Talk:Mutilate

The "Damage Calculation" table indicates that the damage bonus from Opportunity is applied TWICE in mutilate, once to the MH attack and once to the OH attack. The section I'm talking about currently reads:

Mainhand Base Damage = Base Damage + Mutilate Bonus Damage Mainhand Damage = Mainhand Base Damage * Poison Bonus * Opportunity Mainhand Critical Damage = Mainhand Damage * (2 + Lethality) Offhand Base Damage = (Base Damage * Offhand Reduction) + ( Mutilate Bonus Damage * (1 + (.1 * Dual Wield Specialization Rank)) Offhand Damage = Offhand Base Damage * Poison Bonus * Opportunity Offhand Critical Damage = Offhand Damage * (2 + Lethality) Minimum Mutilate Damage = Mainhand Damage + Offhand Damage Maximum Mutilate Damage = Mainhand Critical Damage + Offhand Critical Damage

I strongly believe it is supposed to read:

Mainhand Base Damage = Base Damage + Mutilate Bonus Damage Mainhand Damage = Mainhand Base Damage * Poison Bonus Mainhand Critical Damage = Mainhand Damage * (2 + Lethality) Offhand Base Damage = (Base Damage * Offhand Reduction) + ( Mutilate Bonus Damage * (1 + (.1 * Dual Wield Specialization Rank)) Offhand Damage = Offhand Base Damage * Poison Bonus Offhand Critical Damage = Offhand Damage * (2 + Lethality) Minimum Mutilate Damage = ( Mainhand Damage + Offhand Damage ) * Opportunity Maximum Mutilate Damage = ( Mainhand Critical Damage + Offhand Critical Damage ) * Opportunity

In addition, I think this page should clarify that the choice between these talents (Opp. / DWS) is a vital one concerning Mutilate - since it is impossible to have both (this should also be clearly stated). I'm not sure if there should be a definitive statement about the relative power of the two, I'm guessing the actual calculations might be a bit too technical for most readers, and the differences are actually quite small. (Basically, Opportunity is slightly better unless your OH is much better than your MH and/or both your weapons are very weak - as in a leveling situation).

If I get no comments here I will make these changes/additions to the article myself in about 1 week from signing date :) (Note: I removed a redundant unsigned DWS/Opp.-related comment from this talk page) - Asherett 02:40, 1 July 2007 (UTC)


 * My equation is mathematically the same as your equation with opportunity factored out. To simplify, assume a=b*c*d and w=x*c*d and your final result is a+w.  In your equation, a=b*c and w=x*c  and you finish with (a+w)*d, which if you distribute the c, is a*d + w*d, and since a=b*c, a=b*c*d same goes for w.


 * Also, as far as in game goes, since mutilate is displayed as two separate numbers it would probably make more sense to the reader to see the actual number each hand would display (and each hand includes its own opportunity bonus). Let me know if my explanation wasn't clear, and I'll try to explain it differently.


 * As far as the choice between Opp/DW, I agree that the page should state that it is impossible to have both, I overlooked that. And because of the way DW affects the mutilate bonus damage, a DW spec build would often barely be less (10-15 if the weapons are near the same power) than an Opportunity build in terms of mutilate damage (and much more in white damage).


 * Beyond that, there are other factors to consider between the two specs (other things in the combat/subtlety tree, what type of pvp you're doing.), so maybe just explaining the difference in mutilate damage between the two is extremely small and you can't have both at the same time would be whats necessary on the Mutilate page, since the other information might be a little bit off topic. I'm not sure myself either.
 * - Undread 18:06, 1 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Ohh, thanks for your answer. I'm certainly humbled, I forgotten far too much from my math classes way back :) I think you've countered both my points well, so I agree fully with your last paragraph.
 * Asherett 22:25, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Normalisation
According to wowwiki mutilate is normalised. I'm really not sure what this means, does this mean having two 1.4 speed daggers with the same average dps hits the same with mutilate (or indeed backstab and ss) as two 1.8 speed daggers? This seems really unlikely to me since blizzard give items with the slow speeds for mainhands and off hand daggers with speed 1.8 all have "mutilate" in the name somewhere. So does normalisation mean that just the increase to base attack power sets the speed to 1.7 (or 2.6 for non daggers) or does the weapon damage itself get normalised (hence a weapon with the same dps value as another will hit the same), I'm a little confused by this


 * What normalization means is that the Attack-Power-Bonus aspect of weapon damage is now normalized to 1.7 for daggers. There is still a base component to the overall damage that relies solely on the actual weapon damage. What this does is slightly improve the damage of weapons faster than 1.7 and slightly reduce the damage of weapons slower than 1.7. The general formula for damage of an instant or white attack is: weapon damage + 1.7*(attack power / 14). This means a 1.8 speed dagger will do more damage with mutilate (or white damage) than a 1.4 speed dagger, assuming both daggers have the same dps.

I haven't a clue, but if it was normalised, wouldn't those slow daggers actually lower your dps with reduced poison applications?Warden Shadowsong (talk) 17:18, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Poisons are also normed to a proc per minute basis. This means that slower weapons are slightly better for poisons since you apply the same amount of instant attacks with a slow weapon as a fast weapon, yet in both cases the proc/minute is the same.