Talk:Illidan's forces

Main language
Why would "Darnassian" be their main language?Baggins 20:00, 28 April 2007 (EDT)


 * Only because that's what Illidan himself would speak. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 20:03, 28 April 2007 (EDT)

Illidan's known languages are Darnassian and Common, and likely Eredun. Although so far all members of the Illidari seem to say things seem in the "main language" of the races that fight them(that is assumed automatic Common or automatic Orcish)...Baggins 20:10, 28 April 2007 (EDT)


 * So, "Unknown," or "Not applicable"? -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 01:17, 29 April 2007 (EDT)


 * Not Applicable, or at least possibly move all the "secondary" into "main" until we find out more?Baggins 13:20, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

It's not in any way official, but I would think they speak Eredun as a main language, if they have one. -- XAVIUS  ( This Clockwork Universe ) 17:39, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Languages
Why is it Thalassian, shouldnt it be Sin'sorei or whatever its called? Since theyre Bluds not High Elves. (Mr.X8 03:48, 26 May 2007 (UTC))


 * Blood elf. Thalassian is the language of the blood elves. Pzychotix 05:17, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Crest
While the picture now in the infobox is good. I would like to point out that around their encampments they display a crest that resembels the model of the Netherwing Defender's Shield. A good pic of the sheild could be added.-- 19:52, 13 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Rather, a good pic of the crest.-- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 20:44, 13 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok, smart you are. I though a MV image would give it the illution of looking like the racials. I'll try to get a good screenshot.-- 21:20, 13 July 2007 (UTC)


 * It is more of a banner...-- 23:42, 13 July 2007 (UTC)



Satyrs
What about the satyrs why didn't you include them since you find quite a few in Shadowmoon?I don't think it's important to say the exact reason for their allegiance since you can't really find out. -Marakanis


 * What about them? They are in the race box. As for why they are there play the WCIII TFT night elf campain first couple missions. They join illidan, and he must have, like the demon hunters, brought some to Outland.-- 00:29, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

The Ashtongue Tribe
Don't they serve Illidan's wishes because Akama commands, as Illidan controls his soul in the Black Temple (Shade of Akama).

Hence, the Broken of the Ashtongue tribe aren't really Illidari, just serve Illidan because Illidan controls Akama.

((I'm having problem's phrasing this, you might see - They aren't Loyal Illidari, they only obey him because Illidan controls Akama - Also, on this Note, Kael'Thas isn't Illidari, nor are the Blood Elves that serve him - He serves the Legion))

Illidari
The impression I got while I was playing was that the Illidari was a small faction inside Illidan's forces, an elite guard if you will. Basically the Illidari are part of his forces, but not all of his forces are Illidari. Not name of all of his forces. This should be clarified better.Baggins 08:22, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

What exactly do you mean ?The illidari include ALL of Illidan's servitors (at least that's what i understood from the quests anyway) not just a small faction ........are you refering to factions that are completely under Illidan's control without having a leader of their own?Well if that's the case then Akama and Kael aren't illidari ,that would make only some fel orcs and the demons true Illidari and blood elves that are more loyal to Illidan then Kael (like the Crimson Sigil)(Marakanis)

I just saw that someine added that only those that aren't closer to one of Illidan's lieutanents are TRUE Illidari.Where did u get that ?from the game?well in the game i personally got the ideea that ALL his servitors (Vash,Kael,Akama) are illidari.If you are thinking this because you see only in Shadowmoon Illidari Mobs then you are pretty wrong.The ones in Shadowmoon are the ones that are a LITTLE more close to Illidan because he trusts them more since they are closer to him (thus better controling them) but they aren't much different from the rest of them.I mean Vash for example appears pretty loyal to Illidan ,and her forces are loyal to her=) her forces are loyal to him as well ...........well something like that anyway(sorry if i was a little confusing)(Marakanis)


 * I added it based on Baggins' IRC comments and the above post. I think it is slightly incorrect though. I was just helping.-- 14:23, 3 September 2007 (UTC)


 * By all means instead of referring to the quests, link the quests. Citation people. Don't make claims unless you cite them first. That's why I haven't touched the article other than to put teh source informaiton needed template. The quests I ran into that mentioned "Illidari" gave me the impression that it was only a commanding elite guard, something akin to SS for example, not the entire forces under Illidan. But if there are quests that say otherwise, let us know. Don't tell us what you think is the case, show us what you think ist he case is the truth. I won't edit it based on my impressions, unless find the quests, and use them to back my position first. Remember without citations and sources, that prove your position, anything written can be interpreted as opinion.Baggins 22:14, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I tryed to find them but can't find em .Oh well let me ask you something where did you get the impression that the Illidari are only an elite guard?Did you get the ideea from a quest in Shadowmoon Valley which at the end you get a reward (something with Illidari Bane)?I'm asking this because i saw many players come to that conclusion because of this quest chain,also Illidari is a title being carried mostly by demons because they don't have any other leader then Illidan,like the naga or blood elves have .Anyway Illidari is a title carried by some fel orcs and blood eles but I personally think it's because they are more involved in Illidan's plans and use the title to make it more believeble.Also i saw a quest that at the discriptions sais that ALL of Illidan's lieutanents (and theiur armies)are Illidari i just can't find it and don't remember where i saw it.........oh well have it your way(Marakanis)

Since the page will remain the same way concerning the Illidari until further notice how about we include the Crimson Sigil in the page since they seem to be in command of the Illidari outside the Black Temple?We could clasify them as an elite group among the 'true' Illidari (since you say the Illidari are only the ones close to Illidan)(Marakanis)

Oh and what quests made you to think this wat BTW ,since you didn't include them anywhere,i would really like to know(Marakanis)


 * Sorry I don't remember exact name or details of the quest I got the idea, wish I could help.Baggins 18:16, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Well I don't remember the quests that could prove you wrong either.If neither of us don't have any back-up then why don't we reverse to the first theory.That every servitor of his is Illidari and that only some more loyal cary Illidari as a title(Marakanis)
 * As long as there are no citations, the citation template remains in effect.Baggins 10:56, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


 * It seems with the exception of the Illidari Taskmaster fiends found in Hellfire Penninsula, that bulk of NPCs specifically called Illidari are found in Shadowmoon Valley, or the Black Temple. The list of quests are there too. I'll read over them later. Another good symbol of who is "illidari" is by who ever wears teh Illidari tabards.Baggins 11:01, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

The fel orcs in Hellfire Citadel sometimes yell "Lok'tar Illidari!", so they probably think of themselves as Illidari. --Hurax 14:30, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


 * That would mean, approximately, "Victory for the Illidari", which could be interpreted several ways. Like you said it oculd mean they think of themselves as Illidari (we also know they think of themselves as the "true Horde"). It could also mean victory for their allies and leaders. Context is fairly unclear.Baggins 18:28, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Well ok your making sense but still if only his close legions are Illidari then Kael's blood elves,Kargath's fel orcs or Vash's naga are what?I would say only Illidan's closer armies carrry the title only not that only they are true Illidari,in fact the quests in Shadowmoon can be interpreted in other ways too.So what is your opinion so we can close the chapter?(Marakanis)


 * "Well ok your making sense but still if only his close legions are Illidari then Kael's blood elves,Kargath's fel orcs or Vash's naga are what?"


 * Well in Warcraft III, the Naga faction was just called, Illidan's Naga (which is the term used in WoW too it seems. They have their own symbol, different than illidari symbol), and if there were two sets of forces, occasionally one was called Naga Strikeforce or something like that. Illidan's Satyr forces were called, Illidan's Servitors. The blood elves were just called Blood Elves I think, or Illidan's Blood Elves. The fel orcs in Hellfire seem to call themselves the "true Horde".


 * It also depends on the individual npcs, some fel orcs, blood elves, and naga definitely wear the "illidari" tabard, denoting they are Illidari. Others don't. I seem to recall you don't really see that tabard and banners except in Shadowmoon Valley. Elsewhere the blood elves, naga, and fel orcs have their own unique tabards and/or banners.Baggins 02:11, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

You have a point but anyway i would say it's matter of point of view aswell but anyway if only the shadoemoon npc's are true Illidari then what'sthe name of his WHOLE Faction?Actually i would say they are only reprenzetatives of Illidan's Lieutanents,after all those npc's are composed of every race from Illidan's faction.But if your right then you could say the Illidari aren't a faction like the Alliance and the Horde even if that would be a little weird since Illidan's is like a Slave-master(Marakanis)


 * I think the only thing we can say is "we don't know it", since the illidari won't talk to us how many they are. We can see the title used for illidan's demons, the bloodelves in shadowmoon and the illidari council in black temple. then the tabard and the battle cry of the hellfire citadel orcs. others like the scryers talk of the faction just as "illidan's minions", "illidan's seervants" or the like, illidari as a faction name seems to be used just by the players (but most of os do since it is short and catchy). yet but there's no indication either of a difference between "true illidari" and others. --Hurax 19:51, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh well i supposse you kind of wraped it all up ......too bad i was enjoying the discussion rofl(Marakanis) And BTW Akama says something about the "Illidari Masters" in the quest when you have to kill Shade of Akama.He says to his his people about revolting against their "Illidari Masters".Cool huh?http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10957(Marakanis)

Illidari-Lord Balthas says the Reth'hedron the Subduer is a problem that the Illidari do not need. Thus, Illidari as a faction. --Timolas (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Tags
Propping a "speculation" tag on top of the whole article, after you already propped a "sources" tag onto it, is hardly helpful. It is usually used for sections that are, well speculation, and not for what looks like a naming dispute. Please post constructive suggestions instead. --Hurax 06:19, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * You said it yourself, "we don't know", and that it may be just the fans/players using the term Illidari to cover all minions under Illidan, with no official basis. Thus you admit its limited to speculation on parts of everyone now. If citations can be added then the speculation can be moved down farther into the article or removed. But as of right now it seems its mere speculation on people's parts. However there is nothing wrong or against forum policy with placing citations withion a speculatory article or section its done quite often actually.Baggins 06:31, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, but that does not make the whole article a speculation or a rumor (the category put into by the tag). Your valid point is the name of Illidari applied to the whole faction/affiliation, but not the content of the article. Suggest a name move ("Illidan's forces"), while taking care of all links, but that tag is inappropriate here. --Hurax 06:54, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The whole article can be "speculation" if people are unsure what content should actually be, or actually is. If you care to clean it up, to be less specuation and limited to only the facts as we know them, the tag can be moved or removed.Baggins 07:17, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

If you think this needs to be cleaned up, then do it yourself or state precisely what you have to criticise about it. "care to clean it up", edit around randomly until somteimes it may please you that the tag "can be moved or removed"? Er... I would have written mor but here isn't the right place, I'll wait for other contributors' comments. --Hurax 08:33, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I've already stated criticisms in discussions on this page. One is the fact it seems people are speculating on what "illidari" means without giving any factual details. I.E. people speculating that Illidari covers all of Illidan's forces despite evidence that makes that unlikely. That is currently speculation, as long as that speculation exists, it makes the article subject to speculation tag.Baggins 08:52, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

OH man.....the evidence you put in can be interpreted in many other ways as well.Those quests don't indicate your theory that only the armies closer to Illidan are Illidari as clearly as you may think,they indicate alot of more theoryes so it's not likely proof,Anyway our discussion was about the forces belonging to an organization ,not the name of the organization,the name is clearly Illidari(from the quests)that at least is obvious from the quests.Anyway if your evidence is correct then why don't you make the page back like you made it before?Or your not that sure of your evidence?(Marakanis)


 * You just brought up the other problem, the fact that some of the material can be "interpreted many ways". This is one of the reasons we have the "speculation" banner, when there isn't a given specific definition, and people have various theories. Since the fact we don't really know all the details, then anything discussed is speculatory at best.


 * However, the article currently lacks any of the facts mentioning who actually uses Illidari banners, or the term Illidari is actually used in game. I'll add those in later.Baggins 04:41, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


 * If I may - the term "Illidari" is actually used several times in game, generally in the naming of items: The green and purple trophy tabards and the Cowl of the Illidari High Lord (drop from Illidan). It is also used to refer to demons in Illidan's service, as well as the Illidari Council (the boss before Illidan in BT), Illidari Lord Balthas (dude in the Netherwing quest hub in Shadowmoon Valley), so on. --Joshmaul 05:11, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I believe I mentioned this above, but all of those references appear only in Shadowmoon Valley, hence the arguement on if Illidari is a faction within Illidin's Forces rather than a term that covers all of his forces in other lands.Baggins 19:21, 18 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Just remembered one other thing..."Illidari" also refers to the demons in Hellfire Peninsula. That's the only source outside of Shadowmoon Valley and the Black Temple, but notable. --Joshmaul 21:40, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Noticing the location of the speculation tag, the speculation should really be at the end of the article, if possible. 14:13, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Joshmaul specificallly the demons were the Illidari Taskmasters I've mentioned those in a previous post above. Not all the demons in Hellfire are marked as Illidari. Kirkburn the big problem with this article is the majority of it is speculation with little to no cited facts.Baggins (talk) 03:50, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

meaning of illidari
im not sure if this was mentioned but the word illidari, does this mean children of illidan as sin'dorei means children of blood and kaldorei means children of the stars? this is simply speculation but because illidan was an elf and speaks the language it makes scense that he would name his faction that

I'd say it's just a factionized form of the name Illidan. It's not like Illidan are these individuals' father. It's simply a faction with Illidan as their undisputed ruler.--WoWWiki-Odolwa 22:15, 4 May 2008 (UTC)


 * "Children of Illidan" in Darnassian would be "Illidan'dorei." "Children" translates to "Dorei," it's not denoted by an "-i" suffix.-- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 05:10, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Illidan's Servitors
Considering that the term Illidan's Servitors referred specifically to a faction of satyrs under Illidan in Warcraft III, I'm not sure I agree with the speculation of applying it to all forces under Illidan.

It might be better to move the page to "Illidan's forces" as they are described in various sources including the World of Warcraft Encyclopedia, other World of Warcraft.com webpages, and the RPG. That way the article could avoid falling under 90% speculation. Most of the article then could be factual rather than speculalation on if the page name is accurate or not(which is the problem with using Illidari or Illidan's Servitors as the page title).Baggins (talk) 03:59, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I find it ridiculous that we separate 'Illidan's forces' and 'Illidari'. All indications ingame point to the Illidari being more than just some random subfaction in Shadowmoon Valley. Even the orcs in Hellfire have a warcry "Lok'tar Illidari!" Do you mean to tell me they are praising some isolated subfaction halfway across Outland? What would constitute Illidari then? I very much doubt the fel orcs are cheering on an Eclipsion and demon faction unrelated to their own struggle, especially since they answer directly to Kargath and not Arzeth the Merciless or anything. Illidari Service Papers "I send this wretch to you now as a servant of Illidan. While he has no future as a death knight, you may find that he has skills suitable to your liking. Beat him into submission. Shape him into a warrior of the Illidari." Quest:In Service of the Illidari I mean, do you really to tell me that even the Dragonmaw orcs constitute Illidari but that somehow, all other factions do not? The Eclipsion and Illidan's Naga can still be their own individual sides without having to make a distHotion between Illidan's forces and Illidari. I simply find it irrational to constitute this level of division for no reason when ingame evidence seems to point to this fact. The counter arguement against the Illidari point seems to be that the word Illidari doesn't pop up far beyond Shadowmoon and the Black Temple. It pops up in a lot of Hellfire nonetheless, and I don't see how it's subtle absence in Zangar means anything. As for Kael's troops, they are Legion defectors anyway, and even then they can retain their own banners. We don't say that the Legion is a subfaction of Tempest Keep because the blood elves there have their own flag. --Timolas (talk) 05:13, 28 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I might disagree, but looking at both pages, I see no reason whatsoever to keep them separate. Illidari could easily be merged back into Illidan's Forces, or we could go back to square 1 and rename it Illidari, but there isn't much purpose in keeping them separate. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 14:04, 28 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually they must be kept separate, the Illidari appear to be a subdivision of the demons and fel orcs of Illidan's forces according to this quest: Quest:Against the Illidari ...his pet servants, the Illidari, are as much of an abomination as any demon of the Burning Legion... Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 20:14, 28 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't see the same conclusion. That quote could refer to any one of the races under Illidan: fel orcs, naga or blood elves, all three of whom are corruptions of an original form. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 20:36, 28 December 2008 (UTC)


 * You're right I misread. However I have still have a reason to maintain them separate: No Naga, fel orc nor Ashtounge has been marked as an Illidari. The Illidari always refers to Demons, satyrs and blood elves. The fel orcs say Lok'tar Illidari, which means "victory for the illidari", probably refering to the demons which are their superiors. Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 22:43, 28 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Ah, that's more like it. Even with that, though, I'd suggest making Illidari a section of Illidan's forces. I must also point out that with that warcry, the fel orcs could still be referring to themselves; after all, Thrall says "for the Horde."
 * Lore-wise, if Illidari is a title applied to higher-ranking members of his forces, why do blood elves make the cut and not naga? (not part of the argument, just a note) Weird politics!-- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 00:47, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Loyality of blood elves
Are some blood elves still really loyal to him? i mean when you travel between places you kinda time travel. from isle of QD back to outland - few months- (kae lstill works with illidan). and from northrend back to tirisfal - few years- (scarlet crusade still alive there), so is it possible that none of them are really loyal to him anymore, i mean, Kael is their king and savior. sorry for unclear text Noobi666 (talk) 14:16, 28 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, given that he's dead, nobody is loyal to him directly anymore... anyway, whatever remains of his factions, there could be blood elves who are still loyal to his faction, and even if he were alive, some could place loyalty to him above the direction the race is taking. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 16:38, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I find it likely that there were at least a few blood elves who, for one reason or another, remained loyal to Illidan. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 08:48, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Better name
Shouldn't this article have the bettername tag? It is not a proper organization, just a name given in general to groups loyal to Illidan. For instance, there are mentions of "Theramore's army", "Xi'ri's army", etc. but I don't think articles are allowed for every person or group with "force", "army", etc. after its name — that is not capitalized. Unless those are allowed? Rolandius ( talk  -  contr ) 06:05, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, it should. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 18:23, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


 * No, it shouldn't the term is taken from Warcraft III. Just like Human Expedition or Crippling Force. Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 21:40, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "Illidan's Forces" has support, but was that just the name of those groups, or all his forces (especially the ones seen in WoW)? What is "Illidari"? The overall connection may not have been made.-- 22:09, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


 * That is the thing. I don't remember a group called "Illidan's Forces" in Warcraft III, although maybe I missed it. "Human Expedition" and "Crippling Force I do remember from Warcraft III. According to this article, it is called "Illidan's forces", and not "Illidan's Forces", so it is not a proper organization. Which level is "Illidan's Forces" in so I can check it out? If it is not there, then the article should have the bettername tag. Rolandius [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] ( talk -  contr ) 02:41, 24 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The article title is cited correctly, please check the citations before starting to discuss. Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 03:09, 24 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I checked the citations before I posted here. If this is the correct article title, then I go back to what i said in the beginning. This article should have the bettername tag because it is not a proper organization. It is called "Illidan's forces" which is lower-case. If it was a proper organization it would be called "Illidan's Forces". Rolandius [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] ( talk -  contr ) 03:20, 24 June 2009 (UTC)


 * So the correct thing to do then, is suggest a Move. 06:00, 24 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Only if it is spelled "Illidan's Forces". I didn't see it on the article about the level and the quest one is lower-case. Rolandius [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] ( talk -  contr ) 06:03, 24 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I've added an alternate name and another source of "Illidan's forces". The quest quest:The Ashtongue Tribe says: They [Ashtounge tribe] are as fierce and ruthless as any naga, demon or blood elf in Illidan's army... so if you want a better name it should be Illidan's army as it is told that include the brokens, demons, naga and blood elves. Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 20:30, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * However I would give preference to "Illidan's forces" because it's used various times in WC3. Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 20:32, 24 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I am not saying that the term "Illidan's forces" does not appear anywhere in the Warcraft universe. I know it has been mentioned in various places. My whole thing is that is not called "Illidan's Forces", but instead is a general term for people following Illidan. For instance, lore mentions "Lothar's forces", "Turalyon's forces", "Khadgar's forces", "Lich King's forces", "Xi'ri's army", "Theramore's army", etc. but they are just general terms like "Illidan's forces". So if general terms like " 's army" or " forces" can be made into articles then okay I understand why this is an article. I always thought we tried to make articles from things like "Crippling Force" or "Alliance Expedition" and not something like "John's people" or "Jane's forces". Rolandius [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] ( talk -  contr ) 01:15, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

In this case, the faction information came before the name, and a good guess was chosen for the name. It used to be Illidari. The title is lower case because that is the was most things from Warcraft III were added to the wiki.-- 01:55, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay, I read something from Ragestorm saying about the same thing Sandwichman said. The article was once Illidari but then some changes happened and this article's title was a guess chosen for the name. Stuff from Warcraft III was lower case back then. Now that we are not using lower case words for things from the games, and the term "Illidan's Forces" is not in Warcraft III, should we have this article? Like I said above, lore mentions "Lothar's forces", "Turalyon's forces", "Khadgar's forces", "Lich King's forces", "Xi'ri's army", "Theramore's army", etc. but we don't make articles for those type of general terms. "Illidan's forces" is just a general term for anyone following Illidan. An organization/faction/group does not exist called "Illidan's Forces" or anything like that. Rolandius [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] ( talk  -  contr ) 05:08, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The term Illidari was used before but then it was changed as it didn't include Kael'thas' forces nor Illidan's Naga. The term is a team of Warcraft III, just like other articles are, but it isn't capitalized; why is that a reason to be a wrong name? I still don't get it. Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 18:26, 25 June 2009 (UTC)