Talk:Hasic

Pointless Speculation
I am interested in what has happened to Hasic. Was it renamed? Since it is called an eastern port — looking at a map of the world — my guess is that Hasic is located on the same peninsula where Gilneas lies. Since that area isn't accessible in WoW yet we cannot see it. Rolandius (talk) 03:12, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The eastern coast of Gilneas makes sense. That way it wouldn't appear in-game. Also, by land it could be said to take a long time to reach Hillsbrad and Southshore, since we know game scale is way off. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 6:33 PM PST 10 Jun 2008


 * One thing its implied by later sources that Gilneas owned all the current peninsula before the Second War (although it seems Day of the Dragon states they owned only the tip of it). It seems there may have been a retcon here. This causes an issue with the fact that Hasic is implied to be outside of Gilneas, and closer to Soutshore.Baggins (talk) 01:37, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with Fandyllic. That would be a huge retcon for two reasons. First, the whole argument about Gilneas in the book is that they are so far away from Alterac that they shouldn't even be in the crises talks. So if Gilneas owned the whole peninsula then they could say they are close enough to Alterac to be in the crises talks. The second reason why they couldn't have owned all of the peninsula or Hasic is that in the book they said Kul Tiras was very protective of its naval soveriegnty, and if GIlneas ever had an excuse to cross the Great Sea towards the east they were afraid that it would upset Kul Tiras. That would make no sense if they own Hasic since boats are coming out of Hasic to go the east in the book, and I am pretty sure if Gilneas owned the whole peninsula they would want to have ships leaving thier eastern ports to move around.  Rolandius (talk) 01:57, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually Silverpine Forest is considered a large land in between Lordaeron the nation and Gilneas Penninsula. You have to factor that in as well, and not go by in-game scales. Tirisfal Glades is a long ways away from even the Gilneas Harbor. And the Capital of the Gilneas Peninsula, "Gilneas" is on the southernmost tip of the peninsula. So even then he would have had to travel a long ways to reach the Lordaeron Kingdom. Mind you if you thought Lordaeron Kingdom owned the rest of the Peninsula his travel time would have still\l been the same to the castle, that is a long ways. Besides if you have a problem with Kul Tiras and Gilneas having potential conflict with each other... I'm pretty sure the most powerful nation in the Alliance, "Lordaeron" would have had problems with Gilneas stealing parts of its land (if Lordaeron originally owned the Peninsula).
 * In anycase yes its stated in Alliance Player's Guide and WoW RPG and possible other sources that the entire peninsula of Gilneas was owned by Genn Greymane, and that he built the wall not long after the Second War. Its even mentioned in Lands of Conflict, that the Greymane wall is was built on the border between Gilneas and the the kingdom of Lordaeron 10 years ago.Baggins (talk) 02:04, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Well I didn't mean to say Lordareon owned land all the way to Gilneas. I was just saying that in the book they said Gilneas is so far away from Alterac which makes sense if they are the tip of the peninsula. Also they were worried about Kul Tiras being mad if Gilneas sent boats across the Great Sea. So if Gilneas did own the whole peninsula that would mean they would have zero ports and zero ships on the whole eastern side of thier nation?   Rolandius (talk) 02:22, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Point of note there is little to no lore on the geography of Gilneas. We don't know how rugged the northern coasts are, we do know its very stormy though, as it was ten years ago. It has bad sea storms apparently. Its possible that the only safe landning spot is at the capital. In anycase most maps that show the area show that it is surrounded by high cliffs around most of the peninsula. Its stated that high cliffs protect gilneas' shores, and sailors can't see in. If sailors can't get in from the sides, then its very unlikely that sailors could get out from the sides due to those huge cliffs. Also note they owned Zul'Dare during the Second War as well. Kul Tiras tried to get support from the Gilneans there without response. Infact first chapter makes a big deal about spies and a ring that's supposed to protect him if he's carefulBaggins (talk) 02:28, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay that takes care of Gilneas. But where would Hasic be then? It has to be an eastern port and, unless they change the map, I don't see any eastern area except that peninsula. Remember they had to fly over Tol Barad to get to Khaz Modan.   Rolandius (talk) 02:57, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Cough if it is an "eastern port" in Lordaeron that could place it towards Stromgarde.... which is the kingdom east of the kingdom of Lordaeron... That would place it east of the Hillsbrad region of Lordaeron, on the southeastern edge of the kingdom. You may have been thinking "too west" with your speculation ;). Of course if there was a quote stating its relation to Hillsbrad town and/or Southshore it would be useful. I don't remember the details exactly.Baggins (talk) 03:07, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

This is so pointless

 * That is true. On the other hand we cannot think "too east" either because it has to be far enough away that they didn't want to travel on roads to get to Khaz Modan, and remember they flew over Tol Barad.   Rolandius (talk) 03:15, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I was hardly thinking "too east"... I was thinking of the southeastern boundary of Lordaeron that borders the western edge of the former Kingdom of Stromgarde. As you might know the kingdom of Stromgarde (aka Arathi Highlands) is a huge barrier between Lordaeron and the road to Khaz Modan. Its pretty certain that they didn't enter into Stromgarde. The boundary between the two kingdoms is Thoradin's Wall. Hasic could have been just south of Dun Garok, along the southeastern edge of Lordaeron.


 * Dun Garok is too east. They would have had to fly backwards to Tol Barad and then go forward again.   Rolandius (talk) 03:46, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * It is less likely to be towards Silverpine Forest and Gilneas because those represent the western edges of Lordaeron. Which would be antithetical to the fact it was said to be an eastern port of Lordaeron.Baggins (talk) 03:24, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Well I am going to go in the middle with this then since Lordaeron barely has an eastern area that has access to water. I think it has to be in the southwestern area of the Hillsbrad Foothills. That area has some land jutting into the sea so it could have had an eastern port, and from there you could easily fly over Tol Barad while traveling to Khaz Modan. The area I am talking about it would be west of Azurelode Mine and North-West of Purgation Isle. If you try to go along the coast there you go off the map, even though on a world map you can see a small bay. That bay would be great for a port as it has a east, north and west side to it — the south side being water.   Rolandius (talk) 03:46, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Alrighty then another detail, the northern edge of the port had docks, pg 105. So for that to be the case it had to be on the side of land with a bearing of north to south, or some kinda hooking peninsula. That would be possible around the eastern edge of Hillsbrad Foothills section of Lordaeron just south of Dun Garok. Although another interpretation wcould be that it was smack dab inbetween Southshore and Hillsbrad town. That would explain why it would only take a week to reach either one. That's assuming that DotD was based on the old Warcraft II Azeroth map. Alot of towns were drastically moved between that map and later maps. As you might notice they screwed it up to the point of moving Hillsbrad from being a seaside location to the middle of Hillsbrad Foothills. You honestly can't truly follow the "directions" and explanation given DotD and try to apply it to later maps, since it was certainly based on the original Warcraft II map.Baggins (talk) 03:52, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The area south of Dun Garok is too far west to fly over of Tol Barad. I am going to go with your second interpretation. It must have been between Southshore and Hillsbrad on the old map. On the new map, it would be between Azurelode Mine and the Eastern Strand.   Rolandius (talk) 04:08, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, Dun Garok is east of Tol Barad, not "west". However generally speaking one must simply ignore the newer maps and take the context based on the map that the author had to work with when the book was written (not maps made 6-10 years after it was written). That would have placed an area between Southshore and the seaside town of Hillsbrad (it takes exactly a week to reach either one). BTW, Hillsbrad was a seaside town in the Warcraft II missions as well, although during the course of the campaign it was razed to the ground (which could have potentially explained its move inland, except that its still a seaside town in DotD). The Azurelode Mine is too close to western Lordaeron to be an "eastern port".


 * If you are going to go by ingame maps you have several huge problems with scale. Tol Barad doesn't exist and there isn't even any space to put it on the world map, the bay is too small, and they aligned Khaz Modan much differently. I don't even want to get into the various ways Tol Barad has moved during the course of later maps. Then there was the fact in DoTD he was supposed to have landed in an area just west of Grim Batol (let's not get into how much Grim Batol has shifted place)... Essentially every area mentioned in the book are not in the same spot they were said to be in the book in relation to later maps... Basically your trying to follow ingame scale issues, and it simply won't work.Baggins (talk) 04:20, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Tol Barad is on all the maps. On the current map they just don't show it because you can't get to it. You can see it on the early WoW maps — it is not that huge, it is very small. That is like saying Kul Tiras does not exist. In the book they said they landed on the western area of Khaz Modan, after flying over Tol Barad — which is west of Grim Batol.    Rolandius (talk) 04:31, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Nope Tol Barad is not "on all the maps". To physically be be on the map it would be seen on the map with or without title. ...and as you said "its not shown", which you admit to the fact that it isn't on all maps. However it does exist in lore.
 * However certain versions of the map have no room to show the islands. There is no room to draw in the island in the bay (maps that have room use a different scale, Stormwind's location is south of the bay, and west of Ironforge in those maps, rather than due south of Ironforge). Sure they can add them in through instances and ignore the map scale issue, but then again all your asumptions based in the map would be wrong as the scale is screwed up, and all the locations are in the wrong position in relation to each other. Generally speaking its similar to the issue with Alterac Valley and Alrathi Basin, just try to tell me where they actually exist in the world in relation to anything else. You wouldn't be able to, and the maps won't let you.


 * Hmm, and houston we a problem. They were apparently traveling "west" across the water to reach Khaz Modan, pg 139, however Khaz Modan is in the east in all maps ;). This would work the farther east they are on the map. However, the farther west they started from, they'd be heading to Kalimdor ;P.... Yes it later says they landed in western Khaz Modan, but if they left from near Azuremist Mine they would have had to have been traveling "east" to reach the western portions of Khaz Modan.Baggins (talk) 04:49, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * There is plenty of room for Tol Barad in that bay. Tol Barad is really small.  Rolandius (talk) 05:03, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I think you misread that line. It says Falstad told the other mounts to go back west while he searched around the waters for Rhonin after the battle with the black dragons. He could not find any signs of Rhonin but then they saw something in Deathwing's hand. They then continued on to Khaz Modan which was where they were nearly at allready.   Rolandius (talk) 05:01, 11 June 2008 (UTC)




 * Yes Tol Barad could be drawn into that bay. But try to think logically, based on the mechanics of the game world. What is the size of an average zone in game? Let's say it was as small as say Dead Wind Pass. That would still be huge, and the map which relates to in-game use space simply doesn't hae the space for a zone like that, and include Crestfall, Zul'Dare, Kul Tiras, and Tol'Bard and any other islands that are supposed to be in that bay. You have bothered to look across Baridin bay right? Its really not that far across in game, and there is very little room to actually add islands even to WoW's zone scale. You argue that the "scale is the same?" But its reather easy to tell that there are major differences in the scales given in differet sources, and the locations of places throughout those sources. Also generally speaking we don't know how large Tol Barad is, the maps surely don't give good enough context for scale. But certainly a place that famous would diserve its own zone, and not simply some tiny Fenris Isle style endeavor, it was described as a kingdom in DotD for goodness sakes. But certainly if one takes all the other islands into account, the ingame bay would be pretty crowded. Besides on most maps its shown to be as large as present Quel'Danas at least.


 * If they were treated like Alterac Valley and Arathi Basin as having maps but maps that don't show up on the main overworld map, but accessed through instances then the game's scale and location issues would be even more screwed up than it already is.Baggins (talk) 05:25, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I see what you are saying. I meant it could be drawn into a world map as a small island, but not accessible. I agree with you though that as an actual place you can travel around as a zone, then there is no room. I am just saying that, like Kezan, it is a real place in Azeroth, but just not a place you can get to or run around, unless they did the instance thing you mentioned. Well back to my first subject, we know Tol Barad is in between Hasic and Khaz Modan. The Azurelode Mine was just my guess because you said I was thinking too west. My original idea is that Hasic is somewhere west of Azurlode Mine and North-West of Purgation Isle. That are could be called an eastern port since Lordaeron barely has any eastern land access to the water. It is just like the Western Strand and Eastern Strand. They don't look like they are on the western and eastern part of something, but that is what they are called because that is all that area has that comes close to a western or eastern beach. Rolandius (talk) 06:20, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Just to point out that Lordaeron's sea access includes generally speaking the sea shores from north eastern edge of Gilneas/Silverpine to the area around and south of Dun Garok. If Lordaeron was in charge of Silverpine Forest to the extent of its land holding then much of the western shore would also be theirs. In northern Lordaeron it has the shores around northern Tirisfal Glades, and the eastern shores around Tyr's Hand, Tyr's Bay (not accessable in wow). The Kingdom of Lordaeron is vast compared to many of the other seven nations. As far as I know it controlled most of the Hillsbrad Foothills, Lordamere Lake between it and Capital City. It didn't control the Alterac Mountains (formelry the Kingdom of Alterac) or the the small city state of Dalaran that more or less lay between the Capital City and Hillsbrad Foothills. If you are going by realistic map scales the sea shore that follows the southern ege of Hillsbrad Foothills is pretty large if it took at least two weeks to pass between Hillsbrad and Southshore. I wonder if any other sources give an idea how large Hillsbard Foothills is.


 * Taking this into account Azurelode Mines would be more or less to the western most edges of the main Lordaeron kingdom (depending on who controlled Silverpine Forest). Dun Garok and the rocky shoreline south of it would represent the eastern most edges of southern Lordaeron. Tyr's Bay would represent the eastern most edges in northern Lordaeron (at least you don't have to figure that in for Hasic)Baggins (talk) 06:46, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I am not sure where you are looking. I am looking at Dun Garok and towards the south there isn't anything that could be called an eastern port. It goes south from Dun Garok then the shore turns straight east. There is no eastern part to that land. Then the shore continues and becomes the Arathi Highlands area. Also if you flew from that area to Khaz Modan you would see the shore a lot and not be over the ocean. I have read the sentences many times within the hour and I am 90% sure I know the general area of where it is. Here are the clues.


 * We know a few facts: 1. They flew over Tol Barad. 2. They flew from an eastern port, not Lordaeron's eastern border — because that would be way over at the Eastern Plaguelands — with access to the Great Sea. 3. It takes over a week to reach either of its neighbors — Hillsbrad or Southshore. 4. They flew to western Khaz Modan. 5. They mention that thier only chance to continue on the journey — before they found out that they could fly there — was to head towards Hillsbrad or Southshore. So drawing a line backwards from Khaz Modan's shore, and then through Tol Barad, hits somewhere between the northeastern part of the Gilneas peninsula and Azurlode Mine. Now that is the area I was talking about. If you look at the WoW map there is a small bay there. It is between the northeastern part of Gilneas peninsula and the coast south of Azurelode Mine. On the map, Silverpine Forest or Hillsbrad Foothills could be the zone since the area borders along both thier coasts. In the game you cannot go there because Silverpine Forest has mountains and anything east of Purgation Isle doesn't exist. I swam from Silverpine Forest's western coast to Hillsbrad Foothill's southern coast a long time ago. You pretty much go through Gilneas, if you look at your mini-map or world map, since Gilneas doesn't exist as a zone. I cannot remember if there were any empty houses, farms or animals like people have found on other shores where the map wasn't developed. That bay would have an eastern, northern and western shore to it. That has to be the place.    Rolandius (talk) 10:08, 11 June 2008 (UTC)




 * The problem, is that it was an eastern port of Lordaeron. We can likely rule out the use of the term Lordaeron (continent) because by that definition eastern ports would be too far east (making "eastern port" as far as eastern coast of the entire continent). So that likely means the context means the kingdom of Lordaeron which limits things to an area combining Tirisfal Glades, the areas currently know as the Plaguelands, and Hillsbrad. We also know it was in the south, that means it was eastern side of south Lordaeron. Anything in the middle of Lordaeron is not an "eastern port", anything in western Lordaeron is not an "eastern port" by definition. it wasn't in north eastern Lordaeron so we an rule out Tyr's Bay. That leaves somewhere in south eastern Lordaeron.


 * The problem here is the author was not very good with his discriptions. Generally speaking he specifically stated that the port of Hasic was in the east, not the middle or the west side of the nation. He also implied that they flew directly south or possible southeast over tol barad. This is the authors's mistake. No map truly fits his discription. Not even the Warcraft II maps, which has Tarren Mill incredibly far east into Lordaeron, and Southshore and Hillsbrad more to the middle of Lordaeron. Perhaps it was poor writing, or perhaps he access to some of Blizzard's internal concept maps. ...or maybe Soutshore was not part of the nation of Lordaeron in early lore (making the eastern most border of the nation somewhere between Hillsbrad and Soutshore)...Who knows. But no map truly fits the discription given, if you try to follow the book precisely, and trying to mesh it wth current lore, or current maps.Baggins (talk) 10:47, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

GG, it wont't stop

 * Okay but you are forgetting. They never said it was the eastern part of Lordaeron Kingdom. They said an eastern port that is all — with access to the Great Sea — so it could be anywhere in the Kingdom as long as it is an eastern port, as in it has a piece of land with some amount of water on its eastern side. So that goes back to my previous spot. If you draw a line from my small bay spot it goes right through Tol Barad and hits Khaz Modan.   Rolandius (talk) 11:24, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Nope you seem to be forgetting the definiton of "eastern ports", or are at least confused on the definition. The definiton of eastern port in a real world definition is a port that is on the eastern side of a nation, continent, or state. A port on the western side of a nation(perhaps inside of a bay) but points east would not be an "eastern port", but still a western port. The book is very specific that the eastern port was in Lordaeron. Turn a few pages and you'll see that the book says that they are in Lordaeron looking for the port (I'll add the citation later). It was certainly in the "kingdom" we have established that. If the ports are anywhere but "east" it wouldn't bean eastern port.


 * You can try to twist the definition anyway you like, but I certainly wouldn't take you seriously, as I'm only ahware of a specific real world definition, which I defined above.Baggins (talk) 11:35, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

blah blah blah blah

 * LOL I know they were in the Kingdom of Lordaeron. You are forgetting one of the clues. Hasic cannot be east of Southshore or Hillsbrad. They said they would have to go either to Southshore or Hillsbrad now that Hasic was ruined, but they eventually used the gryphons. If Hasic is where you say it is why would they want to walk backwards? I still think it is that one spot. Lordaeron isn't a square kingdom, so it has a north, east and west borders and barely has a southern border. The eastern border is from Stratholme all the way to Hillsbrad. Remember they said an eastern port. The best spot for an eastern port, without being almost right next to Khaz Modan, is that small bay.   Rolandius (talk) 11:51, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually the book doesn't specifiy where hillsbrad or Soutshore is in relation to Hasic, only that it takes over a week to get to either one. That can mean almost anything. If it took a week and a half for one and two weeks for the other it would still be "over a week" for both. AS for a reference stating they would have to go to Soutshore or Hillsbrad, please give me the page number for that, archive verison will be fine (that is actually the paper verison I have access too). AS for your idea that they "walk backwards" care to point out how you came to that conclusion. All we know they were coming from the north, heading roughly south. We don't even know where Senturas castle (the last landmark they were at) is on any map... You would be hard pressed to know where they were coming from...to even know which direction they were going to. For all we know Southshore and HIllsbard could be further away, going forward from where they orignated from. For all we know they could have been choosing Hasic just because it was closer to Khaz Modan than leaving from the other ports. They were going Besides if one port is dead, and you have to get to one that is still active, then you will travel any direction it takes to get to it. Unless your plan is to just give up. And yoru excuse "that it barely has a southern border" is not an issue to being an eastern port by real world definiton. AS long as there is an eastern corner that touches the ocean that would count as part of the south eastern side of the nation, and thus the location of an eastern port. If you had three towns back to back in that eastern corner, they would all be eastern ports. I.E that corner just south of the Thoradin wall would count as eastern edge of the nation. You seem to be forgetting that STromgarde is pretty long and tracherous area to travel through. So going by way of Lordaeron and catching a boat would be quicker. However, i serioulsy can'ttake your misdefinition of what an eastern port is seriously, a port in a western bay is by real world definitons a western port, not an eastern port, even if it was on an eastern shore of that bay.Baggins (talk) 12:13, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Well I am just saying that the area I pointed out fits the most requirements. My border idea is pretty crazy but if you take away the map and just look at the lines you can see that there is a big north border, a medium west border, a huge eastern border, and barely anything counting as a south border. It can't be at the border with Stromgarde because that is too close, and they would have had to travel a long time westward to get there and probably would have seen more landmarks and the book would have mentioned those landmarks. When they started thier journey they would have went to the nearest port to the Great Sea in thier path and you said they were coming from the north, which I agree, and then travelling roughly south, which I agree. Remember the flight path was Hasic, ocean, over Tol Barad, ocean, and then Khaz Modan. Ok this is that citation page you asked for.   Rolandius (talk) 12:39, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * A couple of points I will only accept the real world definition of eastern ports as that is the one any educated author is going ot be using. Generally speaking an author isn't going to invent a definition for a real world term, and trying to change the context of what a real world term means to something antithetical to it doesn't help anything, if one is trying to find out where the author had intended something to be. Secondly, we know that he had planned to travel to hasic from the beginning, he had started out from Dalaran. However, he had to make a detour first to meet up with Vereesa who had traveled all the way from Quel'thalas and was waiting for him somewhere in Hillsbrad Foothills. We have no idea where they met up exactly, the landmark described was an indistinct inn in the middle of nowhere, didn't even appear to have a town around it. All we know is it would have been somewhere between Dalaran and Quela'Thalas, she would have likely had to have traveled through Stomgarde and the Hinterlands to get to Hillsbrad, so somewhere in eastern Hillsbrad would have made sense. We do know that they were attacked by dragons pretty early on and had to make a big detour to Senturas Castle which which was somewhat out of the way from Hasic. However, no directions are give in in the book. There are no landmarks mentioned other than the ones made up for the book and never see anywhere else, and the vague reference to hillsbrad and southshore which could be placed in various places in relation to Hasic, at least as long as the real world definition of "eastern port" is maintained. On some maps Southshore could probably be called an eastern port it falls on the southeastern edge of the realm.
 * Then once they get over the water with the gryphons they have one more major "detour" they get into a dogfight with the dragons. We don' tknow how much off track they were during the fight.
 * Yes I know about the single references to Hillsbrad and Southshore, on page 107, its the one cited in the article already, and mentiond over and over in this discusission. It is an incredibly vague sentence. the "over a week" statement could place them in several different spots in relation to hasic, it could have forced him to move forward or backword who knows. The one sentence is simply not enough information, and open to too many possible scenarios, for people to agree or disagree on. Its open to way too much speculation, for several, even if we stick only to the realistic definition of "eastern ports", and not some false interptation.Baggins (talk) 13:13, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Well going by what we know, I guess you could pick either spot. That eastern port part is confusing, but it is only one clue. We know Southshore isn't Hasic because it already existed. LOL Plus its called Southshore not Eastshore. I am saying that the spot I am talking about hits the majority of clues. Hasic's nieghbors were Southshore and Hillsbrad. If you go too far east, the book would have said Hasic's neighbors were Tarren Mill or Stromgarde. They said when they flew from Hasic they were over ocean the entire time except when they flew over Tol Barad. When they start fighting the black dragons they are allready within view of Khaz Modan's land. They would not have walked right by Hillsbrad or Southshore to get to Hasic when they could just use those ports instead. I think your thinking too east again. As for Vereesa, I don't think she came through Stromgarde or the Hinterlands. She came from somewhere more west like Strahnbrad or even closer to Lordaeron. In the book, when she sees the dwarves, she says she recognized them from the Aerie Peaks, a distant land beyond the realm of Quel'thalas. Why say that if she just walked right through it. Also the town inland is not Hillsbrad. It is Hillsbrad Fields. So they probably travelled south, either past Amber Mill (where she met Rhonin?) and then met Senturus (Shadowfang Keep and Pyrewood, an out of the way castle and barely a town?) or Hillsbrad Fields (where she met Rhonin?) and then met Senturus (some small castle and town nearby?). They then continued south to Hasic. I am 90% sure just using the clues we have that Hasic is between Greymane Wall and Azurelode Mine.   Rolandius (talk) 01:19, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Southshore if it was in south eastern edge of lordaeron would still be called southshore, because the sout east is still south. However we know it was actually in the middle region of Lordaeron. The Southshore region was between the old Hillsbrad foothills region and Tarren Mills region at the time. Rhonin mentions Southshore and Hillsbrad because those are seaside towns. Tarren Mills the town is actually fairly north, not even near the sea, so he wouldn't have been going that way if he was trying to get a boat. We know next to nothing of what other towns were in the Tarren Mills region at the time however. Warcraft II implies that there were actulaly alot of sea side towns at the time along that coast and its three regions. Stromgarde is outside of Lordaeron, and an entirely different kingdom altogether, and we know they were staying in Lordaeron. Also you are missing a major point its repeated over and over that Hasic is very far away from where they first begin (Dalaran, and that unnamed forest inn (its not in a town so forget any ideas of towns)). Infact Rhonin doesn't know much about it, he knows more about Southshore and Hillsbrad in comparison. Its also implied to be a very remote village a long ways away from Dalaran. It also wasn't his choice it was the choice of the Kirin Tor for him to go out of his way to find Veressa, and then go out of his way to reach Hasic. She had journeyed from Qual'Thalas when he left Dalaran, and by the time he reached that inn she had been waiting their three days (there is no details of when Rhonin left Dalaran exactly or when she left Quel'Thalas to understand how long either had been traveling prior to their arivals there). We only know that they both were commanded to meet each other a that inn. Then its said that Hasic is very far away. Actually the book gives the impression he was suppposed to very far away. Infact when he's made the detour to Senturas castle he's really worried about being way out of the way. It its implied that Kirin Tor want him to leave from there because it was so remote and unknown. It would be less likely for the enemy to hear of his mission. Whereas Hillsbbrad and Southshore are the main ports in southern Lordaeron and would make him more exposed.


 * Point of note on older concept maps when Blizzard was formulating the locations, Aerie Peaks and Northeron were listed as actually being in northern Quel'Thalas region, thus beyond the edges of QuelThalas. Yep a retcon took place here around the time of Warcraft III. You might note that on that early Warcraft II map, that Northern/Aerie Peaks is not even listed; :). Knowing the book developement and context of locations based on when it was made is very important. You just came across another one of those map retcons I've been discussing throughout the entire discussion. This is were looking at sources that the author had to work with at the time is very important rather than looking at things through future things he would not have the premonition of knowing would change.


 * I still I have a huge problem with you trying to ignore the context of the term "eastern ports" as an educated person would understand it. Simply put the west of lordaeron doesn't fit the definition. Also i'm pretty sure Shadowfang Keep was never a Silver Hand fortress, and was held by Baron Silverlaine a lot longer before then, and its also a seaside fortress. Senturas castle was inland far from the sea. Considering Pyrewood is a western port of Silverpine forest and a remote one at that then if he was near there he should have been able to catch a boat. But we know he wasn't anywhere near the sea. Yep your speculation is starting to get a bit far fetched, and too out of bounds for my tastes. Also the book never states that they are going south. We know that it is roughly in the south because of references to Hillsbrad and Soutshore. But that doesn't give a baring as to which direction of south they are going. Its implied to be southeast due to the rference of "eastern ports". But that vague could be anything from South, South East, and South South east, etc, and still be going east. It never specifically states that they are going true south though. We are never given any directions as to the various detours made, to know how far they got them off track.Baggins (talk) 03:16, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay the main word there is enemy. The Kirin Tor did not want them to go to a place where the enemy could hear about the mission. So if Southshore and Hillsbrad are the main ports, they couldn't have went east of those because that exposed them too much and there was a bigger chance of being seen by dragons. It has to be west of Southshore and Hillsbrad. The Pyrewood and Shadowfang Keep thing was just me guessing at a castle which also was part of a town. I know that is too far west. That is why I said Ambermill is probably the most west they would have went and Hillsbrad Fields is the most east they would have went as they traveled roughly south. Using all the facts, they would have hit that area of the coast that borders Silverpine Forest and Hillsbrad Hills. It is far enough away from Hillsbrad and Southshore to be more than a weeks travel. You have to remember that Hillsbrad and Hillsbrad Fields are two different places. And flying from that coastal spot over the ocean intercepts Tol Barad.   Rolandius (talk) 03:26, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The ring was supposed to make him invisible to dragons and the like. He thought he was after in Lordaeron so he wasn't wearing it when he lost it. Qiute saying you are "using all the facts" if you are going to simply ignore the term "eastern ports" its facetious and misleading. And "hiting a point between silverpine forest and Hillssbrad Hills is purely speculation. By the books context it has to at least be between Hillsbradd and Southshore, but Eastern ports would imply further east, but still within Lordaeron, they do not enter Stromgarde. Sorry I just don't agree with you, imo your reasoning has major holes. Also point of note, you called Southshore a "neigbor" if it was west of Hillsbrad, then that imply using one of your previous bits of speculation it couldn't be a "neighbor" of southshore by your interpretation. I.E by your interpration if being east of soutshore doesn't make it a neighbor of soutsho, then how can you say being west of Hillsbard makes it a neigbhor of Soutshore? If you had it in the middle of Silverpine, then it is even less likely to be a neibhor of either by your logic.


 * Also another possible fact you might have overlooked. It said the neighbers were the realms of Hillsbrad and Soutshore? hmm "realm? could it be a reference to the Soutshore region, and the old Hillsbrad region? In which case he would ahve had to go to other ports in those regions to catch a ship. If thats possible being west and outside the Hillsbrad region would likely deny its status as "neighbor" of the Soutshore region. That would open the possiblity of it being within either Hillsbrad or Soutshore regions to fit the idea of being neighbors of both, rather than outside the regions altogether. In which case if it was slighly east of Soutshore the town, perhaps near the river with all the turtles (noting that that river could be much larger than it is in game if one uses the real world scale), it could still fit into the true definition of an "eastern port", and still be a neigbhor of both, and even have a northern water way for docking ships. The former town could have been built on the banks of the river.


 * No one is talking about the town of "new Hillsbrad" (let's call it that to avoid confusion) in Hillsbrad Fields, that has no bearing on this converation nor should it. It had to have been built sometime after Lands of Conflict even, Brann doesn't even mention it, or at least it is non important town in the whole scheme of the modern region of Hillsbrad (aka Hillsbrad Foothills). Besides even if there were two towns named "Hillsbrad" Rhonin wouldn't be traveling there to catch a ship, its a landlocked town, very far into the Hillsbrad region, this is about as ludicrous as the idea you suggested above about him going to the township of Tarren Mill to catch a ship, which is also landlocked.Baggins (talk) 03:53, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

More pointless discussion

 * I think you are confused at what I am saying. I didn't say they went to Hillsbrad Fields to take a boat. I said that could have been a place they stopped over at like the inn mentioned maybe even Senturus' town. Tarren Mill I did not say was a port. I said if Hasic was way over by Dun Garok like you mentioned, they would have said something about Tarren Mill being a neighbor. I am trying to use the facts, or clues at least. I didn't say in between Silverpine Forest and Hillsbrad Hills. I said Hasic might be at thier borders on the coast. The Southshore and Hillsbrad regions could still be thier nieghbors since they are talking about land routes. Remember she says that since Hasic's boats were destroyed they might have to go to either Southshore or Hillsbrad. If they are in between those ports, why walk backwards (to Hillsbrad) to take a boat to the east? It cannot be on that river you talk about because as soon as they took off they were over ocean. Also don't forget Tol Barad has to be in thier path.   Rolandius (talk) 04:17, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * 1. The Inn was not in a town. It woudln't have been the HIllsbrad Fields that's farmlan, not a forest. Infact the farmland is implied to be fairly old.


 * 2. Its not going to be Senturas town because the town is named "Hillsbrad" I doubt there were two towns named Hillsbrad back then.


 * 3. Who says it doesn't say something about Tarren Mill? It might not say it directly but its implied. Remember it states, "its neigbhors" (note plural neighbors), then it points out "especially the major realms of Hillsbrad and Southsore" (as it states these are just the most important of the nieghbors). So it states that there are more neighbors than just those two.


 * 4. Point of note Tarren Mill was not a major realm in Warcraft II. It was just a place to pass through to get to Hillsbrad or Soutshore. It didn't even play a major part, the one event that happens there happened in the middle of nowhere, not even a town, but some grassland. The major events in that area occur in Hillsbrad, Soutshore, and Zul'Dare. Because of this fact it makes sense that the author would point out the importance of the Hilsbrad and Southshore relams, over anything else. Remember he only had Warraft I and II to work with, the book predates Warcraft II and the other novels.
 * 5 I don't know where you live, but I know of alot of real world cities that are built on the mouth of rivers, and planes taking off from their airports will fly out over the ocean. This is prttey normal occurance, and certainly show that such a possiblity can exist. So no, your denial doesn't couteract the possiblity




 * 6. "why walk backwards (to Hillsbrad)"
 * Are you serious? This is not very difficult question to answer, just try to think about it a little. There are several possible answers, and the book tells us one reason. Rhonin is awalking around looking for transportation, but thinks there might not be any in Hasic. So he's thinking of other possiblities. Hillsbrad and Soutshore both contain major ports, and his best options since he can't follow the Kirin Tor's command to travel through Hasic. Both are going to take over a week to reach, and he's going to have to walk the entire way. Both have pros and cons. Maybe he's thinking of which is the fastest to reach, or the closest. If he's directly between both this isn't m;uch of an issue to think about.  Perhaps one is closer than the other. Maybe its faster to reach Hillsbrad than it will take to reach Southshore, maybe its the reverse. Time is one of his factors, he has to get to Khaz MOdan as fast as possible and he needs to think of ways to do that. Maybe one town is cheaper than than the other, he has limited funds and needs to be careful with his budget. Maybe one of the towns has a better selection of ships than the other. Maybe one place has faster transporation than the other. He's got alot of factors to think about beofore he makes his decision, and pros and cons to wade through. These are many of the same factors most travelers use to base their choices on how to travel to other places. I should know, I've had to make similar decisions in my own life.


 * However since your issue seems to be a matter of "distance" or possible "direction" Let me ask a counterquestion. Why if he was west of Hillsbrad, need to travel to Soutshore, it would be over twice the distance. It would take him more time to reach Soutshore than Hillsbrad. Certainly some of the factors above such as price or choice of transportation would still factor in. But certainly would make less sense for him to think about Southshore if direction and distance were his own factors. Being betweeen the cities is less ludicrous than traveling twice the distance to reach Southshore, especially if both places were exactly the same as far as travel options. However, I would not assume that they are exactly the same.


 * Finally he's certainly not going to walk through the Alrathi Highlands, its a rugged mountain top area with steep rugged cliffs to the south, its not known for having a port town. Its highly treacherous region. Walking through it would take even longer than traveling by boat, plus the Horde would spot him even before he crossed the bridges, even if he had the ring still. It is basically traveling through the front door of the enemy.


 * 7.It seems you have forgotten, but I've already shown routes both inbetween Hillbrad and Southshore and east of Southshore that pass over Tol Barad. Passing over Tol Bara really is a non-issue, there are many places that could be chosen that will fit that criteria, and even still maintaining the "eastern ports" criteria. You don't want me to make a rainbow map showing a dozen of them do you?

Baggins (talk) 05:24, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * OKay let me comment on each point you made.


 * 1. I didn't say Hillsbrad Fields was the inn. I said that could be a likely spot.


 * 2. There can be two Hillsbrads since it is called Hillsbrad Fields not just Hillsbrad. I mean the whole zone is also called Hillsbrad so they can name things twice.


 * 3. I have no idea what you mean by me saying "it has nothing to do with Hillsbrad".


 * 4. I think he would have mentioned something if it was there. He mentioned the inn and Senturus' place and they weren't anything big.


 * 5. When you said river I thought you meant you thought it was up river a way. I know ports are at the mouth of rivers.


 * 6. Rhonin doesn't say anything about Hillsbrad or Southshore, that is Vereesa. Remember he is chasing the gryphons around to talk to the dwarves. I see what you are saying though if they are in between the two ports. If you go way too east though as a location, then the "walking backwards" does apply. You would walk right by Southshore just to get to Hillsbrad. On the other hand, if they are in between then yes they could go to either port. But if they are west of Hillsbrad they could still go to either port becasue they said they have to use land routes. I don't think they would follow the coast there might not be any route all the way through. They would go by land to Hillsbrad or to Southshore depending which is safer or cheaper like you said.


 * 7. The routes passing over Tol Barad you made are good if it is in between Southshore and Hillsbrad. The east one that passes over Tol Barad though is less likely since it is so much east they would have been on a longer journey and when deciding to pick another port she would have said only Southshore, not mention Hillsbrad also as an alternative.   Rolandius (talk) 07:06, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Incredibly pointless discussion continued
1. Hillsbrad Fields are not the likely spot for the reasons I gave above. The inn was in a forest by itself, there was no village. The Hillsbrad Fields are simply that farm fields not a forest. Hillsbrad Foothills has forests but they are not near that spot.

2. No, this is where you are royally confused. The hillsbrad fields are the farmlands around a town called the town of Hillsbrad. Read the Hillsbrad Fields article more closely. Try reading the quest, Quest:Battle of Hillsbrad (4). This Hillsbrad did nto exist during the time of Warcraft II, the old port town of Hillsbrad did. There would not be "two Hillsbrads" at the same time.

3. I meant; Who says it doesn't say something about Tarren Mill? It might not say it directly but its implied. Remember it states, "its neigbhors" (note plural neighbors), then it points out "especially the major realms of Hillsbrad and Southshore" (as it states these are just the most important of the nieghbors). So it states that there are more neighbors than just those two.

4. The inn and Senturas place were invented for the story, they don't physically appear anywhere else in any other book. They are only mentioned because they are stops in the story. They aren't physically mentioned in the "neighbors comment", only the hillsbrad and soutshore realms are. He knew about the Inn because he was told to go there by the Kirin Tor. They must have given him directions. By the way it was Vereesa that told him about the Senturas settlement after he asked her if there were any other settlements on the way to Hasic. He didn't know of it previously. Also considering that the time the book was written there was no Tarren Mill town, only an obscure region a large grassfield it was apparently a part of the kingdom of Alterac according to the game, i.e. it was also referred to as the Alterac grasslands. There were no known towns there in previous sources. The town of Tarren Mill did not exist until Warcraft II. In other words if he's listing "especialy important places" by name isn't going to list Tarren Mill. Besides the tarren Mill region may not be able to have a good ports, it may have that same high cliff and rugged range that passed into Stromgarde. This is shown to be the case on many maps, including the Warcraft II map. So it simply would be a none issue, it wouldn't be a major transportation hub. It did have a small coastal horde outpost but not much else.

6. There are land routes either following land routes is not a problem no matter which route, the big problem is that there is no specific details about those land routes. Also "backtracking" is not a negative, it can be beneficial if done for specific reasons. Backgracking can save time. Also if there was no safe shore routes, they would have to backtrack anyways. Perhaps they would have to backtrack on the road they entered from. Perhaps the crossing would put them to a point north (whatever baring of north it was) of hassic where the distance between both Hillsbrad and Soutshore was about the same either way. Crossing directly through the woods and not taking the roads could be even slower and dangerous. Thus backgtracking would be required. I'll draw a map showing a possible situations, where this would be the case if you need it.

7. The book states it was a very long journey. The point of how long it was does not matter. All we know is that Kirin Tor ordered him to go to that specific town no matter how long it took him. Without more specific details of where they were exactly in relation to anything else there is no way to say if any place is any more likely than any other place (I could list a dozen ponts where they could have left form and still cross Tol Barad). Pure speculation of that type is hardly of neutral point of view variety. Besides you keep on wanting to forget the specific "eastern ports" comment. The point is the author had his intent that it was on the eastern shore, based on an early Warcraft II era map. As long as you ignore that crucial detail nothing you say will be "more likely", as you will be ignoring simply important context. Remember the author likely didn't make a mistake and knew what he had intended. If you ignore the author's statements then nothing you say will make any sense.

I said this before there are multitude of factors for why Vareesa, or Rhonin or whoever would think of the various routes the types of ships each location might be different. One mighthave faster ships than the other. Southshore might have access to military ships, maybe one is civilian only, maybe one is a large fishing community. Different ships travel at different speeds. Perhaps its a price issue, they have limited funds maybe one port is known for cheaper rates than another... or as I said before they had to backtrack (walk backwards) to get onto the the crossroads on the land route that would lead to both. Baggins (talk) 08:17, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * OK I will make this short. Combining all our information, and taking an idea I think I barely mentioned, Hasic was at...the Eastern Strand.   Rolandius (talk) 09:24, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Ya, I think that that would make more sense. Eastern Strand as I recall travels southeast of Southshore, crosses that river, turns southeast, etc. All on that eastern edge of the nation of lordaeron. It would fit with the "eastern ports" idea. Interesting note, other scale maps "eastern strand" appears to travel northeast, although its not specifically marked. Yes the complete change from north east to south east barings is one of the stranger scale issues caused by the later truncated maps.Baggins (talk)


 * Ok now we can talk about where the destination of thier boat was going to be — if thier boat would have survived and sailed from Hasic.LOL I think we can both agree it would have been...Menethil Harbor.    09:56, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmm, good question, although I'm not certain that Menethil Harbor existed back then? Know any sources that mention it? Also I get the impression that most of Khaz Modan had been abandoned to the orcs except for the few holdouts. I doubt they would have went as far as south as Stormwind and entered that way. Maybe just get him close enough for him to take a rowboat to the shore?Baggins (talk) 09:55, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Well I read the Menethil Harbor page on here. It said it was built after the second war, and that it was the main sea link between Khaz Modan and the kingdoms of Lordaeron, Dalaran, Stromgarde, Gilneas, and Kul Tiras. It states that it was the only "stationary" Alliance presence in the Wetlands. Looks good to me.    09:59, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Probably after Day of the Dragon time period though. They didn't get that area back until after they freed Alexstraza, it was pretty much overun with Horde. Otherwise he likely would have gotten help from the garrison there. He was originally was going to be alone in Khaz Modan.Baggins (talk) 10:07, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes it was overrun with Horde but Grim Batol and Dun Algaz were thier last strongholds it says. I do remember the Horde saying they heard about increased military activity in the northwest. Menthil Harbor is in that area by road, and was also a well fortified town they say in wowwiki. I am not sure how safe it would have been to just send him in a row boat. Menethil Harbor would be a great place to amass troops for an eventual attack on the Horde. Also Veressa — before meeting Rhonin — says that the Alliance allready have people monitoring in and around Khaz Modan.    10:30, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Well yes once it was built it was well fortified. But we certainly don't know the exact time frame of when it was built. After the war is vague, alot of things have occured "after the war" including the Third War, :p. However, I suppose it was just starting to be built at that time, or the activity includes those hill dwarves :p... However if they were part of the main Alliance forces, it still begs the question on why the Kirin Tor said he would be "alone", if he could just contact the Alliance to help him out. A few scouts in the area I can easily understand, he wouldn't necessarily encounter them..Baggins (talk) 10:35, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes it is vague. The parts fit though. The war was over, yet they still fought the Horde who were not in Alliance camps which meant they needed walls. That port serves all those cities I mentioned above just like Hasic served many cities around the Great Sea. The activity wasn't the dwarves. Those dwarves were barely living underground waiting for some kind of support. The Trolls alone kept the hill dwarves in check, and the dwarves even said they could barely run around above ground in fear of dragons. The Horde heard about Alliance military activity in that area. They were also afraid of activity in the southwest so they were pretty much being on a two sided front war. I mean Rhonin was a mage not a secret, stealthy guy that would row in a boat from the ocean to the shore and look for his own food. The "alone" part is easy, they wanted him on a one man observation, not seclusion from civilization. Remember Krasus has that secondary secret objective of freeing the queen that the Kirin Tor didn't know about. The Kirin Tor just wanted him not to kill anyone like on his last mission.   10:47, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Well I checked Lands of Conflict Menethil Harbor was specifically said to have been built after the Third War. I fixed the article and added citations.Baggins (talk) 10:55, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay well I guess they could have left him near Dun Modr.    11:00, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * This is a different subject but I know you read Lands of Conflict. Why is Tarren Mill called Tebren Mill on the map of Lands of Conflict?    11:03, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Dun Modr is inland not near a sea as far as I know, and on top of very steep cliffs. Tebren Mill could be a typo...? It is only a two letter change (e, b). I doubt it represents a seperate city, and the spelling Tarren Mill predates Tebren.Baggins (talk) 11:09, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Well I meant he may have landed nearer to Dun Modr, than the area that would be Menethil Harbor in the future, because there is an Alliance presence there.LOL You know, with his rowboat. So if in trouble he could hike to Dun Modr or get provisions. Since Menethil Harbor does not exist, the northwestern military activity that the Horde are worried about is probably the Dun Modr area.    11:19, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Point of note I believe its also said that Dun Modr was ruins at this point, no one living there. Let's just call his secret landing place the it "alliance encampment", perhaps its even where future Menethil Harbor would be, since that's an easier spot to land.Baggins (talk) 11:23, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think so. They did have battles during the second war, but Dun Modr wasn't abadoned. It is very near Thandol Span.LOL How else would Rhonin eat? Currently the Dark Iron Dwarves are causing trouble in those two areas, but during the Day of the Dragon it must have been liveable. As for his landing maybe it was the future spot of Menethil Harbor.   11:31, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * He's a mage he should be able to confjure himself up some grub, :p. But yes, I seem to recall there being one reference to attackers from Dun Modr in the book. Hopefuly no retcon has occured in later sources.Baggins (talk) 11:35, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * In the book he keeps getting fed by Deathwing so who knows.LOL Ya if they retcon too much — the reason I wanted Tol Baldar to stay — they will have to retcon The War of the Ancients because Rhonin talks about his trip over Tol Barad.    11:51, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Lands of Conflict describes Dun Modr as a fallen dwarven city, a ruined fortress. It states that the Dark Irons later claimed the fallen city, and that they kill anything that enters their territory. However it doesn't describe how it "fell", or when the Dark Irons took over, so that source is vague. What doesn't make sense is why if they got it back after the second war, why the dwarves would abandon it later, giving the Dark Irons a chance to claim it as their own with apparently no battle on the parts of the Dark Irons. It doesn't appear the Dark Irions were the ones that drove the defenders out.Baggins (talk) 12:09, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I guess it was a bit too messed up to rebuild after the second war? Or something happened in the third war? I know the dwarves want it back from the Dark Iron Dwarves now. It does say on the page for Dun Modr that "Recently, with the Alliance armies called away, both the Thandol Span and Dun Modr have fallen to the Dark Iron Dwarves." So maybe they had some control over the city. Then this calling away thing happened and the Dark Iron Dwarves easily took it. Now some dwarves, with help from reinforcements like players, want it back.    12:37, 12 (UTC)


 * Not going to say the Dun Modr article is wrong, but since the article has information without any citations, its veracity comes into question. Sorry I refuse to debate based on something I can't track back to sources to confirm. Uncited information is about as bad as baseless speculation itself. Anycase this discussion should probably be moved to the Dun Modr talk page. Though as Ragestorm would say this is not a forum.Baggins (talk) 19:26, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * After doing some research which I forgot earlier, that the Dun Modr of Warcraft II/DotD era was the Dun Modr north of Thandol Span, in the Arathi region. Of course Dun Algaz was near where southern Dun Modr is in WoW, north of Grim Batol and south of the Thandol Span. Also according to Warcraft II Dun Modr was just the ruins of a city, even before the orcs set up an outpost there. So while people apparently lived in the area, no one truly lived in the ruins themselves apparently.Baggins (talk) 23:48, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay I am just saying the "activity" was from the northwest on the other side of the Thandol Span then.     01:34, 13 June 2008 (UTC)