February 2007 (EST)

Bad wowhead link
Could you fix the Seal Fate Dagger - 31/8/12 or 30/8/13 talent build link please? It's wrongly linked to a 31/15/5 build.


 * It's outdated. Looks like a pre-2.0 build. --Voidvector 01:07, 4 February 2007 (EST)
 * I just updated it to read 31/13/7 and gave it imp sap. I'm not sure what the old build was, but the extra points in precision better represent the hybrid nature of the build.  I can only imagine taking initiative or imp. ambush instead, which will help marginally in pvp and not nearly as much as precision in pve.  Also you can focus on +crit gear this way. - Taliafears 10:55, 5 February 2007 (EST)

Sword Spec - 30/2/29 - Burning Crusades Variant
''This spec is the best spec I have had so far. I have tried many specs with daggers and swords. I've been playing for many years now, and know what i am talking about when it comes to sword specs. First thing to know is the best weapons to use. In your main hand you want the biggest damage dealing weapon you can find. Speed in your main hand makes no diffrence since you use sinister strike and eviserate. The damage you will do with these two skills will be greater than if you have a fast weapon in your main hand. In your off hand you want the fastest weapon you can get your hands on so that crippling poison will proc more often when used.''
 * I removed this entry from the page, mainly because it is a simple variant of the seal fate/hemo build. I would, however, like to hear opinions on Sinister Strike vs Hemo in such a build.  Does sinister do more damage in the long run?  More burst damage?  Does the extra energy interfere with a stunlock?  How slow does a sword have to be for hemo's non-normalization to kick in and blow SS away? - Taliafears 08:59, 6 February 2007 (EST)
 * Using sinister strike instead of hemo would indeed mess up a stunlock, you'd run out of energy before generating enough combo points. Hemo is THE stunlock build for a reason. As far as weapon speed, if you're concerned about damage I wouldn't take hemo unless you had a 2.8 to 3.0 speed weapon. Can someone do the math and see how big a difference you'd get w/ those speeds? I don't know the formulas myself. Beaker4251 04:40, 20 March 2007 (PST)

epic 1.4 speed swords
''A pretty typical upgrade to combat swords that includes combat potency. Make sure you find yourself a quick offhand sword (Latro's Shifting Sword, from Black Morass, is the first you'll get), and hold on to it until you get a nice 1.4s epic. '' As of 5/2007(2.1) Latro's is the only 1.4 second melee sword. I'm going to clarify 'quick offhand sword' is referring to 1.5 swords and other quick weapons as well. 23:24, 15 May 2007 (EDT)


 * 2.1 patch. gladiator's slicer, 1.5 speed. :) gonna get it today. alternatively there is the option to take up any 1.3 or 1.4 speed dagger.. but you miss out on swordspec procs. 11:40, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Removed Content
Contact for Combat Rogue #2 build For any questions or any comments: Contact me: Tyriella (Scarshield Legion, EU)

User Opinion
I moved the following addition by Exilelegion to the talk page as it seems to suggest an editors opinion rather than a non-neutral contriubtion to the build page. --Grishmak 17:00, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Regarding multiple edits
After going through a bunch of the builds, I notice that a bunch have unfinished talents and scattered points. I would suggest to those that are looking at rogue builds to go back a ways in the history until before many of the minor edits changing the builds. I find the previous builds to be more complete in talents. Grishmak 03:16, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Swod Spec update.
Changes the sample Sword Spec build to the cookie cutter 19/42/0 build that alot of endgame rogues seem to be using these days. Also, added the 16/45/0 Sword/Fist hybrid that is being experimented on by a few endgame rogues as well.

About the Sword/Fist Build
Where did it go? Many good rogues, far into progression, have been testing this new spec, and it has not been found wanting. --Sadeq 14:01, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

But for Solo...?
I notice lots is said about PvP, PvE groups, PvE raids, but what about solo? I have a rogue that's basically "stuck" at 64 because I don't instance my way to 70, I love the solo quests, and I've tried three or four different PvE builds from this site trying to find one that will keep me alive a majority of the time while solo questing. The closest appears to be Combat Daggers or Combat Swords, but even in these two I spend lots of money on flash powder because I end up in fights where another creature of equal level steps into the middle of the fight and I end up having to vanish just after the first creature dies because I'm about to die myself even after taking a healing potion.

There must be a good solo build I can use, right?

- Rigsid, Feathermoon Server (10/23/07)

SF/Premed took me to 70 on my rogue Mekkanare 06:38, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I have been following the Leveling to 60 Build guide, and it seems to have vanished in the last couple of days (today is January 5, 2008). I just hit 40, when you are supposed to completely respec from an Assassination Cold Blood/Seal Fate build into a Combat Swords Specialization build. Luckily, I found the old guide in the History for the page. Can we get the Leveling Build guide back? I understand that one of the WoWHead Talent Calculator links for it was bad, but the info itself was still very good. (Those are the best leveling guides, in my opinion, when they specify what to take at each level, and when/what to respec, as opposed to just the full ending build.) Or, can we get a level 70 version of it (since the original was based on level 60)?

-- Gnat, Velen

Hemo 11/2x/2x & Weaponspecs
I noticed regular changes under the assumption that all weapon specs + WE outperform DD + Deadliness. Whoever has this misconception: I'm sorry, but not even Sword Specialization compares to Deadliness, though the difference is marginal. The only reason to still take Sword Spec over Deadliness, is the combination with Weapon Expertise. Other Weapon Specializations are not as strong DPS wise as Sword spec, and not strong enough even combined with Weapon Expertise to justify taking them over the Deadliness variant.

Response to "Hemo 11/2x/2x & Weaponspecs" and the frequent changes
The problem is that even the DPS spreadsheet you so heavily rely upon shows that this is not the case with regard to hemo builds and especially your contention of Deadliness > Sword Spec. You wouldn't combine Sword Spec without WE, nor should you spec out of WE for any reason in PvE. You must also consider that the DPS Spreadsheet from (http://rogue.raidcal.com) has always incorrectly calculated Hemo build DPS. It even currently calculates the debuff DPS incorrectly. Simple division can show us this.

Some of the builds are senseless and have bad talenting. You have 1 build that doesn't even have talents for your primary attack (no imp SS nor hemo).

The builds posted here should be the commonly considered cookie-cutter builds and not personal builds, nor preferences. Filler talents can always be noted and should be, but overall the builds you've posted lack logic for the areas they are supposed to address, or they have bad theorycraft (read incorrect theorycraft) behind them.

Builds are cookie-cutter for a reason, people have theorycrafted them and tested them to be superior. Some are theorycrafted as superior, but have ended up failing in reality because of bugs (ie. 11/28/22). No offense, but I've left your builds up, but the commentary is correct and should be there if you are going to post non-cookie-cutter builds that are inferior. The intention of this page should be to have a resource for people to either: 1) Pull a proper Cookie-cutter build 2) Take a build and morph it to what they want, even if it is inferior. That inferiority is for them and who they team with to deal with.

It shouldn't be a compilation of every Tom, Dick and Harry's personal build.

We should have a HARP build noted as it is still used. Note I didn't touch your ShadowStep Swords build. Why? It is cookie-cutter for Arena. I will continue to update this page as I've done for months now to ensure proper builds are posted. Heck, we could have a ton of builds, but would that truly help the folks that are, perhaps, more uninformed that you? Ponder that before you change it again. Hoochfly 00:35, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * 1) The Shadowstep builds are not mine, but I'd even always leave at least one of them there anyway even if Shadowstep was the least viable build anywhere, just so people do know of the possibilities.
 * 2) hemo-hybrid is a cookie cutter PvE build, not liking it is another matter, but post or link the factual data proving your (actually flawed) assumptions instead of only bashing it. The same could be said for many other comments you made on other builds by the way. I agree that we don't want a hundred and ten different builds posted here, but in case of any discussion: do provide factual data instead of statements that lead back to uninformed opinions.
 * In the case of the hybrid-hemo build for example, you might want to try out that build in standard Kara gear (which is normal for people starting on Gruul/Magtheridon/SSC) instead of S3 or T6 equipment. There is a useful rogue on the EJ forums as well named Valujin, who knows a lot about hemo and combat builds alike (and he prefers combat if I remember right), though he only does his tests using his own gear and is also notoriously forgetting to include hemo-debuff estimates in his figures (He hates Shadowstep, so in those builds he tends to forget them). But look up the figures he found, they can be real eye-openers.


 * And yes, we should have a HARP build, about 8% of the top-rogues still use it effectively. But I leave that to a PvP-er to sort out.-- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by . 18:01, 22 January 2008

Response to Above
Interesting. I don't believe that I've ever seen a cookie cutter build for combat hemo as 11/21/29. I agree the standard was 11/28/22 and that all math I've seen, including the spreadsheet, show that 5 in sword spec is superior to 2 in DD. Further, a 8% increase in AP is not going to cover a near 5% dps loss from Sword Spec and a 2.5% loss from WEx. This is quite easy to see as an 8% increase in AP @ 1850 AP would yield only about a 25 DPS increase.

As an example, a rogue in Kara gear would lose 2% DPS with this deadliness over 5 in Sword Spec and WE. I used Kara gear primarily with badge boots, bracers and trinket and a WSC. The 11/21/29 build vs Combat would yield a near 10% DPS loss. I am basing all of this on the spreadsheet that Ashera seems to be using as the base of his argument that I linked above.

I also find it interesting that while Ashera calls for a link, he has yet to post any links himself. I don't know why he is quoting Valujin from the Roguecraft 101 thread. He would disagree with you Ashera (http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t16940-roguecraft_101_a/), as direct from the thread he states, the same things that I said about hemo with regard to 2.3.2:

Patch 2.3.2. Changes

In patch 2.3.2, everyone's favorite flavor of the month ability, Hemorrhage, has received several changes. The weapon damage multiplier on the ability has been reduced from 125% to 110%. However, the debuff damage has been increased to 42 per charge from 36. Additionally, the Sinister Calling talent in subtlety was changed to add an additional 2% to the weapon damage multipliers of Hemorrhage and Backstab per talent point.

These changes obviously shift the relative weighting of any build involving Hemorrhage or Sinister Calling. Here's an up-to-date list of build rankings (ranked by personal DPS only) for patch 2.3.2:

1) Combat swords / Combat fist+sword (--)

2) Combat mace+sword / Combat fists (-1%)

3) Combat daggers / Combat maces (-3%)

4) Hemo+swords (-5%) 11/28/22

5) Hemo+fists (-7%)

6) Hemo+Deadliness (swords) / Hemo+maces (-8%) 11/21/29

7) Combat Mutilate (-?%)

8) Shadowstep (-12%)

The above does focus on personal DPS rather than raid DPS, but the DPS increase discussed overall in all threads (especially the thread that I'll discuss in a moment) is built around 11/28/22 which was included and then changed by Ashera in the standard builds to his 11/21/29 build. Now, the raid damage increase should be equal, the loss in personal DPS is much greater with 11/21/29 as noted by Vulajin in his math and testing and by the DPS spreadsheet.

While the point has been debated regarding 2 in DD or 5 in Sword Spec, even the DPS spreadsheet that Ashera is using as his base of argument shows the difference to be worse or even (depending on gear) with 5 in sword spec. If I recall correctly, this was noted in the build notes initally, that this was an option (I could be wrong though). It also shows that this 11/21/29 build may have been an example, but by no means was this ever considered a cookie-cutter build, but more a test of different specs. This build failed in all aspects.

Ashera also noted the thread by Ichichop, “The Combat vs Hemo Point of Inflection” (http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t14321-rogue_combat_vs_hemo_point_inflection/). This thread was started on 7.13.07 and discussed the cookie cutter that you say is inferior, 11/28/22.

This thread initially discussed hemo prior to 2.3 and that with enough AP (no surprise there) that could be gained by T6 gear this could compete with combat builds. It was later found that this was in-fact not the case and Ichichop specced back to combat. This was using 11/28/22 prior to normalization and change to hemo damage formula. It later talks about 11/28/22 as a build for 2.3 and that theoretically it should do more raid damage than combat. As I stated earlier, it never did because charges were bugged.

With reduced damage in 2.3.2 it mathematically did not work anymore, thus the reason it was abandoned by many, like me, that had specced it because of the potential in 2.3. Even the spreadsheet is telling us this. Vulajin also states later in the thread that when he plugs these builds into the spreadsheet he gets certain numbers, but also mentions a poor rotation of SnD to Rupture for his tests for non-dagger builds. This thread also talks about how borked the spreadsheet is, and always has been with regard to hemo builds. You can argue all you wish, but your opinion is not based on any fact other than the spreadsheet and the things you reference contradict you, Ashera.

Bottomline, you've called for links and failed to provide anything of substance. This threads you claimed support you, don't exactly do that. The spreadsheet that you claims supports you, doesn't do that. I've been running hemo math for nearly 2 years now and can tell you that from 60-70 much has changed.

I have a problem with your grasp of class mechanics as noted here. (http://www.wowwiki.com/User_talk:Ashera) I'd suggest understanding simple things like a PPM vs a percentage based proc prior to trying to discuss things, as nothing you've discussed is based on any real math or substance beyond bits and pieces from threads that ultimately don't help your POV nor did you link them.

I also find it appalling that you have the audacity to claim vandalism when you made changes yourself to these builds with not one word of mention as to why or any support for your changes, but when someone makes a change to your precious build you flip out about it.

When you did post about it in "Hemo 11/2x/2x & Weaponspecs", you were incorrect even based on your spreadsheet and in your support threads that you failed to link while claiming that others need to post links to counter your opinion. Hypocrite much? - Hoochfly 05:34, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * 1) Combat swords / Combat fist+sword (--)


 * 2) Combat mace+sword / Combat fists (-1%)


 * 3) Combat daggers / Combat maces (-3%)


 * 4) Hemo+swords (-5%) 11/28/22


 * 5) Hemo+fists (-7%)


 * 6) Hemo+Deadliness (swords) / Hemo+maces (-8%) 11/21/29


 * 7) Combat Mutilate (-?%)


 * 8) Shadowstep (-12%)


 * As a note on these numbers: they are made using Valujin's current equipment (he always makes them based on his own SSC grade equipment, he made a disclamer about that) and he doesn't include the raid debuff estimates (didn't I mention that before?). Do you now have an idea how these compare with the debuff included? No, I doubt that. Did you even bother activating the raid debuff estimate instead of using the hemo option in raid buffs? No, I doubt that as well. Ashera 17:38, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * This is it? That's your response.  I don't think you read this in it's entirety because I addressed this.  See above.  You seem to think I don't believe there should be a link to a Tri-spec build.  This is about your build that you are trying to assert is superior, when it isn't.  Read again.Hoochfly 17:54, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * First of all, I didn't say 11/28/22 is inferior, that was YOU posting that, long before I even updated it to the 11/27/23 variant, which happens to be better, though it is by no more then about 0.1%. The "additions" I made before that were removal of YOUR NOPV comments, including an edit tag referring to removal of vandalism, since THAT is what you have been doing, littering this page with your personal feelings instead of any FACTS. Then there is the FACT that for non-sword rogues wanting a hemo-hybrid build, 11/21/29 outperforms 11/28/22 by a large margin, which can be found in that same point of infliction thread.
 * And no, I do know for a fact that the hemo-trispec is not superior, for the simple reason that it does NOT scale as good as Combat Sword specs, and because personal DPS is practically always behind that of a combat build, but there's another failure on your account, since that much has also been discovered before 2.3.2 even went live. Ashera 19:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * 11/28/22 is inferior to combat as you clearly stated in your 2nd paragraph, and 11/27/23 is less or equal to 11/28/22. Let's talk about the builds regarding non-swords.  Using the spreadsheet that you are relying upon again, there is zero difference between 11/28/22 with fist spec vs 11/21/29.  11/21/29 vs 11/27/23 with 4 in fist spec shows 11/27/23 actually being better by about 1%.  I also imported you into the spreadsheet and compared the 2 builds.  11/28/22 vs 11/21/29 and they were equal.  I then compared 11/21/29 to 11/27/23 for you and 11/27/23 was just over 1% better.


 * So the statement of, "Then there is the FACT that for non-sword rogues wanting a hemo-hybrid build, 11/21/29 outperforms 11/28/22 by a large margin", is false, and the verbiage in the description of your build is false. But again, this spreadsheet has always had issues with hemo, so /shrug. Guess you have a choice to make: Is it accurate and your statements are inaccurate, or is the spreadsheet inaccurate and you need to come up with something tangible to make your point.


 * I haven't vandalized anything. You deleted builds that have been there for months (ie. 11/28/22) and supplanted it with your build with no comments.  Again, your hypocrisy here is now more clear.  I only put the POV comments on yesterday as you kept replacing the original builds with your build.  That was my attempt to come to a detente with you.  Fine, you can have your build up and I'll put the correct Tri-spec hemo build, but with comments.  We all knew that the tri-spec build was going to be awful in 2.3.2.  The problem here is that only the changes that came with 2.3.2 made it worse.  The build during 2.3 was theoretically superior to combat as mathematically, the raid damage increase was greater than personal DPS lost where that isn't the case anymore.  I also discussed that above.  I also liked the fact that you haven't pointed to a post or thread yourself or quoted directly so we can scrutinize it. -- Hoochfly 21:19, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Response to Hoochfly's comments and this issue in general
Wow, I noticed this going on from a reference on the Wow rogue forums and thought I'd check it out. I would agree with Hoochfly in this case. Seemingly there are quite a few builds that, I believe, the rogue community would not say are cookie-cutter and some are just plain bad. I saw some of the NPOV comment made by Hoochfly and while I don't think they were appropriately placed, some were accurrate. I will go through a few that I believe should be removed, I'll just go down the list:

1) Mutilate 43.0.18 This build is poorly, but together. I understand the points made about Elusivness and arena matches, but the other choice made (ie. Master Poisoner and Imp Poison over Vile poison while skipping EA and Ruthlessness) are equally as bad. I would suggest we edit the 41.0.20 spec to be more appropriate.

2) Combat Hemo Disasterbacle I believe as I think most would that the standard has been (as noted by Hoochfly when discussing the Ichichop thread) 11.28.22. I don't see why comments can't be made regarding 11.27.23 as it has also been considered at least a close, close option to 11.28.22.  Until this whole thing, I've never seen 11.21.29 considered a cookie-cutter build and frankly can see from the Valujin thread that it is pooer and I too plugged this info with Kara gear and my T5 gear into the spreadsheet and got lesser results.

While I agree with Ashera that the option should be present, I don't think it has to be this confusing. This is not to say, at least I don't think so, that Hoochfly is saying to nix it all together, but that all info should be put into the description of the build.

So, my vote would be for 11.28.22 to be shown with comments about 11.27.23

3) Combat Maces/Sub I say Hoochfly's comments on this one and while they shouldn't have gone there, he was right. This is a very poor variant of a HARP build and it lacks speccing for a primary attack, either Improved Sinister Strike or Hemo.  It should be adjusted.

4) Shadowstep Swords (Combat) This too is a weak build and poorly theorized. If it is an arena build, you wouldn't take Endurance, nor would you take IMP SS and Hemo.  This seems to be the opposite issue of Combat Maces/Sub.  This one could be fixed, but I would say that the common arena build is more similar to the Shadowstep Swords build noted.  Malice is a pre-req when dealing with resilience, even if it means gimping your mobility and not having Improved Sprint.

These are my thoughts, but after looking at everything last night and bit more this morning, I've noticed that Ashera seems to be fighting to keep what appears to be his build on this list rather than being concerned about cookie-cutter builds. Hypocrite might be a bit harsh, but I can see where that may come from in this case. :) Dom1nate 15:52, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for another voice. Hopefully some more folks will comment and we can figure out where to go with this article. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 12:48 PM PST 23 Jan 2008


 * Only responding to the Hemo-hybrid part, since there is less to say for the other builds. They are options, and used, but I simply do not care too much for PvP builds myself, and feel no need to add/comment on them.


 * 2) Combat Hemo Disasterbacle I believe as I think most would that the standard has been (as noted by Hoochfly when discussing the Ichichop thread) 11.28.22. I don't see why comments can't be made regarding 11.27.23 as it has also been considered at least a close, close option to 11.28.22. Until this whole thing, I've never seen 11.21.29 considered a cookie-cutter build and frankly can see from the Valujin thread that it is pooer and I too plugged this info with Kara gear and my T5 gear into the spreadsheet and got lesser results.
 * 11/21/29 is not the cookie cutter hemo-hybrid as in "best hemo spec possible". That is 11/28/22 or 11/27/23, whichever someone prefers. I did not post 11/21/29 under a new header either by the way, that was Hoochfly wanting to seperate the two variants (while the difference is actually marginal, the two combined are known as 11/2x/2x specs). However, the 11/28/22 build has a weapon requirement: dual swords. For rogues *not* wanting to dual wield swords for whatever reason (they may have Maces for Arena instead, or took fists because they look cooler), 11/21/29 has been established the best hemo-hybrid alternative, instead of speccing fist or mace spec. There have even been some pages considering 11/20/30, but that was discarded because it may be better when single targetting, 11/21/29 with Bladeflurry would definitely perform better because of adds and trashmobs. And no, it's not far behind 11/28/22. It doesn't outperform it, but for the rogues with the right gear, who do not have good swords but do have good other weapons, it's the best options.
 * http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t19926-rogue_dps_spreadsheet/p4/#post611440 is a good place to comment if you wish for improvements on the spreadsheet, there are few rogues without it these days. Questions regarding the spreadsheet and its results are welcomed there as well.
 * http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t16940-roguecraft_101_a/p44/#post609251 is the latest post where tri-spec hemo has been questioned and Aldriana helpfully explaining what's up, including the T5/T6 break-even point. Ashera 20:56, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I put 2 variants because you replaced the original with yours.


 * The problem with that post by Aldriana is completely opinion and again falls back to the spreadsheet. See above, I've run you through the spreadsheet with fists and I ran it with me with fists.  See the results above.  Your statements are seeming to contradict now.  You stated above that, "there is the FACT that for non-sword rogues wanting a hemo-hybrid build, 11/21/29 outperforms 11/28/22 by a large margin," but now you say, "And no, it's not far behind 11/28/22. It doesn't outperform it, but for the rogues with the right gear, who do not have good swords but do have good other weapons, it's the best options."


 * See the issue there, you're waffling and confusing things. -- Hoochfly 21:29, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
 * For the stupid amongst us: 11/21/29 doesn't outperform 11/28/22 sword variant. However, 11/21/29 with fists does outperform 11/28/22 with fists and fist spec. 11/21/29 with maces does outperform 11/28/22 with maces. 1 single point in deadliness outperforms 1 point in any weapon specialization. The thing is that Sword Specialization combined with Weapon Expertise is slightly stronger then Deadliness combined with Dirty Deeds. The other weapon specializations aren't as strong as Sword Spec to compensate for this difference, not even with Weapon Expertise combined. Ashera 21:47, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The irony here is you calling me stupid with your lack of reading comprehension. Look above read, take it all in.  I used fists in the spreadsheet that you are relying upon.  I used you in the spreadsheet.  Read, then respond.  The method of your proof is working against you. -- Hoochfly 21:55, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * You already proved you are a smart boy, and were able to look up my armoury. I'm sure you can look it up again and use that gear instead and redo your leet spreadsheet skills? If you still don't see how hemo-hybrid is alive and kicking, then your skills at using said spreadsheet properly are definitely lacking. And though the build is somewhat gear dependant, it is not as gear dependant as requiring specifically those items. Both rogues coming out of heroics and rogues running SSC rogues have seen the same results.


 * Oh, and your "proof" is still no more then saying you used that spreadsheet, I honestly doubt you did, seeing there have never been any proper results posted by you. All you do is say "I tried and can't see it therefore it's not there". Now where are your results?
 * I've uploaded my version here: Ashera's Gear and Talents in standard spready, but for those worried about virusses and stuff (which I find very reasonable), here's my armoury instead: WoW Armory
 * Normal boots are Edgewalker Longboots, normal 2nd trinket is Mark of Conquest in case my old flight gear still shows up.Ashera 22:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * How about I say I used the spreadsheet? I am sure that Hoochfly just used the import feature on the spreadsheet to bring your information in.  I did the same thing and found that he is right.  You said there were large difference and I don't see any that exist.  Places where Hoochfly said there was no difference, I see a .05% improvment when changing your spec to 11.28.22 and .59% improvment when changing to 11.27.23.  I would agree that this = no difference as there is no way that anyone could feasibly be able to see a .41% difference in DPS (especially in your case because that is a 7 DPS increase) because of all the variables that exist.  So, in your case there really is no difference and your claim that 11.29.21 out-performing 11.28.22 by a large margin is indeed false, even for you.


 * Couple of other things:
 * 1) You are using a past version of the sheet. For someone so hung up on it, I would think you would have had the most current.
 * 2) I downloaded your sheet. You have a lot of buffs on there that you wouldn't normally have in a Kara run.  Possible, but definitely a stretch in a couple of cases.  Not enough to worry about, but that should be mentioned.
 * 3) I used the latest sheet and imported me, but equipped myself with S2 MH/OH Fists and changed nothing else. I specced 11.28.22 and set that as a baseline.  I then specced 11.27.23 and yielded a .47% increase in DPS (6 DPS).  I then specced 11.21.29 and found there to only be a .28% increase (4 DPS) over 11.28.22.  Again, I have to side with Hoochfly in that these are negligible difference and are by no means a "large margin" greater than 11.28.22 and it fell short of 11.27.23


 * In summary, I find it odd that you are attacking Hoochfly verbally now. Yes, he called you a hypocrite, but that is appearing to be somewhat accurate based on some of your comments.  You also have been incorrect in what you've stated and haven't really shown anything to support your claim other than an opinion post on EJ that pointed us back to the spreadsheet.  The spreadsheet isn't helping your claim and in fact appears to be supporting Hoochfly's inital claim of obsolescence as you've already stated that it all these builds do less DPS than combat in total.


 * WE now have 2 people stating similar numbers while using the spreadsheet and you are coming up differently. I'd have to say it is perhaps you that could be using it incorrectly. :)  Dom1nate 22:53, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your trust in me not spreading malicious programs :)
 * I would like to ask you to do one more thing: "save DPS", switch to comparable swords (so S1 swords for S1 fists, etc.), and change the spec to a standard Combat Sword spec. Is the hemo hybrid as "obsolete since 2.3.2" as Hoochfly claims it to be? Or is it still comparable enough for people to give it a go? Ashera 23:26, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Not a problem, it was clear that it wasn't malicious. There is a difference and to be clear from all discussion I have had or read, the spreadsheet has problems with hemo vs. combat comparisons.  I did as you asked though and it is telling me there is a negative 6% DPS difference for me and a negative 2.75% DPS difference for you (you have really high AP because of your PS set).  I would agree that it is obsolete vs combat.


 * I still hold as I did above that obsolescence (sp) should be mentioned, but there is no reason not to post the builds as I noted above. :)  Dom1nate 23:45, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, Dom1nate seems to have confirmed my findings. Most likely there were small difference from buff choices(?).  I used 2.3.2.9 for my comparisons, imported you into it and compared from there.  Even your sheet you uploaded shows no difference (Dom1nate is correct that I did say there was no difference when they may have been a miniscule improvement) between the builds.  No greater than 6 DPS either way.  There is no way to test for this in game because of variables (buffs, situations, group makeup, etc) that can cause swings in DPS.  I can pretty much guarantee that you aren't putting out near 1200 DPS in your gear.  I know I don't put out as much as my "Buffed DPS", no one does as it is theoretical and would require perfect proc timing and non-static buff usage (drums of batter, bloodlust, etc).


 * I am concerned that you aren't reading these things in their entirety because you stated that I didn't post results. I posted the differences above.  You need to pay attention better.


 * I don't know what to tell you, but there isn't a "large difference" in DPS. There isn't any difference whatsoever.  Considering you've already conceeded that none of these builds are as effective as combat, I don't really know what there is left to discuss here.  You've tried to call me a liar as I didn't post the spreadsheet.  We've all downloaded it.  I don't know how you're using it to see this "large difference", but 2 people are telling you that there isn't any difference.


 * Edit: Ashera, you realize that your Riding Crop and Mithril Spurs don't stack, right? If you didn't, now you know. -- Hoochfly 23:12, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

2/4/08 Changes by Dom1nate
I cleaned up the builds page by combining some builds as discussed above. I also removed a couple that were bad builds overall and replaced a couple others that had some nonsensical talent choices (ie. Imp SS and Hemo).

0.33.28 was replaced by AR/Prep as it was just a bad version of it with no IMP SS or Hemo chosen and was just a poor spec overall.

Removed SF/Maces as it too was all over the place and excluded EA and Vile poisons which is a no-no for PvP with that much spent in Assassination.

As discussed above, I've combined the Tri-spec Hemo builds into one. Started with the original, but all 3 specs were noted with some of the conversation points from above.

Under daggers, I combined a couple of the Mutilate builds, but discussed filler talent options. Some just needed veribage updating because of talent changes.

Cowlinator also made a nice addition with the PvP or PvE designation that I believe will be helpful for people sorting through builds. Dom1nate 17:26, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Combat Daggers -- Ruthlessness vs. Lethality
The current combat daggers build has 3/3 Ruthlessness and 3/5 Lethality, instead of 2/3 and 4/5 respectively. By any informed rogue's opinion and by the facts presented through statistical analysis of rogue cycles (namely, using the dps spreadsheet), Ruthlessness is never better than Lethality. I don't know where Hoochfly gets the notion that it's the other way around.

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t14304-rogue_dps_spreadsheet/

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t16940-roguecraft_101_a/

http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html;jsessionid=A4231422D1F5E2899BB2BABEC95CF4F9.app03_02?topicId=262316532&sid=1

http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html;jsessionid=B031332428D0FB07A4927E324BC31895.app03_03?topicId=292129749&sid=1#15

I tried my hardest to find some source for the misconception that Ruthlessness > Lethality on google, the wow rogue forums, or EJ, but could not.

r3d3 00:42, 12 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree...I see I made the change...I (ie. my roommate) made the change as I left the connection open. The difference is minute, but still should be in favor of lethality for combat daggers and 50%+ crit of imp BS.  I am fixing now and my apologies.  I will log off in the future. - Hoochfly 04:59, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Mutilate in 2.4
Blizzard has stated that in 2.4 mutilate will benefit from what was previously improved backstab (and only benefited backstab).


 * IMO this should change the way mutilate rogues spec and should be noted with new 2.4 PVE/PVP builds.

The lvling spec
IMO the Imp. Eviscerate should either be prioritized for the lvl 40 respecc, or the respecc pushed back to 43 or 45. I had serious DPS setback @ 40, even if I upgraded weaponry at that time, DPS rose again by leaps and bounds when Imp. Ev. was back in.

Shadowstep Swords Update
Recent theorycraft and discussion has pushed the Shadowstep build in slightly new directions. The updated build reflects those discussions on the wow rogue forums and EJ.

Removed Nub Dagger Build
Removed a build advocating SS with daggers. It was basically, a Combat swords build with dagger spec. To the guy that posted this build. If you want to SS from the front (as if there were a good reason to do that), or SS for any reason, don't use daggers. You need to learn about normalized weapon damage before posting something like that. If you understood it, you would never have come up with that idea, nor have posted it.

Here is the brutal build for posterity:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0ebRxZMxVbRE00bGRt

Wow this is horrible.

What the hell? so many useless talents in place of good ones. Was this created as a joke or to confuse less experienced players or something?

Hemo PvE
Ok, i'm not sure if this should be here, but i saw something similar on the mage's equivalent page. Does anyone know of any good PVE Hemo builds? and how much dps i could prepare to lose? i've rather liked sub and hemo, so i thought if i could i'd keep it. I'm not in kara level gear yet, but i hope to get some soon, and i'm trying to get slow weapons, so i'm getting perhaps more damage out of a hemo than a sinister strike Warden Shadowsong (talk) 13:25, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

---The only really acceptable build with hemo for pve is Tri-spec which is noted on the buids page. Speed of weapon doesn't matter, look at average damage of the weapon. You will not get more damage out of a tri-spec hemo than you would a SS. When you consider the talented SS of a combat build, there is not contest. Hoochfly (talk) 02:39, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

3.0.2 revamp
I've made a start to revamp the page, bearing in mind that WLK is only a month away. Perhaps now that there is another class that can dual wield should be highlighted once more is known about how much hit is required by Death Knights. Leveling with swords may be slower now that sword spec is so deep into combat tree and close quarter combat only requires 15 points to max it. In my opinion it is crucial to spend talent points getting to the new highest tiers of Killing Spree, Shadow Dance and Hunger for Build as the three prerequisites for all of them are extremely potent.

3.0.2 Lvl 70 Shadowstep Swords - PVP
This is my new hemo shadowstep swords build -- I don't know if others agree but I figure it'd be better than nothing to put something up there at least: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0xZ0xZe0fdhhddizA0ot

Also, I independently came up with almost the same exact Combat Swords PVE build that is listed, so thumbs up to that. Sladevi (talk) 17:47, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

3.0.2 Mutilate Addition
I added the Cut to the Chase information as well as the Hunger For Blood as they are an integral part of the new tree builds for Assasination specs. I updated the name to Mutilate (Assasination) because it's not just for raiders. Also added PvE to it because I would not recommend this spec for PvP. 13:23, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Also checked each build and made sure that they used all the lvl 70 Talent points and added the patch number to the front of each suggested build to show latest patch tested on. (None of these could work prior to 3.0.2 and no other patch has come out yet.)

=D

Removed the "Out of Date" tags. 14:21, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

3.0.2 Combat Daggers PvE
I noticed that the link provided for this build is not a valid combat daggers build since it does not have Improved Backstab or Opportunity. Maybe we could use something like 8/51/2.

3.0.2 alternate Mutilate + Poisoning with Crit focus
I added this as I was playing around with various builds and find it to be a good mix of survivability and damage potential... both burst (Puncturing Wounds, Seal Fate+Envenom) and sustained damage through successful poison application (aided when necessary by Shiv) and Mutilate. This is NOT a Raiding build, it has NOT been successfully tested in Raids... there are plenty of those... I'm using this to level, and have found thus far to be taking a little less damage overall than the 15/51/5 combat sword spec I previously used. This build does not rely HEAVILY on poison application, but it is a definite advantage, such that poison-immune mobs will be more bothersome to deal with, hence the stun There aren't many mobs that are immune to stun AND poison, unless you're in a raid... in that case, you probably won't be specc'd this way anyway. This build does not include the typical bottom tier Assassination talents CttC, TtT or HFB as they seem to have more application in Raids and I find did not benefit overall as much as placing the points in more beneficial areas for the solo player.

Meant to leave comment
I meant to leave a comment. The build I made is similar to Kelandar but it drops the three points in turn the tables and puts them into close quarter combat. This is trading off a chance of 6% (granted it will usually be proc'd in raids) on combo move crits for a 3% crit chance on all attacks. This increase means more energy regen from white attacks as well as special abilities and finishing moves and still gives the combos a 3% crit increase... so it effectively only reduces combo move crits by 3% and is active at all times.