Talk:Zul'jin

Zul'jin and the Revantusk tribe
I know that the belief that Zul'jin is a Revantusk troll is quite widespread, but can anyone quote any official source at all that confirms this? The only thing I know that vaguely hints in that direction is the quote by Mystic Yayo'jin from the "Cannibalistc Cousins" quests: "If Zul'jin were here, he would have destroyed the whole lot of them with a flick of his wrist - alas, Zul'jin has not yet returned and we are left to our own devices." But honestly, going from this quote that only shows that the Revantusks revere Zul'jin (like almost all trolls do) and hope that he returns to crush those pesty other trolls (who probably also believe that Zul'jin would be on their side if he returned), to "Zul'jin belongs to the Revantusk tribe!" is quite a stretch. Also, the troll compendium on the official website makes it quite clear that Zul'jin belongs to the Amani tribe and makes no mention at all in the section about the Revantusk tribe that Zul'jin belongs to them. So on the one side we have an official source of lore that states Zul'jin belongs to the Amani tribe and on the other hand we have a at best vague statement by some NPC which some fans chose to interpret their way. Unless someone can quote a solid source that says Zul'jin belongs to the Revantusk tribe, I would consider this as fan-fiction (or speculation at best). --Foogray 12:43, 7 August 2006 (EDT)

Re: Zul'jin and the Revantusk tribe
Wow... I might have to bust a cap lol... I fixed the Zul'jin article regarding this already: The "Revantusk" ARE the Amani because the Amani encompasses all Forest Trolls from the former Forest Troll Empire of Zul'AMAN, get it? Amani isnt a tribe- its the collection of all Forest Troll Tribes that used to form an Empire just as all the Jungle Troll Tribes used to form the Gurubashi empire headed from the capital of Zul'Gurub.

If you say "Zul'jin isnt from Revantusk, he's Amani" it's the equivalent of saying "Vol'jin isnt from Darkspear, he's Gurubashi"... yea its true, but its too broad for no reason.

IF Zul'jin's home tribe wasnt the Revantusk: a.) they wouldnt expect him back at their specific village b.) wouldnt have any reason to believe that he would help them in favor of the Skullsplitter or Vilebranch.

I hope that clears it up :P D-Gen


 * Actually, you are wrong. The Amani ARE a tribe. Don't confuse the Amani Empire, which was named after the Amani tribe and most of the forest troll tribes were a part of, with the Amani tribe. Yes, the Revantusk trolls were part of the Amani Empire. No, the Revantusk tribe is not the same as the Amani tribe. Go read the troll compendium on the official site (linking to the Europe site since the US site is down at the moment), especially this page and maybe this one, too. There it is explicitly stated that the word Amani can refer to both the empire and the tribe, and that Zul'jin was a member of the Amani TRIBE. Please get your facts straight before argueing.
 * As to your specific arguments why Zul'jin belongs to the Revantsuk tribe (although it's kind of silly to argue about it when you have an official source that clearly states otherwise): a) Mystic Yayo'jin just speaks of Zul'jin "returning" in general, not that he is expected to only show up at the Revantusk village. Sure, Mystic Yayo'jin believes that when Zul'jin returns he will also visit the Revantusk tribe - but nowhere in his statement is it implied that Zul'jin is only expected to be back at this specific village. b) The Revantusk tribe obviously reveres Zul'jin and they try to act according to what they learned from him. So of course they expect him to be on their side when he comes back. But as I also said: It's highly probable that the Skullsplitter and Vilebranch trolls also think that Zul'jin would be on their own side when he returned. You know, it's kind of like a religion: Every religion or sect thinks they are the only people who got it right and when Judgment Day or whatever comes only they will be saved. Every believer thinks god is on their side. And just like that all trolls probably believe that Zul'jin would be on their side and not the other's when he returns. That's my explanation, anyway. But as I said: We do have an official source that says that Zul'jin doesn't belong to the Revantusk tribe, so there really isn't much sense in argueing about him being a Revantusk. Unless you can produce some kind of official evidence where Blizzard clearly contradict themselves. But Mystic Yayo'jin's statement hardly qualifies as that. --Foogray 14:17, 16 August 2006 (EDT)


 * Whatever will happen to him, I would be greatly disappointed if Zul'jin comes back as a mere boss of an Instance (Zul'Aman) or any other killable mob. The Alliance is getting most (all?) of their old heroes back, so why Horde shouldn't get at least one? I know, that the Forest Trolls left the old Horde because they began to loose, but it was somewhere mentioned that Zul'jin vanished some time before the Horde's defeat, so he might don't know about this and that... Wildhammer's are getting their Kurdran, so why Revantusk's were not to get Zul'jin? It would be great to see one old hero come back to aid the Horde (the new, better Horde, not the old corrupted ne'er-do-wells).
 * Revantusk's hold onto Zul'jin's oath/promise/whatever to aid the Horde - it means he never broke that pact (that the forest trolls abandoned the old Horde doesn't mean that they did so by Zul'jin's order). So why should he should do it now, if he hadn't done that before? --Sul&#39;jin 19:07, 12 January 2007 (EST)

Found another quote discussing Zul'jin's connection to the Revantusk; Huntsman Markhor of the Revantusk: "Zul'jin shall return one day. Mark my words. Until then, we all hold our positions and do what we can to keep the forest troll population intact." --Baggins 03:47, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Zul'Jin Is Alive
This is a copy from the Zul'aman talk:

After an hour of investigation i think i have finally found out where Zul'Jin is. In WoW,s Minimap Files there is two files called: Zulaman_Warlord_Zuljin_Temple_000_00_00 and _001_00_00. Both of em are in this picture: http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/6259/zulamanwarlordzuljintemrh6.jpg If the minimap file exists, then there must be an area like that ingame and of course it would be in Zul'Aman, i decided to find that place and found it at the center of Zul'Aman. Here are links to the building from underground and from the sky (You can see the picture from underground matches the minimap) From the sky: http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/8351/zuljintempleupvm3.jpg From underground: http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/8774/zuljintempledownxg9.png In Zul'Gurub and Zul'Farrak the mainboss is at the center of the instance but in Zul'Aman it is also in the center but after the temple there continues a bridge into an outdoor temple, heres a picture: http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/5691/outdoortempleos1.jpg So i would think Zul'Jin is not the last boss but 1 before it. But that would be a bit strange sience you can walk around the temple where Zul'Jin probally is right to the bridge to outdoor temple. Who knows, this is just what i found out :)

EDIT: If you look the underground picture you can see invisible walls (colured blocks) wich would make it impossible to go around the temple.

-Arcanite


 * New topics go at the BOTTOM. Also, none of those things prove his existence there, or have any relation to him. Pzychotix 12:01, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I apologize im new to Wowwiki, but why would Blizzard name a buildings minimap with Zulaman_Warlord_Zuljin_Temple_000_00_00 if it there would not be Zul'Jin?
 * Maybe the temple is named Zul'jin Temple? :] --Sky (t · c · w) 15:42, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Because Zul'jin is a very generic name. Read up at Zandali. "Zul'jin" = title/name, used for a "great tribal witch doctor"(rough translation).WoWRPG 50 It does not necessarily mean this Zul'jin in particular. And like Sky said, the Temple could be dedicated to someone named "Zul'jin", and not necessarily a throne for him to be there. Pzychotix 15:45, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I really dont think that someone would name a temple by name: Warlord Zul'Jin temple. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by.
 * But it doesn't work like that. What matters is what Blizz thinks. And we don't get to know until they release that content. And no, looking at data files does not count as "releasing" content. —Pzychotix (talk &middot; contr) 11:47, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Vengeance for Zul'jin?
I've noticed a rather inconsistency concerning this character in game. From what is known, Zul'jin was a forest troll who rallied the various troll tribes of the north into one whole fighting force. Why is it that one of the charge emotes for the playable trolls (which are of course the Darkspear Trolls) has them screaming "Vengance for Zul'jin"?

This line was also muttered in Warcraft III when you produced Headhunters and it doesn't make much sense. From what we can gather, the Darkspears were native of Stranglethorn and were exiled from their homeland at an uncertain point in history. How is it possible for them to know Zul'jin? The various troll tribes have little (if any) contact with one another and mostly distrust one another. Aside from that, even if the Darkspears were still present in Stranglethorn during the Second War, it seems logical that they wouldn't care much about what a Forest Troll in the north was doing.

The correct term should be "Vengance for Sen'jin" since he was the late Darkspear Tribe leader. Of course, since the prefixxes Zul and jin are common in Troll language they might be referring to him by his title (Warlord Witch Doctor?). If this is the case, then there's the possibility that Zul'jin might not be this character's real name.

Just a thought -- Wyvernlord


 * This question has been answered by Blizzard in a Q&A by stratics.com: http://wow.stratics.com/content/Developers/questions/may06.php The troll compendium on the official website also explains why Zul'jin is revered by all trolls. -- Foogray 13:20, 5 July 2006 (EDT)

Yea, I was gonna give a longer explanation but Foogray's link is the most straightforward anyone can put it. Zul'jin is a legend, and all trolls look up to him. D-Gen

-- Hm, what's the reference to this sentence?

"Rumours persisted that the once mighty warlord had become a merchant selling to Trolls and Orcs."

Where have you heard that rumor? Odolwa 19:16, 4 August 2006 (EDT)


 * I think this comes from the cancelled Warcraft Adventures game where Zul'jin was to appear as a character. And in that game it would have been revealed that Zul'jin became a merchant. But of course since the game never saw the light of day we can hardly assume that Blizzards thinks the lore it would have contained is official. A lot of that game's storyline was recycled in the Lord of the Clans novel, though. But Zul'jin didn't make an appearance in the novel. --Foogray 12:43, 7 August 2006 (EDT)


 * Ive heard that "rumor" referenced as long as there has been info about Zul'jin, its difficult to find a source atm, but it is definitely canonical. D-Gen


 * I would be very thankful if you could provide an official source (besides the aforementioned Warcraft Adventures) for that. Unless someone does I wouldn't consider it as "definitely canonical". --Foogray 14:23, 16 August 2006 (EDT)


 * I know this is rather old, but here is the source of that. It's on the forth page:
 * The troll Zuljin, robbed of his infamous status in Warcraft II, now runs a trading post on one of the reservations.
 * So there ya go. Of course, this is a storyline Blizzard obviously didn't go with, given WarCraft Adventures was cancelled. --WarlockSoL (talk) 14:51, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Zul'jin in BC?
I was watching the BC Movie (the official one presenting Draenei Paladin and Blood Elf Priestess absorbing the Mana Wyrm into orb of mana thing), and after seeing that picture I began to wonder if that troll on the screenshot above is not actually Zul'jin? 07:08, 18 January 2007 (EST)


 * The Making of DVD portrayed the scene as rather insignificant. It's supposed to be a Troll Priest riding a raptor, that's it. -- Zeal  talk   contr  web 07:29, 18 January 2007 (EST)


 * Except for Illidan, none of the characters in the cinematic are meant to be major. Random Troll, random Blood Elf priestess, random Draenei paladin, and the orc bears an uncanny resemblence to the one in the standard WoW cinematic. -- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 08:18, 18 January 2007 (EST)


 * Well we know the human and forsaken are both the same ones from the original cinematic ;) -- Zeal  talk   contr  web 08:26, 18 January 2007 (EST)


 * Wow. How'd Blizzard get a priest out of that?  I thought it was a warrior.  --Super Bhaal 00:13, 29 April 2007 (EDT)


 * Will he be in Zul'Aman in some way?-- 18:29, 29 April 2007 (EDT)


 * Unfortunately yes. Blizzard's had a streak of what I perceive as very biased instance material.  Apparently no significant hero in the Alliance can ever become the subject of a raid boss (Before people start claiming Illidan and Arthas, Illidan was always a maverick and it was painfully obvious what would happen to Arthas from the start, and he was pretty unlikable to boot even as a pompous paladin).  While all the Horde heroes remain irredeemable corrupt, dead or killable Danath Trollbane, Kurdren Wildhammer and probably Turalyon and Alleria are impervious to corruption.


 * Zul'jin is confirmed as the final boss of Zul'Aman. The reasoning behind it is because the blood elves feel threatened by Zul'jin, so they convince Thrall to stage an assault against Zul'Aman. --- Zexx 04:58, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Not all of the Horde heroes remain "irredeemable corrupt, dead, or killable." Just the heroes that date back to Warcraft 1 or 2, when the Horde really WAS corrupt. -Paulus 00:20, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Whatever happened to diplomacy first, :p... and however will they explain Zul'jin's death to the Revantusk tribe ;).Baggins 05:00, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Thrall is no fool, and I doubt that he would put the Blood Elves before his Troll allies. You theory is pure speculation, Zexx. --Odolwa 13:05, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Except that Zul'jin and the Forest Trolls AREN'T Thrall's allies. "Forest Trolls! I still can't believe they were ever part of the Horde!" is not something you say about your allies... -Paulus 00:04, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

How long have you been playing WoW? Because I recall similar rhetoric before and after the beta when the fourth Horde race was announced as Forsaken, and it sent shockwaves throughout the community. Your own views on a character do not make whatever happens in the game true. While it's true there has been no official statement on the matter by Blizzard, the hints given their description of Zul'Aman from conventions makes it pretty clear. The theory of Blood Elf paladins are regarded as far fetched, and anyone who suggested it was thoroughly mocked on the forums, but during the final E3 a Blizzard representative stated, "We are well aware of the gap in PvE between Horde and Alliance because of paladins" when asked if the rumor about Blood Knights had any validity.

I wouldn't be surprised. Afterall it's the easiest and most plausible explanation so far, and in a game, that's really the kind of explanation you want. --- Zexx 15:58, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Zul'Jin or Zuljin?
I clearly remember (and just checked to be sure) that Zul'Jin was spelled Zuljin during Warcraft II, so is there any official sources calling him Zul'jin? It's spelled without the ' every time he is mentioned in the game, both when you controls him and when he is mentioned in the briefing, so it cant be a typo. -Rovdyr


 * The BC Bestiary uses an apostrophe, so it appears to have been retconned.-- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 16:39, 22 January 2007 (EST)


 * There were many names changed from Warcraft 2 to WoW (adding apostrophes to names, making two word names one (Shadow Moon -> Shadowmoon), etc.). I would suggest considering both Zul'jin and Zuljin forms correct, with Zul'jin being the "better one".17:39, 22 January 2007 (EST)

Query
On page 166 of the HPG, it states that Zul'jin leads the Revantusk tribe. However, if this was so I'd think it'd be mentioned in the game, considering how revered he is by other Forest Trolls. And on page 158, it's said that Zul'Jin disappeared after the second war and is believed to have been killed by Alleria Windrunner.

So what would you guys say? Is this an in book error, contradiction or could it be taken as fact? Austin P 07:36, 2 May 2007 (EDT)


 * Probably a typo. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 09:01, 2 May 2007 (EDT)

Some of the quest lines in Reventusk Village mention Zul'jin IIRC (although these references may have been removed with certain quests being removed from the game along with the faction). As I recall he was their leader, and he "disappeared". Yes, some believe he was killed but its never been confirmed. The book is just giving alternate opinions.Baggins 18:08, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

What opinions? He either is missing or he isn't. He either is leading the Reventusk tribe or he isn't. I don't see why or how they'd keep his return a secret, since Zul'jin is so universally feared and respected among forest trolls, if it was public knowledge he led the tribe Reventusk would get a huge statis boost. --Austin P 12:26, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh, there's something I forgot to mention. Both entries regarding Zul'Jin are stated by Brann Bronzebeard, which makes the contradiction even more confusing. --Austin P 15:31, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Brann mentions several opinons made by other people, he rarely makes his own opinion, or treats his opinions as being end all be all explanations. Another example is read the various theories he tosses out for what is going on in Kharazan.Baggins 18:37, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

But in those passages, he makes it clear that he's stating several theories. Zul'jin leading the Reventusk tribe is stated as a fact, and his death is stated as a theory. Brann also visited Reventusk village, so if Zul'jin was leading them, he would probably know for sure. --Austin P 15:54, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * You also have to take into context from Quotes in WoW that even if Zul'jin may brought a village into the Horde, he may have disappeared since then. There is lines in Yojimba about him being "missing", "perhaps dead". Also there is a small chance that whoever wrote the passage (one has to understand the book was a team effort, not just one author) in the HPG was actually making a passing reference to the Forest Trolls that mentioned as having joined the horde in TFT.


 * "The disenfranchised Trolls of northern Lordaeron have once again pledged their savage services to the Orcish Horde. These cunning warriors are trained from birth to hunt, track and trap the most dangerous beasts in the wild. In times of war, however, Troll Headhunters turn their mighty spears upon the enemies of the Horde without hesitation. Capable of hurling their deadly spears at distant enemies, Troll Headhunters provide invaluable cover fire for the other warriors of the Horde.""


 * If its in reference to Reventusk it makes sense in context to the quote made during one of the quests;


 * "If Zul'jin were here, he would have destroyed the whole lot of them with a flick of his wrist - alas, Zul'jin has not yet returned and we are left to our own devices."


 * Which implies that Zul'jin once was with the Reventusks, left, and hasn't returned. He's gone missing.Baggins 18:30, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

-Baggins 18:09, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Okay, that makes sense. --Austin P 18:31, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Looks like I made a mistake. The passage says "Zul'jin disappeared after the Second War, and most believed he died under a hail of Alleria Windrunner's arrows". Believed, past tense, as if that's no longer the case. It seems that it could be interpreted as Brann explaining what people thought happened to Zul'jin after he vanished after the Second War. --Austin P 04:58, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Do the dungeon designers even read the lore
Zul'jin is allied to the new Horde for gods sake. Haven't they read on the Revantusk? Zarnks 23:40, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

He even helped Thrall escape in lord of the Clans(the game). Zarnks 23:43, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

He could be corrupted by the witch doctor?-- 00:42, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Perhaps you don't know the latest occurences in the story? Ever thought of that? 02:42, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

It just doesn't make sense. Is Turalyon going to be a raid boss next. Zarnks 02:53, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

He is not evil either,he withdrew from the old Horde just angry at humans and elves for hunting his kind. Zarnks 03:46, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Again, speculation. There's no point getting all worked up about something before we know the relevant details. 09:19, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Don't forget that we don't know the full circumstances of what's happening. Obviously Alliance would have no qualms going in, and for Horde, there's always a wizard who did it (i.e. Zul'jin being possessed, some other plothole filler). —Pzychotix (talk &middot; contr) 12:00, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Let's be realistic here. At no point in WoW itself has Zul'jin been stated to be a member of the Revantusk tribe or, for that matter, the Horde at large. (The RPG Books, good as they are, also have numerous faults. Putting Zul'jin in the Revantusk tribe is one). He is the leader of the Amani Tribe - explicity stated - a force that is hostile to the present-day Horde. The Amani tribe will gladly attack members of the Horde, regardless of race.


 * The Amani are curently at war with the Blood Elves. The Blood Elves are a part of the Horde. The Horde chose to ally with the Blood Elves rather then the Amani tribe. Thus, the Amani would be regardled as a hostile force towards the Horde and, as their leader, Zul'Jin a hostile opponent.


 * Point two is that Zul'jin is no hero. He took part in the Second War on the Horde's side. During that war, the Trolls, much like the Orcs, willingly engaged in acts of slaughter, carnage and mayhem. Zul'jin himself was a warlord and a killer, hardly a heroic figure. Certainly he is not the sort of individual that Thrall would want as a major player within his "new" Horde.


 * The question here is not why the Horde would want to kill Zul'Jin, but hwy they wouldn't. --Darthfish 07:29, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

True the Rpg books make many mistakes. But the game also hints he is of Revantusk affilation. As for Morals,he only joined with the old Horde to save his people from extinction from maniacs like the Trollbanes. He later leaves the old Horde due to its corruption and may have helped Thrall in the past. Zarnks 07:36, 13 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Again, no. Let's look at the facts.


 * Zul'Jin joined the Horde both out of gratitude for being rescued and in order to conquer Quel'thalas. The Trolls were not being "threataned with extinction" in any way, shape or form. The only threat to the Trolls was possible retaliation from the High Elves. That, incidentally, would be retalliation to a war of aggression that he started. So it's hardly like Zul'jin and the Forest Trolls were "threatend with extinction". And I'd also hardly call the Trollbane family "maniacs" if Lord Trollbane is anything to go by.


 * Furthermore, Zul'jin did not leave the Horde becuase of any "corruption". Zul'jin gladly supported the orcs, knowing how barbaric and evil they were at the time. Certainly he had nothing aginst slaughtering civillians in Kaz Modan, Lorederon and Quel'thalas. Zul'jin left the horde becuse the Horde were losing the war. The Forest Trolls deserted their Orcish allies, something that would hardly be called a Heroic action.


 * Zul'jin never helped Thrall; in fact, it's likely that the two have never met. Yes, I know that Zul'jin was planned to be in Warcraft Adventures, however that game was scrapped. Lord of the Clans which replaces it in Lore does not feature Zul'jin in any way, shape or form; in fact, there's no point in time that Thrall could meet Zul'jin, let alone be aided by him.


 * The Troll Compendium on the Blizzard states explicitly that Zul'Jin is from the Amani tribe, not the Revantusk tribe. Furthermore, it states that Primal Torntusk is the leader of the tribe. At no point have Blizzard stated that Zul'jin is a part of the Revantusk tribe, let alone their leader. As a concequence, the "Zul'jin is a Revantusk" stance can be seen as a combination of an RPG book error and Fan speculation/wishful thinking.


 * Zul'jin is hostile to the Horde. He is the leader of a force that is hostile to the Horde. He is not heroic or noble, rather being a bloody warlord. --Darthfish 08:39, 13 July 2007 (UTC)


 * While Zul'jin and Thrall may never have met, it's quite likely that Thrall feels the same way about Zul'jin as about his followers: "Forest Trolls! I still can't believe they were ever part of the Horde!" (WarCraft 3) Paulus 18:23, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * We do not choose which lore is correct. We present the lore that is given to us. The HPG guide says one thing, you think something else says another. Therefore it is normal to say both. 08:52, 13 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, the HPG doesn't say that Zul'jin is the leader of the Revantusk tribe. On page 166 it only says: "While the forest trolls broke with the Horde after the Second War, recently a small tribe, under their old leader Zul’jin, has rejoined it." The word Revantusk is nowhere to be found on that page, though (or the pages before and after). Of course we can assume that the author meant the Revantusk tribe, but that's just an assumption, albeit a reasonable one. But another reasonable assumption is that this one offhand remark in the HPG is just an error on the writer's part. --Foogray 21:49, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Trollbanes not being a maniacs ha. Trollbanes were meciless and honorless. They wanted to kill every single orc and troll. Thoras Trollbane got upset,withdrawing his support from the Alliance about using orcs as slaves,wanting to kill them all along trolls. Zarnks 18:12, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm so tired of this. Now Zul'jin will join the ranks of individuals who are killed despite being honored by the player's factions. As a Troll Hunter it feels kinda stupid to kill Zul'jin when actually the Troll-emote for /charge is "For Zul'jin!". There are other examples:

Kargath Bladefist: Orcs tend to name places after their greatest heroes, and Kargath Bladefist is the one who have gotten more places named after him than any other Orc. "Kargath" in Badlands, "Bladefist Bay" in Durotar and "Kargathia Keep" in Ashenvale. Still Kargath Bladefist is a boss who are mercilessly killed by both Alliance and Horde.

Kael'thas Sunstrider: Kael is revered by his people, and seen as their messiah. Statues of him are littering Silvermoon, and still he is killed by cold-blooded Horde-players.

Yes, I doubt that Blizzard cares much about the lore these days. --Odolwa 00:37, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * You might recall that Kargath has been leading the fel orcs (who have embraced demonic corruption via Magtheridon's blood, something Thrall would never allow), who have been attacking both the Alliance AND the Horde. That he's been honored does not change the fact that he's using demonic power and openly attacking the Horde.  Kael'thas is a similar situation.  Sure, statues of him litter Quel'thalas and the blood elves praise him as their savior... But that's before they find out that he's joined up with the Burning Legion.  That's not really something where they can just let bygones be bygones and be nice to him anyway. - Dark T Zeratul 08:20, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree completely with DTZ - that the lore is convoluted and can show apparent discrepancies does not show they they don't care for the lore. 15:33, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

What you say is true, but you never managed to explain Zul'jin's situation. I can't possibly come up with any explaination for him having become evil. --Odolwa 16:45, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it's already been fairly well-established on this discussion page that he kind of already was. - Dark T Zeratul 08:25, 18 July 2007 (UTC)


 * SO WAIT AND PLAY THE INSTANCE!!!-- 16:46, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Even if I agree, no need to shout ;) 16:48, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I removed reference to you, so I can shout now.-- 16:49, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

"The word Revantusk is nowhere to be found on that page, though (or the pages before and after)"


 * Yes, but Revantusk is the only tribe stated in the book to "join" the Horde. They may not be specifically named, but there's no other conclusion.


 * "Yes, I doubt that Blizzard cares much about the lore these days."


 * In Blizzard's defense, the Orcs are pretty forgiving when it comes to their leaders. --Austin P 18:41, 17 July 2007 (UTC)


 * We already discussed this is about Zul'jin not about orc leaders.

Zarnks 19:00, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't matter. It was a comment made by someone in this topic, so I responded to it. --Austin P 19:31, 17 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I already discussed that orcs admit the flaws of their leaders and Grom Hellscream and Doomhammer are heroes.

Zarnks 19:16, 17 July 2007 (UTC)


 * And I still disagree. But it no longer matters. --Austin P 19:31, 17 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Think of it this way: Zul'jin is honoured because he was a great warrior and leader, not because he was a hero. --Adonzo 14:22, 26 July 2007 (UTC)


 * He's a hero to the forest trolls. --Austin P 11:14, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Not only to Forest Trolls, but indeed to all Trolls. As I told you before, my Jungle Troll yells "For Zul'jin" when I type /charge. --Odolwa 12:47, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmm. It seems a mite odd for them to care about Zul'jin considering how far away they were from his hunting grounds. And since the majority of the Darkspears have rejected the violent ways of the other trolls tribes, it seems to me like it'd make more sense for them to say "For Sul'jin!" --Austin P 18:02, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * He intended to unite all trolls.-- 18:12, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Read lands of conflict and you find that troll culture in Zul'aman is a might bit more complicated than just the "Amani tribe" there are a handful of other tribes/subtribes that consider Zul'Aman their home, and want to raise the Amani empire again.Baggins 18:16, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Like all trolls, Zul’Aman’s forest trolls are lean, strong and tough...Forest trolls are organized into tribes, with names such as Blackleaf and Treeblight, and members of the same tribe are relatively loyal to each other.
 * I also seem to recall that one of the quests or characters in Reventusk village also seem to imply some kind of history with Zul'jin, before he went "missing".Baggins 18:23, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Right right, I forgot about all of that.

Well, that's one MIA who's coming back. Still a decent number of others though. --Austin P 18:28, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * For the people above who went into a huge discussion as to what's said in literature you overlooked one of the important quotes in WoW itself, during.


 * Its the quest where its implied that Zul'jin is missing, he's left the Reventusk sometime in the past, he would have defended the tribe if he was still around, and the most important one that they are still waiting for his "return". If that's not a reference to his connection to the tribe I don't know what does, he had to have been there at some time to be able to "return", :P, and it fits the quote in HPG when taken in context that a tribe under Zul'jin "joined" (loosely of course) the horde...


 * The only thing though is this opens up more questions than answers, as to why is he leading tribes of the Amani, against the Horde and Alliance.Baggins 19:04, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

This makes no sense. Whats going to happen to the poor Revantusk? Various quests point to Zul'jin being a good guy. Zarnks 02:34, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to point out Orgrim was good and allied to the Old Horde, and Hellscream was evil and aligned with the Old Horde then became good, I don't think allegiance to the old horde had anything to do with good or bad. Furthermore, Zul'jin was fighting the Elves because they attacked his people and stole their homeland. I think the biggest problem with Blizzard lore-wise is they just tell us that the Forest Trolls were evil without going into any explanation of how they were evil, and then were supposed to just say "oh, well then the High Elves were right to take their homeland because they were BAD," like some insipid 6-year old. Personally at the moment, I'm inclined to believe Zul'jin to be good, as I remember him making the Forest Trolls stop the practice of cannibalism and stop infighting (I think I heard he was put under mind control by Jin'Zakk but I've been unable to find it again.) Lckyluke372  19:30, 12 October 2007


 * The Darkspear trolls gave up cannibalism, don't know of the forest trolls doing the same back then. Evil-ness doesn't have to be specifically connected to their relationship with the high elves. 11:57, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * First of all, Forest Trolls also are cannibals. That means they eat High Elves, Humans, Gryphons and opposite-tribe Forest Trolls.
 * Yes, Zul'jin stopped the war between all tribes and united them, but he didn't put an end to cannibalism whatsoever. The Zul'jin we'll have to fight is maybe trying to unite the Troll tribes again, what seems threatening for Humans, Dwarves, Blood Elves and Forsaken (enough to start a war).
 * Personally, as a Troll roleplayer, I've told my guild mates and extended Troll-roleplaying friends NOT to go to Zul'Aman and kill Trolls until we really know what's happening there. If Zul'jin is merely fighting for the Trolls and hasn't become utterly mad, then we'll simply boycott the instance.-- K )  (talk) 13:16, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I thought the same, to stay at Zul'Aman's waterfall avenue and stop any 10 raid players even at the risk of losing honor. No one will step into Zul'Aman as far as we are concerned (or banned from the realm?) *shrugs*-- Ravenore, the Necroshadowmancer 17:48, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

The whole cannabalism-argument is weak, considering the fact that Undead use cannibalism frequently, and they have appearantly no problem being part of the Horde. --Odolwa 09:37, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * "Kael'thas Sunstrider: Kael is revered by his people, and seen as their messiah. Statues of him are littering Silvermoon, and still he is killed by cold-blooded Horde-players."

As a loyal Horde player and a belf player and "fan" I can assure you, Kael is no prince of mine, no messiah, he's clearly a demon loving tosser, and I will be gladly in line with the rest of my fellow belfs in killing him and his crazed followers, belfs or otherwise. :) This goes for my fellow Horde Trolls to. Heres a newsflash guys. Your part of the new user friendly Horde. You do NOT associate with the old demonic Horde loving baby eaters, understand?, and to say you will for roleplay reasons is weak, and well, bad roleplay. Not to mention your tribe are from the other end of the continent long sundered and seperated from the forest trolls, you are JUNGLE trolls, and you have never even heard of Zul'jin, at in anything more then passing, and last I checked, jungle trolls have no special love for their northern cousins. Heres how it goes down. Good roleplay dictates that when bad trolls attack good members of the Horde, the good Trolls of the Horde join the other good races of the Horde in coming to their aid to smack down the threat to a Horde member race. Thats accurate roleplay, just as lore dictates I would feel compelled to come aid Darkspear trolls under attack from Felbloods and Illidari/Burning Legion belfs. --Nurizeko

Zul'Aman Zul'jin
Seems he lost his arm now also but here is how he looks in the 2.3 PTR: http://www.worldofraids.com/news/october/2.3/zuljin.jpg Leviathon 16:04, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * ...and I thought lore established that trolls could regenerate lost appendages?Baggins 06:40, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Now now you know how Blizzard is with lore :p Of course the regeneration may take longer depending on the size of the body part severed and he may have recently lost his arm. Leviathon 16:04, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * He also seems to have a fake eye. Maybe he got under a truck or something.
 * Or perhaps this is a mere bug, as his shoulder is hanging in the air freely.-- K )  (talk) 17:31, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The bones for his model show it acts as if a arm is still there but it is not settup like his arm that is there. It somewhat seems like something will be attached to his arm . So maybe it is a bug guess we will see though when groups start getting to him on the PTR. Leviathon 19:48, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * et, merci Boubouille. 8'd-- K )  (talk) 20:34, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * No one is badduh dan him dude :p Leviathon 20:41, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Certain types of attacks (like fire and acid) may prevent trolls from regenerating (as is the case with D&D trolls). Certain weapons, such as Trol'kalar, can also prevent regeneration. It's possible that Zul'jin lost his eye and arm to such an attack. Egrem 04:24, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It can be, but then, it happened after the Second War, since he had both arms and both eyes while fighting with the "Evil Horde". Wonder if Blizzard will put a bit more of background for him or just they dropped him like a rag doll into the shredder just to get rid of oldie important characters from the past in order to don't make more "lore" about'em (wich I think it is currently happening). He also drops some Ancient Aqir Artifact wich I wonder from where he picked it up, and also have an interested adding for the Zandali page in form of Jin'rohk, The Great Apocalypse.
 * I liked him better with the teal scarf...-- Ravenore, the Necroshadowmancer 17:57, 27 October 2007 (UTC)


 * So he lost his arm around the time of the second war, by cutting it off himself, and it still hasn't regenerated? Blizzard contradicted themselves again...,


 * In the trailer for ZA, it shows his severed arm lying among some burning ruins. It's likely he suffered quite a few burns during his escape, which may explain why his arm never grew back (fire prevents troll regeneration). --IDWGH 08:51, 17 November 2007


 * "All trolls possess astonishing physical resilience: they can heal grievous physical injuries and regenerate lost limbs. This accelerated rate of healing makes trolls formidable adversaries on the field of battle".

--Baggins 04:45, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Zul'jin's scarf Do we know why he hides his lower face with a scarf? Or does he just like it that way? (Omega2010 04:57, 14 November 2007 (UTC))

Uuh... is the ZA trailer on the site? I just have to watch it! If it's there: Lazy me! --The Lich King 16:38, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Official Zul'Aman Information, including wallpaper and flash trailer; watch it, it's really good! So excited when the Sunwell trailer will come out, elveses are my faavourite race =)))) --  Shandris   talk / contribs  17:24, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I would guess his arm never grew back since he cauterized the wound to keep himself from bleeding to death possibly since he wasn't in a area where he could control the bleeding in another way which would cause it not to grow back. Leviathon 19:43, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually if that was an issue, then no trolls would regenerate most likely. As bleeding would probably be an issue no matter which way you take it, and cauterizing is the most common way to control bleeding. From the biology page it seems that wouldn't be much of an issue since they all have "fast regeneration", i.e. blood would likely be regenerated faster than it could be lost. Infact its implied by the website that this kind of miraculous regeneration can occur while they are on the field of battle, the least likely place one would be able to prevent blood loss.Baggins 19:47, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

The difference is that other trolls may have lost their limbs in better places than an enemies encampment while possibly being pursued the moment he was noticed gone. And the whole regeneration thing never goes into detail of how big of the limb being lost can be quickly restored it could mean simple things like the bottom of a foot, finger or a hand not a entire arm from the shoulder. It could also just be solely from his age slowing the regeneration process and him knowing that. Think this is just one of those things that could be argued forever and is better just accepted. Leviathon 19:52, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Losing a limb in battle is no better than losing it in an enemy encampment, neither is being pursued. Infact someone running is probably in a better condition than someone directly combat with others that can cause even more damage. Also, sorry, but a limb by definition is "a leg or arm of a human being", a toe or finger is "digit", a hand or a foot is not "limb", but its own seperate organ. Age is the best explanation you have given. He was already supposed to have been old when he joined during the second war, perhaps his regeneration isn't as good as it once was, or perhaps he has lost his arm a few more times since then :p... The Reventusk never mentioned him losing his arm, and it seems that would have been something important for them to mention when they mentioned him.Baggins 20:02, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Trandoshans in Star Wars work the same way; they can regenerate lost limbs, but they lose that ability as they get older. If Zul'jin was considered old around the time of Tides of Darkness, he's definately old now - two decades is a long time, ya know. --Joshmaul 22:19, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * In addition to his old age, he was probably starved while chained to that pillar. Regeneration could require a great deal of energy. Egrem 17:02, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, I don't think starvation was an issue after he got back to his people, unless of course there is only a short period in which regeneration can take place and if there isn't enough energy during that time it won't happen, and the wound just seal over. However this opens up another issue, one would think that for any of the explanations involving acid, or cauterizing, all one would need to do is reopen the wound beyond where the damage took place later, so that there were fresh exposed cells for the regeneration process to begin. If age is the issue it might still prevent/slow regeneration (again I think age is the best explanation).


 * Oddly enough that article is the only article that actually makes reference to limb regeneration as far as I know. I don't recall seeing it in the RPG, or other sources.Baggins 19:42, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

However, there is a regeneration spell that healers can use that causes full regernation of lost parts,


 * The subject’s severed body members (fingers, toes, hands, feet, arms, legs, tails, or even heads of multiheaded creatures), broken bones and ruined organs grow back. After the spell is cast, the physical regeneration is complete quicky if the severed members are present and touching the creature. It takes longer to grow back parts otherwise. Regenerate also cures damage, rids the subject of exhaustion and fatigue, and eliminates all nonlethal damage the subject has taken. It has no effect on nonliving creatures (including undead).

There are no known limitations to the spell, other than the fact it won't work on undead. As for trolls best I can tell in the rpg they only have "fast healing", which only heals wounds fast, but has no regeneration component.--Baggins 19:55, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * "All trolls possess astonishing physical resilience: they can heal grievous physical injuries and regenerate lost limbs. This accelerated rate of healing makes trolls formidable adversaries on the field of battle." Quoted from the Blizzard site (link right at the top under health). So it is quite a wonder why he has not regenerated his arm as is stated on the wow site aswell he cut it off with a "fallen" spear. --Kulrak 20:20, 15 November 2007

Hmm ya it also uses the qualifier, "all trolls" rather than "young or old trolls". That also causes a bit of a problem as far as the way its worded.Baggins 21:33, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Blizzard are totally ignoring their own lore. I know metzen even stated in an article somewhere that he forgot about the warcraft 3 manual when he was writing about Sergeras (I think it was sergeras anyway). Absolute shame they did this to Zul'jin, sometimes makes me wonder why they do not make some form of market research into what more fans would actually want to see rather than assuming we want lore figures dead.--Kulrak 22:31, 15 November 2007


 * Actually some argue that Metzen knew well that what warcraft 3 manual said and actually chose to "forget" about it, and change it on purpose. Actually I think they design the games more what players want from a market standpoint, than what lore fans want. Lore fans make up a very small percentage of Warcraft fans, and there are alot of player's that play not because its warcraft, but because the game is fun.Baggins 23:49, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps fire was part of the torture. If they knew about troll regeneration, they'd know to use fire to keep something from coming back. Or perhaps they just messed up. You pick.--Austin P 09:14, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually austin p, as far as I know in DnD (not Warcraft RPG) it removal of arms with fire magic or fire based weaponry that would stop regeneration, the fire had to cut through the flesh and bone. It had to involve pure cauterizing of the wound through the bone. A mere flesh burn would only slow regeneration of the local flesh, but not the deep flesh or bones. In anycase, these weaknesses don't exist in the Warcraft RPG as far as I can find for regeneration in general (regeneration doesn't even exist on trolls in the rpg, only fast healing), so I think this is more of a mess up.


 * Especially if you consider this other info;
 * This is not the first time that a troll has lost an arm and failed to grow it back. Second Troll Legend: The tale of Gri'lek the Wanderer describes another troll who had to become left-handed because he had lost his right arm. Additionally, in the first issue of the World of Warcraft Comic, Stranger in a Strange Land, the human protagonist severs the arm of a Darkspear Troll named Trusk; moments later, the team owner mentions that he "won't be able to regenerate that arm".


 * It seems that maybe whoever wrote the Troll Compendium may have exaggerated what regeneration can do, :p.... Apparently limbs can't grow back.Baggins 17:22, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Or its another "We mearly forgot" situation.--Kulrak 17:26, 17 November 2007


 * Probably not since the RPG lore never supported full limb regeneration either, and some of the material predated that website, and some after it. Does anyone know if the novels ever brought up limb regeneration?Baggins 00:21, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Not that I can recall.--Austin P 14:19, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I was able to find one passage that supports troll regeneration being hampered by fire. Arathor and the Troll Wars--Austin P 15:32, 18 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Another reason for cauterizing the wound could of been to not leave a trail of blood while escaping as I doubt even troll regeneration stops bleeding instantly. Leviathon 18:57, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Austin, I might be reading it wrong, but that story seems to be talking about injury regeneration, like that mentiond in Warcraft II, or the RPG's "fast healing", rather than full limb regeneration. I don't think there are many sources that support the idea of full limb regeneration at all. It certainly doesn't exist in the RPG, and that new comic doesn't appear to support it either.

As for bleeding obviously bleeding to death wouldn't be an issue. However, if limb regeneration is as fast as biology website implied it was (I.E. capable of happening within battle), then then its not likely he would have bled much. Personally though I'm starting to think the info about limb generation is bunk by whatever author wrote that article, and whoever wrote the info about forest trolls The Founding of Quel'Thalas. I don't think that kind of regeneration was supported by any other sources, and other sources appear to deny it. As for RPG "regeneration" the way it works, it seems it can heal any kind of wound including burns, then start the regeneration process... :p.Baggins 19:01, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

You misunderstood me. You said you couldn't recall the fire/acid weakness being mentioned in the RPG, so I posted a passage that does mention the fire weakness.--Austin P 20:47, 18 November 2007 (UTC)


 * You posted a passage that wasn't from the rpg. So obviously the weakness exists in older lore. It just wasn't established in the RPG rules for some reason. In the RPG there is no such weakness. Also as for acid, we still haven't found any passages mentioning that have we?Baggins 16:32, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure someone has to have meantioned it elsewhere by now but i haven't seen it meantioned here so im going to post it. The Comic (just picked it up today) has some new information. So i don't spoil too much all i'm going to say is that its very clearly presented to us that trolls can not regenerate arms. Those who have read the issue will see what i mean. 08:32, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

But you said " In anycase, these weaknesses don't exist in the Warcraft RPG as far as I can find for regeneration in general (regeneration doesn't even exist on trolls in the rpg, only fast healing), so I think this is more of a mess up." which would indicate that fire weakness has never been mentioned, since you rule it out as a possibility.--Austin P 23:57, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


 * No, what I was saying in the RPG burning isn't a weakness to regeneration or fast healing, infact the rules for those abilities state they can heal any kind of damage. Burns are a type of damage. There are simply no limitations to the abilities rules in the RPG.Baggins 00:02, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Scary
This is just my opnion but, this guy looks like the whimpiest boss in game. I mean he's an old overwight, one-armed troll. How scary is that?  Mr.X8  Talk Contribs  00:05, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Looks kind of lanky to me...but I guess he's like that Rastakhan dude in the RPG: older than dirt and ridiculous looking, but when he says "don't mess wit da bad guy", you don't mess with the bad guy. --Super Bhaal 00:40, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

True... I just wish Blizz had made a scarier looking looking mob. I mean look at Kael, in Warcaft he was a sissy little mage. Now he's a 10 foot demonically powered Bloodmage in the Eye. Same with Illidan, nothing special, till WoW where he's like 20 feet and much cooler looking.  Mr.X8  Talk Contribs  00:45, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I think they increased the sizes of the characters to make them easier to target. Still, Illidan's size increase could be explained by the Fel-Sworn class in the WoW RPG.  --Super Bhaal 01:41, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I'd blame it on the graphics before I blame it on anything else. Few characters look as big in warcraft 3 as they actually are.--Austin P 02:18, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm rather sure they have increased their size in order to make them look mightier. I mean, how cool would Kel'Thuzad look if looked just like any ordinary lich? It's no coincidence that only end-bosses in big raid instances have gone through this transformation. Edwin VanCleef, and all other 5-man instance bosses have the same size as an ordinary individual. The "easier to target"-argument is weak.--Odolwa 12:22, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

It's not likely that Illidan is fel-sworn based on the lore and requirements behind becoming a fel-sworn. Its a bit different than known history of how Illidan became a demon.Baggins 21:36, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Eh, that was just the explanation I provided at the WW boards when someone inquired as to why he was so tall, but now that I think about it that was a bad call on my part. Whoops!

But I guess since the characters in question were big in lore they'd have to get a big model in WoW ( basically, what Odolwa said, as well as making special armor and then not letting players have something that looked like it. ).  I'd hate to see what Uther, Doomhammer, and Lothar'd look like  ( ghost doesn't count )...Arthas already looks like he's going to dwarf Nazgrel. --Super Bhaal 18:49, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

This conversation have nothing to do about Zul'jin, talk about it somewhere else.  Mr.X8  Talk <font color="#000000" title="Don't think of it as spam, think of it as me spreading my teachings">Contribs  17:58, 17 November 2007 (UTC)


 * So, us discussing Zul'jin and his sudden growth spurt has nothing to do with Zul'jin? Sure, I threw some examples in, but we're still talking about him.  --Super Bhaal 18:12, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh sorry, I was just skimming and I saw only the parts on Illidan and Kael being bigger. <span style="padding:0px; margin-left:0px; font-size:85%;"> Mr.X8  <font color="#DEB887" title="If you're going to bother me, you better have a good reason...">Talk <font color="#000000" title="Don't think of it as spam, think of it as me spreading my teachings">Contribs  00:23, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Poor Zul'jin
You know, I could kind of sympathize with the forest trolls before this, because it was their land to begin with and the elves started the war. It's been justified all this time by people saying "well, trolls are bad, they didn't deserve the land" or some such thing, but talking to the Revantusks is proof that not all forest trolls are evil.

Now I've seen what the blood elves have become, and I've seen the trailer with them cutting out Zul'jin's eye over his screams, and I feel sorry for the guy. If the belves are gonna keep a naaru captive and bleed it dry until it dies, and if they're gonna torture their enemies like that, they don't have any more right to Quel'thalas than the trolls did. Possibly less.

Last night a guy said that Zul'jin was a bitter old man, who had a reason to be bitter, and that he almost felt bad about murdering him. Almost.

As for me, I'm gonna feel bad about killing him, no question. I think I'll feel even worse about it than killing Illidan (yes!), because while Illidan's gone power-mad and has become more cruel than the WC3 Illidan, Zul'jin just wants back what is his, and he has suffered unjustly at the hands of his enemies.--Illidan Rocks 13:57, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Personally I will never kill Zul'jin. All trolls to me are great and I do not understand why we have Blood elves and not Jungle Trolls on our side. Why not side with the Jungle Trolls and lay siege to the Blood elves just as the old horde did. How can the blood elves forget that? (Plus pretty characters belong with the alliance, as we all know.) Zul'jin is loved by all trolls as he should be. His actions are legendary as he is and Blizzard should pay more attention to the Lore and do what the FANS want rather than just pissing us off. (Of course here I am just generalizing and claiming that all fans do not want him dead but I must say most RPers on my own realm [horde of course] are angry about his death.) GG blizzard.--Kulrak 20:03, 15 November 2007


 * If pretty races belong on Alliance, then what're the Forsaken doing on the Horde? I hope if they novelize any of this, Zul'jin doesn't go Cranky Old Man With Sharp Objects and declare war on everybody, but rather goes out like a hero defending his people from the Scourge or some other malevolent force.  --Super Bhaal 20:10, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Could not agree more Bhaal. Zul'jin is one of the greatest trolls to ever grace Azeroth. Though I love his quote on the Blizzard offical movie for the patch ('Dis is our land: you wanna stay, you stay here forever! We gonna bury you here.) Makes him sound so good. And I also agree with Illidan Rocks, he is just defending his land, the land of his people and if we all know our Lore Trolls were one of the first land races on Azeroth. --Kulrak 20:19, 15 November 2007


 * The Forsaken aren't pretty, unless your into necrophilia. Now some troll females are pretty, so are some orc females, and definitely blood elves.Baggins 21:10, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * That wasn't very nice. At least I don't have to pay for expensive dinners.  --Super Bhaal 02:43, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Of course blood elves are pretty, but me and a friend were discussing how horde seems to be mainly "monsters" and blood elves, although fair in appearance seem to be very evil and that is not what the horde is ! The old horde maybe but not Thralls horde. And mainly in all races females are fairer than their male counterparts. --Kulrak 22:34, 15 November 2007


 * You might be interested in checking the talk page, for World of Warcraft: The Comic, for the various views of what the Horde is to Blizzard according to Metzen, and what their intent that the comics will establish about the Horde. Also check Forsaken about Blizzard's lore about them. They are actually worse than the blood elves. The blood elves are actually not as bad overall. According to Monster Guide the majority aren't even evil.Baggins 23:51, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you. Every time I see someone say "blood elves aren't evil" my eyes just...they light up.   ; ;  --Super Bhaal 02:43, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * When I read "pretty" and "female" in the context of Warcraft, one word came to mind: dwarf. Enough sad there. ;-) But no, BEs aren't evil... They just drank the kool-aid (or I guess magic) on Kael'thas. Would be interesting to see storyline-wise what happens with the new Sunwell raid - kind of hard to keep saying "they just don't know what's going on" when they've been to TK and Kael(?) is at their front door. Nunuka 23:56, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Ah yes the warcraft comic, I believe I will be buying into that, I am a fan of warcraft lore which is why I obviously get angry about what happens if I disagree with it. To be honest if the horde is not supposed to be evil they just toss out both the forsaken and the elves, but then they would have even more enemies to fight! So I suppose its a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". --Kulrak 00:08, 16 November 2007


 * That's the gist of their membership and why both start out as neutral with everyone else on the Horde side. Less because they want to get along and sing songs around a campfire like the Alliance and more out of convenience. Nunuka 00:13, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Ya, you can read more about it in the Horde article, as well as viewpoints orcs, trolls and tauren have for their eastern allies.Baggins 00:27, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

As for Sunwell raid, from what I hear, majority of Quel'thalas blood elves are still support Kael'thas and actually make up some of the mobs in the instance. They believe their king is helping bring power back to the blood elf people, and remove the addiction they suffer.

Blood elf players however are the ones that have been to Outland and know his true motive and secret behind Kael'thas (the majority of Silvermoon is unaware however). More or less you are turning on your own people by siding with the Horde party members in that instance.Baggins 00:29, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I know we're only following the discussion but we have kind of gone off of the point of "Poor Zul'jin". But since you brought up the point of Kael'thas not dying it does bring the tiniest glimmer of hope that Illidan might not be dead. However, noting his last words and the fact that blizzard seem to stalk me and pick the very opposite of things that I want to happen it seems unlikely that he will not die. --Kulrak 00:53, 16 November 2007


 * Like I said before, the devs want to keep raiders happy and probably have to do so at the expense of the story. I'm sure when WoW inevitably ends  ( looking at 2012+.  Just sounds like a good/bad year. )  there'll be hundreds of thousands of novels and comics and cheesy Hercules-esque TV series to fill us in on what really happened/s  ( hoping for the latter ).  Still, I, like you, really like the idea of Zul'jin going out like a hero like Grom Hellscream or Uther the Lightbringer, or even Sylvanas Windrunner, and hope if what I said comes true, he will go out that way, in some blaze of glory befitting him.  --Super Bhaal 02:43, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

The elves who tortured Zul'jin didn't necessarily go on to become blood elves. There's no reason to assume they're even alive. As for the Troll Wars, in some descriptions it's said that the trolls attacked the elves when they moved to Azeroth, because they didn't want neighbors.--Austin P 09:17, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Appearantly there is no justice in WoW. I never thought Blood Elves could be that sadistic! We have no right to marsh into Zul'Aman and take from Zul'jin what is rightfully his! How can Vol'jin and the Darkspear trolls allow this? They meet Zul'jin and his Amani tribe every year at Zandalar Isle, where they live in peace and plan for the future. This is just outrageous.--Odolwa 11:42, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I've never really been a fan of Walt Simonson (He's writing the Warcraft story). I'm already disappointed that the protagonist of the first arc is an amnesiac human (And it's painfully obvious that he'll turn out to be Varian Wrynn) who becomes a gladiator within the Horde?  A human gladiator beating orcs that are 300 pounds heavier, 2 feet taller, faster and quicker than him?  Really?  Then he goes on to fight OGRES?  The faction bias is so laughably obvious, and while Chris Metzen is fighting elements within Blizzard to stop constantly portraying the Horde as "evil", he's obviously losing.  How many Horde races do we fight in high end instances compared to Alliance?  And my God, trolls.  I feel like I'm collecting Pokemon.  Gotta kill all subspecies!  We had Zul'Farrak, Zul'Gurub, Zul'Aman and in WotLK we have Zul'Drak.  Even a little moral ambiguity over the people we slaughter would be a nice change.  I was hoping for a Scarlet Crusade raid, but that seems extremely unlikely now since even they are not slowly becoming "the good guys" as they're helping the fight against Arthas in WotLK.


 * By the way, whatever happened to trolls regenerating their limbs? Clueless dev team strikes again!  Chris Metzen should sack the lot of them.  --- Zexx 20:01, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, the game wouldn't be that popular if we had to kill loads and loads of humans... And the Alliance is made of Humans, Human look alikes (Dwarves & Gnomes), Elves that everyone loves (but a few clever ones) and Draenei that have suffered the hell out.-- K )  (talk) 21:02, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Correction time. First off, the trolls meet at Zandalar every 6 years, not every year. Next, I've not come across a passage that claims that the leaders of the troll tribes meet at Zandalar, just trolls from all tribes. In fact, Zul'jin probably hasn't attended those meetings, otherwise his fate wouldn't have been unknown to the other trolls. The RPGs state that the Darkspear trolls have no problems with killing their evil brethen, so if Zul'jin is working against the Horde, Vol'jin's unlikely to back him. Finally, it's stated that the trolls discuss issues that affect all trolls, but that doesn't mean that they're planning for peace. The troll tribes so rarely get along that I find it highly unlikely that that's what they're doing.

As for the comic, the whole thing was Metzen's idea. Check Thrall's talk page. In fact, Metzen said he did BECAUSE a lot of people view the Horde as evil badasses. He personally views them as noble, but he wanted to show the bad side of the Horde for the people who view them as bad.--Austin P 23:08, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * A bit of clarification lest people think it was a Horde vs. Alliance matter, but the ones who want to see the bad side of the Horde are actually Horde players that roleplay their Horde characters as evil badasses, and Horde-fan game designers that view the Horde as evil. As far as we know this had nothing to do with Alliance players. So no, its not an Alliance-bias thing this time (apparently, it usually never is).Baggins 00:49, 17 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I am sure that some people who are fans of the horde, of course, will see the alliance as the evil ones. Evil depends on what side your on usually. Oh and just found out about the Zul'drak zone on WoTLK. I swear if I have to kill Ice Trolls I am just going to spam the hell out of the WoW forums. --Kulrak 17:30, 17 November 2007


 * Actually we were discussing the viewpoint for the comic, and how it arose. It had nothing to do with how gamers view each other in-game. The comic itself arose out of ideas Metzen was hearing from his horde-playing staff who believe the Horde are evil badasses, and wanted to see the dark side of the Horde.Baggins 17:33, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Right I got that, I was just tossing in some random thoughts. Metzen confuses me sometimes to be honest. --Kulrak 19:15, 17 November 2007

Ice trolls haven't been shown to be good. What's the problem with killing them?--Austin P 01:46, 18 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Perhaps overuse of troll related instances? Not making the areas exploreable zones?Baggins 02:11, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Problem with killing Ice trolls is that Ice trolls seem kick ass. Thats why. I personally like all trolls. --Kulrak 02:20, 18 November 2007

But the ice trolls are evil, so it makes sense story wise to kill them.--Austin P 02:22, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Where is it stated that they are evil? I doubt any official source would use such a vague term as "evil". Besides, you can't condemn a person to death only because he is evil: He will need to have done an evil act in order for that to happen.--Odolwa 20:27, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

It's stated numerous times throughout the RPG books that most trolls are vile creatures. You're giving them too much credit. Yes, in real life it wouldn't be realistic for a race to be universally evil, but this is fiction and in fiction it's very common.--Austin P 20:51, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Warcraft 3 manual, page 86 "Though the horde allied itself with the evil forest trolls during the Second War, the alliance was short lived due to the Horde's eventual defeat". Page 96 "With surprising ease, he [the Lich King] enslaved the minds of many indigenous creatures, such as ice trolls and the fierce wendigo - and drew their evil brethern into his growing shadow." Page 140 "[Forest trolls] are vile creatures for the most part, practicing voodoo, ritual sacrifices, and in some cases -though never documented, cannibalism....They hold all races in contempt and will only work with others if it means the possible elmination of a more hated enemy." Page 141 "Like their evil forest troll cousins, ice trolls revel in carnage and wickedness." Pages 99-103 of the Manual of Monsters describes the four main troll species, and their alignments are listed as "usually chaotic evil". The text also restates the information found in the Warcraft 3 manual. Monster Guide, page 137 "Like most trolls, ice trolls are evil beings...Ice trolls are generally evil". Alliance & Horde Compendium, page 23 "Most trolls are vicious, brutal and evil...With the exception of the Darkspear tribe, trolls are evil and dangerous creatures. They are a threat to all intelligent races. Darkspears have no qualms about slaying their vile brethern." Page 64 "Most jungle trolls are evil savages and practitioners of terrible, bloody magics." Page 65 "They know they owe their lives and loyalty to Thrall and his noble pursuits, but before the orcs came, they were accumstomed to brutal and evil lives." Horde Player's Guide, page 10 "Like all trolls, most forest trolls are savage and violent...Forest trolls of all types war with anything in range of their territory, even other tribes of forest trolls, and thus the Revantusks feel no remorse over slaying their wild brothers." Page 86 "The orcs were a peaceful race before their demonic corruption, but the jungle trolls come from a gleefully bloodthirsty history. Even now, some Darkspear trolls don't quite understand the Horde's objection to their old way of life, but they dutifully tone down their rituals to avoid upsetting their new friends." Page 93 "The Darkspear trolls come from a dark and bloodthirsty history of sacrifice, cannibalism and black magic." Page 143, "Anyone who ever met a jungle troll knows how savage and merciless these creatures can be. These wily humanoids are brutal, cruel and evil fiends who constantly wage war against civilized societies. They are especially fond of slaughtering the 'inferior' races - as they call those who rely more on magic than on brute force." Page 158 "After the death of Gul'dan, however, it was painfully obvious that the Horde was not going to win, and the forest trolls ditched the orcs. Forest trolls were never known for their honor or integrity, unlike some better races out there."

That's only some of the passages that confirm the fact that most trolls are evil.--Austin P 21:19, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if they are described as evil. Being vile in nature doesn't give us right to drive an entire people from their ancestral homeland.--Odolwa 23:30, 18 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Nay, of course, but it gives some the right to exterminate them... Well I shouldn't be saying that, as I defend the Trolls in the first place. TROLLIDOS UNIDOS JAMAS SERAN VENCIDOS! Trolls, unite! Defend your Forest brethren!-- K )  (talk) 23:32, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Zul'jin's not staying in place. He plans to take back everything the trolls once had. It's ludicrous to think that the other races are just going let him kill them. As for the original troll wars, I've already mentioned that some passages state that the trolls attacked the elves when they tried to settle and had been having conflicts with the humans. It's not always described as the elves attacking the trolls as soon as they got there. Then there's all the statements indicating that trolls make bad neighbors. Lands of Mystery says that the ice trolls attack the tuskarr, and I find it unlikely that the tuskarr have done anything to the trolls, given what we know of their nature.--Austin P 03:11, 19 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Wasn't there a few hints of the Drak'karri working with the Scourge to some degree?Baggins 03:35, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I could see them working with the Scourge in a way considering Drak'Tharon Keep has a instance entrance in Zul'drak. Though we know for sure we will be attacking the Ice Trolls quite a bit in WotLK anyway regardless and could see Gundrak as a instance itself. Leviathon 14:22, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I rather believe the Drakkari trolls will be a faction in the Aldor/Scryer pattern, in Dalaran. Check my faction-theory for more details: http://www.wowwiki.com/Talk:Dalaran/Analysis--Odolwa 15:08, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Baggins: Then why is that Chris Metzen spoke at Blizzcon about how the game developers (Notably Jeff Kaplan) prefer to see the Horde as "evil" and the Alliance as "good", despite Metzen's attempts at trying to add moral ambiguity in the game? I mean just sit there and think about it. I'm sure Chris Metzen had lots of ideas for dungeons that simply did not fly because most of the developers felt players would feel uncomfortable being in an instance killing humans or dwarves instead of the traditionally "evil" races, or heroes of the "evil" faction. The only Alliance heroes to die from WarCraft 2 were Anduin Lothar and Uther Lightbringer, both in WarCraft games where Metzen had a large hand in. Since WoW, Cho'gall, Bladefist, Doomhammer, Gorefiend, Hellscream and now Zul'jin all lie dead.

As for the comic, I'm not talking about Chris Metzen deciding to make an Thrall equivalent character. I'm talking about the decision to make him a gladiator fighting combatants who are much bigger, stronger, faster and quicker than he is. It's a stupid story angle to take. If he was something like an engineer it'd be much more interesting. It makes sense because Alliance engineering is superior to Horde, and he is too dangerous to keep alive yet also too valuable to kill. --- Zexx 05:20, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I disagree with you on the last bit. I think you overestimate the physical advantage orcs and other beefy races have over humans. It's definetly there and definetly a huge factor in battle but not anything so great it can't be overcome. Most humans going one on one with an orc of equal talent, training, intelligence, etc... would be quickly beaten, but a few humans have been shown to be perfectly capable of going one on one (sometimes even more) against orcs and trolls. Not to meantion this isn't a fist fight but often involves weaponry which steals a bit of brute strenght's advantage and humans are often more level headed and more stratigic than many members of the horde or other races (Many, not all). See Anduin Lothar, Llane Wyrnn (Varian's father, Turalyon, etc....This Lo'gosh isn't being presented as a bread merchant from stormwind all of a sudden going one on one with azeroth's greatest gladiators. He's a hero, an exceptional person, his feats are going to be greater than that of most. An engineer hero might be a good angle for another medium but for a comic book a warrior is really what works best. It's far from unbelievable. Of things to happen in warcraft that are unbelievable this definetly ranks at the bottom. 05:40, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


 * "Since WoW, Cho'gall, Bladefist, Doomhammer, Gorefiend, Hellscream and now Zul'jin all lie dead." Wait, what? The game designers have little power over what goes in the books, so discredit Cho'gall. Doomhammer "died" before WoW came out. Hellscream died at the end of war3. So... um. That leaves all of 3 dead due to WoW. --Sky (talk | con | wh ) 05:48, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Warthok: First of all, you are insinuating that orcs are less intelligent fighters than a human, which is totally untrue.  Second, you're underestimating the gap of physical ability.  The average human is six feet tall.  The average orc is 7.5 feet.  The average human weighs about 180 pounds.  The average orc?  Around 400.  That's four hundred pounds of sheer muscle, which means four hundred pounds of speed AND strength.  Using weapons would mean the orc has a GREATER advantage, because not only does the orc have significantly more reach, he can also use a much larger and dangerous weapon.  He doesn't need to be as accurate because the weapon would be massive, and since the orc is much more powerful, he could send his blow straight through a human's parry or block.  Anduin Lothar was an exception because he was described as being massive for a human, and in the first two wars, the Alliance were getting slaughtered by the Horde war machine.  Why?  Because they are far more physically superior.  By the end of the Second War Capital City was about to be sieged, with Khaz Modan and Quel'thalas already razed, and Stormwind burned to the ground a decade earlier.  The only reason the Alliance managed to secure a victory was insurrection within the Horde.  There are many factors in a fight, but when the opponent is bigger, stronger AND faster than you, the outcome is obvious.  Especially in an environment like a gladiatorial ring, you won't find any stupid gladiators, because stupid gladiators end up dead.  I know what I'm talking about.  I've been doing martial arts for a big chunk of my life, and I'm a big fight fan.  In fact my friend managed to secure me and some guys floor seats at the UFC fight in Newark a few days ago.


 * To Sky: The issue is with how they deal with the progressing storyline of Horde heroes.  Don't quote Doomhammer "dying", because he's dead period.  When we come into BC, the previous heroes we had in the Horde ilke Zul'jin, Bladefist and Gorefiend are presented as raid bosses.  Yet the Alliance Expedition heroes are all still loyal, and all are confirmed alive.  Why is that?  Why is there this double standard that Horde heroes are all either completely corrupt or capable of redemption [b]OUTSIDE[/b] of the WoW storyline, but Alliance heroes remain virtuous, alive and never become the subject of a raid?  This retconning has a double standard, and it was an issue Chris Metzen had beef with.  Many things he suggests to promote lore within the game or moral ambiguity between factions is dismissed by the other devs.  One of the most famous cases is when he fought tooth and nail for character creation of the Sentinel classes to be female only (Priestess, rogue, hunter, warrior) and the only druids you could make were night elf males.  This was dismissed because it was seen as too restrictive to gameplay decisions by the rest of the dev team.  At the beginning of WoW the moral ambiguity was much more prevalent, but into BC, it's been slowly regressing back to the typical fantasy layout of "Good Guys" and "Bad Guys" instead of something more along the lines of Soviet Union and United States.  They're becoming moral powers instead of remaining political.  --- Zexx 20:50, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Again. This human is exceptional, not ordinary. And we have many cases of humans going up against orcs, trolls, ogres, etc... one on one and coming out on top. Lothar, Turalyon, Uther, etc...Weapons reduces the advantage as a less powerful foe can strike a killing blow. The better the weapon the less advantage strenght will give you. 300 pounds of muscle or not a good swipe to the neck or other vunerable spot is a death sentance. And while orcs are definetly as inteligent as humans, many rely more on their bloodlust than stratagy, and we know this human is a highly stratigic fighter. This is far less true in Thrall's Horde but still present. The Orcs may be larger and stronger (on average) but not nessesarly faster and not nessesarly smarter. The only way it is reasonable to call this situation "unrealistic" is to go back and say the same in every other case of a human beating out an orc in every novel, game, etc... published by blizzard. Your claim seems highly out of place. And yes i know what i'm talking about as well, you are speaking to a Black Belt of 11 years, and a regional chmapion. 21:27, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

"I'm sure Chris Metzen had lots of ideas for dungeons that simply did not fly because most of the developers felt players would feel uncomfortable being in an instance killing humans or dwarves instead of the traditionally "evil" races, or heroes of the "evil" faction"

Have you seen any comments that say that? It's not a good idea to be "sure" of something if you have no proof of it. I think the main reason for having so many horde-race instances is that the races history of evil goes back longer than the Alliance's. While every race has their sins, the Alliance hasn't immersed themselves in darkness as much as the orcs and trolls used too. And the Horde was the bad guy from Orcs & Humans to Beyond the Dark Portal, the corruption angle not having been worked in until Lord of the Clans, which is probably why the original horde heroes are more likely to be killed then the original Alliance heroes, who were never evil. To be clear, I wouldn't be surprised if the developers have an Alliance-bias, but I think there are tangible story reasons for the Horde-instances.--Austin P 14:10, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Please be serious. 11 year black belt and regional champion? Of what? So apparently, you've never heard of weight rankings?

First off, please, I beg you Warthok, don't talk about these things like you know them. I used to intern at the Met in NYC and I've worked with the medieval arms department extensively. Strength and size is a MASSIVE factor in armed combat. Do you have any idea how hard it is to aim for a vital like the neck or the heart? But if you're 500 pounds of pure muscle fighting some 200 pound pipsqueak, you can swing the sword you're using that is twice as long as his (Because you're 2 feet taller), break right through his weak block and cleave his body in half. It is a HUGE HUGE factor. Of course the average human being beating the average orc is unrealistic -- this is why they were getting completely obliterated in the first two wars. My claim isn't "highly out of place". It's verified by the fact that the Alliance lost Stormwind, Quel'thalas, Alterac [b]AND[/b] Khaz Modan, while the territory was never conceded by the Horde. Why? Because the orcs were physically and mentally superior.


 * Ever heard of open divisions? Once again your claim that its impossible is out of place. It's highly unprobable but far from impossible. There were many factors as to why the orcs won the first war and almost won the second, but physical strenght is just one factor of many. Using that as reasoning for the outcome of a gladiator match is highly forced. 20:26, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

And to Austin P: Search YouTube for the Blizz Con interviews. Chris Metzen was very vocal about the faction tilt in this game being applied to everything -- including PvE dungeon lore, which is why he assured players that in WotLK, he'll be at the forefront of making s. This is why in the beginning you saw a good spread of instances of how the Alliance can become corrupted or create people who feel the need to turn to crime (carlet Crusade, Syndicate), insane night elves (DM), Dark Irons (BRD), etc. Then when MC was patched in and Blizz got new developers formerly of SOE, Metzen had less say on each of the instances. His last big project was Karazhan, which he talked about in the New York Times.

The point is, it doesn't matter if the Old Horde was evil, because Horde heroes can be retconned as we've obviously seen. I'm seeing there's a bias because Horde heroes are either irredeemably evil or ocassionally noble, but Alliance heroes are always steadfast and completely loyal. The only bad apple was Arthas. All the other Alliance heroes from Warcraft 1 - 3 either died valiantly or are still portrayed as "good". That, and it's also incredibly boring that we kill the same, typical fantasy bad guy fodder, which is disappointing for a game that prides itself on breaking stereotypes. Chris Metzen loves to turn that stuff up on its head -- tree hugging dark elves, demonic high elves, benevolent demons, noble orcs, etc. But we still kill the same stuff for raids. Zombies, dragons, giant bugs, orcs, every known race of troll (Zul'Farrak, Zu'Gurub, Zul'Aman and soon Zul'Drak), naga, etc. Some of the more interesting things we can be raiding against like a sect of insidious kaldorei, a Syndicate raid instance, a branch of the draenei secretly spying for the Legion, etc are never explored. --- Zexx 18:02, 22 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Then when MC was patched in and Blizz got new developers formerly of SOE, Metzen had less say on each of the instances. His last big project was Karazhan, which he talked about in the New York Times. If you had any proof of this, I would be surprised. 20:35, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

The impression I get is that the First War was won largely because the Horde vastly outnumbered Stormwind. King Llane's assassination was a large factor, and there wasn't anything elaborate about that. Garona might not even have done it if Medivh hadn't screwed with her mind during the last fight against him. Medivh's actions in general is probably the reason for Stormwind's disadvantages during the First War.

From reading Tides of Darkness, I think that the Alliance didn't have sufficient time to prepare for the war. This is even stated by Khadgar, who doubts that the paladins would have had enough time to train to make a difference. The elves, dwarves and gnomes didn't even join until after the war started, so they definately didn't have time to build up their defenses. And while the Horde may have lost because of internal fighting, the Alliance had their own problems as well. Alterac's betrayal, of course and the fact that Gilneas only offered token support. Even the Horde's rebellous factions helped out more than they did. Gul'dan contributed most of the Horde's magical might and Rend and Maim were not shown to directly work against Orgrim even though they despised him. War is far too complicated to say that the only factor is which side is stronger. The Vietnam War is the most obvious example. Baggins could probably give you more, he seems to know his history.

Lastly, calling the orcs mentally superior is a big stretch. These days it's probably more equal footing, although in different ways. But in regards to fighting, most sources I've read indicate that the orcs don't usually have as much finesse as the Alliance does. It makes since, because of their strength and bloodlust an orc fighter could get away with having less skill than a human fighter.--Austin P 14:31, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Most of the people writting the story for dungeons are just powergamers from Everquest living in their mom's basement so don't expect much. Anyway Warcraft 3 was full of Alliance heroes dying stupidly if thats what you want,other then Jaina every one of their heroes was a joke in that game. Zarnks 04:11, 6 January 2008 (UTC) Zarnks 04:11, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Austin P: The orcs are mentally superior in combat. It's the difference between a society of survivalists and warriors (Orcs, obviouslY) compared to humans who are largely farmers in green lands and city folk. Overall as a race, they're simply much more capable in combat. Humans actually outnumbered orcs historically from the beginning of the war, and were equip with superior weapons, yet the orcs still managed to win. Why? Because they were a race of warriors who's armies were already filled with veterans, and they were simply physically superior. The elves, dwarves and gnomes may have joined only in the beginning of the Second War, but the ogres and trolls weren't present until the Second War either, and the goblins as well.

Also I think Baggins would also tell you that we were [b]WINNING[/b] in Vietnam. 50,000 coalition casualties (Not just US, but all the troops present in Vietnam.. Many Americans don't realize that the Republic of Korea also sent 3 entire battalions as a gesture of thanks for the Korean War.) compared to 1,000,000 Viet Cong? Those were great numbers. The reason why the war was lost was because of extreme lack of public support -- obviously this is not applicable to the First and Second Wars at all. Vietnam was a war over ideology where the indigenous people already wanted nothing to do with converting to democracy. The First and Second Wars were simply wars of survival and conquest... Which the Horde was winning.

Kirkburn: Long time no see. I don't want to post the New York Times link to the Kara preview here because it'll break the page, but you can go to the Karazhan page right here on WoWWiki and click on it. It's one of the sources, and Chris Metzen was consulted on it for creative purposes because of his involvement in making Medivh and working alongside Jeff Grubb. http://youtube.com/watch?v=qfb1LPo08i4&feature=related  That's a video of the latest Raid & Dungeons Panel held at the last Blizzcon. You'll notice that Chris Metzen is not present there -- he's since been phased out and put in charge of overall Creative Development instead of having a hand in the dungeons produced. A lot of those present in the panel used to work for SOE, and many of the raids coming out nowadays are actually reminiscent of EQ. --- Zexx 19:02, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I may have misunderstood you, but my point regarding Vietnam was that the US lost even though they had the superior military, which illistrates that there's more to winning a war than who's the strongest. I still feel you're jumping to conclusions regarding the Horde's victory in the First War. For one thing, not many details regarding the battles of the war and individual victories has been revealed, making it difficult to pinpoint the strengths and weaknesses of each side. I can't recall seeing it exactly stated which side had more numbers, since certainly the whole of the Horde on Draenor would've been greater than the population of Azeroth. I also think you're downplaying how much of an effect Llane's death had on the total outcome of the war.--Austin P (talk) 16:48, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


 * HITLER NAZIS GODWIN PERIOD DONE.-- K )  (talk) 17:49, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Why do his hand and feet have a different skin color?
Anyone notice that yet? His body is bright green, but his hand and feet are dark green. Sort of a forest green. Pine.

When the screenshot of him first came out, I thought that maybe he had become undead and had different hands & feet grafted on for some reason, but that's obviously incorrect now.
 * --Baluki 12:20, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Probably bad circulation from wearing footwraps and handwraps, or burnt skin or someone forgot to color him right. --Super Bhaal 18:32, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

The undead trolls in the EPL have the same shade of hand and feet color as him, but their skin is like mummy colored. Maybe troll appendages don't decay when they die, just change colors. <span style="padding:0px; margin-left:0px; font-size:85%;"> Mr.X8  <font color="#DEB887" title="If you're going to bother me, you better have a good reason...">Talk <font color="#000000" title="Don't think of it as spam, think of it as me spreading my teachings">Contribs  17:57, 17 November 2007 (UTC)


 * If you have WoW Model Viewer and have downloaded the latest patch, one of the options under "Character" reads "Foresttroll". There are only male models  ( ...which can use a female jungle troll hairstyle. ), and all of them have hairy arms, chests, and legs.  Their feet and hands are a little darker than the rest of their skin.  For all we know it could be some troll war ritual or something...  --Super Bhaal 02:33, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Jungle Troll /cheer
/cheer: for zul´jin (cheering at zuljins dead body)

Sign your posts. But I agree. The playable trolls' cheer-emote is "For Zul'jin!". So why aren't the Darkspear Tribe stopping Thrall from attacking Zul'jin and Zul'Aman?--Odolwa 17:59, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Perhaps people should create a thread over at Blizzard's website pointing out all the inconsistencies they have created with this boss fight?Baggins 18:04, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Could they possibly be referring to another Zul'jin, theirs? As this seems to be a title rather than a name.-- K )  (talk) 18:24, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

How could it be a title? Zul'jin had the name Zul'jin even before he united the trolls and became a great hero among them.--Odolwa 23:29, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually K, when Horde Player's Guide discusses the "Zul'jin" and Revantusk, it is definitely referring to the Zul'jin in Warcraft II. I'm positive that the references to Zul'jin by the Revantusk in World of Warcraft, is also about the Zul'jin from warcraft II. We have never met any other Zul'jins ever. The possibility that there might be others exists, but that has nothing to do with this information.Baggins 02:33, 17 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Zul'jin and the Darkspear relation are probably gonna be similar to Kael'thas and Silvermoon (Playable Belfs). --Invin Dranoel 17:38, 17 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Zomg Baggins, of course I was not discussing the fact that the Revantusk are talking about this very same Zul'jin! I said that the one mentioned by the Darkspear in Warcraft III and WoW is another one, bearing "Zul'Jin" as a title (I was answering to the :

The playable trolls' cheer-emote is "For Zul'jin!". part.-- K )  (talk) 23:09, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no evidence from Blizzard to show that there is more than one Zul'jin, speculation about the name being a title is just that, speculation. So therefore we must assume that they speak of the same person. --Kulrak 02:21, 18 November 2007


 * Umm actually saying "no evidence from Blizzard" is wrong. WoWRPG which is a Blizzard source has stated (this of course is not speculation);


 * Troll names look simple but are surprisingly complex. Their language is largely syllabic, and various syllables can be added to the beginning or end of a troll’s name to denote status and ability. The suffix “’jin,” for example, refers to a tribal chief or elder, while the prefix “Zul’” describes a voodoo master. Troll given names are usually only one syllable, to facilitate the additions of these titles. Some trolls drop their given names altogether and are known purely by their titles; a great tribal witch doctor, for instance, might be called “Zul’jin.”


 * Note it calls "Zul'jin" a "title" for a great tribal witch doctor. Thus a seciton of the article has thet title, "name/title" and talks about Zul'jin as a title rather than a name.Baggins 03:10, 18 November 2007 (UTC)


 * True, true. Thanks Kulrak for assuming I was wrong in the first place...-- K )  (talk) 14:27, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Hmm maybe I should have researched more into that hehe... In that case from the quote you gave it is likely that the zul'jin we are talking about now dropped his name and uses that title as his name. --Kulrak 00:10, 20 November 2007

Sure, he was born Bob, Bob Troll. Zul'jin obviously sounds better. ;)03:26, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

The thing is, Zul'jin is no Witch Doctor. He is an Axe Thrower, and thefore the title-theory don't work.--Odolwa 15:37, 20 November 2007 (UTC)


 * It doesn't matter, Zul'jin is a title and not a name as far as we know. And Zul'jin is not only an axe thrower, it is assumed that he also is a hunter. And, according to his shapeshifting abilities, he is a witch doctor of some kind (he is not a druid, because he only interacts with ancient Troll spirits answering to the Amani, and not to any nature worshipper).-- K )  (talk) 16:18, 20 November 2007 (UTC)


 * To be fair I probably should point out that the troll naming convention we are discussing was mainly the naming convention and definition used by jungle trolls. Horde Player's Guide added additional information for forest troll naming conventions;


 * Forest trolls follow the same naming conventions as jungle trolls, though some of the suffixes and prefixes differ.
 * • Male Names: Doth, Mag, Ran, Vis.
 * • Female Names: Lith, Arn, Din, Mak.
 * • Family Names: Like jungle trolls, forest trolls have no family names.
 * Zul'jin probably has a similar meaning in forest troll society, but then again it might not. We don't know how much the dialects change depending on each culture.--Baggins 16:37, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Has Zul'jin shown any magical prowess? If not, then Blizzard's decision to have his name mean "great witch doctor" seems odd.--Austin P 14:37, 22 November 2007 (UTC)


 * He has, as a matter of fact. He transforms into the four animal gods of Zul'Aman and produces magical attacks.-- K )  (talk) 15:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

There are some very bad reconciliations being made on the forums that when the Darkspears say "For Zul'jin!" they are referring to Thrall, since Thrall is also a "Great Leader".

But other than that, I probably see a voice file revocation. Maybe the Darkspear trolls just think it's a sad necessity, and they do it out of duty to the Horde rather than any ill will towards Zul'jin.

Still trying to count down the days till we get to kill Turalyon or Alleria as a raid boss just because a dev decided it would be fun to throw a random lore character in there. --- Zexx 17:45, 22 November 2007 (UTC)


 * In the RPG he is a witch doctor too. So this is my theory: and if he dropped the name Jin'zakk in favor of the title Zul'jin? --N&#39;Nanz (talk) 16:25, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

First War what???
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/underdev/implemented/2p4.html

''During the First War, the Horde offered the forest trolls a place in the Horde. At that time Zul'jin refused, for he felt that his people needed no assistance in battling the elves.''

Can someone tell me how the orcs offered the Horde offered the forest trolls a place in the Horde in the First War. Zakolj 18:33, 17 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Read Tides of Darkness.Baggins 18:35, 17 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Will do as soon as I can thanks.

Also I think the page needs to be updated whit some of this info:


 * During the First War, the Horde offered the forest trolls a place in the Horde. At that time Zul'jin refused, for he felt that his people needed no assistance in battling the elves. He only agreed to join the Horde's ranks when the orcs proved their worth by rescuing a group of trolls shortly before the Second War began. Yet Zul'jin grew furious when Warchief Orgrim Doomhammer not only failed to destroy Quel'Thalas, but also abandoned the siege against the high elves in favor of an attack on Lordaeron. The forest trolls stayed behind and kept fighting. Zul'jin slaughtered countless elves, but even so, he was captured. Chained to a crumbling pillar, he endured hours of torture that cost him his right eye. When his captors were attacked by a small troll warband, the resourceful Zul'jin capitalized on the opportunity, using a fallen spear to cut off his own arm and secure his freedom. Returning home, he began rebuilding his army, and even as he remained behind Zul'Aman's walls, his legend grew.


 * Years later, as the trolls slowly recovered from their devastating defeat, Zul'jin learned that the high elves had nearly been annihilated by the Scourge. He planned a final campaign to end the bloodline of the elves permanently, but soon thereafter many of his mortal enemies (now calling themselves blood elves) joined the Horde. Furious at the Horde's latest betrayal, Zul'jin was pleased when the witch doctor Malacrass approached him with a devious plan to crush the elves once and for all. Malacrass had studied the Zandalari high priests and their ability to call upon the favor of the animal gods. He also knew that the elves had magically bound one of the mighty naaru, using it to channel the power of the Light into their own ranks. Malacrass had devised a similar plan: to seal the power of the animal gods within the bodies of the Amani's strongest warriors. Zul'jin quickly approved the plan and lent his full support. Malacrass experimented tirelessly and succeeded in imbuing four warriors with the essence of mighty animal gods: the lynx, dragonhawk, bear, and eagle. Some adventurers fear that Malacrass may have bound a fifth, even darker essence within his own soul....  Zakolj 18:42, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Why Zul'Jin?
Im actually suprised that no-one has picked up on this yet. In the official trailer for Zul'Aman, it obviously shows high elves, Blood Elves, torturing him. And who has joined the Horde recently? Blood Elves. Thus, Zul'Jin would find extreme distaste for them now. And why Thrall is seeming supporting his death is because if unchecked, he would likely destroy his newest allies' home. Also, it has been shown in various occasions that the Horde is not an ally of Forest Trolls, such as Zul'Jin. Playable trolls themselves, actually, may have the greatest hatred of their cousins, just under the Elves. Also, it has been raised then Zul'Jin might not be his actual name, just a title, and even before the second war, he was already the leader of many tribes, and likely obtained it sometime before all this. The "For Zul'Jin " emote is, as has been raised before, likely Vol'Jin or Thrall. Sorry if I did anything wrong here, im new to WoWwiki :) My Grandfather used to say &quot;What doesn&#39;t kill me makes me stronger.&quot; Until the accident, that is. 14:08, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Pretty much all of this have been discussed above. What do you mean no one's picked up on this? Also, not all high elves became blood elves, and Zul'jin's torture party might not even be alive. Not that the trolls would care.--Austin P 15:22, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Not directly an enemy on the Horde or Alliance
It is worth noting that none of the racial leaders like Lorethemar or Bolvar order an attack on Zul'Aman or Zul'jin. Instead it is the neutral Budd Nedreck who is the motivated by money. Zarnks 04:46, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Given that Zul'Jin vowed vengenance on both factions, he's certainly a direct enemy story wise if not gameplay wise.--Austin P (talk) 15:18, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Great to have you back, Austin.-- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 17:18, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. With Dark Factions and Beyond the Dark Portal out, I should probably get back in the game.--Austin P (talk) 15:29, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Maybe the ingame lore on why to kill him is correct?
I think the people who actually want to kill Zul'jin (Neckred, and his mercenaries) should be mentioned as wanting him dead.

Even if you throw away the RPG the Hinterlands quests and the Troll Emote show he is only hated by Blood Elves, and the Alliance certainly has no reason to want to waste military resources killing him.

I'm not trying to be overly critical but even the most minor characters like Huntsman Loksey of the Scarlet Crusade have the reason and who wants them dead, as a major lore figure I think we here should give people information on who wants to kill Zul'jin, and why.

The answer provided by Blizzard's latest lore is a group of somewhat dark and evil money driven rednecks want him dead in order to steal all the treasure of his people.

A lot of inspired leaders/visionaries get slaughtered by criminals, I don't think that Blizzard hurt the lore by making that how Zul'jin met his end. I would mention recent real life history to back it up, but I don't want to heavily digress from the topic of editing.

So if I have permission I will add that Zul'jin is not attacked by the Alliance or Horde, but by a group of self centered avaricious treasure hunters who simply want to loot Zul'Aman, and don't seem to consider Forest Trolls to be sentient forms of life, and the reason players go into Zul'Aman is to join in the looting.

To anyone who has never raided Zul'Aman and saw the Hexing Stave here, or who only raided for enough to pick one up, the hex victims are part of Neckred's expedition, not High Elves who fled there on their way to join their allies, infact I don't recall seeing any High Elf in Zul'Aman, it is likely they already reached Dalaran or Stormwind, or fell. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by.

Dead according to lore
I think it is safe to assume that the guy is officially dead. anything against changing his status to deceased (lore) killable (wow) kind of status?Gargar (talk) 00:14, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * according to the wotlk manual he is now deadGargar (talk) 11:02, 30 January 2009 (UTC)


 * So that's the end? he could have had a "greater" death, disappointing... first Zul'jin, then Bolvar, who's the next? Pudim17 (talk) 18:29, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

"Zul'jin is"...
I don't think that it's likely that a lore character who has been a defeated raid boss for years is still alive lorewise. I've edited the intro section as such; it now says "Zul'jin was...". Let me know if there's something I'm missing here. Sarvam (talk) 06:32, May 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * I think it was confirmed in WotLK manual, but it should be cited. Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 14:40, May 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * I seemed to have mis-placed my Wotlk manual... otherwise I'd confirm that right now =/ 19:30, May 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * Just checked, the Zul'Aman part ends with "intrepid heroes stepped in to conquer the fearsome troll army". No statement on Zul'jin being dead or alive.  Sarvam (talk) 22:30, May 14, 2010 (UTC)