Talk:Horde/Analysis

Horde lore jumps the shark
Yup the horde is no longer a group of misunderstood races trying to find their place in the world. They are now just mindless evil creatures waiting to be killed. This wallpaper says it all.

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Looks like an evil horde full of half naked elves was more profitable for Blizzard. So all the character development in Warcraft 3 and lord of the clans was completly wasted. The horde has no been sadled with an evil and the alliance with a pure angelic race. Looks like Grom and Durotan wasted their lives, for the horde is back to being evil creatures with no purpose other then to die. Makes me glad I rerolled alliance. I mean what purpose is their playing a faction with dead wasted lore,half assed towns and quests,and has been officialy labled as the evil side with no purpose other then to die. Thrall should have given up,just let the races of Azeroth kill the orcs. For the proud orcs have de evolved from shamans unfairly persecuted by humans. (http://www.sonsofthestorm.com/warcraft_samwise010c.html#gallery) to dumb bloodthirsty caveman waiting to die to the perfect humaan.(http://www.sonsofthestorm.com/warcraft_samwise032b.html#gallery). The Tauren are now just dumb beasts for the dwarves to hunt,trolls just thin morons who should have gotten eaten by murlocs and undead the pure evil creatures that were put into the horde for marketing. And of course Blood elves the evil babes with big Tits. While the alliance has gotten a pure angelic race the horde has been tied down by antother evil race. The noble shamans are now dead replaced by dumb evil monsters. I mean lets face it Blizzard has given up on the horde since the game started. They got half assed towns,the alliance got great towns,no exclusive mounts or pets,almost no chairs while almost everyone alliance town was full of them. And now the finals straw has gone,the horde has gotten big breasted evil elves. You should have just let ya race be eternal slaves  Thrall,even thats better then whats happened to ya now. Drek'thar

Drek'thar, I gotta agree with you one hundred percent. The Horde, what with their crappy, easily raided towns(lookin' at you, Thunder Bluff), poor racial talents(shadow-meld versus cannabalism? You cant eat what you dont see!), and unbalanced races (a gnome isn't too small to be a warriror, but a tauren is too big to be a rogue) have obviously been ignored by blizzard. Its easier to make the 'bad guys' look ugly and scary, and have the 'good guys' be angelic and holy, than to have actual in depth content. Blizzard has spent so much time trying to prove that although the nightelves did bring down death and destruction, and cause the burning legion invasion, it wasnt really there fault. Yet the orcs are evil because they were once tricked by a demon? How's that work out? I try to play the horde, but i tell you, when i see the alliance's more numerous guards, extra epic mounts, and more detailed scenery, i get temped to switch over...and people wonder why the Alliance outnumbers the Horde 2to1 on every server! Ringoffire 13:36, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

Logic/Grammar/Literary Originality > You First off, I don't think Blizzard has turned the Horde into the "bad guys." Yes, you've got a point with the imagery of that wallpaper displaying the Blood Elves as antagonistic, but I don't think they intended them to be evil. Granted, they do have a darker tone to them (what with the colors they wear and their demonic magic syphoning) than th Night Elves or Humans (or any other of the "pretty" races, for that matter). But at its roots the horde is based as the "bad-guys" of the WarCraft series, so showing Thrall and his band of Orcs in a more defined, old-English city (or any other type of architecture featuring smooth edges and lighter tones, for that matter) wouldn't fit with the Orc's rugged and previously savage culture. The same goes for all of the races of the Horde (save for the newly added Elves). The Horde is comprised of the more magically-attuned, spiritual races, and the Alliance is more geared towards religion, technology, and "civility" (depending on how you want to use the word). WarCraft III showed us that, for all their gruff and harsh lifestyles, the Horde are just another point-of-view on the whole situation, and fight against the same enemies that the Alliance does. I do aggree about questing and raids, the Alliance got a huge advantage over the Horde with the ease at which they can get keyed and attuned for the dungeons (among the other quests), but I still think it's fun to play a Horde. My main is alliance, but I like playing the Horde for the more natural feel of the cultures they have. And considering how gentle and nature-loving the tauren are, I doubt many see them as "dumb beasts." --Vivi

I agree with the above statement. All races in-game have their own good and bad sides. Even Blood Elves. If the Blood Elves are so rotten to the bone (litterarily), then why can you fight Kael'Thas and Illidan in the expansion if you are a Blood Elf? Are the Blood Elves in the horde really that evil as Kael'Thas or Illidan? No! That's the reason why the playable Blood Elves can fight Kael'Thas and Illidan! Because they may feel that Kael'Thas has become evil, and needs to be destroyed! If Blizzard had not made so Horde could fight Kael'Thas or Illidan, it would become unfair that only alliance players could confront them! Besides, I think Blizzard has a trick up his sleeve that explains why the playable Blood Elves would turn against their leader. Keep in mind that most of the blood elves on Azeroth doesn't know that Kael'Thas is allied with Illidan. --Kulsprutejojjo 16:40, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

One of the big problems with the horde is the character models are awful. They have should given orcs a blade master like body,and trolls should hunch but only in combat. And I really hate the whole Ha ha we're evil aproach they do with blood elves(One of the cms even called them evil) and forsaken. And its even more humilating that we get dark paladins. Honestly its horrible for the orcs,trolls,and tauren to have half the quests be evil. Maybe it was just easier to make the horde evil. I want the true shamanistic honorable horde of Orcs,trolls,tauren and stonemaul ogres,screw blood elves and their two dimensional personalities. Drek'thar


 * Keep in mind then, Drek'Thar, that the orcs, taurens and trolls is in an unstable alliance with both the Blood Elves and the Forsaken, plus that most members of the other races don't know what th forsaken and the blood elves are up to. They think the forsaken's first priority is redemption, and they accept the blood elves because of their strategic value. Keep in mind that all current races in the horde are in the process of recovering. The orcs, that recover from the corruption. The trolls, that lost their home due to murlocs. The tauren, who were constantly raided by centaurs, and finally have gotten a permanent home. The forsaken, who recently got freed from the scourge that they have sworn to destroy. And the blood elves, who are trying to recover themselves from their magic addiction, and tries to seek a cure. I can also remind you that the playabl Blood Elves can fight Kael'Thas and Illidan in the expansion, maning that there may be a twist in the blood elven society, with the Kael'Thas loyalists and the separatists who oppose Illidan (which we appearently will play). That is proof enough that the blood elves are not all-thrugh evil, just like the forsken, who has suffered very much being seen as monstrs and having being undead. So no, the horde is not really evil, much like the alliance. --Kulsprutejojjo 12:39, 15 August 2006 (EDT)

Its only getting worse,I hear the expansion is making the orcs seem like Genocidal bastards who want to kill the draenei for no reason and making the blood elves have a quest to vandalise Uther's tomb. And people say Blizzard didn't ruin the horde's lore? Drek&#39;thar


 * I strongly disagree that the blood elves are "har har we're evil," in your words. They're as morally ambiguous as any other Horde race. Their actions are, of course, morally quesitonable, but much of the Horde's character asks you to consider whether or not the ends justifies the means. They were tragically created -- it was no fault of their own. And in order to reclaim their former glory, they have to resort to questonable methods. The alternative? To wallow in suffering. So, when you say the Horde is more evil than before, I can't agree at all. Thrall didn't back down when Proudmoore threatened his people. He gave the humans a chance, and then attacked when his people were threatened. The blood elves gave the Alliance a chance, and the Alliance rejected them. With their people threatened, they have to do whatever it takes to survive. I would agree that the Horde are now more morally ambiguous than before, but certainly not "evil." Metzhan isn't that black and white.

Lets see...The horde is led by a race of Green kinned aliens who takepart in genocide, and currently consists of a race of Cannabalistic, tusked voodoo users, a bunch of Overgrown, dumb-dumb bovines who don't know any better (most likely the product of a zoophiliac farmer and a slutty cow), and a race of rotting, moving corpses (who enjoy mutilating humans and creating life from their remains). And, joining the team this january: A race of drug-addicted elves who will get to play as a paladin...an EVIL paladin...Yep, sounds like the definition of a bunch of misunderstood creatures trying to make the world a better place. Ringoffire 15:42, 23 December 2006 (EST)


 * You forget the motivation behind them all. The Horde embodies the idea of the Dark Knight, the anti-hero, or the "badass good guy." Almost every race in the Horde has a nasty past: demonic corruption, savage cannibalism, death by plague and invasion, and magic addiction. In many cases, each race could not control the circumstances that led to these events. The orcs were corrupted by the Burning Legion but repented and embraced their old shamanistc society. The trolls, too, gave up their savage ways and joined the new Horde. The Forsaken were plunged into undeath without their consent: the Scourge invaded their homeland, and the Lich King overtook their minds and bodies. The blood elves, too, suffered the invasion of the Scourge. They wouldn't have an inkling of evil if not for Arthas' invasion. ~


 * Each "evil" race has a past filled with some injustice, something that made them horrible. Some turned away from that. Others are in the process of recovery. Each embraces its flaws, though, and uses them to further a good cause -- a campaign against the Scourge, against the awakened Qiraj, or for their own survival. Therefore, the moral state of the Horde is ambiguous at best, and marking them as clearly "evil" ignores much of their past and the motivations behind their actions. 16:28, 23 December 2006 (EST)

Wow. I have to get in on this debate.

Let’s look at who is really responsible for the evil which plagues Azeroth. 1 – First off, I think we can all agree that the origin of all evil which plauges the good lands of Azeroth is caused by the Burning Legion. And who leads the Burning Legion? Why, Sargeras, of course! A titan! So, the root of all evil in Azeroth is Sargeras. But it doesn’t stop there.

2- Sargeras, to further his dream of a chaotic universe, unleashed the Nathrezim upon cosmos. In his search to find a perfect army, Sargeras stumbled upon the Eredar race. From these highly intelligent beings, Sargeras picked up two powerful leaders to command his forces, Kil'jaeden the Deciever and Archimonde the Defiler. “A third Eredar lord, Velen, refused Sargeras' offer and fled from Argus with his followers, renaming them the Draenei, or Exiled Ones. Velen and the Draenei fled across several planets, but eventually settled down on a distant world which they renamed Draenor, or Exiles' Refuge.” This means that the Draenei produced the most feared agents of the Burning Legion, seconds only to the titan Sargeras himself. If we blame a race for the actions of individual members, then the Draenei stand first and foremost among the condemned.

3- The Draenei aren’t the only ones, however, who need to be brought to reckon for “their” crimes. The night elves, too, have a large crime on their hands. “The highborne Queen Azshara was impressed and overwhelmed by Sargeras' great power, and agreed to allow him entrance to her world if only for a taste of a portion of his knowledge and energy. Thus did the first invasion of Azeroth begin.” What statement does that make concerning a race, if their highest leader is willing to betray an entire world all for something so petty as greed? The night elves produced one of the most foul, despicable traitors in the history of Azeroth. And, once again, if races must pay for the actions of individuals, then the night elves are just as worthy of comdemnation as the draenei. Of course, the night elves did eventually rebel against their queen and prevent Sargeras from entering Azeroth…at the last moment. It was an act of self-defense; not guided by any notions of morality.

4 – So, where does Sargeras go after this plot fails? To the humans. Specifically, to a demon-slayer known as Aegwynn. Sargeras was able to trick the sorceress into becoming a host for his spirit. Using her, he impregnated Aegwynn and she gave birth to a son named Medivh. Sargeras then took control of Medivh and used him to unleash the Horde on Azeroth. So far, and so deep was his corruption that the only solution was to slay Medivh.

Yes, there are those who argue that Gul’dan was responsible for the deaths that were inflicted on the humans and dwarves, but had the human Medivh not betrayed his own kind and provided a portal into Azeroth, Gul’dan and his forces would have been harmless. Figuratively speaking, the Horde was the gun. By itself, it could do nothing. Someone needed to pull the trigger, and that oblidging finger was provided by the human Medivh.

5- Incredibly, the cycle does not end with Medivh’s death. Ner’zhul, after unsuccessfully attempting to escape the demon Kil’Jaiden, was ripped to shreds and transformed into the Lich King. In other words, Ner’Zhul ceased to be Ner’Zhul, and all of the things associated with him (his race, his religion, his needs) ended with his transformation. The Lich King is a purely demonic creation.

And who does this Lich King seek out for a servent? A human mage named Kel'Thuzad. And this wasn’t just any run-of-the-mill mage. This was a prominent member of Dalaran’s elite Kirin Tor. What did the Lich King have to do in order to subvert this human? Tear him to pieces, like Kil’Jaiden had to do to Ner’Zhul? Corrupt a powerful magic-user, like Sargeras had to do to Medivh in order to manipulate Gul’Dan? No. The only thing the Lich King had to do was offer power; and Kel’Thuzad’s human nature took over; just as Queen Azshara’s night elven nature got the best of her so many years ago.

6- So, who does Kel’Thuzad recruit into the Cult of the Damned? Does he seek out the trolls, whose voodoo and cannabalism would fit the deranged mentality of the Lich King? Does he seek out the “dumb” tauren (whom one can “convince” of anything)? No. The Cult is composed of human and night elves, all giving into their natural lust for power.

7- The Draenei produced Kil’Jaiden and Archimonde, willing servants of Sargeras. The night elves produced Queen Azshara and her followers, the Highborne who, willingly, accepted Sargeras’s offer of power in return for their betrayal of their world. The humans produced Aegwynn, Medivh (the agent of corruption among the orcs of Draenor), Kel’Thuzad (another willing servant of the Lich King, and, ultimately, Sargeras), and, finally the pinnacle of human civilization: Arthas.

Arthas, the noble paladin, strong in the Light, destined to be the savior of humanity. Arthas, the arrogant and implusive paladin, quick in action, confidant in ability, who sought out Frostmourne against the advice of his closest friends and advisors. Arthas, the desperate and short-sighted paladin, who placed his personal grudge and his own satisfaction of vengence above his people when he slew Mal'Ganis And, finally, Arthas. The fallen and corrupted dark knight, loyal servant of the Lich King, and betrayer of his people. How did the blood elves become the desperate, magic-addicted race that they are now? Arthas.

How did the Forsaken become infected with the plague in the first place? Arthas.

Is the Lich King any excuse for Arthas’s fall? Well, why not look to the Lich King himself, for an example! Ner’Zhul, upon realizing Kil’Jaiden’s deception, began to subvert the demons plans. It was Ner’Zhul who informed Thrall’s father of the corruption which the demon was planning to spread, thus sparing the Frostwolf Clan from the grasp of the Burning Legion. Ner’Zhul attempted to escape from the demon, opening portals to Azeroth. Unfortunately, Gul’dan (now tainted because of Medivh’s corrupting efforts) tipped off the demon, and Ner’Zhul was captured. Even given the option of returning to the demon’s service, Kil’Jaiden had to literally rip Ner’Zhul apart before he could reform him as the Lich King. Arthas made no such sacrifices, no such efforts on the behalf of his own people. Indeed, when the Lich King was threatened by Illidan, Arthas returned and willingly meshed with the Lich King to protect him; such was the faithfulness with which Arthas served his new master.

So, in conclusion, let’s look at how evil entered the world of Azeroth.

Several Eredar (essentially Draenei) willing joined Sargeras’s Burning Legion.

The Queen of the night elves, and her loyal followers, betrayed their world in exchange for the promise of power from Sargeras.

The humans Aegwynn, Medivh, Kel’Thuzad, and Arthas all betrayed their people. Aegwynn, perhaps the most “innocent” of the four, gave birth to Medivh. Medivh corrupted the orcs, turning them into the bloodthirsty Horde which invaded Azeroth and slew Medivh’s fellow humans. Kel’Thuzad, of his own free will, became subordinate to the Lich King, created the Cult of the Damned (which consisted entirely of humans and night elves), and inflicted the plauge upon his own people. And, finally, Arthas. The pinnacle of humanity, a knight of the Silver Hand, put his own ambitions and greed before his own people and became a servent of the Lich King; and, oh, by the way, is responsible for creating the blood elves and their addiction to magic, on top of creating the Forsaken.

Humans, night elves, draenei. All stand guilty of crimes beyond compare, if we are going to judge a race based on the actions of it’s individuals.--Weisskrieg 02:44, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Moral Ambiguity
The Horde isn't better than the Alliance ! Both sides have evil and good persons. But the Alliance was formerly good and the Horde was evil, they both changed a little bit.--Kirochi 07:55, 12 Mar 2006 (EST)
 * To phrase it somewhat differently... Chris Metzen has always been a big fan of turning stereotypes on their heads — for instance, noble dark elves (Night Elves), evil high elves (Blood Elves), deeply spiritual orcs, even having the bad guy win at the end (Frozen Throne). As a result, many of the characters in the games have very complex, morally ambiguous characters. The most honorable character in the game is probably the orc leader Thrall, while the horde sees humans are often seen as deplorable, racist, and dishonest. In my opinion, I definitely think this strengthens the story and makes it more believeable to have such complex personalities in a fantasy setting.


 * The racist Human commanders, the arrogant Night Elves who think the moon shines out their arses, the dwarves having little regard for others when it suits them. Even the almighty "goodie" alliance has its flaws. The major theme of the horde is one thing and one simple common uniting thing alone. Tragedy and persecution from the alliance. The horde is simply the counter-weight to the Alliance, those races that the Alliance feels are beneath it, that don't conform to its rigid and narrow world view. I see the alliance as the jocks and the horde as the unpopular kids. Neither are really evil, but both distrust each other. The jocks because the "weird kids" don't fit into their idea of normal, and the Alternative lifestyle kids because the Jocks shun them for no good reason other then they are different.


 * My two cents. --Nurizeko

Ha... Saying the entire Alliance is Blue-Blooded is comepletely narrow-minded. Hell, it is possible(yet not probable) that the Horde members would've been part of the Alliance, yet every Horde race(expect the Tauren)have instigated immoral and unrighteous hostility towards the members of Alliance in their pasts. The thing is, the Alliance was originaly created to protect the good people of Azeroth against the HORDE. I would say that although it is wrong, it is highly understandable that the Alliance members still hold a HUGE grudge. Besides, I would say he Alliance is the titan-blest faction, not because I think they are better, but I happen to believe the theory that Gnomes and Humans are related to the Dwarves, which would prove the similar cultures and ideas. Very little of the Alliance trust the Night Elves because Dwarves and Night Elves have an old, and unfriendly past together. Now note, if you wish to prejudeuce enough to call 4-5 entire races prejudeauce, then you truly are uneducated. I wouldn't see the Alliance as the jocks, I would see them as maybe the "Preppies", the rich guys who appear innocent, and get picked on, but when push comes to shove, can muster much more power then any other klick. The Horde would be more of the jocks due to their "lore-based" uneducated status compared to Alliance members, and their obvious physical superioty. I mean, the education of the Alliance is obvioisly superior to that of the Horde, for expample, the Gnomes are one of the most(if not THE most)advanced race in Azeroth, they are exellent scientists. The Dwavres are huge historians and archeolgists. The Humans are major huge Theoligists and Arcanists. And I am not saying that the Horde are unintelligent, yet it is obvious that they are much less educated. And I know I am a bit late to answer, yet I feel it is my duty to protect the Alliance from unrighteous insults. Acjpb 06:50, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think Dwarves and humans have that much of a relation. Aren't Dwarves originally made from stones? I don't think that Nurizeko is talking about nerds and jocks in terms of intelligence. I think he's leaning more towards the idea that the Horde gets bullied alot. I do remember that most of the Orcs was put into internment camps, I see Admiral Proudmoore picking fights with Thrall(somewhat understandable grudge), Forsaken are being hunted by the Scarlet Monastary, and the Dwarves are digging up some lands in Mulgore (Bael'dun Digsite). Even now the world is designed unfairly in my opinion. On wowwiki, if you look up the article on Thrall, there's a strategy on how to defeat him, where players would just take the back entrance to reach him (avoiding the whole confrontation in front). I don't really see a need for the back entrance. The Night Elves and Draenai capital is an island and hard to reach. Have you seen the capital of the Forsaken (nasty sewers, they could've just lived on the first floor) The Undercity also has a back entrance. I remember a few months ago, where alliance members raided Ogrimmar and Undercity (with easy success). In retaliation, I joined a raid group and try to take down Stormwind. And what did I see? I didn't see a back entrance, the city was like a maze, and the alliance leader is not pvp. We couldn't touch the king. (I'm guessing this is the fault of the level designers). Also, I wouldn't say that the Alliance can muster more power than any other. That is somewhat of a bias remark. If they did, Lordaeron would not be in pieces, Knights of the Silver Hand would still exist, Gnomeregan would not be overrun by Trogs, Dalaran would still be standing, the Burning Legion would've been wiped out in that area, Stormwind City would not have a King gone missing, and the Undead in the eastern kingdoms would be wiped out by now. I guess my point would be that every side has their own story. The Horde is treated unfairly and the Alliance has lost too much within a sort period of time. Extremedeath 6:37, July 24, 2007.

Question about the Horde - Alliance War
In past Warcraft history (up until somewhere during WC3) the Alliance were noted as the 'good guys' and the Horde was usually the 'bad guys'. But now the Horde is being ruled by Thrall, a very 'friendly' warchief, and the Alliance by a kid. Why are they still fighting each other? Is there really any reason for the Alliance vs. Horde struggle other than that it keeps the lore going and gives the game the PvP option? Do they really have something against each other? In WC3 they worked together, and really it seems more of that the Alliance is more unfriendly towards the Horde rather than visa versa. Maybe not all of the Humans fought with the Horde on the last battle in WC3, but all the Orcs how are supposidly the playable Orcs in WoW did, so won't they treat the Humans more friendly now? Was there some event that I might be missing that will explain their renewed hatred? - stavious October 20 2006, 17:39

According to the WarCraft RPG, yes. According to it, Admiral Proudmoore's fleets attack made it so that Theramore and Durotar aren't totally on friendly terms anymore, but more neutral. Also, if you saw Admiral Proudmoore's opinions on the Orcs, you would know that many Azerothians think that Orcs need to be wiped of the earth, the Orcs are only defending themselves. That's the way I see it. Saimdusan


 * I would love to see a good answer to this. Even the RPG doesn not give reason for a hostile status. Neutral, not likely. Friendly, certainly not. Unfriendly, perfect. But so far, all i see are gameplay reasons for the renewed War and the hostile status. -- Zeal ( talk  -  contr  - web) 15:48, 23 December 2006 (EST)


 * It is stated by NPC's in WoW that most orcs believed the humans would betray them sooner or later.. and with Proudmoores attack it was "proved" that "all" humans are treacherous and just wants to fight everything that doesn't look like them.. So Proudmoores attack and the animosity that lingered on both sides from the earlier wars should be reason enough.. -Rovdyr 13:40, 30 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, from what I've gathered, the Horde and Alliance are in more of a "cold war" than anything. The battlegrounds, however, don't really make sense as it shows more that the two factions ARE at war. Reasons like that are why I prefer to play on PvE and RP servers: occasional attack from the opposite faction, but not like the chaos of a PvP server. [[Image:IconSmall_Mage.gif|Mage]]Archmage Rodyn (talk) 18:45, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Warlocks?
I thought Thrall banned warlock magic?--Ramming pure 05:03, 31 January 2007 (EST)


 * Nah, sadly blizzard decided to make up weak lore so they could be a playable race. Basically he allowed them as he knew he could keep an eye on them and root out traitors easier by doing so. -- Zeal  talk   contr  web 12:46, 31 January 2007 (EST)


 * UGH! GO to ORgrimmar, READ the quests, PLAY them, and you'll understand that there is a long history of Warlock magic in the Old Horde before WC2. In WC2, Doomhammer killed the Shadow Council, but that didn't stop them from Manipulating the Horde. IN WC3, The orcs rebell, but there are still some who want to practice Warlock magic. There is the Burning Blade cult that is working in Org in secret, quite unknown to Thrall, and THAT is where the Warlocks are coming from. Stop bashing the creators and think about someone other than yourself for a change! Eman91 02:08, 23 February 2008 (UTC)Eman91 18:07 22 February 2008 (PST)

Its a horrible explaniation but its nowhere near as bad as Thrall letting in Blood knights. Angry ogre 14:31, 21 February 2007 (EST)

Ogre, i'm honestly amazed you haven't been banned yet, you refuse to listen to reason, you are obsessed with the idea that what you say is correct, can't you at least listen to what other people say? Although their were some people who agreed with you in the beginning, now more or less everyone is aware that the blood elves and the blood knights are not evil. Hordesupporter 14:28, 3 April 2007 (EDT)

I swear to God you guys take this stuff to much to heart. Everyone has their own opinion. And to be honest I think both Ogre and Hordesupporter are way to biased. Dunnsworth (talk) 21:45, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Ways the Horde problem could be fixed
Here are things Metzen could do to fix the horde problem. Of course he won't do it.

1.Make the Draenei commit some great crime,this would also distance the draenei from Mary sues(chosen by gods,Infalliable,have fancy techonology,Main bad guy obessed with them,related to the main badguy,have inate powers over the light,physically flawless. These are all traits one finds in Mary sues. Definetly a race of complete Mary sues).

2.Give horde real paladins instead of the idiotic mockladins(its basicaly a class requirement to be evil).

3.Give Alliance a race like the Forsaken and blood elves.

4.Give Horde a non evil race like Mok'nathal or ogres

Too bad Metzen is too busy counting money and thinking of ways to get more of it. Angry ogre 01:30, 21 February 2007 (EST)

JESUS FUCK! The HORDE races ARE NOT evil. The blood elves are merely misguided. The forsaken are only in Horde for convience. Pay attention to what goes on inside the goddamned game and quests. And stop bashing Metzen. He works hard to make this lore and this great game, and then he sees it getting slandered by spoiled rotten 12-year-old brats who are like "MOG, teh HOrde is not purfict, there iz 2 mani ungood things abowt teh Horde, Metzen just wants teh cash". I'm surprised Metzen even continues making these games when babies like you are smashing it apart. Read the interviews Metzen gives to PC magazines. He explicitly states his reasons for the Forsaken and the Blood Elves. The Horde races are not evil, the only even remotely bad race is the Forsaken and SOME of the Blood Elves. I'm sick and tired of you ignorant basketcases shitting all over the games people who are much better than you work so hard to make! Eman91 02:02, 23 February 2008 (UTC)Eman91


 * sigh* Please stop refering to them as "mockladins", it's true they used a very questionable method of gaining the power of the holy light, but that doesn't mean their evil, off the top of my head, only the night elves and high elves call the blood elves evil in-game. An alliance paladin would prob consider a blood knight evil, but maybe not a typical blood elf. Hordesupporter 23:22, 21 February 2007 (EST)


 * 1. Draenei are far from perfect as a race, You have the uptight aldor up in arms because a bunch of filthy bloodelves are in their pristine perfect city. Then you have the morally corrupt ones that are near auchindouin feeding souls to one of their exarchs. They have their problems, I mean, look at how many were lost in the Exodar crash...
 * 2. The mockladins aren't exactly evil, mind. They're just really, really, angry. If you were abandoned in a war, which the Paladins did once Uther died, wouldn't you be mad? You'd want to hit them right where it hurt. And the 60 belfadin mount quest, you not only kick them while they're down, but you kick them where it hurts. And they feel it. Enough to send a mobile death squad right at you. Are the Belves afflicted by blind zealousness? Are the Scarlet crusade evil for taking a part of Stratholme and destroying scourge and safeguarding themselves by executing those that may carry the taint of the plague? Are the Belfadins evil because they hate the scourge and the alliance so much that they arrogantly slap their face when they get the chance?
 * 3. Alliance don't need Deaders or Belves. Deaders and Belves both hate the same thing that destroyed their lives. So do Humans. All three hate the scourge! Hey! Maybe there should be a Belf-Deader-Human faction called The Alliance and everyone else can become the horde? I like the prospect of four-foot-tall demon-controlling evil engineers that come from the bowels of the earth, driven to the surface from the radioactive genocide they unleashed apon their own bretheren... to join forces with the orcs, because their inventions bake cookies, which we know the orcs love so-so very much.
 * 4. Ogres aren't evil? I'd like you to please inform all 98% of those ogres that like to eat any humanoid smaller than them. And Mok'nathal would be a copout. Nice concept, but it's a copout. Big, burly, brown orcs. Same model. I can see all the stupid stereotypes flooding the RP server I'm on already with politically incorrect names.
 * And the not-so-NPOV was intentional. ^_^ You took it to an extreme and said the Horde need fixing, I took my argument to the extreme and said the Horde are fine as they are, and could be worse :) Hemical 10:16, 18 March 2007 (EDT)

The elfadins have one thing in common with their alliance counterparts, they are the protectors of their race, and their race's allies, go through the elfadin quests and this is bluntly obvious.

More or less the only non-evil ogres in existence right now are the stonemaul tribe.

You often say that someone said that elfadins are "the evil counterpart of the paadin" and claim Blizzard said that, while I don't know if thats really Blizzard said, if they did it was probably meant as comparison, like compared to A alliance paladin the elfadins could seem evil, however it is true that in comparison angels are evil in comparison to God as well. Hordesupporter 14:22, 3 April 2007 (EDT)


 * To the comment made by Hemical, Ogres eat humanoids as a source of food. Hunting a race or species for food does not make you evil. If it does then all races are evil. It is just evil in the eyes of someone who is not used to it. As orcs see that it is honorable "bathe in the blood" of their kills I am sure that a human would frown upon that and call it barbaric. --Kulrak 01:11, 16 November 2007

Blood elves

 * Moved from Talk:Horde (article). I wanted your opinions as i'm still questioning the statement that User:AntiAlliance is talking about.

That thingy with Blood elves being shunned because of demonic magic is not true, they where nearly exterminated by the evil racist Grand Marshal Garithos after being sent on a suicide mission. Knew your lore before writing an article full of false information! /AntiAlliance

Not the whole race was send on the suicide mission so it can't be nearly exterminated. /Keilden


 * Blood Elves were never aligned to Alliance, because they broke away from the Night Elves, at the time known as the "Highborne", during the War of the Ancients. Anyway, cut a long story short, they got their ass kicked by the Scourge, some went to Outland to aid Illidan and some stayed.


 * Now then, I am aware that the High Elves did indeed remove themselves from the Alliance, due to them believing that not enough aid was given to them to protect Quel'thalas, and then the dismissive and racist treatment by Lord Garithos' probably didn't help.


 * Therefore it is acceptable to put this into the article, but not in the way that you, AntiAlliance, put it in. I would suggest taking a more neutral tone, and if needs be explain a little more about why the Blood elves defected.


 * Also, please sign posts with ~ -- 07:16, 13 April 2007 (EDT)


 * So how would that "neutral tone" towards Garithos' you describe look like? The current description is plain wrong and must be removed. AntiAlliance 14:14, 13 April 2007


 * Well actually, Garithos' actions were toward the High elves were they not? Blood elves, while they are still decendents of High elves, are a different race. They won't faction with Alliance because of the treatment their High Elf relatives received during the Second War, and the Alliance wouldn't allie with them anyway, due to their obsession with Magic. Also, you're going to have a lot of trouble editting articles of Lore with a username such as that, expect to be met with Hostility and claims of being extremely bias. -- 08:41, 13 April 2007 (EDT)


 * No, Garithos persecuted Blood Elves. Kael named them that before they went to outland.  He drops the name on Tyrande and Maiev before we even know Garithos exists.  And, no they will never go back to the Humans, and the Night Elves and Draenei will never want them in their group.  Meneldir


 * People seem to forget that the HE left the Alliance since after WC II... just read the WC III manual, or WC Day of the Dragon. Saimdusan 08:12, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually while many HE left the Alliance, a large amount remained, those of Dalaran mainly. Thus the healers and casters in WC3.Baggins 08:27, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

The Horde is not evil, it's just Tolerant
Ok, I'm going to use a real life good and evil example. I am a nerd, and proud of it. Most would consider me to be fairly strait-laced goody-two shoes, and I've been both mocked and respected for it. Now, at the same time, some of my best friends are the exact opposite. Rebels without a cause who loved to have a good time. They respected my standards, but they weren't the same as mine. Now what would be the right thing to do? Completely cut them off, label them as evil, judge them and never give them a chance, or remain friends, and help where I can, trying to be an example showing proper respect for another human being who makes choices that perhaps I don't agree with. Now, why can't the Horde be the same way without everyone claiming them to be evil. Ok, sure one could argue guilt by association, but honestly, I have more respect for the Horde in their abillity to accept those who they don't agree with and attempt to be a good influence than I do for the entirely prejudiced, unforgiving, and frightfully cliquish Alliance, where if you aren't what they think you should be you are their enemy. The Orcs are just as noble as they ever were. The Tauren haven't slipped a bit, and what's more, both these races are mature enough to accept those who don't always think along the same lines. Meneldir


 * I agree, good post. Also the Horde tolerance aside, having had your people nearly wiped out by an undead plague, with a racist alliance commander trying to get what remains wiped out as well kinda has the effect of making you a bit jaded, and makes you look at things a little less snobbishly. The fact I haven't seen much that indicates wide-scale demonic use in the Azerothian Blood elves aside (Warlocks discounted, those "demonic" crystals have been discounted, they were there long before the high elves died off and the blood elves were "born"), kinda makes me believe they arent as evil as they are said to be. The "evidence" folk use is amusing, oh now, a citizen is "harrassed" by some guards near the entrance, it must be evil!. Along with the sentiment above that the Alliance seems to cliquish, no-one seems to remember the countless factions and examples of evil or bad alliance races. Arthas was a paladin, now hes the Lich king...hmmm, the Satyr didnt just pop out of demonic air, they were night elves. The dark iron dwarves arent noted for being friendly.
 * All in all, blood elves aren't evil, simple as. A Jaded Paladin who has lost faith somewhat, who still fights for the future of his people, is still a paladin. if Tolerance is evil, the western democracy has condemed Europe and North America to hell. :/ --Nurizeko


 * Granted tolerance is a great thing, but you guys got to be careful not to get confused with blind tolerance. The humans in the north suffered a great deal to the scourge/forsaken, more so than any other really, this develops a very natural fear. You guys also seem to forget that the forsaken hates the humans just as much as humans hate them. The alliance actually has shown tolerance, just look at the argent dawn, a group composed of many members from the alliance, who accepted leonid in, an undead. Its just like America accepts people with different views true, but they don't allow murderers to have free rein. Many Forsaken and Blood elves have conducted shady business, only a select few have truly been shown to be good, even Thrall doesn't fully trust them and realizes that they are more concerned with themselves than the actual horde. One major reason Thrall accepts them was the fact that the horde really needed some allies, and both groups act as good deterrents against the alliance. Now I won't say the alliance is morally superior to the horde, I honestly think both are overall good groups, each with their own shares of evil.BaskinRidge 07:51, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Changed description of how WoW horde races were added
Unlike a lot of people, I don't have much of a problem with blood elves and forsaken being in the horde (It works gameplay wise, and makes about as much sense as night elves choosing sides which hasn't been talked about as much.), but it does seem a lot of unneeded contrivance is used to make the new reaces fit.

I personally think that the horce story should simply be one where Thrall agreed to work with the new species as more or less equals, instead of one where Thrall is completely in control of everyone in the horde and agrees to let the blood elves and forsaken in from being a really, really nice person and hoping they redeem themselves. there's a few reasons for this.

1. The horde structure is pretty clearly along those lines already, where Thrall is in charge of the Kalimdor section, while the blood elves/forsaken do their own things in Eastern Kingdoms. (If the Kalimdor horde knew about the plague, there's no question it would be sending an army over to stop the developement, even if just for safety reasons.)

2. It messes up Thrall's character, as described somewhat in other places. In Warcraft 3, Thrall was the character who, more than anyone else, could decide to do something, figure out how to do it, and do it. He did not have a weak decision making process, and did not seem to be bossesd around easily, except possibly for medivh, and even than was given reasons to accept what medivh was saying. With the forsaken and blood elf additions as described now, thrall ends up seeming a much weaker character, who gets influenced easily to do what others suggest.

3. It doesn't fit what happened in warcraft 3. When the trolls joined, Thrall and the orcs didn't go through a process of seeing if the trolls were too much into cannabalism, voodoo, and such, they simply let the trolls join. Similarily, with the Tauren, The orcs and trolls didn't look into taurne culture, go through a long process of checking out who was the 'right" side in the centaur/tauren fighting, they simply helped out the tauren in return for knowing where the oracle was, and that eventually lead to an alliance. The forsaken and blood elves could be pretty easily handled similarily, with Thrall agreeing to help the forsaken and blood elves because they are fighting the scourge, and in return getting some new additions to help his alliance out.Minionman 10:35, 7 May 2007 (EDT)


 * Great, finally someone who gets it. With the exception of parts of number 3, (the trolls joined the Horde because the orcs saved them from Murlocs, and the orcs and tauren had similiar shamistic practices and desires, so an alliance was bound to occur), most of what you say is entirely correct. The Horde on Kalimdor does not know about the plague the Forsaken are making, or the fact that the Blood Elves are ensalving a narru. At least, lore wise they definately arent. Metzen explains this explicitly. Even the Blood Elves on Azeroth dont know that Kael'Thas has sided with the Legion. Thrall was also reluctant to admit the Forsaken and Blood Elves into the Horde, and neither side trusts each other. That is why the Forsaken and Blood Elves start off Neutral with Orcs, Tauren, and Darkspear Trolls, but friendly with each other. And vice versa. Eman91 02:15, 23 February 2008 (UTC)Eman91

The Cold War
Two world powers with different ideologies, keeping an uneasy official peace under the threat of a war too devastating to contemplate, but testing each other through the medium of espionage, satellite states and brushfire wars, whilst both promulgate propaganda about the other. Note any similarities? :D Coming Second 18:01, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

No. The factions aren't keeping each other in check with the threat of war, they just realize that they have other priorities. The conflicts that do happen tend to be isolated incidents, not part of a bigger conflict. Most of the faction leaders want peace between each other, but know that they can't force their people to get along. There are also numerous examples in lore of the factions either getting along or being passive about each other. I imagine other users can go in more detail as to why it's not a valid comparison. --Austin P 21:34, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


 * There are similarities to the Cold War. The factions are keeping track of each other. Stormwind's Spy Agency keeps track of Forsaken activities. Darnassian spies have been found in Eversong Forest. Alliance spy on that Forsaken guy in Arathi. Similar in a sense to CIA activities. On the otherhand, the Warsong incursion in Ashenvale and Forsaken claiming Arathi is similar to the way USSR claimed Eastern Europe. (It doesn't help that the Alliance is Blue ala NATO and the Horde is Red ala Communist)There are parallels between Warcraft and the Cold War but Warcraft is more compliacted with outside factions being common enemies to the 2 Superpowers like the Legion or the Scourge. --Invin Dranoel 10:34, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Enemies keeping track of each other is timeless. There's more espionage now than there was during the cold war. --Austin P 23:34, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Similarity perhaps to Horde Relations? Orcs + Tauren + Trolls on one side, Forsaken + Blood Elves on the other? Dsarker (talk) 06:58, 10 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Ya, the Horde is watching other Horde and the Alliance on Kalimidor and the Eastern Kingdoms are probably watching each other too. LOL Rolandius [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] ( talk -  contr ) 07:20, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Faction Leader Power
Is it just me, or does it seem like the most powerful Horde Characters fall desperately short of their Alliance counterparts? The Alliance has Velen, who is Kil'jaeden's archrival, is best friends with the Naaru, has the soulstone, which sends his powers through the roof, was an accompished mage before meeting the Naaru and is now pumped so full of holy magic hes about to explode AND Malfurion, who beat Archimonde like he stole something in the War of the Ancients. Meanwhile, the Horde has Thrall who got owned by Mannoroth putting him way behind Velen and Malfurion and his second would be Vol'jin or Sylvanas, while Lor'themr Theron can barely do magic and Cairne can't do any at all. Why are our faction leaders weaker? Lckyluke372 04:54, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I have to disagree. While Velen certainly is probably the most awe-inspiring and most revered leader amongst his own people, i think you have mistaken leadership for actual strenght and are overestimating his true power. Theres no doubt he is one of the most talented mortal reciprocants of the Light, but he is not Kil'jaeden's equal. Kil'jaeden has been getting pumped full of arcane energies for countless millenia. They may have started out as equals but that ended long ago on Argus after kil'jaeden took Sargeras' offer of more power. As for Malfurion, powerful most definetly yes, but it's premature to call him an alliance hero. Malfurion is the true leader of the Cenarion Circle, and only the spiritual leader of the Night Elves. Last time he was in a position of influence the Night Elves and the Cenarion Cirlce were nearly one and the same and the NE called Nighthaven home. Darnassus, Teldrassil, and joining the Alliance were all because of Fandral. Malfurion can best be considered a Neutral hero, definetly leaning towards the alliance (loyalties to his own people) but a hero both sides can admire and respect.


 * And i'd argue Alliance heros are lacking. Metzen even said it during Blizzcon. Horde has some great respectible leaders who have demonstrated their valor and proven themselves. Thrall is....words can't describe what he's done. the word hero falls terribly short of what Thrall is. Cairne is wise and a great moral being, and also a highly skilled warrior. Sylvannas is strong, desicive, and powerful. You may not like her and she could be considered evil but one should certainly respect her. Vol'jin...eh i'll give you that. And Lothemar and Hauldron may not compare to these others but they were heros of the second war and have a bit of back story behind themselves. More than most alliance heros (Bolvar, Marcus, Benedictus, etc...). Nearly every horde race has someone thay can be proud of to shout their name charging into battle, alliance does not. Alliance has Magni and Tyrandde. Jaina is also a incredible leader but her age and gender keeps her from being taken seriosuly by stormwind's nobles and other old alliance leaders, and that image isn;t helped bt the fact she isn't exactly the most forceful person around (She's strong that much is clear to us but she appears to be seen differently by the inhabitants of Azeroth). Fandral's a jerk (though i sympathize about his son...to an extent), Bolvar's a nobody as is Marcus Jonathon, and Benedictus. Geblin is little more than comic relief (and not even good comic relief). Varian Wyrnn is missing and Tirion is atm excommunicated (Soon to change :) ). Dalaran at the moment is also rebuilding (though Rhonins coming). Woltk is rectifying a few of these things, as is the new comic book.Warthok 06:06, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Hey, I think if you look at what little of Vol'jin we know he's really cool, plus as a shadow hunter and one of the most pwerful ones at that hes definitely tough, look at his recently overhauled page (thanks to myself) as well as the Shadow Hunter page and you might see how much of an untapped gold mine Blizzard has at their disposal here. Lckyluke372 06:14, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I think your right. We haven;t seen as much of him but he was in the WC3x Orc campaign and turning Rexxar, Rokhan and Chen into Wyverns i'm sure isn't something any Witch Doctor can do. P.S. Just realized this should probvably be in the discussion page Talk:Horde/Analysis otherwise were about to be reminded this is not a forum. Warthok 06:21, 15 October 2007 (UTC)