Talk:Burning Legion

Servants
It seems that the Legion's ability to summon more demons into the newly spoiled worlds is tied with the power of the beings from the given world which serve them. I mean, how Archimonde is unable to erect the magic shield to cut Kalimdor from the power of the Well of eternity if such magic is within the power of Manoroth? ( The Well of Eternity tilogy )


 * Sign your posts, please. Archimonde was probably able to. He didn't during the War because A) the night elves already knew how to take down he shield and B) he wanted to show them how weak and feeble they were even with the Well. During the Second Invasion, he didn;t because there was no single source of magic to cut off. --Ragestorm 11:47, 23 October 2006 (EDT)

"he wanted to show them how weak and feeble they were even with the Well."

Where was that stated? --Austin P 20:11, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

Updates from Beta
Just a few notes from the Beta test. First of all Magtheridon is alive but not doing so well, trapped in the dungeons of Hellfire Citadel. (But he's bloody talkative!) Also the Mistresses of Pain and Torment are not singular people in the Beta like they were in WC3, but there's lots of them running around the place. Silvermist

Illidan?
Illidan is listed under the Burning Legion power structure, as are Kael and Vashj and thier respective races. But can Illidan really be considered part of the Burning Legion? He served them faithfully for only until he failed to destroy Northrend and, after a little talking to Kil'jaeden, up to his duel with Arthas. If he was truly loyal to the legion, wouldn't he be trying to reinvade Azeroth instead of sitting around in Outland hoping Kil'jaeden doesn't check up on him, or has it been confirmed in the expansion that Illidan is back with the Legion?--Acidic 16:49, 16 November 2006 (EST)

I have also been real puzzled about that. As it seems now, Illidan got a faction of his own, and aren't part of the Burning Legion. I vote we change the page.--Odolwa 01:22, 12 December 2006 (EST)


 * I agree.--Ragestorm 19:28, 11 December 2006 (EST)

Legion image.
I have removed the picture showing the Legion in an overall perspective, which was created using the Warcraft III mapeditor-tool.

I consider this cannon, as it does not provide a true image of the Burning Legion-rankings and military resources, regarding both lore and the game in itself. I think many will find it confusing, especialy those who do not know much of the lore in this game, and I believe it is the image of the Burning Legion within the creator of that picture's head, and not that of either Blizzard Entertainment or many other fans.

Jarc.

And what, pray, do you propose to replce it with? The image shows various members of the Legion arrayed in front of Kil'jaeden, their current leader. If you find a suitable replacement image, please let us know.
 * Word usage: if you consider this canon, then it means you think it's correct according to lore. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 08:39, 7 February 2007 (EST)

Jarc 09/02 : I apologize for the incorrect word usage, I ofc ment "non-canon".

First of all, we do NOT know who holds current power of the various demonic races (Kil'jaeden is supreme commander, true) - it is speculations, as it also says on this site - so creating a picture that graphicly shows the ranks of various individuals, is both misguiding and in my eyes, violation of the lore.

Secondly, using an image that was created by an amateur who is not, in any way, associated officually with Blizzard Entertainment, is borderline fan-faction, and that is NOT what we are here to do, now is it? If I want a picture that shows the military ranks of the Human Empire - which is by far smaller than that of the Burning Legion, should I just make a map in a WC3-mapeditor and post it here under the section "humans"?

Also, I might add, even taking into consideration that much of the info posted on this site is speculations made by fans, the picture is STILL wrong. As an example: It shows a red dreadlord as the left-hand man of Kil'jaeden, using the Tichondrius-model. Mephistroth is speculated/assumed to have taken the position of Tichondrius, but the only time he appeared in the game, he was blue and used a standard dreadlord model... Who is the dreadlord showed left of Kil'jaeden? He must certainly have a high position within the legion ranks in order to gain the spot that he has, to bad I've never heard of him...

And lastly, I do not have a "suitable replacement", because there, apparently, is none at the moment. My suggestion? We don't use a picture that shows the rankings within the Burning Legion, before an official (!!) picture has been posted on a Blizzard-approved community site.

I have, yet again, removed the picture.


 * I still don't see how it's misleading. Kil'jaeden and other racial leaders (not named, barely recognizable), and the ranks of the Legion arrayed before them. Regardless of their relation to each other, Dreadlords, Eredar, succubi, and doomguard are higher in rank than felguard. The only thing I find misleading is that Kil'jaeden probably isn't that tall. And if you wish to remove all unofficial pictures, I must warn you that you're in for a huge amount of work.-- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 22:04, 8 February 2007 (EST)

- You are missing my point:) In a very general way, the picture is fine, but it is still incorrect, as we do not know who's the current leader of the various demonic races. That fact that it shows succubi and Nathrezim as higher ranked than felguards is great, but it needs to keep it so all the way through. I just think it is a very touchy issue, as we honestly don't have much information regarding the infastructure of the Burning Legions millitary ranks and leadership.

Use the picture, but I strongly disagree.


 * Please don't edit old posts, it ruins the flow of the discussion. I'm not sure how much experience you have with the WC3 map editor, but the color of a unit depends on what team you put it in- even though Mephistroth was blue in-game, he appears red if you put him on the red team. Hence, that image implicative of Mephistroth, regardless of color and model. Similarly, that eredar could be Kil'jaeden's main agent (his name escapes me at the moment), and that Pit Lord is probably Azgalor. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 23:36, 8 February 2007 (EST)


 * Don't remove this image. It is really well made gives a Wehrmacht-like perspective on the Burning Legion, which represents very well what I (and I hope, some other people) think is the Burning Legion. Congratulations =)-- K )  (talk) 05:27, 28 April 2007 (EDT)


 * That symbol that appears in the smoke and on the thingys in the forge camps could be their flag/crest, is a better image of that in The art of burning crusaide? I CAN NOT FIND THAT BOOK ANYWHERE!-- 18:32, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Doesn't anyone find it unusual that considering the sheer scale of the Burning Legion they do not have a symbol? You'd think Sargeras would have at least created some kind of unifying theme to keep the rabble together. -- 10:16, 26 March 2008 (UTC)


 * We've probably seen it already, just not identified it. You're right though- given that we know some forces opposed the Burning Legion, and given how arrogant Archimonde and Mannoroth were, you'd think some symbol would have been made. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 00:56, 27 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I still think it is the V shaped head in the smoke.-- 01:11, 27 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I take it you're referring to this symbol? :)
 * You could be right. Or, it could be that the symbol of the Legion is the one used by the Shadow Council.
 * As a final alternative... it could be that Blizzard is following the old Warhammer theme and using an eight-pointed star, as you can see on Archimonde's codpiece and Sargeras' "medallion" (though this is a bit small, and not so clear). However, I doubt Blizzard is that unimaginative. -- 23:43, 27 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The V-head thing is also here on the Upperdeck.com March of the Legion page. -- 23:43, 7 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I uploaded this one from the art thing.-- 18:06, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

machines?
I remembered some type of cool machines in WC3 TFT...they appaered to be burning legion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by.

You are refering to the Infernal Contraptions, I think they have been upgraded/retconned into Fel Reavers.-- 21:40, 28 April 2007 (EDT)
 * If they've been retconned into anything it'd be Fel Cannons, not Fel Reavers... Of course, that's assuming that they don't exist simply because they haven't appeared yet in WoW. - Dark T Zeratul 21:51, 28 April 2007 (EDT)

I doubt there is any retcon going on. Infernal Contraptions held a different use than Fel Cannons or Fel Reavers. Also remember scale of WoW doesn't allow one to see every single thing that exists in the Warcraft Universe.Baggins 21:57, 28 April 2007 (EDT)


 * "Machines" could also be another was of saying "constructs," like Infernals. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 01:19, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

War of the Ancients
The info on the sundering is still using the old history, this was all ret-conned in the War of the Ancients Trilogy, I suggest an update be performed to bring it more inline with the rest of the current lore/canon Rukia 21:05, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * What specifically are you looking at? I just reviewed it, most of it works in either case to my eyes. -_ Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 02:49, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Specifically the information on Illidan. Illidan played a much more active role in closing the portal and left for different reasons in the revised history. His role of a double agent was very much more pronounced in the War of the Ancients History, he didn't leave just to save the well as was the original story. Rukia 15:11, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Leader
Who will leed after Kil'jaeden is defeated?(If he dies) 18:11, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Sargeras is the leader  Mr.X8  Talk Contribs  18:25, 10 February 2008 (UTC)


 * He's not necessarily "defeated", just pushed back through the portal. 20:27, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

But the question is who will lead the burning legion if Kil'Jaeden dies, right? I am not sure, but it could be that Talgath would become the new leader. He is very high in rank after all, and also an eredar, who tend to make good leaders due to their high intelligence. Or it could be Azgalor, Mephistroth, or some other high-ranking demon. --Mesethusela 03:14, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Talgath was an agent of Kil'jaeden, but we actually don't know what his official rank is. Same for Mephistroth- though we assume him to be leader of the Dreadlords, I don't think that's certain. Azgalor, we do know that he succeded Mannoroth. All in all, we don't know enough to say who comes after Kil'jaeden. Then again, don't ignore the whispers that Sargeras is still out there in the shadows... -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 14:18, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

My bet is that once Kil'jaeden gets pushed back through the portal, he'll get sent back to the Twisting Nether where he'll brood for a while, until the Burning Legion can recover. Warchiefthrall 23:42, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually an Ogri'la quest says demons don't die, rather after that they're reincarnated. So maybe he'll get reincarnated too. And someone pointed out his death animations don't actually point to death, just getting sucked back into the portal or something.  Mr.X8  Talk Contribs  02:19, 18 May 2008 (UTC)


 * In Lore demons have died. I am not sure if they can come back, and if they can how they can do it. Remember demon types go from Sargeras all the way down to an imp. In WoW demons can die of course. I haven't done any Ogri'la quests though.    Rolandius [[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]] ( talk  -  contr ) 16:35, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Twilight Hammer Clan and Dark Horde still alligned to the Legion?
Well they have been fighting each other at blackrock spire. But a blademaster of the Blackrock Clan said in Warcraft III that they were the true servants of the legion. And the Twilight Hammer allied with Gul'dan and the Shadow Council that still serve the Legion, but now they apear to be serving the Old Gods: C'thun, the one of Darkshore and Ragnaros (elemental lord). Can somebody tell me if these two groups still serve the Burning Legion? Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 06:17, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

My theory: The demon-worshipping Blackrock orcs that Arthas and Kel'Thuzad met in Warcraft III was probably a group of orcs cut away from the main Blackrock Clan in Blackrock Spire. This group of orcs was exterminated by the Scourge, which explains why they are not present in WoW.

As for the Twilight's Hammer Clan has, as you say: They left the Legion to serve the Old Gods instead.--WoWWiki-Odolwa (talk) 15:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Dimensius and Voidwalkers part of the Legion?
Really? The quests from the Protectorate to take Dimensius down make no mention of the Legion, surely something they'd want to tell any adventurers willing to help. For that matter, given Kael's loyalty to the Legion, why would Dimensius and the voidwalkers with him be interfering with Kael's Manaforge operations?

I always thought the Voidwalkers were more akin to shadow elementals. They share the same basic appearance as other elementals, even down to the shackles they wear; they don't act evil, aside from consuming life and energy, they don't seem to have any particular plan or agenda, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall ever seeing them interact with other demons, or even be near any members of the Legion. Ilmyrn 19:20, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The Voidwalker page explains it (albeit without proper citation, so maybe not). Though they are as close to shadow elementals as you can get (the shackles/bracers doing the same thing), I heard they do not use the "elemental template" in the RPG, so they are just demons.-- 19:38, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Even if they are technically demons, though, that does not automatically make them part of the Burning Legion. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 20:23, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
 * That's pretty much what I meant, though they may be demons in a technical, it doesn't seem like they have any affiliation at all, certainly not to the Legion. I should have been more claer when I said they were like elementals. I meant in behavior, not in, uh, essence, or whatever. Ilmyrn 01:36, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Lords and notable former allies
I think these sections need cleaning up. I'm not convinced that Xavius, Kael or Gul'dan count as lords of the Burning Legion, considering that they were leading their race/faction in service to the Legion, not on par with individuals such as Tichondrius or Mannoroth. Also, "Notable Former Allies of the Burning Legion" is rapidly expanding to "Anyone loosely affiliated with or screwed over by the Burning Legion." Any thoughts? -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 17:39, 13 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I am in agreement with you. It also seems to be the subject of a few minor (and pointless) edit wars.-- 23:49, 13 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, I'd suggest moving Kazzak, Xavius, Gul'dan and Kael to a new section entitled "notable underlieutenants" or somesuch, and examine "notable" allies case-by-case. "Lords" should only list Sargeras, KJ, Arch, Mannoroth, Tichondrius, Azgalor and maybe Mephistroth (who needs to be completely reexamined). -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 01:06, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
 * There, let's fiddle with that. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 01:40, 14 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure I'd even count Xavius anywhere remotely close upper levels. He was more like a dog tortured by his master, and then unleashed on the populous. Yes, he later became an Ancient but he's no where near the level of Sargeras. Kazzak is the hand of KJ, not Sargeras. Gul'dan was a tool, and so is Kael pretty much.Baggins (talk) 01:49, 14 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Hence the new section. You think Xavius should be cut completely? Speaking of which, I think the "Command structure" has gotten far too out of hand. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 03:23, 14 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Xavius and Guldan were just tools to the Burning Legion. Xavius helped summon Sargeras and converted many Highborne into Satyr, and Guldan and the Shadow Council helped corrupt the Orcs. Where do we put them?Cholchester1221 12:04 14 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Xavius still belongs in the article somewhere, since he was a creation of the Burning Legion, and 'all' satyrs are minions of the burning legion. I was just saying he's definitely not on par with Sargeras.Baggins (talk) 16:36, 14 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Right, they definetly did not belong in the "lords" section. As to their importance to the Legion, we don't know for certain if the satyrs and orcs were to be discarded after their usefulness had ended, or if they were to be drafted into the Legion as permanent minions, both of which are possibilities; I'd say leave them where they are, as they're only former allies because they're dead.-- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 20:29, 14 June 2008 (UTC)


 * But if someone was to place Xavius and Guldan in the former allies because they are dead does that not mean they should place Archimonde, Tichondrius and Mannoroth in the former allies section as well? They were major leaders but they are dead and they have replacements.--Cholchester1221 17:23, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree; former allies should not be "former" due to death, unless they were killed by their higher-ups. Xavius was still part of the Legion right up until his demise, as was Kael'thas. Gul'dan, on the other hand, was disowned by Kil'jaeden after their genocide of the Draenei (though since he was being used by Sargeras, I suppose he could still count). -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 23:58, 14 June 2008 (UTC)


 * So they stay where they are, then (not the the former allies, under "notable commanders", which should probably be renamed)? -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 00:15, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree. Someone should rename the notable commanders section. But what should they rename it? I also think that Kazzak should be placed in "Lords" section. He is the was the Field Commander on Azeroth and is now the Field commander in Outland as well of being leader of the Doomguards. --Cholchester1221 10:40, 14 June 2008

Command structure
This section needs either an excision or a major redesign. Archimonde and Kil'jaeden didn't command separate forces, they held equivalent rank with different purposes, and the section had drastically altered from rank speculation to a badly formatted list of everyone loosely affiliated with the Legion. Any thoughts? -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 18:37, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Third Invasion?
Anyone know why Highlord Kruul's attack is called a Third Invasion but the battles of Aegywynn and the dragons against the Avatar of Sargeras and his huge demon army in Northrend does not count as an invasion? Rolandius ( talk  -  contr ) 16:29, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually it's not the Highlord Kruul's attack, that is called the Third Invasion, but the reopening of the Dark Portal in Burning Crusade era. And about Aegwynn and Sargeras, not many info is written on that subject, it is not even clear that whether Aegwynn fought the actual Sargeras there or merely a shadow of him (which has been mentioned that, it could have been mere tiny fracture of Sargeras' power). Given the fact that, Sargeras is the single most powerful individual in the universe right now, it makes more sense that it was not Sargeras who fought with Aegwynn there. Neltharion (talk) 13:47, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Population
Ok where did we get estimated to number in the millions? TichondriusLives 14:49, July, 12, 2009


 * -_-" Follow the reference maybe?
 * 19:12, 12 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Ironically, someone asked after I put the quote, I mean, even if he had asked before I put the quote but... well whatever. And yes, I do realize that I came to the discussion days later but I haven't had seen it. Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 20:15, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Earth?
What happens to Earth if it says Azeroth is the only known planet the Burning Legion has failed to conquer? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by.


 * Who says Earth is part of the Warcraft universe?-- 23:06, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Then at least we won't have done ourselves in, and will be able to blame somebody else. --Super Bhaal (talk) 04:08, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It doesn't mean that the Burning Legion has conquered every other planet in the universe; just that of all the planets they've invaded, Azeroth is the only one they've failed to conquer. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 05:39, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Legion's Current Status
It would appear to me after failing to conquer Azeroth on three consecutive occasions, the Legion would be considerably weakened and not attempt any more. Archimonde is dead and Kil'jaeden is probably having second thoughts after the thrashing he recieved at the Sunwell. Not to mention that Varimathras's mini invasion on the Undercity ended rather badly for the demonic forces. Does this mean the Legion is likely weakened enough to no longer be players in future WoW expansions?AhotahThunderhorn (talk) 21:08, September 10, 2009 (UTC)
 * While they've suffered significant defeats and setbacks in recent years, I'm sure they'll continue to be a presence to some degree. The Burning Legion is vast beyond imagining, and Kil'jaeden is still alive. Moreover, he wasn't even seriously harmed by his defeat in the Sunwell. All he lost was the portal he was using to enter Azeroth. No, the Burning Legion is still a serious threat, and if their presence in future WoW expansions is diminished it's only because they're preparing for yet another possibly greater assault. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 21:29, September 10, 2009 (UTC)
 * Basically this. The Legion might be powerful beyond reckoning, but its mortal followers are not. Unfortunately it has to rely on those mortals to open op a portal, and in two of its three invasions this weakness has been the only reason it lost. If the portal could be mantained then Legion forces would keep swarming through, and eventually would inevitably win by attrition. After all, demons are almost infinite in number but the defenders of Azeroth need years to breed new soldiers. 21:54, September 10, 2009 (UTC)

Confused
After reading the Burning Legion article on a whim, I tried to edit to include information in the Defeat in Lordaeron section, like Sylvanas "turning" Varimathras to her side, killing(?) Detheroc, and defeating Balnazzar. However when I went to edit the page to add this information instead of the usually article history I found this  I'm not sure on how I could edit that, so can someone please tell me how or do the edits I mentioned themselves? --Sairez (talk)


 * The article was split in smaller articles that we include, to reduce the main article size.
 * So just edit the article Burning Legion/History and the change will appears in the main article :)
 * 20:24, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for letting me know. --Sairez (talk)


 * Undid. It's all back where it used to be. -_-
 * Don't do that. --Sky (t · c) 21:11, May 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * You can undo what you have just done Sky, you erased more than the half of the Burning Legion article.
 * The split was made to make the main article lighter, and admins agreed it. (20k instead of 60k)
 * Give it back now :)
 * 21:14, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

If you want to do it right, make a History of the Burning Legion article, take what's in this article here, put it there, and then summarize the new article here in about two or three paragraphs. Then link from this article to the History article using main or something to that effect. That said, 60k is not that big. Most images on the Internet are bigger than that these days. Don't worry about the article size unless you're in the 120k+ range. --Sky (t · c) 21:24, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not actually smaller (just because the number in the history is 20k doesn't mean the size of the article is actually 20k). And no, I didn't. The entire article is still there. I substed the entire thing and then proceeded to history merge it. Refresh the page.

Kil'jaeden and the Nathrezim
The article states that Sargeras defeated and imprisoned the nathrezim, but was troubled by their evil. He eventually turns to the dark side, frees all the demons he had imprisoned (including the nathrezim), and makes them into the Burning Legion. He then recruits Archimonde and Kil'jaeden, and Kil'jaeden's first act... Is to enslave the nathrezim. Even given the eredar retcons, this is a contradiction of, well, pretty much every description of the Burning Legion's creation. There's also no source for it. Where does this information come from? -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 01:38, 5 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I looked it up and the officially source is from the history page on the official site (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/lore/story-so-far/chapter-1/2#readmode) . The Nathrezim did agree to serve the Burning Legion and that exact line is about Kil'jaeden's involvement is "Kil'jaeden's first move was to enslave the vampiric dreadlords under his terrible power." Now my only guess is that while the Nathrezim never left the Legion, Kil'jaeden did make sure that the vast majority of them were loyal to him, and not someone like Archimonde. I also think that Sargeras never saw a problem with it because Kil'jaeden is loyal to him. --Sairez (talk) 04:58, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Well... Before the retcon, that part just reads as awkward, although I suppose it makes sense (ish), and can be explained as though Sargeras freed them and appointed Archimonde and Kil'jaeden as his generals, and they then ensured the dreadlords' loyalty. After the retcon, though... It makes no sense at all. I think it might be the one casualty of the retcon that can't be easily explained away. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 06:19, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Demonic as Secoundary Language?
Is it and Erudan not the same thing MoneygruberTheGoblin (talk)