Talk:Rhonin/Mary Sue


 * This discussion has been CLOSED by the Head Bookkeeper. Attempts to revive it will result in a ban not exceeding three weeks . -_ Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 

Personaly, I think Rhonin is a massive Mary Sue (a character writters should definatly avoid) for such reasons like:
 * typical guilty mistake in the past which haunts him - wrecklace use of magic costing Wizarding lives
 * Almighty and powerful - enough so to teach the mighty Illidan Stormrage magic and be his Master (this merits the mighty three letter term "wtf")
 * witty and charismatic, lovable by the reader - an elderly, ever studdying mage of the Kirin Tor with the mistake of the past seen above wouldn't posess such charisma and cherpy wittyness

Personally, I wasn't fond of the books, Richard Knaak needs to learn to tone down his characters and quit making them almighty and powerful


 * Sign your posts, please. If you'd have bothered to read all four books properly, you'd notice that Illidan (who, at this time, was not particularly powerful) thought of him as a teacher; "Master" in this case means "professor" or some such. Rhonin isn't almighty- as Kirin Tor wizards go, he's midlevel, his powers were greater because of th Well of Eternity.
 * Rhonin isn't particularly charistmatic; he also isn't elderly, or described as particularly studious.-- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 20:54, 9 April 2007 (EDT)


 * Actually, you'll find a dreaded sue (rating from bad to toxic, if you know what I mean) in each of Knaak's novels for Warcraft (I yet have to get my hands on another of his books...)There'd be Rhonin, Anveena and...seriously...worst of all: Korialsstrasz...--Maibe 07:39, 10 April 2007 (EDT)


 * I'll agree to Korialstrasz, but I think it's part of Anveena's character. Whether or not Rhonin is is a matter of opinion, but the evidence above does not work. Addendum: something else you need to consider is length; Knaak didn't quite have time to spend on character development for all of the action he was writing.-- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 08:30, 10 April 2007 (EDT)


 * Rhonin would be considered a minor-sue...seeing some things he managed even though he should have been much too exhausted...as for the addendum...well...I look at the books on the shelf here and see Knaak's books are by far the thickest of the bunch...he should try and write less over-detailed action...--Maibe 10:32, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

If I'm remembering right, he wasn't being reckless in regards to his failed mission. It was the people he was escorting who got in his way. --Austin P 09:08, 12 April 2007 (EDT)

"he should try and write less over-detailed action..."! Thats make makes these books great IMO! What would you prefer? Insted of several chapters dedicated to one of the biggest battles in warcraft history, he just wrote "They had a bit of a scuffle, some gods turned up and they kinder won in the end!" If you dont like the knaak books, dont read them! --Diggory, Bookkeeper 07:43, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

While I agree that the detail makes them great, a person should be allowed to voice critcism, and not be met with "if you don't like them, don't read them". --Austin P 13:05, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree, Rhonin is pretty much an author insertion character. Heroic character who eventually meets all the big heroes (And villains) of Warcraft, marries an elf and has godsawful half-elf children, as well as the utterly horrible name. Yeah Rich, we can see it's Ronin. Wouldn't be suprised to find out if he was Arthas' squash partner, to be honest. He comes across as that sort of character. Whiplash1427 22:23, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I thought Illidan was Arthas' squash partner? J/k. I think Rhonin is a pretty fine protaganist and the books were pretty good as well. Knaak is no Shakespeare or Tolkien but the books are good reads. --Invin Dranoel 06:10, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I thought Rhonin was fairly powerful for a mage of the Kirin Tor in DotD considering he was powerful enough for Krasus to trust him in the first place. It would make since that since then his powers have only grown, (As mages tend to get more powerful as they get older.)  Obviously the Kirin Tor thinks hes powerful enough to merit being put in charge of Dalaran's epedition to Northrend; wouldn't it make sense then that he would be, while certainly not the most powerful mage ever, certainly a very powerful one?  (It should also be pointed out that Illidan's powers would be significantly heightened by the presence of the Well of Eternity also because a mage is a mage.) Lckyluke372  19:01, October 12 2007

Near the beginning of DotD, when the Kirir Tor protests using Rhonin, Krasus states that he's the only capable mage that they can spare. This indicates that there were probably better candidates, but they were all busy. Still, Rhonin would've been a capable individual regardless of power. And his role in the War of the Ancients would've given him a lot of experience even if it didn't permanently increase his power. (Though I'm guessing no one in the Kirir Tor knows about that).--Austin P 11:54, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Also he seemed to be somewhat expendable, and considered a failure. Several of the council scoffed that he would be able to succeed at all, and would probably die.Baggins 11:58, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I though I did a fair job of shredding the original accusations. So to recap: is Rhonin an author-insertion? Yes. Is he idealized in every way, including his flaws? I think not. -_ Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 14:08, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Ugh. Rhonin was powerful because Knaak has the mentality of, "Oooh, I really need to make this badass character who's so badass that he's friends with this badass dragon who's mating with one of the most important dragons ever, and he's going to solve all his problems and Illidan's badass but not as badass as Rhonin that he's going to look up to Rhonin because Rhonin's just oozing with badassery." To be honest, I think the Sunwell mangas, Day of the— basically anything written by Knaak is horrid. Why Blizzard ever keeps asking Knaak to keep writing this repetitive posh is beyond me.

On top of that, is it really necessary that Korialstrasz appears in EVERY SINGLE KNAAK BOOK? Rhonin is not a character at all. A Mary Sue is not a character, but is instead a writing flaw. The rest of the characters that star in any book containing Rhonin or Krasus are not characters either; rather, they are sock puppets that serve only to say, "Oh gosh he's wonderful." I think they have toilet paper around that reads, "Lore." So please, Blizz, leave Rhonin out of Dalaran in WotLK. His presence makes it that much harder to pretend that he doesn't even exist. Antinate 02:31, 19 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Making complaints, and stating opinions, without backing up with reasons why you believe the way you do, doesn't really make for a sound arguement.


 * On a related note we now Metzen is involved with every single author and their novels. It would be interesting to know how much direct influence he has on creating the characters, and who those characters are, and what they do in the novels.Baggins 02:53, 19 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I think I put in a healthy amount of reasons and examples. And I believe that Blizzard grants a lot of freedom to the authors when they make their books (Christie Golden made up a whole bunch of Draenor lore when she wrote Rise of the Horde.) I also believe that Blizzard doesn't listen to Metzen as much as they should. Time after time it's noted that the lore Metzen built was modified for the sake of gameplay, to the point that Metzen pointed out that he was unhappy with how BC turned out. Antinate 02:59, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Believing is one thing, knowing another. We don't know exactly who come up with whichever content is decided upon. WoTLK seems to be atempting to get back to the Lore (though i'm sure many parts of it will be misconstruded as "lorelols" by the kiddies at the official forums). Rhonin and Krasus being used is a part of this, the two are very popular characters. Wouldnt be surprised if Metzen decided to use Rhonin in this case. Knaak we can say with great certainly likely has very little say over what blizzard adds to it's MMO. Helping you maintain any personel delusions is very likely low on their priority list. Sorry if that sounds a little harsh. 03:30, 19 November 2007 (UTC)


 * You were muCh kinder than I would have been. Given the fact that this has NEVER been an editorial discussion, I am CLOSING this line of thought. Anyone attempting to revive it will be... dealt with. -- Ragestorm  (talk &middot; contr) 04:03, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

What the heck's a mary sue anyway? I mean God use words people in 2007 use.  Mr.X8  Talk Contribs  23:27, 19 November 2007 (UTC)


 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue < --- Flawless, boring self-insert, and people still use the term.  Just dig through any literature-based messageboards  ( or Encyclopedia Dramatica, for that matter )  and you'll find it being used.  --Super Bhaal 23:38, 19 November 2007 (UTC)